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03:07 < jlamur> How do desktop / mobile wallets (i.e. node that are not running 24/7) ensure that time locked TXs are broadcasted before less profitable TXs become valid? Do they close channels when application exists? Is there any other solution?
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06:22 < lndtester11> evening, trying to get the web gui working but coming up with an error after generating new lnd certificates
06:22 < lndtester11> [lncli] rpc error: code = Internal desc = connection error: desc = "transport: authentication handshake failed: x509: certificate signed by unknown authority"
06:23 < lndtester11> maybe because i tried to generate them while lnd was running?
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06:33 < lndtester11> after following the commands to generate new certs from https://github.com/mably/lncli-web#generate-lnd-certificates-compatible-with-nodejs-grpc i cant access lnd node through lncli anymore either
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06:57 < lndtester11> also getting this error with lncli-web:
06:57 < lndtester11> info:    App listening on localhost port 8280
06:57 < lndtester11> (node:1539) DeprecationWarning: grpc.load: Use the @grpc/proto-loader module with grpc.loadPackageDefinition instead
06:57 < lndtester11> node: symbol lookup error: /home/bitcoin/lncli-web/node_modules/grpc/src/node/extension_binary/node-v57-linux-x64-glibc/grpc_node.node: undefined symbol: SSL_library_init
06:58 < RusAlex> it's impressive how LN is growing last days
07:00 < lndtester11> one dude put on like 8btc yesterday
07:01 < RusAlex> yes and even today in last one hr total capacity increased by 1 BTC
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07:38 < RusAlex> will different implementations of the BOLT compatible and use each other channels / nodes for routing and payments. or they will be locked in their own networks? 
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11:39 <@roasbeef> jlamur: background running, user prompts to open the app, or just lax enough time locks to give users ampl time to react 
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11:42 <@roasbeef> jlamur: less profitable as in breaches? or htlc time locks? 
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12:42 -github-lnd:#lnd- [lnd] Roasbeef pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/fNJiH
12:42 -github-lnd:#lnd- lnd/master a43d02f Olaoluwa Osuntokun: cmd/lncli: clarify help for push_amt in openchannel...
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15:34 < arrayz> restoring wallet to another machine on mainnet, i can see my wallets balance but the existing open channels don't show. synced_to_chain is true and its at latest block using a bitcoind. does it take some time for these open channels to show again?
15:35 < arrayz> when I check 1ml.com for example im able to see the open channels just don't see them from lncli
15:37 <@roasbeef> arrayz: what channels to show again? 
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15:37 <@roasbeef> if you restore the wallet, it's just on chain state
15:38 < arrayz> so before moving my node to new hardware I had 5 active open channels with other nodes
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15:39 < arrayz> so before i would invoke lncli getinfo
15:39 < arrayz> and i would see the 5 channels
15:39 < arrayz> also listchannels is now empty
15:39 < arrayz> expected to see the pre-existing channels
15:40 < arrayz> @roasbeef - I appreciate the help, and your great work in this project!
15:41 <@roasbeef> the seed it just on-chain derivation, channels have state which aren't included in the seed 
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15:42 < arrayz> got it, so are these channels gonna eventually be closed automatically? or is there a way to restore the state of the old node onto the new one?
15:45 <@roasbeef> you can go and close out those old channels if you'd like 
15:46 < arrayz> I would need to do that from the old node?
15:46 <@roasbeef> yes     
15:46 < arrayz> ok     
15:46 < arrayz> thanks again!
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15:58 < MrL> Hey, just trying out this queryroutes command. I should be able to query a circular route from Alice->Bob->Alice?
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17:40 <@roasbeef> MrL: no but you can use sendtoroute to execute that 
17:41 <@roasbeef> you can craft your own route basically 
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18:23 -github-lnd:#lnd- [lnd] wpaulino opened pull request #1527: htlcswitch: implement strict forwarding for locally dispatched payments (master...local-dispatch-strict-forwarding) https://git.io/fNUTL
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19:42 < MrL> roasbeef: Sorry for the late reply, just saw your message. Right, I was trying to pipe query routes into sendtoroute, so it's just that which I'm unable to do.
19:43 < MrL> I should be able to manually sendtoroute, and go alice->bob->alice
19:44 < MrL> I'll give it a shot in a minuite, I'm trying to diagnose this problem right now: https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/issues/1528
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19:57 < lndtester11> quick question: alice opens a channel of 1btc with bob. bob immediately opens a channel with alice for 1 btc. do i have 1 channel with 2 btc capacity or 2 channels with 1btc
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20:20 < MrL> lndtester: 2 channels
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20:32 < MrL> lndtester: This video is very good for getting the base understanding of how channels work, since they can be counter intuative when you've unfamiliar. Check it out: https://youtu.be/pOZaLbUUZUs
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22:19 < lndtester11> MrL, if that's the case then the manual dual funding that Fabrice was talking about here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2881&v=Cpid31c6HZc) is incorrect?
22:20 < lndtester11> as if their are 2 channels they would still be assymetric and not be able to send bitcoin to each other
22:20 < lndtester11> i'll watch the video too
22:23 < lndtester11> as in send bitcoin to each other through a mutually connected node (as in the video)
22:26 < molz> lndtester11, are you talking about 'dual funding' ?
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22:29 < lndtester11> yes but doing it manually (ie. alice opens a channel with bob, bob opens a channel with alice)
22:30 < lndtester11> or does it only work if you use push_amt
22:31 < lndtester11> obviously you have to do it manually now as there is no support for it in current implementations 
22:31 < molz> no, we don't have 'dual funding' currently
22:31 < lndtester11> yes I know, but Francise was talking about doing it manually in his building on bitcoin talk
22:31 < molz> what is 'manually'?
22:32 < lndtester11> alice opens a channel with bob, bob opens a channel with alic
22:32 -!- nodweber2 [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]     
22:32 < lndtester11> thats the acinq dev guy
22:32 < molz> if i open a channel with you, that's one channel, and then if you open a channel with me, that's another and separate channel
22:32 < molz> that video from Fabrice with that diagram is not helpful for newbies
22:33 < lndtester11> so it doesn't solve the issue at all unless you push some funds?
22:33 < molz> what issue?
22:33 < lndtester11> channel asymmetry
22:33 < molz> i would care less about 'channel assymetry' whatever it is
22:33 < lndtester11> this is all in the context of being a routing node 
22:34 < molz> if i open a channel to blockstream store, all i care is if i can pay to buy a hoodie
22:35 < molz> you have to keep in mind all these videos are for technical people
22:35 < lndtester11> i thought the problem of channel asymmetry was a well known one
22:35 < molz> so what?
22:35 < lndtester11> so i am trying to understand fabrice suggestion about how to manually solve it for now until the software handles it automagically
22:36 < molz> yea he's talking to technical people in the field, which is completely puzzling to newbies
22:37 < lndtester11> no i get it and understand the problem
22:37 < lndtester11> i knew the answer to his question of why alice couldnt pay bob
22:37 < lndtester11> i am just trying to implement his fix
22:38 < lndtester11> and wondering if opening recipricol channels solves it or i need to use push_amt in lnd
22:44 < molz> i'm watching that video, he's telling people the history
22:45 < lndtester11> it's not just history it's a current problem now too :P
22:45 < lndtester11> not part of the spec yet
22:45 < molz> where?
22:45 < molz> have you even had a node?
22:45 < molz> or seen one?
22:45 < lndtester11> i have a node
22:45 < molz> ok, what have you done with it?
22:45 < lndtester11> just played around on testnet
22:46 < lndtester11> drew some dick pics
22:46 < lndtester11> read some on yalls
22:46 < lndtester11> etc     
22:46 < molz> so you could send payments?
22:46 < lndtester11> i am looking at this from a routing node perspective
22:47 < lndtester11> if you are ever able to actually make money on the network you need to maximise your ability to send and receive funds
22:47 < molz> if you want to do routing for other people's payments, sure, you need to have some liquidity on the other side of channels you created
22:48 < molz> currently there's hardly any money to make on the network from "routing"
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22:48 < molz> you need to set up at least 3 nodes and test out this "routing" to see
22:48 < lndtester11> i saw a post claiming 5% in 2 weeks with $2000 investment
22:49 < molz> oh gosh
22:49 < lndtester11> wouldnt be expecting that much
22:49 < lndtester11> would be happy ecstatic with 1% a month
22:49 < lndtester11> 0.2% would be fine
22:50 < molz> don't get into lightning if all you care is following scams
22:50 < lndtester11> what?
22:50 < molz> that post is a bait for some scam
22:50 < Veggen> I think routing nodes as such won't be a thing for extremely long time.
22:51 < Veggen> if ever.
22:51 < lndtester11> dude i am just trying to understand best way to maximise routing liquidity for my personal node
22:51 < lndtester11> then setting one up with $1k or so and see what happens
22:51 < Veggen> people will connect to the nodes they need to pay. And if they can pay everyone through the first, and it always works, then that's the channel they will have.
22:51 < lndtester11> would have thought people would be jumping to help people willing to put money in to increased liquity/routing
22:52 < lndtester11> i understand in the future this will mostly be automated
22:52 < lndtester11> with the autopilot feature
22:52 < Veggen> i don't think we have a liquidity problem as such now.
22:52 < Veggen> it's fine as it is at this stage.
22:52 < lndtester11> it could be better, have had payments fail
22:53 < Veggen> yup.
22:53 < lndtester11> nothing catostrophic
22:53 < Veggen> but AMP will help a lot too.
22:53 < lndtester11> yes i understand
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22:53 < Veggen> I manually split up 1M satoshi in 4*250k and all of them worked fine.
22:53 < lndtester11> what does your fee report look like?
22:53 < Veggen> (the first 1M satoshi payment failed)
22:54 < Veggen> I hardly route transactions.
22:54 < Veggen> 292 in total :)
22:54 < lndtester11> probably because of asymmetry!
22:54 < lndtester11> not want to try fiddle with it and see if you can increase it?
22:54 < lndtester11> by manually balancing channels
22:54 < Veggen> yup, could be. Gonne experiment with channel rebalancing soonsh.
22:54 < molz> lndtester11, this blog was written by rusty, one of well known LN devs, will help to answer your question:  https://medium.com/@rusty_lightning/bitcoin-lightning-things-to-know-e5ea8d84369f
22:55 < lndtester11> yes that's all i am after, some help with opening and balancing channels
22:55 < molz> lndtester11, read the part under "Can I Make Money Running a Lightning Node?"
22:56 < lndtester11> doesnt negate anything. and in any race to the bottom, the people who get in earliest make the most
22:56 < lndtester11> once this is all automated i doubt there will be anything to make
22:57 < molz> lmao
22:57 < lndtester11> there is 0 opportunity cost
22:57 < molz> you have no clue what you're talking about
22:57 < lndtester11> so why not try
22:57 < lndtester11> i am here to try maximise routing fees
22:58 < lndtester11> not saying its going to be profitable, i just want to see what is possible
22:59 < molz> it's short sight to only see fees in lightning
23:00 < lndtester11> opposite of short sighted
23:00 < lndtester11> whoever said i only see fees
23:01 < molz> that's all you've been asking/talking about since you show up here
23:01 < lndtester11> i am a merchant too and there is no reason i shouldnt maximise my routing earnings if any are to be had
23:01 < molz> and no matter what others try to tell you, you argue 
23:01 < lndtester11> dude you didnt even understand what was meant by channel asymmetry
23:01 < molz> oh now you're 'a merchant too', okay
23:02 < molz> i understood what 'channel asymetry' was, i was wondering where you were going with it, dude
23:02 < lndtester11> being a merchant has nothing to do with trying to maximise routing 
23:02 < molz> lmao
23:02 < molz> ok this convo is over
23:02 < lndtester11> if i am going to have a channel
23:02 < lndtester11> a node*
23:04 < lndtester11> Veggen, how are you planning to approach channel balancing?
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