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00:13 < Veggen> BB-Martino: how did you upgrade?
00:13 < Veggen> if you allowed lnd to generate new things, then you would get a new pubkey.
00:14 < Veggen> The message authentication failed is your old channel partners trying to reestablish the old channels.
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00:41 < BB-Martino> Veggen: I have an update-lnd script that does git pull && glide install && go install
00:42 < BB-Martino> however, tls.key and tls.cert remained the same afterwards.
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01:04 < Veggen> Mmm, not so sure what actually makes up the public key, but I believe it's not the tls.key and tls.cert ?
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01:13 < Veggen> re blocks not getting propagated yesterday.
01:14 < Veggen> Seems bitcoind got block next after where lnd got stuck got before the block lnd never seemed to get.
01:14 < Veggen> restart of lnd did of course fix it.
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01:20 < Veggen> hmmf. I didn't update yesterday, and I get "message authentication" failed from all my channel partners now, after a restart.
01:21 < Veggen> and my macaroons were invalid. Had to delete them and restart to get new ones generated.
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04:54 < mlz> BB-Martino, you can ignore "[ERR] CMGR: Can't accept connection: chacha20poly1305: message authentication failed"  
04:59 < Veggen> mmm, I rolled back and got back my channels.
04:59 < Veggen> I had the same problem, occured somewhere between 6th and 9th of february. I believe :)
05:00 < Veggen> now, I'm gonna wait until roasbeefs announced breaking changes to roll forward again.
05:08 < mlz> that chacha20poly message has been there since the beginning of time :P 
05:08 < mlz> i think it means when you get a new key, some peers remember your ip and try to connect but fail
05:08 < Veggen> yah. Or vice versa.
05:08 < mlz> right
05:09 < Veggen> I didn't get a new key, I rolled back and got my channels up again.
05:09 < Veggen> ...so something changed?
05:09 < mlz> no clue
05:09 < mlz> but i don't pay attention to that chacha msg
05:10 < mlz> im wondering how BB-Martino got a new key if he didn't remove the wallet.db 
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05:41 < Veggen> Hmm. I admit it. I know that I shouldn't let reddit bleed over in here.
05:41 < Veggen> But I *do* love when supporters of that competing coins manage to paint themselves into a corner in a good discussion.
05:43 < Veggen> I have one of them that is basically claiming that running a full node if you're not mining is an attack, because your node might inadvertently discard a block that only the miners are supposed to validate.
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05:46 < booyah> Veggen: it's only bcashers, isn't that so
05:46 < booyah> they are mentally retarded
05:47 < Veggen> boohyah: I suffer from https://xkcd.com/386/
05:48 < booyah> Veggen: I solved that problem. want to see?
05:48 < Veggen> :)     
05:48 < booyah> `dymurray-distance dymurray
05:48 < sato_vision> dymurray: User `dymurray is known for spreading `FUD about LN regarding some imaginary "sybil attack". Can he define: 1) how the attack would work EXACTLY 2) what attacker has to do 3) what is the cost of it 4) what can attacker achieve then? If he does not, this is how we know he is just trolling.
05:48 < booyah> and no need to waste time on talking to them
05:50 < Veggen> Sort of get it. But I admit it's fun when they actually paint themselves into a corner, because their arguments don't actually fit together.
05:50 < Veggen> ...and I actually started spending time in that sub because I realize how dangerous echo-chambers are.
05:51 < Veggen> I guess it's kind of self-torture, but I try to always expose myself to opposite views, no matter how far out they are. Because the other side will also say that my views are far out.
05:51 < booyah> Veggen: that's how we learn, and also reconsolidate, and re-check own argumetns and views
05:52 < Veggen> yah.
05:53 < booyah> Veggen: also this is ancap, not democracy
05:53 < booyah> all idiots self-punish themsleves by e.g. buying stupid alt like BitConneeeeeee or being bagholder of bcash waiting forever for "flippening" and for "LN not ever being usable" xd
05:54 < booyah> as long as their mistakes do not force me to follow, it's all super neat.
05:55 < Veggen> yah.
05:56 < Veggen> I try to educate, too. Making people actually seeing proper information, and not misleading information.
05:56 < Veggen> But I guess I can't prevent people being gullible.
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06:04 < mlz> ou can't fix stupidity, hard enough to fix technologies :P 
06:04 < mlz> you^
06:04 < Veggen> yah.
06:05 < Veggen> but I realize crypto is hard, so I do feel that the world is a *little* better place if people seeking information actually have access to good info about the tech and not only bad.
06:05 < mlz> i've spent an enormous amount of time helping people but what i got was a slap in the face, it's not worth it to feed steaks to the dogs
06:05 < Veggen> I guess I'm just persistent.
06:06 < mlz> put your persistence in the right place, Veggen, i'm serious
06:06 < Veggen> yah. I know.
06:06 < mlz> it takes a lot of time to help test anything, but it wastes time when you try to get someone to learn something but they refuse, and all they want to do is talking out of their ass every single day, you can see this on many forums
06:08 < Veggen> I know. I guess I'll quit. But as I said, I do suffer from https://xkcd.com/386/ :)
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06:15 < mlz> yup, i used to suffer from that, not anymore
06:17 < Veggen> In a lightning node setup, would it be fair to say that it's the full node that is the most costly, in bandwidth, CPU (maybe not?) and disk space?
06:18 < Veggen> Would you save on anything if you, say, ran against a full node in the cloud, and just ran the lightning node in your data center/home/whatever?
06:18 < mlz> i think so, if you run a bitcoin fullnode 
06:19 < mlz> but if you run neutrino and connect to someone else's fullnode then no, but at the same time you depend on their charity to validate your txs
06:20 < Veggen> would you be better off with running neutrino to your full node in the cloud?
06:20 < Veggen> ...do you lose anything? Remember, you still control that node.
06:21 < mlz> you can run many lnd nodes with just one bitcoin fullnode, sure
06:22 < Veggen> mlz: but is neutrino better for bandwidth than zmq or whatever you use when you're not using neutrino?
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06:23 < Veggen> Just thinking about my setup when *I* want to run a lightning node in production (not yet, I will still wait until a stable beta meant for production)
06:23 < mlz> the bitcoin node has to have zmq and txindex, neutrino is just light lnd client..  
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06:24 < mlz> i would imagine in the future many people will run neutrino as their light client like spv wallets
06:24 < Veggen> So, with neutrino you don't validate TXes in LND and don't download blocks?
06:24 < Veggen> ...so you do save CPU and bandwith on your LND node?
06:25 < mlz> you don't have to run a bitcoin node if you can connect your neutrino to a dependable bitcoin fullnode somewhere
06:25 < mlz> i'm not sure if you can connect neutrino to just any bitcoin fullnode, from what i see, not right now
06:25 < Veggen> mlz: Sure, but I think that when I do it, I want to run my own full node :)
06:26 < mlz> yes, it'll be best if you run your own bitcoin fullnode, then connect your neutrino to it
06:26 < Veggen> ...but possibly with the node in the cloud. You can have a cloud server for next to nothing.
06:26 < mlz> yes i think so but where can you get a cloud server for next to nothing? 
06:26 < mlz> unless you work for data center?
06:27 < Veggen> well, ok. Depends on your measure of next to nothing.
06:27 < mlz> +a      
06:27 < Veggen> But I think you'd be fine with a cloud VPS for $10 a mont.
06:27 < Veggen> month.
06:27 < mlz> i guess so 
06:28 < Veggen> in my book, that is next to nothing.
06:28 < mlz> ah yes :P
06:28 < Veggen> ...and it's your LND setup that needs to be properly secured, right.
06:28 < mlz> yup     
06:29 < mlz> don't run lnd with --no-macaroons and --noencryptwallet, plus firewall setup, plus anything else to make it safe.. ? 
06:29 < Veggen> that's a given, I guess :)
06:30 < Veggen> how little hardware can you get away with running LND on?
06:31 < Veggen> Looking for something fanless, ideally.
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08:32 < BB-Martino> [14:10] <mlz> im wondering how BB-Martino got a new key if he didn't remove the wallet.db 
08:33 < BB-Martino> there we go. someone told me before that the keys for the cert were also used to generate the pubkey. it sounded weird but i believed it. it comes from wallet.db then. noted & thanks.
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13:26 < akihabara> is there any way to get snmp info off the nodes, in order to have better accuracy on the nodes state? like the uptime, the load, the bandwidth, the connection speed etc
13:26 < Veggen> not currently :)
13:27 < kim0> Howdy folks .. I'm trying to create a microtasks website that pays through lightning. But I'm not sure whether that's a good fit .. basically if I ask/teach my user start/fund a channel, my understanding is that I cannot pay them through it .. they'd have to "spend" some btc first to be able to receive any .. is that true ?
13:27 < Veggen> Someone could, I guess, create an LND node appliance who implemented that.
13:28 < Veggen> kim0: Not sure if that is a good fit currently, either :)
13:29 < kim0> mainly bec of the problem I described, or something else ?
13:29 < Veggen> kim0: wouldn't it have to be sort of custodial?
13:29 < kim0> mm not really
13:29 < kim0> the user fills a survey, and I pay them thru lightning
13:29 < kim0> for example
13:30 < Veggen> you pay, but are you the one who is needs and pay for the microtasks all the time?
13:30 < kim0> my main problem is .. my users would have to spend first, before being able to receive money from me .. correct ?
13:30 < kim0> yeah ... I'd run that website .. continuously paying people that do work on the website
13:30 < Veggen> kim0: yah, so currently that'd not be a good fit :) Not unless you had on-chain as an alternative.
13:31 < kim0> can u explain why it's not a good fit
13:31 < Veggen> well, hmm. I guess that it wouldn't be all that bad, either.
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13:32 < kim0> is there some workaround, to have a new lightning user with a fresh channel .. receive BTC  ?
13:32 < Veggen> kim0: yah, if you created the channel.
13:33 < kim0> me as in .. The website ? right
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13:34 < kim0> my main 2 problems with that are: 1- I don't wanna open as many channels as I have users 2- If I'm paying those users daily, I dont wanna lockup funds for paying them for a many months
13:34 < kim0> Ideally, I'd have one large channel, and I'm paying hundreds of people over it 
13:35 < mlz> have them open a channel with you and when they send you an invoice, you pay their invoice
13:35 < Veggen> then, you can only pay to people that are somewhat active from before and have funds on the other end of the channel. Sorry, doubt there is another way currently.
13:36 < Veggen> mlz: but...unless they push funds to the other end, you'd not be able to use it?
13:36 < mlz> kim0, or you open a channel with them
13:36 < mlz> if he opens channels with his customers, he can pay their invoices
13:37 < Veggen> mlz: yah, but then he'd have to open a lot of channels. He said he didn't want that.
13:37 < mlz> or he can set up a custodial wallet like htlc.me
13:38 < kim0> yeah, I wouldn't wanna open all those channels .. for the first option you mentioned
13:38 < kim0> my user would open a channel with the website, the user would fund the channel
13:38 < kim0> and yet, the website is able to pay the user's invoice ??
13:38 < kim0> i.e. payment is only flowing from website => to user 
13:39 < mlz> look at htlc.me to see if it's similar to your usecase
13:39 < kim0> I kinda was trying to dodge being custodial too :D
13:39 < mlz> well hire me and send me all your btc then i'll distribute it for you :P 
13:40 < kim0> haha
13:40 < kim0> It's a pity such a simple micropayment scenario is (probably) not a good fit for ln for some reason
13:40 < kim0> I can't quite put my hands onto why eevn
13:41 < mlz> kim0, but have you really looked at how LN works? 
13:41 < kim0> I have as much as I could
13:41 < lndbot> <djseeds> kim0 I don’t think it’s a bad fit for lightning, but maybe instead a bad fit for _early_ lightning
13:41 < mlz> i think we're barely scratching the surface for all usecases for LN
13:41 < kim0> been reading for many weeks now
13:42 < kim0> yeah .. I've read a user can open/fund a channel .. and rebalance it through another channel with himself .. but supposedly that is not ready in the current/early version of ln we have
13:43 < lndbot> <djseeds> With a more established network you should be able to pay your users with the funds you’ve already received over lightning from the people sponsoring the surveys
13:43 < kim0> Thanks .. to make my understanding a bit more solid .. could you please explain what limitation in the current impleemntation is the main limiting factor for me ?
13:46 < kim0> @djseeds .. really appreciating your help to deeply understand why I'm hitting those problems .. Thanks
13:46 < lndbot> <djseeds> I don’t think it’s a limitation of the current implementation but rather a limitation of the current (sparse with relatively-low activity) network. With a highly-connected and highly-active network there would be a much higher chance that the funds you’ve received through lightning could be routed to any given user.
13:48 < kim0> so for my use case to work well .. I would expect my users to already have existing channels to somewhere, where they have already spent some funds and are ready to receive some coins over (those channels) .. correct ?
13:49 < lndbot> <djseeds> Yeah I think that’s correct
13:49 < lndbot> <djseeds> I’m no expert though
13:50 < kim0> lightning account, was likened to a checking account .. and that was beautiful .. except that people would expect to receive money directly once the open that account .. not have to spend first :) 
13:50 < kim0> I too am not an expert .. and hitting those problems, my first guess is usually that I'm misunderstanding how this is supposed to work
13:51 < kim0> I'd appreciate an explanation from any experts around .. Thanks everyone for trying to help
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13:52 < Veggen> kim0: Most of the real experts have this as a day job, and I do hope that at least some of them have better to do during the weekends :)
13:53 < kim0> :)     
13:55 < lndbot> <djseeds> Sure I guess the checking analogy depends on the magnitude and direction. IMO the analogy fits, as I wouldn’t ever deposit 1 cent to my checking account or expect anyone else to direct-deposit 1 cent to my account either. So deposits would be me opening new channels and withdrawals would be closing those channels and payments would be payments in the network. Then the difference is added utility once you have those funds “deposited”, and the fac
13:55 < lndbot> spent can still be useful to you because they allow you to receive payments that would otherwise be impossible.
13:56 < akihabara> go 1.10 has been released
13:56 < akihabara> should we update?
13:57 < Veggen> go? yah, topic says go 1.10 is the recommended version. but I'd not recompile LND just because I upgraded go.
13:57 < Veggen> and I don't think I'd go to large troubles to upgrade go, either.
13:58 < akihabara> currently i have go 1.9.7
13:59 < akihabara> i mean 1.9.4
13:59 < mlz> if you upgrade go all you have to do for lnd is "go install . ./cmd/..." 
13:59 < akihabara> :P     
13:59 < akihabara> is it necessary though?
14:00 < Veggen> mlz: yah. But I, for example, have moved my source repository longer, and expect it'll break channels if I do that. I'd rather wait for the breaks roasbeef has announced is imminent :)
14:03 < Veggen> ....I actually was on a newer breaking version for a while that prevented channels to be reformed upon a restart, that I didn't realize I had upgraded to, so instead of closing, I rolled back and waits for roasbeef to close channels.
14:03 < Veggen> (i.e. his imminent wallet break ;)
14:04 < Veggen> ....I even have force-closed channels which were opened but never used, and with balance on my end.
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15:42 < mlz> i guess this will be merged soon?  https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/pull/714
15:43 < mlz> djseeds, do you know?
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16:01 < meshcollider> mlz: there have been some changes requested a few days ago and it needs a rebase so might not be "soon"
16:02 < meshcollider> although the comments look relatively minor
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16:27 < lndbot> <djseeds> Yeah I think he’s still working on it but hopefully soon 
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16:29 < mlz> ok, thanks, guys
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17:06 <@roasbeef> hmmm, might be an issue with golang 1.10 and a portion of the integration test framework 
17:06 <@roasbeef> is anyone able to run the integration tests udner go 1.10?
17:07  * roasbeef tries to downgrade to 1.9.5
17:08 <@roasbeef> 1.9.4*
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17:39 -github-lnd:#lnd- [lnd] Roasbeef opened pull request #769: multi: modify key derivation to be fully deterministic, remove p2pkh, wallet now witness only (master...new-lightning-key-derivation) https://git.io/vAlm2
17:43 < mlz> :thumbsup:
17:46 <@roasbeef> ^ will be a breaking db change after that's merged
17:46 <@roasbeef> final piece is finishing the new seed format stuffs 
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19:32 < BashCo> I’ve noticed that lnd will periodically prune zombie channels. What’s actually happening there? What defines a zombie channel?
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19:52 < rabidus> ping roasbeef 
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