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01:55 < shtirlic> @roasbeef I know, raiden/lightning are similar, but  plasma is different, lightning and raiden like subset of plasma
01:55 < shtirlic> specific case
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03:14 < stevenroose> Does lnd have basic support for trying to cheat the system?
03:15 < stevenroose> I would agree if it doesn't, but for testsing purposes, it could be valuable. Like trying to close with the commitment the most in your benefit etc
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09:46 < aakselrod> stevenroose: we have a "breach arbiter" in lnd that broadcasts a punishment transaction if it detects cheating, and johan is working on watchtower support as well
09:46 < aakselrod> which is to say private, outsourced monitoring of channels for breaches
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11:43 -github-lnd:#lnd- [lnd] Roasbeef pushed 2 new commits to master: https://git.io/vbzoQ
11:43 -github-lnd:#lnd- lnd/master ecf58d6 Olaoluwa Osuntokun: peer: properly route UpdateFailMalformedHTLC messages to the switch...
11:43 -github-lnd:#lnd- lnd/master 4cca232 Olaoluwa Osuntokun: htlcswitch: add new default case when handling UpdateFailMalformedHLTC...
11:43 <@roasbeef> shtirlic: not really
11:44 < shtirlic> @roasbeef  single child chain
11:44 < shtirlic> one smart contract
11:45 <@roasbeef> not comparable
11:58 < shtirlic> okay
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13:49 -github-neutrino:#lnd- [neutrino] aakselrod opened pull request #32: [WIP] Small fixes (master...lnwallet-fixes) https://git.io/vbzFT
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16:12 < notafemalenot13> 1. When is this thing coming? 2. Why isn't it part of Bitcoin itself?
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16:13 < notafemalenot13> I mean, are you going to convince the small subset of the population who know about, have and use Bitcoin to use this separate thing?
16:13 < notafemalenot13> I don't understand how this is going to work out or why it's done this way.
16:18 < lndbot1> <conner> 1. once we have tested it extensively 2. clarify?
16:23 < lndbot1> <conner> it’s not a separate thing, you’re still sending bitcoin..
16:24 < Styil> notafemalenot13: It is a part of Bitcoin, otherwise we wouldnt be doing it with bitcoin
16:24 < Styil> Its just that only recently was it possible to make this happen in Bitcoin
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16:29 < notafemalenot13> So it will be part of Bitcoin?
16:29 < notafemalenot13> Not an add-on?
16:30 < notafemalenot13> I will automatically get "Lightning" support with a new version of Bitcoin Core?
16:31 < Styil> Define part of Bitcoin and add on.
16:31 < notafemalenot13> I don't think I can put this any clearer...
16:31 < Styil> Bitcoin Core may get future lightning support but for now it is an app that runs in the background
16:32 < Styil> along with bitcoin core
16:33 < notafemalenot13> Won't it just be yet another thing that isn't used because nobody knows about it and nobody wants to have a bunch of stuff on top of the other stuff which is already from the beginning annoying to deal with?
16:33 < notafemalenot13> Is there a reason this isn't merged with Bitcoin?
16:33 < notafemalenot13> Are they hostile toward Lightning?
16:34 < Styil> People already know about this, this is in fact what drove bitcoin politics for the last year or two
16:35 < Styil> And Lightning is specifically designed to fix some of bitcoin's annoyances
16:41 < Styil> No, bitcoin core devs arent hostile to lightning, quite the opposite actually
16:41 < Styil> I guess it would be an addon, it abuses Bitcoin's rules to make this instant payment network
16:42 < Styil> It could be merged into bitcoin core in the future but as it stands, Bitcoin Core is designed for a specific task and does it well
16:42 < notafemalenot13> Styil: That sounds bizarre.
16:42 < notafemalenot13> Why would they be against a solution to this problem?
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16:42 < notafemalenot13> If it's elegant and smart and efficient?
16:42 < lndbot1> <conner> Bitcoin core != bitcoin
16:42 < Styil> they arent against it
16:43 < Styil> Bitcoin core just isnt the place for lightning right now
16:43 < notafemalenot13> "it abuses Bitcoin's rules to make this instant payment network"
16:43 < notafemalenot13> Confused about that part.
16:43 < Styil> Well, I at least define Bitcoin as a set of rules which brings rise to this cryotocurrency
16:43 < Styil> lightning is just something we can do with it
16:44 < notafemalenot13> I hope this won't be another Sega 32X or Sega Mega CD.
16:44 < notafemalenot13> "Better, but nobody had it."
16:45 < Styil> well unlike those, lightning doesnt cost really anything to get into it
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17:07 < notafemalenot13> Styil: Well, time and effort.
17:07 < notafemalenot13> Concern: All of my internal and external HDDs (except the system disk which will be nuked for whatever Qubes OS prefers) are VeraCrypted with NTFS file system. Will this cause any problems with Qubes OS?
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17:49 -github-lnd:#lnd- [lnd] Roasbeef pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/vbgsG
17:49 -github-lnd:#lnd- lnd/master 1121b0c Olaoluwa Osuntokun: server+funding: fix bug where funding tx could have zero fees attached...
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18:43 < molz> notafemalenot13, please read this:  https://coincenter.org/entry/what-is-the-lightning-network
18:59 < notafemalenot13> Dammit. I asked the question in the wrong channel.
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19:09 < notafemalenot13> https://coincenter.org/entry/what-is-the-lightning-network <-- Why does it talk about 10 minute transactions?
19:09 < notafemalenot13> 10 minutes is a dream...
19:09 < notafemalenot13> More like days?
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19:45 < molz> you mean bitcoin don't get a block for days?
19:46 < molz> where did you get that info?
19:54 < notafemalenot13> molz: What?
19:54 < notafemalenot13> Read what I said? I said nothing about any block.
19:55 < molz> notafemalenot13, then what were you talking about?
19:56 < molz> right now go look at blocks they come in on average about 10 min so every 10 min there are transactions that get confirmed
19:57 < shtirlic> @notafemalenot13 the process of injecting of lightning in bitcoin-core started, so u should just wait, maybe summer 2018 u can test it
19:57 < notafemalenot13> molz: I've no idea what you're talking about. See what I asked? Transactions take days to go through.
19:57 < notafemalenot13> Sometimes they go faster.
19:57 < molz> shtirlic, i've been testing lnd for almost a year, don't have to wait till summer
19:58 < shtirlic> @notafemalenot13 I insure you nobody will skip this thing
19:58 < notafemalenot13> shtirlic: My point is that it's crucial that it becomes part of Bitcoin and not an optional add-on.
19:58 < molz> notafemalenot13, dude, no, so you're talking about *your* txs, which is not what that article talks about
19:58 < notafemalenot13> molz: Again, I don't understand what you are saying. What is your point?
19:58 < molz> notafemalenot13, dude, if you send a tx with no fee or low fee then of course it takes days, but that is not what that article is saying
19:59 < notafemalenot13> I send with recommended fee.
19:59 < shtirlic> @notafemalenot13 it like saying bitcoin-core should be part of linux
19:59 < notafemalenot13> Which is incredibly high.
19:59 < notafemalenot13> shtirlic: ...?!
20:00 < shtirlic> @notafemalenot13 you are talking about diffrent things warm and soft
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20:00 < shtirlic> like warm and soft
20:00 < shtirlic> lightning is already working with patcthed bitcoin nodes
20:01 < shtirlic> when specs will be ready there are will be chnanges in bitcoin-core
20:01 < notafemalenot13> Specs?
20:01 < shtirlic> sure
20:01 < shtirlic> there many req
20:01 < shtirlic> for lightning to work good and fast
20:01 < molz> shtirlic, LN is second layer on top of bitcoin
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20:02 < shtirlic> and it should be done on btc
20:03 < notafemalenot13> All I see is talk, talk, talk... and random slick websites popping up with grand promises but never delivering anything.
20:03 < notafemalenot13> And if they do deliver, it's for 20 users.
20:03 < notafemalenot13> A crucial ingredient is the ability to market something to the masses.
20:03 < shtirlic> @notafemalenot13 u are really don't understand
20:03 < shtirlic> so just wait
20:03 < shtirlic> it's not one day pacth
20:03 < shtirlic> and everyone go
20:05 < shtirlic> there is no need to market this
20:05 < lightningbot4> <conner> notafemalenot13 this isn’t an ICO
20:05 < shtirlic> at this point
20:05 < Styil> notafemalenot13: Lightning devs arent asking for money. That should be the number 1 indicator that this is at least somewhat lefit
20:05 < Styil> legit
20:05 < shtirlic> maybe market to devs/testers
20:06 < notafemalenot13> I don't understand why it's a separate thing to begin with if the Bitcoin developers are so happy about it.
20:06 < notafemalenot13> Why not just give them the code to Lightning as a patch that they accept?
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20:06 < molz> notafemalenot13, then read and learn and find out
20:06 < molz> LN cannot be just a patch
20:06 < shtirlic> this is separated thing
20:07 < Styil> notafemalenot13: That may happen in the future. But as more of an add on to Bitcoin, it is a seperate app today
20:07 < notafemalenot13> :/     
20:07 < Styil> beside, testing features in parts without having to worry about bitcoin core code is easier
20:07 < shtirlic> but will work together when both part will be ready
20:07 < Styil> either way, you can just forget about it and come back when you hear it is ready
20:08 < shtirlic> yeeh or some day discover this feature in updated wallet
20:08 < notafemalenot13> I've lost track of the countless projects I've discovered which seem promising but then never go anywhere, so I'll believe it when I see it... :/
20:08 < shtirlic> thats it
20:08 < molz> notafemalenot13, sure, goodbye
20:08 < molz> see ya later
20:08 < Styil> notafemalenot13: thats the right mindset
20:09 < notafemalenot13> Mindset?
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20:09 < notafemalenot13> Fact.
20:09 < lightningbot4> <conner> sounds like you’ve been tracking a lot of ICOs
20:11 < notafemalenot13> Various projects, including Namecoin.
20:11 < notafemalenot13> And Bitmessage.
20:11 < notafemalenot13> And Ricochet.
20:11 < notafemalenot13> And Tor.
20:12 < Styil> Would you call Tor unsuccessful?
20:13 < notafemalenot13> Styil: Virtually nobody can access .onions, so yes.
20:13 < notafemalenot13> And Tor as a proxy for clearnet is worthless as it's banned and harassed everywhere.
20:14 < notafemalenot13> And MaidSafe also does nothing but talk.
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23:21 < JohnWayne_> anyone willing to answer a question regarding lighting network?
23:27 < fishbone> better just to ask a question and hope for the best
23:29 < JohnWayne_> hehe, ok. Here it goes.
23:29 < JohnWayne_> I have the feeling that the community is looking at lightning network as the saving grace for Bitcoin.
23:30 < JohnWayne_> but, from what I understand of lightning network, one-off transacations between 2 parties wont benefit from it
23:30 < JohnWayne_> is my assumption correct?
23:32 < AndyS2> that depends. if you just look at a single channel of lightning, that's true. you even need 2tx on-chain to open and close the channel if everything works out
23:33 < JohnWayne_> exactly
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23:33 < AndyS2> but if you have a network of channels between various people, you can (without trust) pay each other over multiple hops
23:33 < AndyS2> even if it's 'one off'
23:34 < JohnWayne_> but you can only receive money when a channel closes, right? Because only then the blockchain knows about it.
23:35 <@roasbeef> JohnWayne_: you receive money when it's sent to you
23:35 <@roasbeef> you can then use that money to send elsewhere
23:35 <@roasbeef> chain only needs to know when you want to close the channel
23:36 < JohnWayne_> ah, ok. I think I get it.
23:36 < JohnWayne_> let me formulate an example
23:37 < JohnWayne_> Let's say I pay Amazon via LN. My initial thought was : "Why would Amazon do this, because they can only spend the money once the channel closes."
23:37 < JohnWayne_> But the idea is actually to reuse the open channels
23:37 < JohnWayne_> so for example, Amazon can use the funds in the channel to for example to refunds via LN
23:37 < JohnWayne_> all off chain
23:42 < AndyS2> sounds right to me. Your question sparked a question for me: Could I pay someone in fiat to open a big channel with Amazon (i.e. the one I have a channel to) to recharge my lightning channel?
23:43 < AndyS2> (it would obviously require me to trust them when I hand over fiat, just wondering if that's something that might be possible when the network is imbalanced, and all channels somewhat one-sided)
23:45 < JohnWayne_> why can't you directly open a channel with Amazon?
23:45 < JohnWayne_> obviously not with fiat ofcourse
23:47 <@roasbeef> JohnWayne_: you totally can (or would be able to)
23:47 < JohnWayne_> yeah, I was thinking so to.
23:48 < JohnWayne_> Andy, care to refine your question?
23:48 <@roasbeef> AndyS2: you could pay someone in fiat to sign on an output in a particular way. you can then use that partially signed output to add funds "recharge" your existing channel
23:48 <@roasbeef> there's a bit of coordination involved in this scenario, but it's possible
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