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15:54 < ariard> roasbeef: on revoked-input aggregation ? Not a descendant-limit pinning, just a low-feerate/absolute fee one, if you aggregate claiming revoked `to_local`/htlc outputs in one justice tx, the cheating party may have propagate first a junk 2nd-stage tx thanks to sighash_single
15:55 < ariard> thus your honest justice tx will be rejected and the revoked `to_local` might not be claimed before CSV expiration
15:56 < ariard> though it's not an issue for the revoked outputs on HTLC txn as your cheating counterparty doesn't have a way to spend them during the contest delay
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16:35 <+roasbeef> ariard: yeh chatted w/ johan and he explained it a bit more, so yeh seems sweep your to_local first, then get ready to do scorched earth if they try anything weird w/ the 2nd stage stuff 
16:35 <+roasbeef> yep, even if they get their "junk transactions" confirmed, they'd pay fees for those, then still need to wait for the csv delay to sweep out those htlcs outputs 
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17:07 < ariard> roasbeef: scorched earth sounds a good deterrance even if in practice the cheater can't escape the HTLC-punishement
17:07 <+roasbeef> yeh, as you as the defender actually gain some "ammo" as a result of the revocation system 
17:08 <+roasbeef> they'll basically pay for your confirmation 
17:08 < ariard> I'll amend the spec to make it mandatory to claim a revoked `to_local` disjunctively from htlc-outputs to limit any funny game
17:09 <+roasbeef> sgtm 
17:09 < ariard> hmmm I'm a bit skeptic about this analysis, you can't consider that burning feerate is "ammo" as in fact
17:09 < ariard> the revoked balance might have been all on your side
17:10 <+roasbeef> well your ammo is their entire balance, as in they wouldn't even try to breach if they didn't have funds at w/e state 
17:10 <+roasbeef> not sure what you mean all on your side, why are they doing this if they don't have any coins in that stae? 
17:10 < ariard> so a counterparty, knowing your reaction mechanism, might force you to burn more of your legit balance than he will loose in punishment
17:10 <+roasbeef> just to annoy you? lol 
17:10 <+roasbeef> assume for simplicity, that ppl just don't even try to recoup, and just burn all their funds on state one 
17:10 < ariard> we should bound case where I might force you to loose more than I will loose myself
17:10 <+roasbeef> we're made whole, they gain nothing 
17:10 <+roasbeef> how's that possilby? 
17:11 < ariard> legit state is 1 BTC, cheater is broadcasting revoked balance giving him back 0.5 BTC
17:11 <+roasbeef> you gain nothing, and then also pay for my fees 
17:11 <+roasbeef> ok...I put 0.4 btc to fees, collect 0.1 
17:11 < ariard> you try to burn the 0.5 BTC in feerate, you punish the remaining 0.5 BTC
17:11 <+roasbeef> the "remaining" goes directly to me 
17:11 <+roasbeef> so it's just 0.5 in contest her
17:11 <+roasbeef> e
17:11 < ariard> but you still loose 0.5 BTC from the original legit state no?
17:12 < ariard> legit state is 1 BTC balance on Alice-side
17:12 <+roasbeef> I guess it depends on who put in those coins? 
17:12 <+roasbeef> mhmm, so there's some slight griefing, but again they don't gain anything at all 
17:12 < ariard> no it's really about the state of the off-chain balnce
17:12 <+roasbeef> yeh yeh
17:12 < ariard> I agree they don't "gain"
17:13 <+roasbeef> personally I tend to worry more about situations where they gain, as somtimes griefing is just like an annoyance vector at smaller amts
17:13 < ariard> but we should be careful with scortch earth to avoid a honest party burning more than the cheating woud be punished off
17:13 <+roasbeef> and if you're trying to do srs biz in this space, there're clear targets to actually gain 
17:13 <+roasbeef> mhmm, so minimally, use it to pay for your chain fees 
17:13 <+roasbeef> good insight
17:13 < ariard> I agree gain > griefing, but you want to be trustworthy there
17:14 < ariard> it's more a bad publicity vector if someone tried it to demonstrate LN untrustworthiness
17:15 <+roasbeef> sure if they want to go thru all that do gain nothing lol, also there're still a few hoops that need to line up properly, it isn't just like an if this then that gain, if this and that and this and also this particular climate, etc 
17:16 <+roasbeef> and there's an upfront cost for them to even attempt to play the second levels
17:16 <+roasbeef> since those needs to be confirmed on-chain 
17:16 < ariard> ssure you have to open channel, re-balance channel right, expect mempool-congestion, but that could be an interesting topic of research game-theoritic secure fee bumpers
17:17 < ariard> like aiming for some kind of griefing equilibrium
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--- Log closed Thu Oct 01 00:00:34 2020