--- Log opened Mon Feb 28 00:00:12 2022
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11:01 < BlueMatt[m]> hi all
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11:04 < niftynei____> hey everyone, the meeting agenda is here https://github.com/lightning/bolts/issues/965
11:04 < niftynei____> we're all hanging out on the jitsi chat
11:05 < BlueMatt[m]> realtbast yo
11:06 < BlueMatt[m]> cdecker yo
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12:09 < cdecker[m]> We're stuck at the conference dinner, but we made some progress with the RBF rules (tl;dr: we think RBF policy being used as an anti-DoS mechanism is conflating multiple independent things, and anti-DoS can be better addressed via other means, I'll write this up tomorrow). So things are moving along 😃
12:09 < BlueMatt[m]> There were several proposals historically to change the dos logic, but none really ever made enough sense to implement.
12:11 < BlueMatt[m]> sadly, while its somewhat conflating two things, its pretty clear there is no better alternative, at least near the top of the mempool.
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12:21 < cdecker[m]> Yeah, I don't think any RBF rule can rely on knowledge of the mempool, which limits our choices here. But if the goal is to limit the impact of a DoS attack we may be ok with a combination of % feerate bump requirement + staggered broadcast which undermines an attacker's ability to pull off a pinning attack. To be successful an attacker has to reliably pin a low feerate transaction in all possible block finding miners. So we weaken the
12:21 < cdecker[m]> requirements for a successful RBF bump, but at the same time we limit the impact of spam by delaying forwarding any spam messages and deduplicating locally.
12:21 < cdecker[m]> Effectively what we limit here is the multiplicative factor of the broadcast, by delaying and aggregating at each hop. 
12:22 < BlueMatt[m]> nah, that wont work, an attacker knows the nodes of miners, or reasonably can
12:22 < BlueMatt[m]> so that doesn't address the issue at all, afaict
12:28 < cdecker[m]> The fact is that we always allow nodes to just replace immediately, so if an attacker is talking to a miner directly they'll replace, but a victim can always immediately replace with a fee bump that gets it closer to inclusion, with the staggering we disentangle the RBF policy from DoS protection, simplifying the RBF rules and dropping the dreaded rule 3
12:29 < cdecker[m]> The attacker can no longer pin, since we remove rule 3 😉
12:29 < BlueMatt[m]> the "dreaded rule 3" is required for incentive compatibilit
12:29 < BlueMatt[m]> y
12:29 < BlueMatt[m]> you simply cannot remove it
12:29 < BlueMatt[m]> miners should re-implement rule 3 individually even if bitcoin core removes it
12:29 < BlueMatt[m]> in order to maximize income
12:37 < BlueMatt[m]> (you can arguably remove it "at the top of the mempool", but that isn't super helpful here, unless you also add a signaling mechanism for transactors to communicate to miners/the network what their future behavior will be)
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--- Log closed Tue Mar 01 00:00:13 2022