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08:55 < harding> ariard: re: https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-May/018924.html it's my understanding that LND 0.12 doesn't have anchor outputs by default (it was planned for that release but made non-default at the last minute due to concerns about maintaining immediately-spendable onchain UTXOs for use with CPFPs).  The LND dev team has improved that workflow over the past few months and recently put out a call for feedback from users/
08:55 < harding> merchants to see if there were any unaddressed problems before they make anchors the default in 0.13-beta https://groups.google.com/a/lightning.engineering/g/lnd/c/OuC56qq6IaY
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10:17 < ariard> harding: thanks for the information, I did look on their releases announcements https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/releases, iirc it was announced for first candidates
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10:18 < ariard> i know there is a bunch of challenges about maintaining warm-bumping-utxos,what you should do if congestion start to spike and your HTLCs exposure start at the same time?
10:19 < ariard> ideally you may have to tight both of them to avoid HTLC exposure across all your channels to avoid really bad go-to-chain scenarios
10:19 < harding> ariard: yeah, they actually had it in the final release note for 0.12-beta; I actually reported it here and I think the notes were updated on GitHub.
10:20 < ariard> harding: note also that the rbf thing have been flagged independently by pinheadmz and reported here when he was implementing for bcoin https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/88813/is-inherited-replace-by-fee-signaling-implemented-as-described-in-bip125/
10:20 < harding> ariard: if you pay a high enough fee on one close transaction to get it confirmed quickly, you may be able to use the funds from that to pay for other channel closures, e.g. domino effect.
10:21 < harding> ariard: oh, wow!
10:31 < ariard> harding: yes i know you can have a smart onchain logic reducing your exposure by converting your offchain liqudity to onchain fee-bumping ones
10:31 < ariard> but a) what if every LN operators do the same, moar mempool congestions b) what if your channel counterparties start to collude by pinning closing?
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10:35 < harding> ariard: I don't think (a) is a problem: all the channels you want to close are already in a contested state, so you need to settle them no matter what.  Settling them sequentially doesn't create any more congestion than settling them in parallel (mostly, I guess you can't take advantage of HTLC settlement batching in sequential closing).
10:36 < harding> For (b) you already have the other problems with pinning, so I'm not sure adding more problems really makes things worse?
10:37 < harding> I mean, if a tx is pinned, then even if you have 21 million BTC to spend on fees, it's still going to be stuck.
10:42 < ariard> harding: do we agree on (a) definition? I'm thinking the case holistically like 20% of the network closing 5% of their channels in reaction to mempool congestion? HTLC-timeout are 666 wu, if a lot of those channels have in-flight HTLCs
10:43 < ariard> that's really quickly few block cloakes
10:43 < ariard> *cloaked
10:43 < ariard> harding: right for (b) assuming we have pinning solved, that's a separate concern, though a counterparty can still force you in a feerate race by broadcasting its own commitment
10:44 < ariard> and thus diminishing your overall fee-bumping reserve
10:49 < harding> ariard: I think we agree on definitions.  There's the closing swarm problem noted in the original LN paper where too many channels closing at once means there isn't enough block space for all settlement transactions to confirm in time, thus causing each channel to spend its full value (minus 1 sat) on fees because getting 1 sat is better than getting no sats.  But I don't think that matters here: as long as you have enough fee reserve to finalize 
10:49 < harding> the close for one of your commitments / HTLCs, the funds you receive from that can be used to finalize your next commitment / HTLC.
10:58 < ariard> harding: yes we agree the timestop flag thing iirc, do "domino" bumping work well if your chain of unconfirmed transactions hit mempools limits? assuming good-enough feerate, you might be limited to close 12 channels (commitment+CPFP) per-block
10:59 < ariard> so if you go onchain 6 blocks before timeout, and you have more than 12*6 channels, you might not be able to fee-bump the 73th one?
10:59 < ariard> if every LN implementation implement preventive, domino bumping, I'm concerned that it makes the closing swarm problem far more likely
11:01 < ariard> i'll do a ml write-up on this to match out numbers :)
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11:12 < harding> 12 channels per block if the amount you get per closed channel is just enough to close the next channel.  If you close a channel with 100x the amount you need, you can split that into 100 UTXOs that get confirmed and then you can close 1200 channels in the next block.
11:13 < harding> So it's dominos with a fan out effect.
11:23 < ariard> Yep fan out is a good idea! Though you might divide available bumping liquidity so much that your lower odds of confirmation of all your 1200 channels instead of focusing on the subset with the highest-value HTLC to timeout?
11:23 < harding> Also, if you have a single confirmed UTXO, you can maybe do a coinswap with someone with 100 UTXOs where they CPFP 100 txes for you in exchange for them receiving your single UTXO, all to confirm in the next block.  That gets you around the package limit completely, although it does require you find a coinswap provider who isn't in collusion with your channel counterparties.
11:23 < ariard> So intuitevely you shouldn't fan-out equal value but rather feerate in function of HTLC-at-stake?
11:24 < harding> Yeah, that fan out strategy makes sense.
11:24 < ariard> Buying emergency bumping liquidity is clearly a solution but different trust model for sure
11:25 < ariard> Coinswap federation with threshold for the win
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16:09 < lnd-bot> [lightning-rfc] Roasbeef opened pull request #872: BOLT-03: make sats portion of HTLC CLTV tie-breaker more explicit (master...explicit-cltv-tiebreaker) https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lightning-rfc/pull/872
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18:56 < lndbot> <max092> i know this isn’t super helpful but on a self-compiled version from git (*LND 0.13.0-beta.rc2 commit=healthcheck/v1.0.0-5-g1868c7de-dirty) im getting a segfault every time i run `lndmanage report` which im assuming just does a bunch of grpc calls*
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19:04 < lndbot> <max092> also not sure if the relay goes from slack to irc so if this is actually showing up please let me know
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19:19 < lndbot> <moli> @max092 it's better to ask in channel beginner-questions because this channel isn't for LND tech support
19:20 < lndbot> <max092> don’t need tech support. just wanted to let people know that some grpc call is causing an lnd segfault in 0.13 rc1
19:21 < lndbot> <moli> then tell them in beginner-questions or dev-help
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--- Log closed Sat May 15 00:00:55 2021