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10:30 < ghost43_> does the lnd watchtower (or other production watchtower code) sweep HTLCs?
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10:32 < ghost43_> with option_anchor_outputs enabled, is it possible for a watchtower to sweep the output of an HTLC-Timeout/HTLC-Success tx? without sighash noinput I mean. The sighash flags seem problematic -- the txid of the HTLC-Timeout/HTLC-Success tx cannot be predicted, so I don't see how a penalty tx for it could be pre-signed.
10:45 < ghost43_> AFAICT looking at the lnd code, their watchtowers are not sweeping HTLCs
10:45 < ghost43_> so my question then is, has anyone thought about this not even being possible with anchor outputs?
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10:58 < ariard> ghost43_: you mean punishing HTLCs txn revoked outputs with pre-signed, delegated txn? Good point, I didn't think about this one
10:59 < ghost43_> yes, I mean reacting to an HTLC-Timeout/Success within the CSV
10:59 < ghost43_> as a watchtower, so without having the revocation key
11:01 < ghost43_> electrum currently has a watchtower implementation that also sweeps these outputs. I've just realised that I can't adapt it to anchor outputs however, as the client cannot create the signatures in advance anymore
11:02 < ghost43_> I guess as the lnd watchtower never implemented this
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11:36 < ariard> you can still delegate the revocation key to the watchtower and let their adapt the justice tx
11:36 < ariard> though now you're trusting them to not burn the whole HTLC output whimsicallly
11:39 < ariard> I think you can provide pre-signed txn to your watchtower with a secondary input ANYONECANPAY
11:40 < ariard> committing to the justice tx output, like a kind of chaperon signature ?
11:42 < ariard> nah doesn't work a watchtower can do whatever they want with knowledge of the revocation key, sigh
11:46 < ghost43_> right, you cannot give out the key
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12:46 <+roasbeef> ghost43_: it's possible as is now, it just ends up being a slight bit more state, since you send sigs for all the htlcs in each state as well 
12:46 <+roasbeef> you also need to send sigs for both the first and secodn level revocation clauses as well 
12:46 < ghost43_> but how do you send sigs for the second level output?
12:46 <+roasbeef> idea behind our limited impl, is that chans should be set s.t you can never have a very largre amount outsanding in htlcs anyway 
12:46 < ghost43_> you can't predict the txid
12:46 <+roasbeef> we're looking at picking tower stuff up soon again here 
12:47 <+roasbeef> what do you mean? it's all stable 
12:47 <+roasbeef> something something segwit 
12:47 <+roasbeef> or you mean if they attach extra inputs+outputs to it? 
12:47 <+roasbeef> post anchors? 
12:47 < ghost43_> yes post anchors
12:47 < ghost43_> "if option_anchor_outputs applies to this commitment transaction, SIGHASH_SINGLE|SIGHASH_ANYONECANPAY is used"
12:48 < ghost43_> you can't predict the txid for HTLC-Timeout and HTLC-Success txs
12:49 < ghost43_> I know it is possible pre-option_anchor_outputs as I had implemented it a while back
12:49 < ghost43_> you would need sighash_noinput I suppose
12:49 <+roasbeef> it really wants no input, but in absence of that same thing above about limiting the total amt in htlcs, which is recommended for a buncha other reasons as well 
12:50 <+roasbeef> interative protocols are ofc also possible but that assumes a slighlty diff set up 
12:50 < ghost43_> even with noinput note that the second stage outputs reuse addresses
12:50 < ghost43_> so care must be taken
12:51 <+roasbeef> only within a particular channels' context tho 
12:51 <+roasbeef> and when something like this happens, that channel is gone 
12:54 < ghost43_> idk, it greatly limits the utility of the channel if only a small part of it can be used for htlcs at any given time
12:54 <+roasbeef> not really
12:54 <+roasbeef> do you really want 90% your channel suspended in htlcs? 
12:54 < ghost43_> if the user has a 500 usd channel, they expect to be able to buy a 200 usd product
12:55 <+roasbeef> they can if they want to, there're just tradeoffs involved 
12:55 <+roasbeef> that user prob also isn't really concerned about some breach depending on who they have chans w/ as well 
12:56 < ghost43_> so now users should only open channels with trusted parties?
12:56 <+roasbeef> nope that's not what I'm saying 
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12:56 <+roasbeef> I just mean we write a bunch of deterrence code, which is rarely ever executed 
12:57 <+roasbeef> and some targets are more high risk than others 
12:57 <+roasbeef> very conservative users can set higher csv values as well, but ofc there're treadeoffs there too 
12:57 <+roasbeef> you could say ok if my phone blows up, I assume I can get another one within 1 month 
12:58 <+roasbeef> but also it's a mobile hot wallet usually, so you generally should just treat it was funds in your wallet (minimal) 
12:58 < ghost43_> in any case, my point is that this is a regression in option_anchor_outputs
12:58 <+roasbeef> it's a tradeoff, it makes other trade offs as well 
12:58 <+roasbeef> w/o anchors, the user may never be able to even get a commitment transaction confirmed in the chain aassuming they low balled too much on fee estimation 
12:59 < ghost43_> sure, tradeoffs are fine. but has it been pointed out before in public? I know I have not read about it.
13:00 <+roasbeef> yeh pretty sure on the ML, but also most ppl these days just run their own towers, and fwiw even many mobile apps don't have one hooked up 
13:00 <+roasbeef> I guess it's also one of those things that's "clear" if you know how things work 
13:01 <+roasbeef> also in your example above, the channel peer is what limits the user's ability to have N outsanding htlcs or K total in sats 
13:01 <+roasbeef> so a user could even just open up a channel like that and not know it, if their software doesn't enforce certain defaults or desired params 
13:02 < ghost43_> yes fine, it was just an example. we could switch the direction and have them get paid instead :)
13:03 < ghost43_> so what is the default for max_htlc_value_in_flight_msat in lnd, in relation to the capacity?
13:07 < ghost43_> https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/blob/10a84f2c75c9de958c9dd07de830f0546a43d05a/server.go#L1155-L1160
13:07 < ghost43_> so is it 100% ?
13:08 < ghost43_> because then the utility of the watchtower that cannot handle an htlc during breach is questionable.
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16:01 <+roasbeef> ghost43_: no, it's based on the excess after the reserve is calc'd, also not that tere're two values the max oustanding and the number of htlcs 
16:01 <+roasbeef> my comment above was just meant to demonstrate that during the funding process, it's the other party that decides how much of the available bandwidth you can use on their commitments  
16:03 <+roasbeef> ghost43_: it's a tradeoff at the end of the day, as really its your chanenl peer that controls how much of the channel you can actually use, they could send you a 60% reserve if they wanted and your software would need to either detect or handle that 
16:06 <+roasbeef> also in teh routed setting, payments need to mind the max_htlc value as well, and assuming widespread-ish mpp support htlcs may start to tend on the smaller side as a result
16:06 <+roasbeef> you as a routing node also likely don't want to let a random htlc take 90% of your payment bandwidth as well due to the opportunity cost 
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