--- Log opened Mon Feb 28 00:00:12 2022 00:37 -!- bitromortac_ [~admin@gateway/tor-sasl/bitromortac] has joined #lightning-dev 00:38 -!- bitromortac [~admin@gateway/tor-sasl/bitromortac] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:40 -!- bitdex [~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:41 -!- ghost43_ [~ghost43@gateway/tor-sasl/ghost43] has joined #lightning-dev 00:41 -!- ghost43 [~ghost43@gateway/tor-sasl/ghost43] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:44 -!- bitdex [~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex] has joined #lightning-dev 00:49 -!- bitromortac [~admin@gateway/tor-sasl/bitromortac] has joined #lightning-dev 00:50 -!- bitromortac_ [~admin@gateway/tor-sasl/bitromortac] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:00 -!- riclas [~riclas@77.7.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lightning-dev 01:01 -!- ghost43_ [~ghost43@gateway/tor-sasl/ghost43] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:01 -!- ghost43 [~ghost43@gateway/tor-sasl/ghost43] has joined #lightning-dev 01:10 -!- bitdex [~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:10 -!- bitdex [~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex] has joined #lightning-dev 01:20 -!- jespada [~jespada@185.69.145.16] has joined #lightning-dev 02:03 -!- kexkey [~kexkey@static-198-54-132-149.cust.tzulo.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:05 -!- kexkey [~kexkey@static-198-54-132-85.cust.tzulo.com] has joined #lightning-dev 02:56 -!- b42 [~mmilata@b42.cz] has joined #lightning-dev 03:13 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@user/AaronvanW] has joined #lightning-dev 03:32 -!- ghost43 [~ghost43@gateway/tor-sasl/ghost43] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:33 -!- ghost43 [~ghost43@gateway/tor-sasl/ghost43] has joined #lightning-dev 03:35 -!- jespada [~jespada@185.69.145.16] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:59 -!- jespada [~jespada@185.69.145.16] has joined #lightning-dev 04:19 -!- ghost43 [~ghost43@gateway/tor-sasl/ghost43] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:20 -!- ghost43 [~ghost43@gateway/tor-sasl/ghost43] has joined #lightning-dev 04:27 -!- ghost43 [~ghost43@gateway/tor-sasl/ghost43] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:28 -!- ghost43 [~ghost43@gateway/tor-sasl/ghost43] has joined #lightning-dev 04:39 -!- test_ is now known as _flood 04:52 -!- ghost43_ [~ghost43@gateway/tor-sasl/ghost43] has joined #lightning-dev 04:53 -!- ghost43 [~ghost43@gateway/tor-sasl/ghost43] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:58 -!- bitdex [~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex] has quit [Quit: = ""] 05:13 -!- ghost43 [~ghost43@gateway/tor-sasl/ghost43] has joined #lightning-dev 05:16 -!- ghost43_ [~ghost43@gateway/tor-sasl/ghost43] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:53 -!- jespada [~jespada@185.69.145.16] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:19 -!- jespada [~jespada@185.69.145.16] has joined #lightning-dev 07:04 -!- ghost43 [~ghost43@gateway/tor-sasl/ghost43] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:05 -!- ghost43 [~ghost43@gateway/tor-sasl/ghost43] has joined #lightning-dev 07:13 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@user/luke-jr] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 07:14 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@user/luke-jr] has joined #lightning-dev 07:31 -!- endothermicdev [~endotherm@2600:1700:8481:8900:8d6a:2dfd:92c8:a016] has joined #lightning-dev 07:45 -!- belcher [~belcher@user/belcher] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:50 -!- belcher [~belcher@user/belcher] has joined #lightning-dev 07:54 -!- bitromortac [~admin@gateway/tor-sasl/bitromortac] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:54 -!- bitromortac [~admin@gateway/tor-sasl/bitromortac] has joined #lightning-dev 08:54 -!- calvz14 [~calvz14@128-092-120-147.biz.spectrum.com] has joined #lightning-dev 09:16 -!- belcher [~belcher@user/belcher] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:19 -!- belcher [~belcher@user/belcher] has joined #lightning-dev 09:29 -!- ghost43 [~ghost43@gateway/tor-sasl/ghost43] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:30 -!- ghost43 [~ghost43@gateway/tor-sasl/ghost43] has joined #lightning-dev 09:30 -!- ghost43 [~ghost43@gateway/tor-sasl/ghost43] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:30 -!- ghost43 [~ghost43@gateway/tor-sasl/ghost43] has joined #lightning-dev 09:52 -!- calvz14 [~calvz14@128-092-120-147.biz.spectrum.com] has quit [Quit: Client closed] 10:31 -!- endothermicdev_ [~endotherm@99-98-58-43.lightspeed.tulsok.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lightning-dev 10:34 -!- endothermicdev [~endotherm@2600:1700:8481:8900:8d6a:2dfd:92c8:a016] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:57 -!- rusty [~rusty@121.44.216.96] has joined #lightning-dev 10:57 -!- xraid [~xraid@185.176.246.72] has joined #lightning-dev 11:01 < BlueMatt[m]> hi all 11:01 -!- calvz14 [~calvz14@128-092-120-147.biz.spectrum.com] has joined #lightning-dev 11:02 -!- niftynei____ [~niftynei_@99-8-218-209.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lightning-dev 11:04 < niftynei____> hey everyone, the meeting agenda is here https://github.com/lightning/bolts/issues/965 11:04 < niftynei____> we're all hanging out on the jitsi chat 11:05 < BlueMatt[m]> realtbast yo 11:06 < BlueMatt[m]> cdecker yo 11:10 -!- jespada [~jespada@185.69.145.16] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:26 -!- bitromortac [~admin@gateway/tor-sasl/bitromortac] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:26 -!- bitromortac [~admin@gateway/tor-sasl/bitromortac] has joined #lightning-dev 11:32 -!- lukedashjr [~luke-jr@user/luke-jr] has joined #lightning-dev 11:34 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@user/luke-jr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:35 -!- lukedashjr is now known as luke-jr 11:42 -!- calvz14 [~calvz14@128-092-120-147.biz.spectrum.com] has quit [Quit: Client closed] 11:53 -!- niftynei____ [~niftynei_@99-8-218-209.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:09 < cdecker[m]> We're stuck at the conference dinner, but we made some progress with the RBF rules (tl;dr: we think RBF policy being used as an anti-DoS mechanism is conflating multiple independent things, and anti-DoS can be better addressed via other means, I'll write this up tomorrow). So things are moving along 😃 12:09 < BlueMatt[m]> There were several proposals historically to change the dos logic, but none really ever made enough sense to implement. 12:11 < BlueMatt[m]> sadly, while its somewhat conflating two things, its pretty clear there is no better alternative, at least near the top of the mempool. 12:11 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@user/luke-jr] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 12:13 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@user/luke-jr] has joined #lightning-dev 12:19 -!- ghost43 [~ghost43@gateway/tor-sasl/ghost43] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:20 -!- ghost43 [~ghost43@gateway/tor-sasl/ghost43] has joined #lightning-dev 12:21 < cdecker[m]> Yeah, I don't think any RBF rule can rely on knowledge of the mempool, which limits our choices here. But if the goal is to limit the impact of a DoS attack we may be ok with a combination of % feerate bump requirement + staggered broadcast which undermines an attacker's ability to pull off a pinning attack. To be successful an attacker has to reliably pin a low feerate transaction in all possible block finding miners. So we weaken the 12:21 < cdecker[m]> requirements for a successful RBF bump, but at the same time we limit the impact of spam by delaying forwarding any spam messages and deduplicating locally. 12:21 < cdecker[m]> Effectively what we limit here is the multiplicative factor of the broadcast, by delaying and aggregating at each hop. 12:22 < BlueMatt[m]> nah, that wont work, an attacker knows the nodes of miners, or reasonably can 12:22 < BlueMatt[m]> so that doesn't address the issue at all, afaict 12:28 < cdecker[m]> The fact is that we always allow nodes to just replace immediately, so if an attacker is talking to a miner directly they'll replace, but a victim can always immediately replace with a fee bump that gets it closer to inclusion, with the staggering we disentangle the RBF policy from DoS protection, simplifying the RBF rules and dropping the dreaded rule 3 12:29 < cdecker[m]> The attacker can no longer pin, since we remove rule 3 😉 12:29 < BlueMatt[m]> the "dreaded rule 3" is required for incentive compatibilit 12:29 < BlueMatt[m]> y 12:29 < BlueMatt[m]> you simply cannot remove it 12:29 < BlueMatt[m]> miners should re-implement rule 3 individually even if bitcoin core removes it 12:29 < BlueMatt[m]> in order to maximize income 12:37 < BlueMatt[m]> (you can arguably remove it "at the top of the mempool", but that isn't super helpful here, unless you also add a signaling mechanism for transactors to communicate to miners/the network what their future behavior will be) 12:56 -!- jarthur [~jarthur@2603-8080-1540-002d-2403-883c-da0e-8eb1.res6.spectrum.com] has joined #lightning-dev 13:07 -!- jespada [~jespada@185.69.145.16] has joined #lightning-dev 13:15 -!- rusty [~rusty@121.44.216.96] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:18 -!- geyaeb [~geyaeb@gateway/tor-sasl/geyaeb] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:18 -!- geyaeb [~geyaeb@gateway/tor-sasl/geyaeb] has joined #lightning-dev 13:40 -!- lukedashjr [~luke-jr@user/luke-jr] has joined 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