--- Day changed Sun Feb 24 2019 00:37 -!- melvster [~melvin@ip-86-49-18-190.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:47 -!- Talkless [~Talkless@hst-227-49.splius.lt] has joined #lnd 01:56 -!- Eagle[TM] [~EagleTM@unaffiliated/eagletm] has joined #lnd 01:58 -!- EagleTM [~EagleTM@unaffiliated/eagletm] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:15 -!- hamess [~hamess@unaffiliated/hamess] has joined #lnd 02:21 -!- aerth [~aerth@gateway/tor-sasl/aerth] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:22 -!- aerth [~aerth@gateway/tor-sasl/aerth] has joined #lnd 02:27 -!- Eagle[TM] [~EagleTM@unaffiliated/eagletm] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 03:09 -!- angelonE is now known as angelone 03:16 -!- Butta [1f9fea2a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.31.159.234.42] has joined #lnd 03:16 -!- Butta [1f9fea2a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.31.159.234.42] has quit [Client Quit] 04:16 -!- melvster [~melvin@ip-86-49-18-190.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lnd 05:29 -!- cluelessperson [~cluelessp@unaffiliated/cluelessperson] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:33 -!- cluelessperson [~cluelessp@unaffiliated/cluelessperson] has joined #lnd 05:56 -!- bitdex [~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex] has joined #lnd 06:25 -!- EagleTM [~EagleTM@unaffiliated/eagletm] has joined #lnd 06:36 -!- EagleTM [~EagleTM@unaffiliated/eagletm] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:36 -!- EagleTM [~EagleTM@unaffiliated/eagletm] has joined #lnd 06:36 -!- EagleTM [~EagleTM@unaffiliated/eagletm] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:33 -!- randohm [5587ba48@gateway/web/freenode/ip.85.135.186.72] has joined #lnd 07:34 < randohm> How do I load docker from lnd.conf? I had set up things in lnd.conf, but when I launch docker, it does not looks like it's reading it. 07:43 -!- rls [~rls@104.250.122.134] has joined #lnd 07:51 < molz> no idea, probably not ready to be used 08:02 < randohm> I figured it out. Problem is that you need to access lnd --help somehow to actually configure this 08:30 -!- randohm [5587ba48@gateway/web/freenode/ip.85.135.186.72] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:40 < Talkless> Ugh I want AMP so much :/ 08:40 < Talkless> Can't pay 3 euros to Bitrefill. Tried 11 - nope. 5 - nope. 3 - yes, two times, now it's timeout for 1minute of not finding routes 08:42 < Talkless> I have two channels with local balance of ~1.1mil. sat, can't pay ~100k 08:42 < Talkless> total local balance* 09:08 < molz> yea we need AMP 09:09 < lndbot> You could also consider your channel selection 09:09 < molz> how? 09:09 < lndbot> Bitrefill is well connected so if two channels can’t find it, it’s possible those channels were chosen poorly 09:10 < molz> most channels are considered "poorly" because they have 'capacity', not 'liquidity', most people think if they just park their coins they can route for you and charge you a fee, which is a falacy 09:12 < molz> Talkless, you can always pay onchain if you need to 09:12 < Talkless> yes but it's not as cool :) 09:12 < molz> practicality > coolness :P 09:13 < molz> i paid onchain to bitrefill last time 09:13 < Talkless> I need to bump channel balance, gonna get some satoshis from Bisq and create some with autopilot. 1mil. sat is really tiny ammout, and split in two channels.. 09:13 < molz> let the clueless keep hanging their coins on those useless channels, i'll go onchain 09:13 < Talkless> well it WOUND'NT BE TINY IF BITCOIN WOULDN'T DROP >2x from ~10k :D, but let's leave this topic... 09:15 -!- peleion [~jeff@76.73.184.14] has joined #lnd 09:17 < lndbot> talkless can always just deposit into our account 3 euros at a time lol 09:18 < lndbot> poor man's centralized amp 09:18 < Talkless> justin I did, twice, but third attempt failed.. and then payinvoice froze.. and I just gonna probably pain onchain. 09:18 < Talkless> pay* 09:22 -!- peleion [~jeff@76.73.184.14] has left #lnd [] 09:23 -!- peleion [~jeff@76.73.184.14] has joined #lnd 09:28 -!- rlsy [~rls@104.250.122.134] has joined #lnd 09:29 -!- rls [~rls@104.250.122.134] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:47 -!- peleion [~jeff@76.73.184.14] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:48 -!- peleion [~jeff@76.73.184.14] has joined #lnd 09:52 -!- peleion [~jeff@76.73.184.14] has quit [Client Quit] 09:52 -!- peleion [~jeff@76.73.184.14] has joined #lnd 10:07 < lndbot> talkless try again, seems had some issues with our node 10:07 < Talkless> justin onchain transaction is already pending :/ 10:07 < Talkless> Ugh I could refill more theough, why not. 10:12 < Talkless> justin payinvoice does not freeze any more, though I still have path finding problem. 10:14 < lndbot> just had a 50 usd lightning payment came in, odd, probably the nodes you've created chans to 10:35 -!- Talkless [~Talkless@hst-227-49.splius.lt] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 10:37 -!- pioklo [~Pioklo@118-40.echostar.pl] has joined #lnd 10:47 -!- pinkTiger_ [~pinkTiger@174-16-164-138.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lnd 10:50 -!- pinkTiger [pinkTiger@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/pinktiger] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:09 -!- gkrizek6 [~gkrizek@ec2-34-222-229-197.us-west-2.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #lnd 11:10 -!- gkrizek6 [~gkrizek@ec2-34-222-229-197.us-west-2.compute.amazonaws.com] has quit [Client Quit] 11:12 -!- gkrizek4 [~gkrizek@ec2-34-222-229-197.us-west-2.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #lnd 11:12 -!- gkrizek4 [~gkrizek@ec2-34-222-229-197.us-west-2.compute.amazonaws.com] has quit [Client Quit] 11:13 -!- MrPaz [~MrPaz@84.39.112.92] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:44 -!- gkrizek [~gkrizek@ec2-34-222-229-197.us-west-2.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #lnd 12:00 -!- kexkey [~kexkey@173.209.60.36] has joined #lnd 12:48 -!- libertyprime [~libertypr@101.98.42.91] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 13:02 -!- bitdex [~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex] has quit [Quit: = ""] 13:30 -!- StopAndDecrypt [~StopAndDe@unaffiliated/stopanddecrypt] has joined #lnd 14:04 -!- dermoth [~dermoth@gateway/tor-sasl/dermoth] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:17 -!- dermoth [~dermoth@gateway/tor-sasl/dermoth] has joined #lnd 14:25 -!- EagleTM [~EagleTM@unaffiliated/eagletm] has joined #lnd 14:43 < cluelessperson> a friend of mind believes his lightning node was costing him more to fund channels than to keep running. 14:44 < cluelessperson> I'm looking at my balances to get an idea of where I'm at and if it's declined somehow. 14:45 -!- peleion [~jeff@76.73.184.14] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:46 < cluelessperson> I initially funded lnd with 2BTC, the total of walletbalance + channelbalance reflects = 199,915,627 14:48 < cluelessperson> I probably need to make sure I'm more familiar with default channel times and fees. 14:53 -!- dermoth [~dermoth@gateway/tor-sasl/dermoth] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:54 -!- dermoth [~dermoth@gateway/tor-sasl/dermoth] has joined #lnd 14:59 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:04 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has joined #lnd 15:05 -!- EagleTM [~EagleTM@unaffiliated/eagletm] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:27 -!- pinkTiger [pinkTiger@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/pinktiger] has joined #lnd 15:30 -!- pinkTiger_ [~pinkTiger@174-16-164-138.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 16:05 -!- EagleTM [~EagleTM@unaffiliated/eagletm] has joined #lnd 16:17 < booyah> cluelessperson: it's like 1 usd at current prices. are you seriously discussing this? 16:20 < molz> booyah, it'll be 1M USD soon(TM)! 16:20 < molz> seriously if you can't do simple math, dont get on lightning 16:26 < cluelessperson> booyah: discussing what? I'm just noting where it's at. 16:29 < booyah> cluelessperson: I mean the cost of opening and closing a channel is negligible 16:29 < molz> but why opening a channel if you have no purpose of buying anything? 16:31 -!- Dean_Guss [~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:33 < cluelessperson> booyah: lnd has a feature called "autopilot" to automatically open channels on the network. If lightning channels are simply closed or time out over time, I don't want to throw away fees over time over nothing. So I'm just seeking to become more aware of how it works. :) 16:33 < cluelessperson> molz: in bitcoin circles, for the longest time, it was viewed as beneficial to the network to have more nodes. People tend to think they're helping by creating more channels, I suppose 16:33 < molz> autopilot is not recommended for mainnet 16:34 < molz> it should be disabled for mainnet 16:34 < molz> cluelessperson, for bitcoin nodes, sure, but not for lightning, it's a different thing 16:34 < cluelessperson> molz: ah, makes sense. I'll inform my friend that was likely what cost them some fees and scard them. 16:34 < cluelessperson> thanks 16:35 < molz> wow.. lol 16:35 < booyah> cluelessperson: ok. right, could be autopilot 16:35 < molz> either way it's good to support our bitcoin miners :D 16:36 < cluelessperson> molz: It makes sense I suppose. I think our thinking was that more channels might provide more routes to the populace. and we're eager to help. 16:36 < molz> booyah, have you tried out the new eclair with 'receive feature' ? 16:36 < cluelessperson> but I can see being a bit reckless or making assumptions can cause silly mistakes. 16:37 < molz> cluelessperson, you can't route if you haven't spent at all 16:37 < molz> only people who have spent down their capacity can route 16:37 < molz> and even so they might not even see any payment going thru their node because it just happens nobody in their direction has used their route because again, they don't spend 16:37 < cluelessperson> Ah, it's starting to make more sense, but I should do more reading before bothering you further with BS. 16:38 < molz> cluelessperson, you can learn this by setting a few nodes on testnet and get them to pay each other and receive from each other 16:39 < molz> setting up* 16:39 < cluelessperson> I'll likely do that to get an idea of it. 16:39 < cluelessperson> thanks for your help, always helpful 16:51 -!- EagleTM [~EagleTM@unaffiliated/eagletm] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:54 < molz> np, i've learned a lot by playing with lightning on testnet, can't afford to do this on mainnet, it'd be a waste 16:55 -!- melvster [~melvin@ip-86-49-18-190.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:56 -!- melvster [~melvin@ip-86-49-18-190.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lnd 16:59 -!- EagleTM [~EagleTM@unaffiliated/eagletm] has joined #lnd 17:08 -!- EagleTM [~EagleTM@unaffiliated/eagletm] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:21 -!- pioklo [~Pioklo@118-40.echostar.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:36 -!- melvster [~melvin@ip-86-49-18-190.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:08 -!- Dean_Guss [~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has joined #lnd 18:45 -!- greasedlnd [~geekmin@173-87-33-113.dr02.shlw.az.frontiernet.net] has joined #lnd 18:45 -!- thebling [~qxt@unaffiliated/qxt] has joined #lnd 18:48 < thebling> Anyway to test out watchtowers as of now. I try a replay attack on my test node and justice was served. The victim has to log in though. 19:11 < molz> i just closed a few testnet channels on an eclair desktop wallet and got all my coins back, nobody stole my channels they were down for 6 months! :D 20:07 -!- bitdex [~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex] has joined #lnd 20:37 -!- eamonnw [eamonnw@faeroes.sdf.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:43 -!- eamonnw [eamonnw@faeroes.sdf.org] has joined #lnd 22:10 -!- melvster [~melvin@ip-86-49-18-190.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lnd 22:28 -!- rls [~rls@104.250.122.134] has joined #lnd 22:31 -!- rlsy [~rls@104.250.122.134] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:46 -!- rlsy [~rls@104.250.122.134] has joined #lnd 22:46 < NeonLicht> If I understood correctly, one cannot exceed the capacity of a ln channel. So, in case one wants to use ln to make invoices to clients mainly (a coffe shop, for instance) and not to spend the money, how can that be done? If I open a channel with 300000 sats, how can I invoice clients on a regular basis without having to spend that earned money also regularly? 22:48 < Veggen> NeonLicht: do you operate for free? What will you do with your operating costs? 22:49 -!- rls [~rls@104.250.122.134] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:50 < Veggen> you'd try to send them back the same channels, possibly to an LN-enabled exchange. 22:50 < molz> not sure if i understand the questions? 22:51 < molz> NeonLicht, if you own a coffee shop, you sell coffee, and in return you get paid with bitcoin, is this what you meant? 22:52 < Veggen> you'd need incoming liquidity - that can be bought (large shops will do that), or could be traded with others who need incoming liquidity. 22:52 < molz> NeonLicht, if you're a merchant selling coffee, more likely you don't have to open channels, but your customers open channels to you to pay you 22:52 < NeonLicht> Yes, molz, but that's just an hipothetical example, it could be selling any service. 22:52 < molz> right 22:53 < NeonLicht> Your customers open channels to you? Does it mean you have a full node you give the URI to them or something like that? 22:53 < molz> NeonLicht, if you want to keep the channels open, you have to have enough money to operate your business and not close the channels to cash out 22:54 < NeonLicht> Sure, molz, I have no problem understandig that. What I don't understand is how I could *earn* money if I cannot receive more than I have set as the channel capacity. 22:54 < molz> NeonLicht, eventually the customers will close their channels to you because either 1. they have spent all their money to not able to spend anymore and only able to pay a closing fee 22:55 < NeonLicht> Sorry, English isn't my main language and I'm not sure how to explain that. :( 22:55 < molz> or 2. they don't want to spend anymore and just want to close their channels 22:55 < molz> sure, channels will be closed more likely by your customers 22:56 < Veggen> or, if you're lucky - you can send it back through those channels and pay somewhere else you need, so that customers can use those channels for the next cup of coffee to. 22:56 < NeonLicht> Your customers open channels to you? Does it mean you have a full node you give the URI to them or something like that? 22:56 < molz> or in many cases, txs need to be settled on chain because of some special circumstances and the software will close those channels 22:56 < NeonLicht> Can't your customers have a channel open on their one to a node and pay to you? 22:57 < molz> sure, someone will route to pay you but to pay you, it's another node that has a channel with you 22:58 < NeonLicht> So, how is it possible to *earn* any money if you cannot have on a channel more money than tha capacity of the channel, whih you need to spend before hand? I cannot understand it. 22:58 < NeonLicht> I probably am missing some info somewhere. 22:59 < molz> NeonLicht, it's the customers who can't spend more than what they have in their wallets 22:59 < molz> if they want to spend more, they have to open another channel 22:59 < molz> by wallets, i mean channels 23:00 < NeonLicht> Sure, molz, but how can one get more money than the money one spends? How can one have a positive balance at the end if a channel cannot go over its capacity? 23:00 < NeonLicht> Sorry, my English sucks and I don't seem to be able to make the right question. :) 23:00 < molz> how can you go over the capacity if you don't have it? 23:00 < molz> if you put in your channel 500k sat, then that's all you can spend 23:01 < NeonLicht> What do you mean by "you don't have it"? You dont have what? 23:01 < molz> if you put in the channel 500k sat, how can you spend more than 500k sat? from where? 23:01 < NeonLicht> Sure, that's very easy to understand, you can spend only what you have, I can understand that. 23:01 < NeonLicht> No, that is not my question, no. 23:04 -!- Deadhandd [~deadhand@kntaon1614w-grc-11-76-66-96-100.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:05 < molz> what's your question then? 23:05 < NeonLicht> My question has absolutely nothing to do with spending money from a paying customer. I perfectly understand that you an spend money until you run out of money. 23:06 -!- Deadhand [~deadhand@kntaon1614w-grc-11-76-66-96-100.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lnd 23:06 < molz> if you need your earnings asap, then lightning is probably not for your biz 23:07 < NeonLicht> My question is about the perspective of the recipient of the money. How is it possible to get a positive balance if one needs to fund a channel with the maximun capacity that channel can hold? How can one earn money if one cannot have more money that the money one starts with? 23:07 < NeonLicht> No, I don't need my earnings asap. In fact, I wouldn't mind having a few channels open for months. 23:07 < molz> well someone can evidently, bitrefill is one of them 23:08 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #lnd 23:08 < NeonLicht> I only need to understand how is it possible to *earn* the money. How is it possible to hold more money than the ammount invested to open a channel. 23:08 < molz> or you can hire a service to do this for you, idk 23:09 < NeonLicht> Hore a service? Isn't crypto's fundamental idea for me to be my own bank? 23:10 < molz> NeonLicht, have you heard of businesses selling their 'accounts receivables' ? 23:10 < NeonLicht> No, molz, I haven't heard of that. 23:10 < molz> NeonLicht, yes crypto is for you to run your own bank but if you can't, because you need to cash out your crypto, im not so sure if you understand running your own bank? 23:11 < NeonLicht> What do you mean by cahs your crypto? 23:12 < NeonLicht> If you mean selling BTC for fiat money, no, I don't want nor I need to do that. My question has nothing to do with fiat money, only to BTC and LTC. 23:14 < molz> then im not sure what your question is 23:15 < NeonLicht> I know, you are answering other questions all the time, but not mine. 23:15 < molz> what is your question? 23:15 < NeonLicht> My English sucks and I don't know how to ask my question, I think. 23:17 < NeonLicht> My question is extremely simple: How can I get a positive balance (in satoshi, I don't want $, EUR or any other fiat money, I only want sats) id I cannot hold more sats than the ammount of sats I have to invest to open a channel.... (example follows... 23:18 < molz> no clue what you're asking 23:18 < NeonLicht> Example: I open a channel with 500K sats. I need to spend some of those sats before I can invoice other people. I can invoice people only until I get back the same amount... I cannot hold more than 500K sats. 23:19 < NeonLicht> I know you don't. That's why you answer other questions, which I already know the answer to. :) 23:19 < molz> i already explained this part, i think 23:19 < NeonLicht> No, you haven't, I believe. 23:20 < NeonLicht> Let me finish the example I was sayng about, 23:21 < NeonLicht> How can I have 500K+ satoshis (more than I had at the beginning) if my channel cannot hold more than 500K sats? How can I get a positive balance if the ammount I can hold can never be higher than my initical balance? 23:22 < NeonLicht> How can I earn money if the amount of money I can get is limited by the amount of money I spend? 23:22 < molz> you do know a lnd node can open more than one channel? 23:23 < molz> i can open many nodes to bitrefill and send them money 23:23 < NeonLicht> Yes, I know, I have three channels opened. 23:23 < molz> so does that answer your question? 23:24 < NeonLicht> I don't know. What does it mean "open may nodes"? 23:24 < molz> i meant channels 23:24 < NeonLicht> What does it mean "to bitrefill and send them money? 23:24 < NeonLicht> To whom do you send money? 23:25 < molz> i am a customer, bitrefill is a merchant, i buy stuff from bitrefill, i pay them by opening more than one channel 23:25 < NeonLicht> Ok, you open several channels. Imagine I have 20 open channels. 23:26 < NeonLicht> Nevermind, I don't think you understand my question. :) 23:26 < molz> this is very simple and it's 2am here, i haven't got any sleep,, not sure why i want to keep explaining this 23:26 < molz> sorry it's too simple but you can't figure out, i can't help you 23:26 < NeonLicht> Sorry, you're answering questions other than the one I'm asking. Thanks for trying, though, 23:28 < NeonLicht> It's probably too simple, yes, since my question is extremely simple, but it's just a different question. 23:38 -!- StopAndDecrypt [~StopAndDe@unaffiliated/stopanddecrypt] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:38 -!- StopAndDecrypt [~StopAndDe@96.47.237.162] has joined #lnd 23:38 -!- StopAndDecrypt [~StopAndDe@96.47.237.162] has quit [Changing host] 23:38 -!- StopAndDecrypt [~StopAndDe@unaffiliated/stopanddecrypt] has joined #lnd 23:41 < molz> you can't receive or send more than the capacity of your channel because that is the rule how lightning works, if you're asking how you can receive free money on lightning then probably you can't, lightning is not a faucet to give free doges 23:42 < NeonLicht> No, I'm not asking how to get free money, of course. My question has nothing to do with free money, 23:43 < molz> How can I earn money if the amount of money I can get is limited by the amount of money I spend? <-- to answer this you can earn money by creating a service, a business, and you don't even have to open a channel to spend 23:45 < NeonLicht> Ok, now we are getting closer... Then my new question would be... If I understand what you just said... It is possible to get money via LN with zero (0) LN channels by somehow being a business? 23:50 < molz> sure, if you have something someone wants to buy, think of how they pay you? 23:51 < NeonLicht> What does "think of how they pay you" mean? 23:51 < molz> i answered this question an hour ago, but you're stuck with the thought you have to spend first before you can create an invoice 23:52 < NeonLicht> Sorry, my English sucks. :( 23:52 < NeonLicht> Exactly, you told me yesterday I cannot get paid until I spend first. I'm stuck with that. 23:53 < molz> right, that is the mechanism how a wallet works 23:54 < NeonLicht> Are you mayble implyinf that there is something else, other than a wallet, one can use to handle BTC on LN? 23:56 < NeonLicht> s/implyinf/implying/ 23:57 < molz> for you as a regular ln user, you use a wallet like eclair or lnd and if you want to be paid before you spend, the other person has to have a direct channel to pay you, but if not, you need to spend down your capacity in order to receive 23:58 < NeonLicht> When you say "a direct channel", do you mean a direct channel to the wallet they want to pay to? Not to any node on the LN, but a direct channel to a wallet? 23:59 < molz> right, and they might not be able to open a direct channel to you because eclair wallet is designed for spenders and it creates private channels