--- Log opened Wed May 18 00:00:26 2022
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03:31 < Jmabsd> How does exclusive receiving work in Lightning?  Say someone is trying to send you 0.1 BTC via Lightning.
03:31 < Jmabsd> You don't have a Lightning channel and after the reception you will just close the channel.
03:31 < Jmabsd> How does that work in practice - can the sender pay your channel open/close fees too, or do you need to upfront them
03:32 < realtbast[m]> That really isn't what lightning is designed to do
03:33 < realtbast[m]> This will cost two on-chain transactions, just sending on-chain directly is more efficient
03:38 < Jmabsd> realtbast[m]: my question regards what the situation is when the receiving channel does not exist yet - 
03:38 < Jmabsd> can it be funded by the sender
03:38 < Jmabsd> through the lightning chain
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04:30 < Jmabsd> realtbast[m]: ?
04:31 < remyers[m]> <Jmabsd> "realtbast: my question regards..." <- Consider that if the node forwarding the payment preemptively creates a channel to the payment receiver, they tie up liquidity and pay the on-chain tx fee. If the payment receiver does not accept the incoming payment (eg. goes offline) then the preemptive channel opener is out the tx fee and may have to wait a long time to get their liquidity back.  Even if the payment is received
04:31 < remyers[m]> successfully, the lightning fees must be enough to compensate for the on-chain fees and liquidity that might just sit there and not earn them any additional fees. It's not just an economic question though because a possible attack could tie up liquidity and on-chain fees of honest nodes.
04:32 < remyers[m]> s/a/an/, s/possible/attacker/, s/attack//
04:35 < realtbast[m]> I think you're confused about lightning @Jmabsd, there is no "lightning chain", it's using the bitcoin chain
04:36 < realtbast[m]> Something that may look like what you describe would be for a sender (Bob) to pay for Alice to obtain a channel with funds inside it
04:36 < Jmabsd> I know there is no lightning chain.
04:36 < realtbast[m]> That is doable, but it lacks ecosystem tooling, none of the bitcoin wallets out there are able to do that (the UX would be quite hard to get right)
04:39 < Jmabsd> realtbast[m]: Does the Lightning network support it?
04:39 < Jmabsd> (For clarity, I am aware there is no Lightning chain.)
04:41 < realtbast[m]> Of course you can open a channel on the fly to forward a payment and then close it, lightning does make this possible. But no-one out there will offer that service because as remyers explained that doesn't make sense economically.
04:42 < realtbast[m]> Then it's technically also possible to have the sender "sponsor" a channel for the recipient by paying adding one of its utxos to the funding tx of that channel
04:42 < realtbast[m]> That would make more sense and is possible with the lightning protocol, but there is not wallet support for this (and the UX can get messy)
04:45 < Jmabsd> realtbast[m]: would the last ligthning hop open the channel for the recipient with his utxo, or the originator himself would use his own utxo to open????? 
04:46 < realtbast[m]> Both are technically possible, that depends on what the last lightning hop is ready to offer you
05:40 < Jmabsd> realtbast[m]: Cool. Does any do this currently?
05:40 < Jmabsd> To receive at the cost of the sender is a valuable feature.
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05:43 < realtbast[m]> Most wallet providers offer some kind of on-the-fly channel creation, where they use their utxos to fund the channel but take a fee in exchange, have a look at Phoenix or Breez for example.
05:43 < realtbast[m]> AFAIK no-one implemented the other option to have the sender directly offer an utxo to use in channel funding, because bitcoin wallets don't have the necessary tooling for that (they would need to go back and forth with psbts or use a centralized coordination server).
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05:48 < Jmabsd> realtbast[m]: cool
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05:48 < Jmabsd> realtbast[m]: so Phoenix and Breeze offer this kind of Alice sends Bob without Bob holding a channel in the first place. ok.
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05:59 < Jmabsd> thanks for saying, will check.
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10:34 < instagibbs_> "Changing the localpubkey every time ensures that commitment transaction ID cannot be guessed except in the trivial case where there is no to_local output, as every commitment transaction uses an ID in its output script." whos is not supposed to be guessing the txid here?
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14:01 < realtbast[m]> Good question...there are a few historical things about key rotation for which we lost context since they were initially spec-ed, maybe laolu, christian or tadge remember? A while ago I had a similar question about the rotation of one of the keys which seems useless, and no-one was able to answer it :/
14:01 < realtbast[m]> A lot of this stuff was made with the watch-tower usecase in mind, maybe that's related?
14:02 < instagibbs_> That's my suspicion. I recently had to learn what/why static remotekey was, and that was also fairly poorly motivated by historical/current docs
14:02 < instagibbs_> I am going to talk to sr_gi who might have ideas
14:03 < realtbast[m]> IIRC tadge was behind most of the key rotation setup here, it may be worth pinging him as well if sr_gi doesn't know why it's useful
14:03 < instagibbs_> if I get up to speed I volunteer to update documentation!
14:03 < realtbast[m]> That would be great!
14:04 < _0x0ff> exit
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20:23 -!- evanlinjin [~evanlinji@gateway/tor-sasl/evanlinjin] has joined #lightning-dev
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22:30 -!- evanlinjin [~evanlinji@gateway/tor-sasl/evanlinjin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
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22:35 -!- evanlinjin [~evanlinji@gateway/tor-sasl/evanlinjin] has quit [Client Quit]
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22:55 -!- bitromortac [~admin@gateway/tor-sasl/bitromortac] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
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23:07 -!- bitromortac [~admin@gateway/tor-sasl/bitromortac] has joined #lightning-dev
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--- Log closed Thu May 19 00:00:27 2022