--- Log opened Mon Nov 22 00:00:39 2021
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10:58 < cdecker[m]> Good evening everyone 😀
10:59 < vincenzopalazzo> Hello world :) 
10:59 < t-bast> Hey everyone!
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11:00 < devrandom> Hi
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11:01 < t-bast> I prepared a (late) agenda here: https://github.com/lightning/bolts/issues/936
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11:02 < t-bast> Ordering should be re-worked depending on what the chair finds most interesting
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11:02 < t-bast> I spent last night on the plane back from El Salvador, so I'm not sharp enough to chair tonight xD
11:02 < rusty> Are we doing the video thing  this week BTW?
11:02 < t-bast> I added a video link if you want, yes
11:02 < BlueMatt> i believe folkson's offer to do transcripts starts next meeting, sadly
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11:03 < t-bast> for this one we should keep IRC though
11:03 < t-bast> and maybe only switch to video if we can't understand ourselves or want to share something 
11:03  * BlueMatt has been negligent on chairing, happy to do it unless someone else feels a desire to
11:03 < michaelfolkson> We can try today if everyone wants, I thought people would want to ok it first
11:03 < BlueMatt> I think I was the bigger sticking point on video, but if there's transcripts I'm happy
11:03 < BlueMatt> aside from my phone being low on charge lol
11:04 < t-bast> great, if you're available today michael we can definitely try it out now?
11:04 < michaelfolkson> Ok sure
11:04 < t-bast> https://meet.google.com/abb-ekvg-oaw
11:05 < t-bast> BlueMatt: do you have a laptop available? is the low phone battery a blocker for you today?
11:05 < BlueMatt> no, its fine, you may just have to stare up my nose
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11:10 < cdecker[m]> Nobody here?
11:10 < vincenzopalazzo> Timezone kik out some people I think?
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11:13 < BlueMatt> we've moved to the gogle meet above
11:13 < BlueMatt> niftynei: 
11:13 < BlueMatt> <t-bast> https://meet.google.com/abb-ekvg-oaw
11:13 < gene> hi
11:14 < BlueMatt> hi gene see above google meet link
11:14 < gene> BlueMatt: thanks o/
11:14 < BlueMatt> if there's any comments made here I will repeat them on the video
11:14 < BlueMatt> but ideally of course contribute on video
11:14 < niftynei> thank u, just found it via the logs too 
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11:16 < michaelfolkson> So yeah feel free to join the call. Questions and comments can be typed here if you don't want to speak on the call
11:17 < michaelfolkson> The plan is there will be an anonymized transcript of the call that can people read afterwards
11:18 < gene> google no like tor exit :(
11:18 < gene> can't join
11:19 < BlueMatt> current discussion https://github.com/lightning/bolts/pull/759
11:19 < michaelfolkson> I do think Jitsi (or Zoom) would be worth trying for a future one. I'm having sound issues today for some reason
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11:19 < BlueMatt> we've had pretty good success with jitsi on the ldk call
11:19 < michaelfolkson> But yeah can be discussed another time
11:20 < BlueMatt> or, I have, some folks have complained here and there, but probably not a lot more complaints than google meet anyway
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11:20  * gene votes for jitsi
11:20 < compress> jitsi is FOSS and has an open server, right?
11:20 < gene> compress: yes
11:21 < michaelfolkson> Yeah my vote would be Jitsi too assuming the attendance doesn't get above 20
11:22 < gene> bugs after that?
11:22 < gene> would be willing to throw some dev cycles jitsi's way if we decide to do reg meetings there
11:22 < michaelfolkson> You definitely want people to be turning video off after that
11:22 < gene> otherwise, I don't use it
11:23 < gene> yeah, audio gets all the high-bandwidth of video
11:23 < compress> michaelfolkson is the constraint the code or the server hardware?
11:23 < michaelfolkson> Zoom is much better performance wise (understandably, you're paying for it) once attendance gets larger
11:23 < gene> no need to require extra bandwidth for video
11:23 < gene> makes uploading easier too
11:23 < gene> and doing machine generated transcripts (for public logs on GH or w/e)
11:24 < michaelfolkson> compress: I would guess both. But definitely hardware
11:24 < gene> real-time video and audio processing == hard
11:25 < gene> BlueMatt: michaelfolkson: will these meeting sessions be uploaded after?
11:26 < michaelfolkson> Machine generated transcripts for technical discussions are pretty bad. They are pretty good for non-technical discussions with commonly used words
11:26 < michaelfolkson> gene: The plan is there will be an anonymized transcript
11:26 < gene> could be a good starting place though, would be willing to help correct the initial machine pass
11:26 < gene> michaelfolkson: +1
11:27 < gene> could stream it live over a peertube instance
11:28 < gene> would only need one person to do the stream upload of their feed
11:28 < michaelfolkson> It is up to the participants obviously. For c-lightning the preference seemed to be no video going online but having an anonymized transcript. Gets a more comfortable balance between privacy and information sharing
11:29 < gene> right, that makes sense
11:29 < michaelfolkson> You don't want the participants being uncomfortable and not talking freely because a recording is going up
11:30 < gene> well then, why use google?
11:30 < gene> almost worst possible choice re: privacy
11:30 < michaelfolkson> Google doesn't make the recording public
11:30 < gene> not the point, you might as well directly record on NSA servers
11:31 < michaelfolkson> Depends who you want to maintain privacy from I guess
11:31 < gene> yeah
11:31 < michaelfolkson> I don't think you can maintain privacy against NSA whatever you use :)
11:31 < gene> no, but you can make it harder than handing directly to google.
11:32 < michaelfolkson> I agree Jitsi would be my choice
11:32 < gene> even group audio chat over matrix would be better
11:32 < gene> or jitsi, yeah
11:32 < gene> plus, neither of those block tor exits
11:33  * gene ends grumbles
11:33 < michaelfolkson> Ha
11:35 < gene> maybe everyone uses voice changers, to help ease privacy concerns with audio?
11:35 < devrandom> I would also prefer jitsi or matrix
11:35 < gene> (after all, anyone in the meeting can record)
11:37 < gene> would be willing to put funds toward a community jitsi server
11:38 < michaelfolkson> Right but that's different to knowing you are all being livestreamed onto a public platform as you speak. And at least if you record within the software the participants are informed
11:39 < gene> not if the other party is recording using stuff outside the software
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11:39 < michaelfolkson> Of course many would be fine with being livestreamed but you want to cater to everyone participating
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11:39 < michaelfolkson> gene: Right they can record outside of the software
11:39 < gene> they aren't catering to tor users
11:39 < michaelfolkson> Not today but if they use Jitsi next time
11:40 < gene> right
11:40 < michaelfolkson> And the plan is a transcript will be available
11:41 < gene> for sure, guess I should have participated in platform discussions earlier
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12:17 < rusty> niftynei: right, so how does zeroconf work in the case of DF?
12:17 < rusty> (I haven't thought about it at all, but perhaps it enlightens this discussion)
12:19 < roasbeef> re the zero conf thing and the UX y'all are suggesting: do y'all have API hooks on the accept message? 
12:19 < roasbeef> for example we don't rn, which is why the "reject with an error after open" Just Works as is 
12:20 < roasbeef> rusty: I think you'd only do it after something like no_input is in? 
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12:21 < rusty> roasbeef: we could, but I was imagining a whitelist of nodes we "trust".   But if they add that *after* the other node has started channel open, it would be nice if it Just Worked? (and we send funding_locked then)
12:21 < roasbeef> gotcha, yeh I think we're just all thinking about the actual deployment of this pretty differently 
12:22 < roasbeef> seems like a bit meat space list to decide w/ some white list _after_ the request comes in that we'll retroactively upgrade and allow zero conf 
12:22 < roasbeef> vs just accepting or denying from _the very start_ 
12:22 < roasbeef> in our use case, wallets that want to use the feature say they only want zero conf, so the "we'll open a reg one anyway" violates assumptions 
12:23 < rusty> roasbeef: yeah, I mean since opener will always support zeroconf (because there is no trust issue), accepter can always make it work after the fact by simply sending funding_locked early.
12:24 < rusty> roasbeef: OTOH, looking at the DF protocol changes things.  The opener can no longer always offer zeroconf, because accepter can add funds.  This actually argues for a channel_type in this case (or some equiv explicit flag).
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12:27 < BlueMatt> rusty: wouldn't the presence of DF simply imply that min_conf *must* be > 0 (and funding_locked MUST NOT be sent prior to funding)?
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12:28 < rusty> BlueMatt: well, using DF protocol doesn't mean you actually both put funds in, so it's a bit trickier.
12:28 < rusty> (open_channel2 is a superset)
12:28 < BlueMatt> right, I dont actually know how DF currently works (I mean, Dont-Fragment I do, but Dual-Funding less so)
12:29 < BlueMatt> but presumably it would be implied? But maybe there's a reason there why not to do a ZC bit too? like, if you set DF and then have the peer not add anything maybe you want to do that cause zeroconf
12:29 < BlueMatt> and once you receive a funding-locked you've moved past the funding-add stage?
12:29 < BlueMatt> I'm partially speculating
12:30 < rusty> BlueMatt: well, the *accepter* has a way of flagging that it trusts the opener, but not vice versa.
12:30 < rusty> So there's an argument for an explicit "I trust you, we can zeroconf!" field here.
12:30 < BlueMatt> ah, you mean if there's mutual trust and you want zero-conf even though its dual-funded
12:30 < BlueMatt> yes, ok, i missed that
12:31 < BlueMatt> something-something optional bits in channel type lol
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12:33 < rusty> BlueMatt: yeah, it definitely sways me towards roasbeef's PoV here.  Though putting what is effectively transient information in the channel_type is kinda weird. 
12:33 < BlueMatt> I'd argue that you'd want an optional channel type bit there
12:33 < BlueMatt> which is...currently explicitly forbidden lol
12:33 < BlueMatt> so maybe not, but in theory
12:33 < rusty> Hmm, we could cut the difference and allow accept_channel to set a channel_type *less than* the channel_type in open_channel?  But that might not help with roasbeef's issue that he wants it to fail...
12:34 < rusty> BlueMatt: yeah, I think we're closing on the same idea.
12:34 < BlueMatt> i mean I think what you're saying is you really want a min_depth on the opening side in a dual-funding?
12:35 < BlueMatt> which seems to be something you may want anyway, and solves the issue from a different angle
12:36 < rusty> Hmm... myabe?  Got to go, but I'll think about it
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13:10 < ariard> sorry to have missed tonight, personally i'm good to experiment back with audio calls though as a non-native big pref for text-based meetings, even if slower!
13:10 < ariard> And yes pref of jitsi over hangout, better open :p
14:43 < niftynei> hey sorry missed the ping here. i dont have a good understanding of current ZC design to really have a good angle on how to apply that to the open-flow for v2 channel opens 
14:43 < niftynei> is it outlined in the current spec proposal?
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--- Log closed Tue Nov 23 00:00:40 2021