--- Log opened Mon Nov 30 00:00:31 2020 00:13 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #lightning-dev 00:19 -!- Pavlenex [~Thunderbi@178.220.103.52] has joined #lightning-dev 01:00 -!- riclas [riclas@77.7.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lightning-dev 01:20 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #lightning-dev 01:24 -!- reallll is now known as belcher 01:29 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:40 -!- jeremyrubin [~jr@c-73-15-215-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:41 -!- gleb [~gleb@178.150.137.228] has quit [Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)] 01:41 -!- gleb [~gleb@178.150.137.228] has joined #lightning-dev 02:00 -!- yeahIamblond [5ecf705c@94.207.112.92] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:01 -!- GCoders [~Jenny@94.207.112.92] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:02 -!- GCoders [~Jenny@83-82-235-156.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl] has joined #lightning-dev 02:03 -!- da39a3ee5e6b4b0d [~da39a3ee5@171.5.161.165] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 02:08 -!- sr_gi [~sr_gi@80.174.218.168.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:08 -!- sr_gi [~sr_gi@80.174.218.168.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lightning-dev 02:43 -!- Pavlenex1 [~Thunderbi@141.98.103.251] has joined #lightning-dev 02:46 -!- Pavlenex [~Thunderbi@178.220.103.52] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:46 -!- Pavlenex1 is now known as Pavlenex 03:22 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #lightning-dev 03:27 -!- sh_smith [~sh_smith@cpe-172-88-21-24.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:21 -!- firedragon [~firedrago@92.40.170.72.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:22 -!- sh_smith [~sh_smith@cpe-172-88-21-24.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lightning-dev 04:27 -!- da39a3ee5e6b4b0d [~da39a3ee5@171.5.161.165] has joined #lightning-dev 04:42 < harding> gleb: I may be wrong, but to nitpick your recent post, I don't think an attacker can lock up 100:1 capital with a loop attack because BOLT4 limits the maximum size of an onion. Last I heard, the onion is large enough to currently allow up to 26 hops[1], so I think the worst case would be 25:1 capital lock up. Obviously that doesn't materially affect the concern. [1] https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lightning-rfc/pull/617# 04:42 < harding> issuecomment-507894241 04:54 -!- eugene-ff [~eugene_ff@2604:2000:1383:472b:a0ea:5202:fc81:f7d7] has joined #lightning-dev 05:07 -!- eugene-ff [~eugene_ff@2604:2000:1383:472b:a0ea:5202:fc81:f7d7] has left #lightning-dev [] 05:07 -!- eugene-ff [~eugene_ff@2604:2000:1383:472b:a0ea:5202:fc81:f7d7] has joined #lightning-dev 05:07 -!- eugene-ff [~eugene_ff@2604:2000:1383:472b:a0ea:5202:fc81:f7d7] has quit [] 05:09 -!- eugene-ff [~eugene_ff@2604:2000:1383:472b:a0ea:5202:fc81:f7d7] has joined #lightning-dev 05:12 -!- eugene-ff [~eugene_ff@2604:2000:1383:472b:a0ea:5202:fc81:f7d7] has quit [Client Quit] 05:13 -!- kloinka_ [~quassel@223.177.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:13 -!- kloinka [~quassel@223.177.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has joined #lightning-dev 05:18 -!- da39a3ee5e6b4b0d [~da39a3ee5@171.5.161.165] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 05:22 < lndbot> Capital-lock up is a problem for sure, but it should be possible to mitigate minimum-sized HTLCs flooding a commitment transaction without any changes to the protocol. If I chop up my 483 HTLCs into distinct tranches, some % of the channel reserved for min-sized HTLCs, some % for larger HTLCs, and so on. Then if those minimum-sized slots are filled up and a forward attempt is made over my channel, I can just reject it. That way the rest of 05:22 < lndbot> still available for use albeit only for HTLC's of a different size though. 05:28 < harding> eugene: I think the concern in this case is an attacker who controls roughly the same amount of funds you control, allowing him to split his funds into whatever amounts you'll accept, and then also relaying that jamming payment through a couple dozen other nodes, locking up 25 BTC for every 1 BTC the attacker has, at no direct cost to the attacker (only the indirect cost of whatever interest rate he could earn by using that money 05:28 < harding> productively). 05:35 -!- vasild_ [~vd@gateway/tor-sasl/vasild] has joined #lightning-dev 05:38 -!- vasild [~vd@gateway/tor-sasl/vasild] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:38 -!- vasild_ is now known as vasild 05:39 -!- kloinka [~quassel@223.177.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 05:41 -!- kloinka [~quassel@223.177.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has joined #lightning-dev 05:49 < lndbot> Yeah I understand that vector - don't know how to handle that one. But the forwarding policy outlined above would raise the capital requirement of jamming from minimum-sized HTLC's to actual capacity-jamming 05:50 -!- da39a3ee5e6b4b0d [~da39a3ee5@171.5.161.165] has joined #lightning-dev 05:57 < harding> eugene: but if the slots for low-value payments can still be easily jammed, that makes LN unsuitable for routing small payments. I think people are interested in finding a solution that still allows low-value payments. 05:57 -!- vasild [~vd@gateway/tor-sasl/vasild] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:03 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:03 -!- vasild [~vd@gateway/tor-sasl/vasild] has joined #lightning-dev 06:10 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:18 -!- __gotcha [~Thunderbi@plone/gotcha] has joined #lightning-dev 06:18 -!- sr_gi [~sr_gi@80.174.218.168.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:19 -!- sr_gi [~sr_gi@80.174.218.168.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lightning-dev 06:32 < lndbot> That's the tradeoff yeah 06:41 -!- __gotcha [~Thunderbi@plone/gotcha] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:00 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #lightning-dev 07:03 -!- da39a3ee5e6b4b0d [~da39a3ee5@171.5.161.165] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 07:07 -!- queip is now known as CobraKai 07:07 -!- CobraKai is now known as queip 07:08 -!- gribble [~gribble@unaffiliated/nanotube/bot/gribble] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:14 -!- gribble [~gribble@unaffiliated/nanotube/bot/gribble] has joined #lightning-dev 07:33 -!- kexkey [~kexkey@static-198-54-132-105.cust.tzulo.com] has joined #lightning-dev 07:59 -!- queip [~queip@unaffiliated/rezurus] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:03 -!- Pavlenex [~Thunderbi@141.98.103.251] has quit [Quit: Pavlenex] 08:06 < gleb> harding: Thanks, I wasn't aware of this restriction :) 08:09 -!- Pavlenex [~Thunderbi@141.98.103.251] has joined #lightning-dev 08:10 -!- vtnerd [~vtnerd@50-81-138-206.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:12 -!- vtnerd [~vtnerd@50-81-138-206.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lightning-dev 08:15 -!- vasild [~vd@gateway/tor-sasl/vasild] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:26 -!- jeremyrubin [~jr@c-73-15-215-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lightning-dev 08:28 -!- queip [~queip@unaffiliated/rezurus] has joined #lightning-dev 08:37 -!- Pavlenex [~Thunderbi@141.98.103.251] has quit [Quit: Pavlenex] 08:45 -!- vasild [~vd@gateway/tor-sasl/vasild] has joined #lightning-dev 08:59 -!- Pavlenex [~Thunderbi@141.98.103.251] has joined #lightning-dev 09:10 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [] 09:45 -!- vasild [~vd@gateway/tor-sasl/vasild] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:47 -!- molz_ [~mol@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:48 -!- vasild [~vd@gateway/tor-sasl/vasild] has joined #lightning-dev 09:58 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:01 < harding> I was looking at some LND code, and I found it confusing that it calls BOLT4 payment secrets by the name "payment addresses". In addition to the confusing difference in terms between spec and implementation, it also seems to me that "payment address" has the same problem as "Bitcoin address" in that "address" implies it can be reused for accepting different payments (like a mailing address can be reused), but reusing a payment 10:01 < harding> secret with different spenders reduces your resistance to probing in a somewhat similar way to how reusing a Bitcoin address reduces your privacy to transaction graph analysis. I just wanted to mention that this was a source of confusion to me; I don't think it's a big deal. 10:02 -!- mol [~mol@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #lightning-dev 10:02 -!- Pavlenex [~Thunderbi@141.98.103.251] has quit [Quit: Pavlenex] 10:04 < lndbot> You could say that calling it a payment secret implies that other people won’t learn it but payment requests are pretty public 10:14 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:15 < harding> Sure, some people tweet their invoices, but don't many people distribute them privately (e.g. via a shoping cart on an HTTPS website)? In any case, I'm not arguing that "payment secrets" is the best term, just that it's the term in the spec and that (having read the spec first) "payment addresses" confused me personally a bit when I first encountered it. 10:16 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has joined #lightning-dev 10:17 -!- proofofkeags [~proofofke@c-73-34-43-4.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lightning-dev 10:18 -!- user___ [~user@mail.deeplinkmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:19 < lndbot> I don’t think there is a great name for it, in my code I just label it `payment` 10:21 < lndbot> In my code the secret part of a payment is the preimage 10:22 < lndbot> Expiry is also confusing because people take it to mean that the payment resolution is guaranteed by that date when it is in fact governed by CLTV 10:22 < harding> Hmm. I guess I'm more confused that I thought; I'm talking about the aditional secret added to prevent probing with multipath payments. 10:23 < lndbot> I just mean I already have a “payment secret” in my code, so the name collides with something I was already using 10:24 < harding> Ah. 10:39 -!- sh_smith [~sh_smith@cpe-172-88-21-24.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:44 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #lightning-dev 10:45 -!- sh_smith [~sh_smith@cpe-172-88-21-24.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lightning-dev 10:46 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:48 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has joined #lightning-dev 10:52 -!- GCoders [~Jenny@83-82-235-156.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:08 -!- __gotcha [~Thunderbi@plone/gotcha] has joined #lightning-dev 11:27 -!- deusexbeer [~deusexbee@079-170-139-216-dynamic-pool-adsl.wbt.ru] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 11:31 -!- __gotcha [~Thunderbi@plone/gotcha] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:53 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #lightning-dev 12:15 -!- user____ [~user@mail.deeplinkmedia.com] has joined #lightning-dev 12:26 -!- sh_smith [~sh_smith@cpe-172-88-21-24.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:29 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #lightning-dev 12:31 -!- sh_smith [~sh_smith@cpe-172-88-21-24.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lightning-dev 12:37 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:38 -!- __gotcha [~Thunderbi@plone/gotcha] has joined #lightning-dev 12:47 -!- vtnerd [~vtnerd@50-81-138-206.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 2.9] 12:49 -!- vtnerd [~vtnerd@50-81-138-206.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lightning-dev 13:24 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:32 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #lightning-dev 13:35 -!- vasild [~vd@gateway/tor-sasl/vasild] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:40 -!- vasild [~vd@gateway/tor-sasl/vasild] has joined #lightning-dev 13:49 -!- shesek [~shesek@164.90.217.137] has joined #lightning-dev 13:49 -!- shesek [~shesek@164.90.217.137] has quit [Changing host] 13:49 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has joined #lightning-dev 14:28 -!- firedragon [~firedrago@92.40.172.17.threembb.co.uk] has joined #lightning-dev 14:37 -!- Pavlenex [~Thunderbi@141.98.103.251] has joined #lightning-dev 14:37 -!- Pavlenex [~Thunderbi@141.98.103.251] has quit [Client Quit] 14:38 -!- sr_gi [~sr_gi@80.174.218.168.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:39 -!- sr_gi [~sr_gi@80.174.218.168.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lightning-dev 14:44 -!- vasild_ [~vd@gateway/tor-sasl/vasild] has joined #lightning-dev 14:45 -!- vasild [~vd@gateway/tor-sasl/vasild] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:45 -!- vasild_ is now known as vasild 14:53 -!- firedragon [~firedrago@92.40.172.17.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:10 -!- __gotcha [~Thunderbi@plone/gotcha] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:11 -!- bitromortac [~admin@gateway/tor-sasl/bitromortac] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:11 -!- cryptosoap [~cryptosoa@gateway/tor-sasl/cryptosoap] has quit [Quit: %bye%] 15:11 -!- th0th [~th0th@gateway/tor-sasl/th0th] has quit [Write error: Connection reset by peer] 15:12 -!- bitromortac [~admin@gateway/tor-sasl/bitromortac] has joined #lightning-dev 15:12 -!- cryptosoap [~cryptosoa@gateway/tor-sasl/cryptosoap] has joined #lightning-dev 15:12 -!- th0th [~th0th@gateway/tor-sasl/th0th] has joined #lightning-dev 15:24 -!- mol_ [~mol@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #lightning-dev 15:28 -!- mol [~mol@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:35 -!- mol_ [~mol@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:42 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:43 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #lightning-dev 15:47 -!- mol [~mol@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #lightning-dev 16:08 -!- bitromortac_ [~admin@gateway/tor-sasl/bitromortac] has joined #lightning-dev 16:09 -!- bitromortac [~admin@gateway/tor-sasl/bitromortac] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:00 -!- riclas [riclas@77.7.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:06 -!- mol [~mol@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:13 -!- da39a3ee5e6b4b0d [~da39a3ee5@mx-ll-171.5.161-165.dynamic.3bb.co.th] has joined #lightning-dev 17:18 -!- proofofkeags [~proofofke@c-73-34-43-4.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:27 -!- reallll [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #lightning-dev 17:30 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:35 -!- cameron[m] [cameronots@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-dulqbwrrvxpfknlj] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:39 -!- ghost43_ [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:39 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has joined #lightning-dev 17:42 -!- cameron[m] [cameronots@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-fwporzuazjvgeoxc] has joined #lightning-dev 17:48 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:01 -!- jesseposner [~jp@2601:643:8980:bfd2:f040:ed44:8391:19d3] has joined #lightning-dev 18:16 -!- bitromortac [~admin@gateway/tor-sasl/bitromortac] has joined #lightning-dev 18:18 -!- bitromortac_ [~admin@gateway/tor-sasl/bitromortac] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:29 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #lightning-dev 18:32 -!- proofofkeags [~proofofke@174-16-212-53.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lightning-dev 18:33 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:42 -!- mol [~mol@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #lightning-dev 20:03 -!- llfourn [~user@42.62.218.49] has joined #lightning-dev 20:05 -!- yzernik [~yzernik@c-98-35-199-125.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lightning-dev 20:30 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #lightning-dev 20:32 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:03 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:06 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #lightning-dev 21:12 -!- jonatack [~jon@82.102.27.171] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:15 -!- jonatack [~jon@88.124.242.136] has joined #lightning-dev 21:18 -!- GCoders [~Jenny@83-82-235-156.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl] has joined #lightning-dev 21:23 -!- GCoders [~Jenny@83-82-235-156.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:49 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:55 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #lightning-dev 22:57 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:59 -!- sr_gi [~sr_gi@80.174.218.168.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:00 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #lightning-dev 23:00 -!- sr_gi [~sr_gi@80.174.218.168.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lightning-dev 23:00 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #lightning-dev 23:01 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Client Quit] 23:08 -!- llfourn [~user@42.62.218.49] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:33 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #lightning-dev 23:33 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] --- Log closed Tue Dec 01 00:00:32 2020