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[~farmerwam@162.219.178.10] has joined #lnd 10:49 -!- ekiro [~ekiro@unaffiliated/ekiro] has joined #lnd 10:56 -!- thomasan_ [~thomasand@172.83.40.67] has joined #lnd 10:57 -!- ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-epsaffsdrcesbwvj] has joined #lnd 11:00 -!- ekiro [~ekiro@unaffiliated/ekiro] has quit [Quit: ekiro] 11:00 -!- Dean_Guss [~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has joined #lnd 11:09 -!- melvin_ [~melvin@ip-86-49-18-190.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:11 -!- melvster [~melvin@ip-86-49-18-190.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lnd 11:20 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #lnd 11:33 -!- DeanWeen [~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has joined #lnd 11:33 -!- Dean_Guss [~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:44 -!- ekiro [~ekiro@unaffiliated/ekiro] has joined #lnd 11:45 -!- thomasan_ [~thomasand@172.83.40.67] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:56 -!- ddustin 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[~farmerwam@162.219.178.10] has quit [Client Quit] 12:38 -!- farmerwampum [~farmerwam@162.219.178.10] has joined #lnd 12:38 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:13 -!- manantial [~tecnecio@unaffiliated/manantial] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:18 -!- DeanWeen [~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:36 -!- ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-epsaffsdrcesbwvj] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 13:37 -!- ekiro [~ekiro@unaffiliated/ekiro] has joined #lnd 13:40 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #lnd 13:47 < e4xit> are the any plans for lnd to support plugins in a similar way to that of c-lightning? 13:48 < lndbot> You can use the gRPC API to interact with LND, do you have a use-case you are thinking about specifically? 14:22 -!- ekiro [~ekiro@unaffiliated/ekiro] has quit [Quit: ekiro] 14:29 -!- libertyprime [~libertypr@101.98.42.91] has joined #lnd 14:42 -!- libertyprime [~libertypr@101.98.42.91] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:59 -!- libertyprime [~libertypr@185.86.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has joined #lnd 15:00 -!- pioklo [~Pioklo@118-40.echostar.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:13 -!- libertyprime [~libertypr@185.86.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 15:15 <@roasbeef> e4xit: i don't really get the plugin thing for c-lihgtning, you can already use gRPC or REST to make things on top of lnd 15:36 -!- Talkless [~Talkless@hst-227-49.splius.lt] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:42 -!- ekiro [~ekiro@unaffiliated/ekiro] has joined #lnd 15:47 -!- ekiro [~ekiro@unaffiliated/ekiro] has quit [Quit: ekiro] 15:50 -!- dermoth [~dermoth@gateway/tor-sasl/dermoth] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:50 -!- dermoth [~dermoth@gateway/tor-sasl/dermoth] has joined #lnd 15:51 -!- EagleTM [~EagleTM@unaffiliated/eagletm] has joined #lnd 16:00 -!- aielima [~aielima@gateway/tor-sasl/aielima] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:01 -!- EagleTM [~EagleTM@unaffiliated/eagletm] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:12 -!- CODER82 [3ecb8c79@gateway/web/freenode/ip.62.203.140.121] has joined #lnd 16:12 < CODER82> Is it possible to used the pruned version of bitcoind with lnd? Will it work? 16:12 < CODER82> I mean, setting prune to 550 16:13 < molz> if you want to lose money, sure 16:16 < CODER82> :D 16:16 < CODER82> why 16:18 < lndbot> The pruned version will have problems with full rescans and it will silently fail when validating older channel graph updates 16:18 < lndbot> Prune on is not supported or tested 16:18 < CODER82> I see, so what's advisable if I want to run a light client? 16:20 < gmaxwell> alexbosworth: whats the plan for fixing that? preventing pruning isn't a viable long term strategy. 16:20 < molz> we have a light client named "lightning-app" in testing, soon will be on mainnet 16:20 < molz> oh hi gmaxwell, good to see you here :D 16:20 < gmaxwell> (nor is forcing people to abandon validation) 16:20 < lndbot> I don’t know of a plan to fix it 16:21 < lndbot> For lite mode Neutrino is planned 16:21 < molz> i wouldn't run a pruned bitcoin node for lightning or not 16:21 < gmaxwell> molz: eventually thats the only thing people will realistically be able to do, 16:21 < lndbot> Normally I run pruned mode, I used to use it with lnd, but it has problems with the older graph updates that require a random access to validate the gossip 16:21 < molz> i'm running non pruned nodes for mainnet and testnet, real money and play money 16:22 < lndbot> Probably we can support pruned mode with a combination of the max htlc feature and with the unspent utxo set lookup calls 16:22 < molz> gmaxwell, i know pruned nodes work for some people but currently i'm not using them 16:22 < molz> i want to use non pruned nodes as long as i can 16:22 < gmaxwell> molz: why? 16:23 < gmaxwell> alexbosworth: Makes sense, okay. 16:24 < lndbot> lnd would probably also have to control pruning directly in order to not lose track of any intermediate history that would be pruned away if lnd were offline 16:24 -!- libertyprime [~libertypr@101.98.42.91] has joined #lnd 16:25 * midnightmagic will for the foreseeable future run a full node. 16:25 * midnightmagic doesn't think many people will be able to run a full archival node in 10-20 years. 16:25 < molz> gmaxwell, because i still don't see the need for a pruned node 16:26 < molz> now some people do have this need and it works for them, it's fine if that's what it is, but for lightning, we're still in a very early stage , a lot of things are still under testing, i don't think running a pruned node is wise 16:27 < midnightmagic> Longer term I wonder if there'll be a switchover point where people just sign something that asserts they validated the node. 16:27 < midnightmagic> er. blockchain. 16:28 < molz> people who run btcpay servers are told to run pruned nodes and i've seen someone who couldn't get node upgraded when we had an upgrade the last time 16:28 < molz> (lnd node) 16:28 < gmaxwell> molz: what? 16:28 < gmaxwell> oh lnd node. 16:28 < lndbot> Yeah, the wallet couldn’t run the rescans 16:29 < lndbot> There was a migration that required a rescan 16:29 < molz> and yesterday i saw nicolas's issue for c-lightning, an issue for someone who's also running btcpay server and his c-lightning node kept crashing due to the pruned bitcoind node 16:29 < molz> let me find it 16:29 < gmaxwell> In any case, these are limitations in lnd and c-lightning that need to get fixed eventually. 16:30 < gmaxwell> You cannot expect users in the long run to have non-pruned nodes. Expecting users to spend weeks synchronizing and transfering hundreds of gigs of data is an enormous barrier to entry. 16:30 < lndbot> neutrino will help I guess 16:30 < CODER82> how do I point lnd to use a public node? 16:30 < molz> here's the issue: https://github.com/ElementsProject/lightning/issues/2250 16:30 < lndbot> to start obvs 16:31 < gmaxwell> joaoalmeida: yes depending on centeralized servers makes lots of things easier... 16:31 < lndbot> Neutrino can be a pretty good solution, it requires an index that isn’t too big. The issues with Neutrino are authenticating your node and figuring out how to sync the mempool 16:31 < molz> jb55 said, "clightning has a hard time keeping up on initial or catch-up sync because the getblock rpc is veryyyyy slow. This is the main reason pruned nodes aren't very reliable with clightning at the moment. clightning fetches the blocks one by one, slowly, which tends to fall behind bitcoin sync which is really fast. I don't think there's a way to get around this at the moment..." 16:32 < gmaxwell> molz: https://github.com/ElementsProject/lightning/issues/2250#issuecomment-453792030 16:33 < gmaxwell> alexbosworth: I'm doubtful of that, whats going to serve those indexs? serving it will require non-pruned servers. 16:33 < lndbot> In theory anything can serve it, even other lite-nodes 16:33 < gmaxwell> And I am making the point that in the long run you should not expect those to be so liberally available. 16:33 < CODER82> lnd only supports connecting to a local bitcoind? 16:34 < gmaxwell> alexbosworth: the filter without the block isn't so useful. :) 16:36 -!- DeanWeen [~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has joined #lnd 16:36 < lndbot> I don’t know if there is a plan for how to deal with it, but it should be fairly narrowly scoped because this is a job of serving static files and not executing queries 16:37 < lndbot> Initially Neutrino’s mode for blocks is to just use the standard p2p protocol 16:38 < lndbot> Maybe in the future nodes won’t be too happy being block storage services and clients will need another option 16:39 < gmaxwell> In the future (say on the 10y) horizon, you probably shouldn't assume that nodes that have and will serve historical blocks will be any more common than say electrum servers today. 16:40 < gmaxwell> I think Bitcoin's long term viability requires the default node configuration to be pruned and pruned bootstrap, probably sometime within the next two years. 16:41 < molz> oh cool.. gmaxwell, could you help with c-lightning now? and i'm asking this is second time :P 16:41 < gmaxwell> It would still probably take a long time for archive nodes to become uncommon, but it seems inadvisable to make long term protocol decisions on an assumption that random access to historical blocks will be liberally available. 16:41 < molz> +you 16:41 < gmaxwell> molz: what? 16:41 < gmaxwell> I don't have any interest in helping with c-lightning. 16:42 -!- Soopaman1 [~soopaman@cpe-70-122-225-218.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lnd 16:42 -!- DeanWeen is now known as DeanGuss 16:42 < lndbot> There may be some mirroring of chain data into LN protocol itself 16:43 -!- Soopaman1 [~soopaman@cpe-70-122-225-218.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 16:44 < lndbot> You could split up the blocks in a random array to minimize individual storage cost and potentially even buy blocks from peers or limit block transmission only to channel peers. I think there’s also some ways to reduce Neutrino’s requirements for as much block downloading as it will do initially 16:45 < lndbot> The gossip may contain totally self-contained proofs against a known good chain tip 16:46 < gmaxwell> needing access to the UTXO set is much more reasonable, though sipa thinks its at least somewhat likely that in the future most nodes won't have the full utxo set either. 16:47 < gmaxwell> at least that is a couple orders of magnitude more realistic. 16:48 < gmaxwell> Distributed copies are easy to wave arms at but end up with a lot of engineering challenges, e.g. how do you deal with locating the data you need or prevent someone from DOS attacking the small portion of nodes that have a particular block to prevent access to it. There are solutions known to these things, but they're not exactly trivial. 16:54 < molz> gmaxwell, they need help from C experts 17:17 -!- ekiro [~ekiro@unaffiliated/ekiro] has joined #lnd 17:21 -!- ekiro [~ekiro@unaffiliated/ekiro] has quit [Client Quit] 17:24 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:29 <@roasbeef> gmaxwell: plans to enable pruning is just fall back to p2p network if block isn't found, if bitcoind gets manual pruning rpcs then we can use those to either enforce not pruning past a block, or only pruning when directed 17:31 <@roasbeef> well enable pruning in a foolproof manner, you can do it right now but then there're edge cases where things can fall apart 17:36 <@roasbeef> we can prob even start to get gettxoutproof in some cases 17:38 -!- Kostenko [~Kostenko@185.183.106.227] has joined #lnd 17:40 < Kostenko> hello! I need a tip about to set a fee rate when using c-lightning, lightning-cli withdraw destination satoshi [feerate] like lightning-cli withdraw bcxxxxxxxxx... 10000 but this uses the optimal fee rate. How I set like 1sat per kb. Sorry If I am in the wrong channel for this. It is my first time. 17:41 < buZz> #c-lightning is the channel for that client :) 18:06 -!- ekiro [~ekiro@unaffiliated/ekiro] has joined #lnd 18:32 -!- ekiro [~ekiro@unaffiliated/ekiro] has quit [Quit: ekiro] 18:50 < Kostenko> tks 18:50 < Kostenko> buZz, tks 18:50 -!- melvster [~melvin@ip-86-49-18-190.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:21 < gmaxwell> roasbeef: bitcoind has manual pruning rpcs for over two years now. 19:22 < gmaxwell> roasbeef: one of the reasons I'm whining is to make sure you know this, and also offer to help improve it, if it has some shortcoming that is preventing its use. 19:34 -!- Dean_Guss [~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has joined #lnd 19:34 -!- DeanGuss [~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:55 -!- Styil [Styil@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/styil] has joined #lnd 20:46 -!- dongcarl [sid321684@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bjywumazibhiditc] has joined #lnd 20:48 -!- libertyprime [~libertypr@101.98.42.91] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:25 -!- bitdex [~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:26 -!- bitdex [~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex] has joined #lnd 21:38 -!- dermoth [~dermoth@gateway/tor-sasl/dermoth] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:38 -!- dermoth_ [~dermoth@gateway/tor-sasl/dermoth] has joined #lnd 21:38 -!- dermoth_ is now known as dermoth 22:00 -!- melvster [~melvin@ip-86-49-18-190.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lnd 22:22 -!- manantial [~tecnecio@92.58.58.54] has joined #lnd 22:22 -!- manantial [~tecnecio@92.58.58.54] has quit [Changing host] 22:22 -!- manantial [~tecnecio@unaffiliated/manantial] has joined #lnd 22:38 -!- manantial [~tecnecio@unaffiliated/manantial] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:46 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #lnd