--- Log opened Fri Jan 14 00:00:29 2022
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02:09 < _aj_> gleb745: bob unlocks his coins by creating a solo-funded channel if alice doesn't sign (assuming he still wants a channel at all at that point)
02:28 < darosior> Most probably he doesn't if Alice is already misbehaving before even having a co-owned output with her
02:31 < gleb745> yeah, exactly. So am i right that Bob would have to overspend his coins into something else? Otherwise just living with alice having his signature is unsafe.
02:32 < gleb745> And Alice doesn't pay anything for this, apart from, like, reputation and maybe something-something Podle
02:38 < darosior> I think you are right (would have to double check against the DF PR), but even then i don't think that's super unsafe: worst case is what? He goes on with his node life and after a week Alice broadcast the funding tx with Bob's still-unspent UTxOs. She refuses to mutual close so he has to broadcast the first commitment transaction. That's a cost,
02:38 < darosior> but arguably there already exist ones much worse than this one: it's not free for her to do.
02:57 < _aj_> gleb745: he can use the coin to setup a channel with someone else. as long as alice doesn't broadcast her sig, he doesn't pay any fees; if she does, he gets the dual funded channel? i don't really see the problem
03:04 < gleb745> I need dual-funding for something else actually :) Yeah it's probably not a big deal in Lightning
03:05 < _aj_> ah, that makes more sense
03:06 < _aj_> able to describe it? (on wizards maybe if it's off-topic here?)
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08:55 < BlueMatt[m]> realtbast/t-bast: re: a flag to indicate an invoice pay take a while to complete - do you know which LSPs currently hold payments if the receiving wallet is offline? Is it only Muun?
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08:57 < realtbast[m]> We had many issues with Muun doing that, as far as I remember they're the only ones at the moment in our support tickets
09:00 < BlueMatt[m]> I anticipate more will eventually...
09:03 < BlueMatt[m]> if nothing else, a flag muun can set to indicate it feels like it would allow for better ux
09:04 < realtbast[m]> It's likely indeed...Muun is special though, since it's not using lightning between the LSP and the wallet (and that's the source of most of the hodling bugs). Future LSPs, if they use lightning all the way (and one of the main implementations) probably won't need to hold HTLCs like that
09:05 < BlueMatt[m]> I mean I dont believe there is currently any way to "receive" while offline, so I could totally see future LSPs making the same design decision, lightning or not.
09:05 < BlueMatt[m]> dunno why lightning-on-last-hop vs not matters?
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09:06 < realtbast[m]> True, eclair fails fast if it cannot make the wallet go online, but other implementations may use long timeouts there
09:06 < realtbast[m]> You're right, we'd need something anyway
09:07 < realtbast[m]> the reason I brought not-lightning-on-last-hop in their case is because they had bugs in their non-lightning-mpp implementation, and that was the reason most of our users ended up with stuck payments
09:07 < realtbast[m]> but even without that bug, I agree that if the wallet takes time to come online (or doesn't), the HTLC will likely be hodl-ed for a while, which isn't a great UX for the sender
09:10 < BlueMatt[m]> right, if nothing else signaling to the sender would allow them to take a different ui path
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--- Log closed Sat Jan 15 00:00:30 2022