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00:12 -github-neutrino:#lnd- [neutrino] rawtxapp closed pull request #76: early draft: batch filter fetch (master...batch-filter-fetch) https://git.io/fNYPR
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02:55 -github-lnd:#lnd- [lnd] ZapUser77 opened pull request #1652: Update pathfind.go to allow sending to self (master...master) https://git.io/fN21A
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09:41 < waxwing> so am i right in saying the on-chain 'sendcoins' coin selection algo is different than the lightning funding tx coin selection algo? the latter seems to be random (select any from available, then keep going until enough), the former seems to be 'start from largest'.
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10:12 < molz> Lightning Labs is hiring, if any engineers here would be interested:  https://twitter.com/lightning/status/1022497438039515136
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11:20 <@roasbeef> waxwing: they're pretty similar, but yeh they use diff code paths 
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11:22 <@roasbeef> for funding tx, it isn't random, just sorts in order "largest first" and goes from there on 
11:23 <@roasbeef> some fee details are diff tho 
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11:25 < waxwing> oh, so they're both largest first?
11:25 < waxwing> it's good for merge avoidance but tends to lead to dustiness i think
11:25 < waxwing> roasbeef, ^
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11:26 <@roasbeef> oh yeah i'm aware it's sub-optimal, but atm, it "works" ;) 
11:27 < waxwing> only observing it because i was following the code flow for on-chain payments (investigating circs under which coinjoin workflows might make any sense here)
11:27 <@roasbeef> tons of stuff could be done in that area 
11:27 < waxwing> yeah understood, just sanity checking
11:27 <@roasbeef> yeh iirc there's an issue up to essentially add a streaming RPC to allow users to shove in their excess change into channels 
11:28 <@roasbeef> coin join when? opening, closing, sweeping? 
11:28 <@roasbeef> or just in generl for on chian transactions? 
11:28 < waxwing> one thing i've observed is the underlying btcd stuff is all designed with a very "wrapped" model: calling code only provides outputs, txs are built under the hood so you have to go kind of deep if you want to support partial signing
11:29 < waxwing> yeah i actually was investigating a snicker-style model, where you opportunistically send people joins. it seems to make the most sense coming out of closes, but otoh it seems a lot more natural to try to support join-with-fund for more than one channel (but that requires coordination, which is a bit yuck)
11:30 <@roasbeef> mhmm that's correct re wrapping, if it were to be done, it could be done at a higher level just to make integration simpler 
11:30 < waxwing> maybe it'd be good to just start by getting partial signing (and PSBT) supported in a general sense before worrying about exactly how it gets used
11:30 <@roasbeef> signing is already exposed, and so is fetching utxos and locking them, so all you need to do ad hod coin joins, yet still have the wallet take care of all the on chain tracking, etc 
11:31 <@roasbeef> oooo, that'd be dope
11:31 <@roasbeef> would put that into btcutil probably 
11:31 <@roasbeef> not suuper familiar with the internals myself, but would review anything you're working on if you're heading in taht direction 
11:31 <@roasbeef> waxwing: snicker style? 
11:31 < waxwing> ok, thanks. will keep reading.
11:31 < waxwing> roasbeef, https://joinmarket.me/blog/blog/snicker
11:32 < waxwing> the tldr is to send encrypted transaction proposals to some bulletin board that someone can pick up, decrypt, complete-sign and broadcast.
11:32 < waxwing> it's a funky idea, but .. interactivity is a complete pain
11:33 < waxwing> still many ways to skin the cat or whatever that saying is
11:35 <@roasbeef> ahh yeh 
11:35 <@roasbeef> ah so this is trying to make it non-interactive? 
11:35 <@roasbeef> so anyone looking to make a tx, looks at the board and fetches what's there and combines with a tx they're already about to amke? 
11:36 < waxwing> yeah; the idea is that what's on the "board" (tbd) is encrypted to your key.
11:36 < waxwing> there are obvious problems with that in terms of scaling and avoiding dos (at the bulletin board); that's discussed a bit in the post.
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11:38 < waxwing> receiver side code/logic can be fairly simple; it's only the proposer that has to scan and look for candidates.
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11:41 <@roasbeef> pay to post, etc could help out a bit, payment could also be over channels so a clear link doesn't exist between payer and the joins, or any other utxos related to the payer 
11:41 < waxwing> yes. it's a good application for chaumian tokens maybe.
11:41 < waxwing> or like that cloudflare thing you pointed me at (which was quite cool i thought)
11:41 <@roasbeef> assuming all this is behind the scenes, is the interaction of coin join really that bad? 
11:41 <@roasbeef> idk i guess i've only seen darkwallet really get close as in when they tried to do that whle background join thing 
11:42 <@roasbeef> were there issues re interaction in join market? 
11:42 < waxwing> it just depends i think. you find yourself having to jump through hoops to avoid malicious behaviour. one annoying thing is the race condition: who provides their utxos first?
11:42 <@roasbeef> hmmm
11:42 < waxwing> umm you could say :) we used podle tokens to rate limit one side; the other side is still somewhat of an open problem
11:42 < waxwing> i think you *could* imagine in lightning, discovering peers when creating chans; but folding that into LN itself seems .. dodgy, maybe?
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11:43 < waxwing> and you would have to address the problem of malicious people trying to gain info by faking it (as in all these interactive coinjoin models).
11:44 < waxwing> not saying it can't be done, of course. as for dark wallet, or in near future samourai or wasabi, sure: you can use a server with banning power to help (and just helps to find peers). but it's a tradeoff.
11:44 <@roasbeef> well imo would be another "layer" above in a sense, so not like first class, but we have some like streaming RPC that allows the bridge to w/e this thing looks like to instruct lnd to add an extra input/output to the funding transactions, etc 
11:45 <@roasbeef> what's your take on wasabi? from my PoV, dude has been talking it up for a year or so now, but is he actually above to deliver? and also it seems rather concentrated and easy to DoS, etc? 
11:45 <@roasbeef> and idk feels like anything going forward shuold have _some_ sort of a join market design component 
11:45 <@roasbeef> what's the name of that paper that anaylyzed the usage of join market?
11:45 < waxwing> well i saw the wallet, and indeed their first mainnet join test worked fine; i think it'll be up and running, yes. but it was a non-trivial piece of work.
11:46 <@roasbeef> by like moeser
11:46 <@roasbeef> found it
11:46 <@roasbeef> https://weis2016.econinfosec.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/05/WEIS_2016_paper_58.pdf
11:46 < waxwing> roasbeef, well there's been i think 2 papers. the first was moser, yes, that was in some detail, the second was the narayanan (and moser is in the group), which included joinmarket as part of overall analysis.
11:48 < waxwing> yeah. the critique in there of the market model, i think, was slightly off-point, but overall there was a lot of useful analysis. i think it's correct to argue that "a market approach to coordinating coinjoin" does make sense, but the real problem is doing things fully p2p creates very difficult to solve DOS/snooping type problems, if it's at scale.
11:48 < waxwing> sybil problems, let's say
11:52 -github-lnd:#lnd- [lnd] Roasbeef pushed 3 new commits to master: https://git.io/fNa6D
11:52 -github-lnd:#lnd- lnd/master f73a2f3 Johan T. Halseth: lnd_test: correct that Bob can sweep immediately...
11:52 -github-lnd:#lnd- lnd/master 45a1fa5 Johan T. Halseth: lnd_test: check close status also for force closes...
11:52 -github-lnd:#lnd- lnd/master 205a323 Olaoluwa Osuntokun: Merge pull request #1582 from halseth/lnd-test-assert-waiting-close...
11:53 <@roasbeef> as in, have more set identities to make it harder to someone to instantly enter and start launchign attacks? 
11:54 <@roasbeef> dunno how you'd like make it _less_, p2p, as from my understanding users jsut use IRC or w/e as a meeting point, and then interact with each othe rfrom there
11:54 <@roasbeef> you have a link to that other one? 
11:55 < waxwing> https://arxiv.org/pdf/1708.04748.pdf ; it uses the JM algo to identify mixing and analyses it a little bit (but ofc most of the paper is about other stuff)
11:57 < waxwing> see the section on Cluster Intersection Attack, and appendix A. actually i haven't read it super-carefully
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11:59 < waxwing> re: p2p and identities, yes, i kind of discard the use of an IRC server (we use multiple redundant), biggest difference is nobody is constructing the tx from a central server (as is done in chaumian-server style), so only the participants see anything. in theory. fully p2p (at network) is possible too ofc
11:59 < waxwing> more persistent identities is possible, but people are kinda against that. maybe they shouldn't be, not sure.
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13:45 -github-lnd:#lnd- [lnd] Roasbeef opened pull request #1655: routing: ensure generateSphinxPacket can handle being passed empty set of routes (master...send-to-route-defense) https://git.io/fNa7Q
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15:57 -07IADG2KS:#lnd- [lnd] Roasbeef closed pull request #1655: routing: ensure generateSphinxPacket can handle being passed empty set of routes (master...send-to-route-defense) https://git.io/fNa7Q
15:57 -17SAAJAB7:#lnd- [lnd] Roasbeef pushed 3 new commits to master: https://git.io/fNVvU
15:57 -17SAAJAB7:#lnd- lnd/master c903a9a Olaoluwa Osuntokun: routing: add new TestEmptyRoutesGenerateSphinxPacket test
15:57 -17SAAJAB7:#lnd- lnd/master a6c8140 Olaoluwa Osuntokun: routing: exit gracefully if generateSphinxPacket is passed a nil set of hops
15:57 -17SAAJAB7:#lnd- lnd/master 2e6e2a0 Olaoluwa Osuntokun: Merge pull request #1655 from Roasbeef/send-to-route-defense...
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18:38 -github-lnd:#lnd- [lnd] cfromknecht opened pull request #1657: discovery/gossiper: copy bolt key to prevent panic (master...resend-ann-copy-key) https://git.io/fNVt5
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20:43 -github-neutrino:#lnd- [neutrino] Roasbeef pushed 3 new commits to master: https://git.io/fNV3Q
20:43 -github-neutrino:#lnd- neutrino/master 6ecf8da Olaoluwa Osuntokun: blockmanager: ensure cfheader queries account for skipping genesis header...
20:43 -github-neutrino:#lnd- neutrino/master be7b11a Olaoluwa Osuntokun: neutrino: ensure goroutines in wait loop always unlock on quit read
20:43 -github-neutrino:#lnd- neutrino/master ba5f970 Olaoluwa Osuntokun: blockmanager: use goroutine to continually broadcast to ensure waiters exit...
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21:16 -github-lnd:#lnd- [lnd] cfromknecht opened pull request #1658: [server]: Start Peers Asynchronously (master...async-peer-start) https://git.io/fNVs1
21:41 -github-neutrino:#lnd- [neutrino] Roasbeef pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/fNVGL
21:41 -github-neutrino:#lnd- neutrino/master 188db97 Olaoluwa Osuntokun: blockmanager: simplify IsCurrent() by just using syncPeerMutex...
21:48 -github-lnd:#lnd- [lnd] cfromknecht opened pull request #1659: htlcswitch/link: conditional batch ticker (master...link-suppress-batch-ticker) https://git.io/fNVGc
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23:26 -github-lnd:#lnd- [lnd] halseth pushed 2 new commits to master: https://git.io/fNVCZ
23:26 -github-lnd:#lnd- lnd/master 54c4b09 Conner Fromknecht: discovery/gossiper: copy bolt key to prevent panic...
23:26 -github-lnd:#lnd- lnd/master c48ecb8 Johan T. Halseth: Merge pull request #1657 from cfromknecht/resend-ann-copy-key...
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23:41 -github-lnd:#lnd- [lnd] cfromknecht opened pull request #1660: channeldb/db: return all channels if multiple chains exist (master...fetch-allll-channels) https://git.io/fNVWO
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