--- Day changed Mon Apr 07 2008
00:00 < kanzure> so "what's built in" will have to be a way to specify dependencies or relations to other packages, I guess
00:01 < kanzure> at some point we are going to have to restrict the possible types of relations between entities or functions or processes
00:01 < kanzure> "depends on" "requires for execution" "is a child of"
00:01 < fenn> i was thinking GNU 'units' would be a good set of functionality to start
00:01 < kanzure> what are GNU units?
00:01 < fenn> its a software program for converting between different units
00:02 < fenn> like foot, meter, inch, micron
00:02 < kanzure> http://www.gnu.org/software/units/
00:02 < kanzure> ah
00:02 < kanzure> no, I was thinking of the package file format standards
00:02 < kanzure> but I suppose you are to
00:02 < kanzure> so, the package deals with some sort of 'units'
00:02 < kanzure> it has to be able to specify this for input/output
00:03 < kanzure> specifying both a relation between pckg X and pckg Y while also speccing out the unit conversions
00:03 < kanzure> is intense.
00:04 < fenn> how else do you do it without simply specifying requires: package Y
00:04 < kanzure> because there are different types of 'requirements'
00:04 < kanzure> you can have a requirement for compiling the package and understanding it
00:04 < kanzure> you can have a requirement for the final physical form
00:05 < kanzure> just like a person-on-a-chair system requires the chair under the person
00:05 < fenn> compiling? you mean building?
00:05 < kanzure> nah, I mean preprocessing
00:05 < fenn> i dont understand
00:05 < kanzure> well, putting together a project usually means you're going to do some simulations first
00:05 < fenn> are you talking about software or chunks of metal?
00:05 < kanzure> or at least a verify-check
00:05 < kanzure> both, since you have software on autogenix that represents the metal that you are placing together
00:06 < kanzure> and then you have different types of 'require'ments in the final metal chunks you're putting together
00:06 < kanzure> there are many types of 'require'
00:06 < fenn> i'm gonna go out on a limb and say that software requirements are so easy to meet that we can ignore that for now
00:06 < kanzure> huh? you can't ignore that in a specification
00:06 < kanzure> that was the whole point of having a specification heh
00:07 < kanzure> can you convince me of otherwise
00:08 < fenn> package X has specifications in "quantum bogosity units" provided by libbogo
00:09 < fenn> so when you have something which depends on bogosity (such as X) autogenix will consult libbogo. if the library is not installed it will be fetched by <insert software package manager here>
00:10 < fenn> joe cell device: conflicts: bogons > 1.2 nanosuits
00:10 < kanzure> package X will have to specify dependency on bogosity
00:11 < kanzure> now, package X can also depend on package Y
00:11 < kanzure> although is it really a package if it depends on other things?
00:11 < kanzure> hrm
00:11 < fenn> package X itself doesnt need bogosity, you just need bogosity code to interpret the specifications
00:11 < kanzure> sure
00:12 < fenn> that's implied from the way specs are structured
00:12 < kanzure> you mean the physical implementation of package X, the final form, does not require bogosity
00:12 < kanzure> bogosity is backend, i.e. preprocessing
00:13 < fenn> i guess it could look like PHB side-effect: bogosity::bogons 1 suit 
00:13 < fenn> bogosity:: is the package
00:14 < fenn> er..
00:14 < fenn> bogosity:: is the code module
00:14 < fenn> bogons is the unit type
00:14 < fenn> suit is the unit
00:14 < fenn> PHB is the package, which provides other functionality such as 'management'
00:15 < kanzure> this is feeling more and more like the CPAN perl modules ... the perl modules for CPAN are uploaded in a wiki-like format, but with code as well, which is then downloaded. The code itself provides library 
00:15 < kanzure> functions. But in our case, the script would be the entire package, and would have various inputs and a standardized way of accessing the features and querying whatever it is that the package implements.
00:15 < kanzure> hm
00:15 < kanzure> I thought you were making a humorous remark: "PHB side-effect - they need 1 suit" with the rise of PHBs, but anyway
00:15 < fenn> now maybe sometimes you do need software in order to build something, such as for example cad/cam files to run the cnc machine
00:15 < kanzure> right
00:16 < kanzure> I think it will always be the case
00:16 < kanzure> suppose the case of a chair
00:16 < kanzure> a chair-package can manage all of the various ways to specify the chair
00:16 < kanzure> and have all sorts of fun parameters
00:16 < kanzure> actually
00:16 < kanzure> a chair would be a virtual reference to a set of operations to make a chair with other packages
00:16 < fenn> pointy-haired-boss raises the local bogosity field
00:16 < kanzure> such as lathes ands oon
00:16 < kanzure> aha
00:17 < fenn> sorry i couldnt think of a specialized unit
00:17 < fenn> bogons might be useful anyway
00:17 < fenn> er, the concept i mean
00:17 < fenn> i guess you could have anti-bogons
00:18 < fenn> "chair" could be an alias
00:19 < fenn> or it could be a functionality provided by different models of chair
00:19 < fenn> then autogenix solves which model of chair to use based on the constraints
00:19 < kanzure> well, chair is really just an object formed by specific lathe motions and wood inputs
00:19 < mechie> .
00:19 < mechie> hahahahahahaha
00:19 < kanzure> so chair itself should be a very small file, just stuff based off of human specs on movement
00:20 < fenn> well, when you write the chair module you get to figure this stuff out
00:20 < fenn> ejector seat provides chair, and also some other functions :)
00:21 < fenn> also there's some parameter relating to how comfortable the chair is in newton*hours/dolor 
00:22 < fenn> a rock is a chair, for some low value of comfort
00:23 < kanzure> so maybe we should just write down everything we can think about of a certain object or package that we envision
00:23 < fenn> gnu units allows arbitrary unit definitions if you provide your own definition file
00:23 < kanzure> and then revise it until it fits for a general case
00:23 < kanzure> interesting
00:23 < kanzure> that's good
00:24 < fenn> i think specialized units should be based on functionality
00:24 < fenn> whereas built-in should be physical properties
00:25 < kanzure> it just seems like this is relying on a TOE
00:25 < kanzure> sigh
00:25 < fenn> there's only so many physical properties
00:25 < kanzure> hey, what if we go steal file formats from other projects
00:25 < kanzure> SBML for systems biology
00:25 < kanzure> CAD for cad stuff
00:25 < kanzure> and uhh, molecular biology has their own file format I believe
00:25 < fenn> sure, that's part of the package's source code
00:25 < kanzure> chemistry for their molecules (SMILES and so on)
00:26 < fenn> i'm just talking about the "control" file, which determines logical relationships between packages
00:26 < kanzure> hm
00:27 < fenn> i guess you could look at the special-format data while traversing the dependency tree, but it might get really hairy (and slow)
00:27 < fenn> obviously you can't compute everything from first principles
00:27 < kanzure> yes, I was thinking we have to draw a line somewher
00:27 < kanzure> *somewhere
00:28 < kanzure> where engineering becomes a practice of "well, it's good enough" instead of "this will absolutely, in every aspect, work"
00:29 < fenn> capability of becoming a TOE is better than being limited by arbitrary decisions in the beginning
00:29 < fenn> doesnt mean you have to support everything
00:29 < kanzure> true
00:29 < kanzure> just being extensible enough
00:29 < kanzure> so that our awkward thoughts here don't hinder us in the future
00:29 < kanzure> I was thinking I need to go find a software engineer or computer scientist bulldog
00:30 < kanzure> and bring him in here to help come up with some rocksolid specs
00:30 < kanzure> I need some sleep, however
00:30 < kanzure> g'night
00:30 < fenn> the oscomak specs looked pretty bad
00:30 < fenn> me too, night
00:30 < kanzure> specs?
00:30 < kanzure> I didn't see anything 
00:30 < fenn> their 'aluminum bolt'
00:30 < kanzure> hm
00:31 < fenn> http://kurtz-fernhout.com/oscomak/prototype.htm
00:32 < kanzure> eh
00:33 -!- kanzure [n=bryan@cpe-70-113-54-112.austin.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."]
00:33 < fenn> mechie: yndrome, persons with NT or persons who have NT. Though it seems that most persons with NT would prefer to be referred to as neurotypicals, NTs or even normals, nobody cares about their opinions; after all, they are seriously ill, and clearly do not know what is best for them.
00:34 < mechie> ?
00:43 -!- Aulere [n=dragon_d@131.229.176.252] has quit []
00:44 < mechie> i'm confused :D
00:44 < fenn> http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Neurotypical_syndrome
00:45 < mechie> thought you were talking about myers briggs NT
00:46 < mechie> and?
00:46 < mechie> :)
00:48 < mechie> awefully quiet
00:48 < mechie> awfully
01:02  * epitron stands in awe of the silence
01:02 < mechie> i'm laying on the couch
01:03 < epitron> Enki-2: hey dood... i haven't heard much from you in here
01:03 < epitron> are you not into the biotech stuff as much as these two?
01:03 < mechie> probably cuz someone hereeeeeee
01:03 < mechie> is probably really mean
01:03 < mechie> :D
01:04 < epitron> Enki-2: kanzure told me that you were interested in collaborative information systems and that kinda thing
01:04 < epitron> mechie: it's ok we're just lowly NT's
01:04 < epitron> we deserve it
01:04 < mechie> haha
01:04 < epitron> :D
01:05 < mechie> sure sure :D
01:05  * mechie puts on imagineer helmet
01:05 < epitron> LESSER BEINGS MUST PAY FOR THEIR INFERIORITY
01:05 < epitron> TORTURRREEE
01:05 < mechie> because i don't speak in technical jibber jabber?
01:05 < mechie> :D
01:05 < epitron> (we've never forgiven rats for the bubonic plague)
01:05 < mechie> rats are awesome
01:05 < epitron> wha? you must've picked up some jabber
01:06 < mechie> but not the jibber
01:06 < epitron> ahh
01:06 < epitron> does that mean you can read it, but not speak it?
01:06 < mechie> yes
01:06 < mechie> same with chinese
01:06 < epitron> *nodnod*
01:06 < mechie> people can talk to me but i can't talk back
01:06 < epitron> MAN i'm so happy
01:06 < epitron> I HAVE A DIGITAL WATCH!
01:06 < mechie> xtc?
01:06 < mechie> haha
01:06 < epitron> with seconds!
01:06 < mechie> OH MAN THAT IS SO HIGH TECH
01:06 < epitron> it's so awesome
01:06 < epitron> it's one of the oldschool ones with 3 buttons
01:07 < mechie> i went back to cave men time
01:07 < epitron> MODe, LIGHT, and START/STOP
01:07 < epitron> CASIO
01:07 < mechie> i'm not even wearing a watch
01:07 < mechie> I JUST LOOK AT THE SKY AND GO LIKE
01:07 < mechie> "it's 6 o clock"
01:07 < mechie> XD
01:07 < epitron> wow
01:07 < mechie> hahaha
01:07 < epitron> what if it's overcast?
01:07 < mechie> oh
01:07 < mechie> then it's sleepy time
01:07 < epitron> i like your philosophy
01:08 < mechie> or you can tell what time it is by traffic
01:08 < epitron> please send me some literature
01:08 < mechie> haha
01:09 < epitron> i'm reading a review of karl popper's "the open society and its enemies"
01:10 < epitron> it's called "the open society and its ambivalent friends"
01:11 < mechie> orly
01:11 < mechie> where
01:18 < epitron> books.google.com
01:18 < epitron> it's a book of essays called "the primacy of persons and the language of culture"
01:18 < epitron> i dunno if it's got anything useful in it or not :)
01:19 < epitron> "These essays diagnose the present situation of Western thought by making explicit the philosophical presuppositions to which it is committed. They include theological affirmations, reflections on epistemology, conceptual.."
01:21 < mechie> so... is it rather dry so far
01:22 < epitron> hell yes
01:22 < mechie> gj
01:22 < epitron> i'm having trouble converting it into english :)
01:22 < mechie> good thing you're reading it
01:22 < epitron> "But just because it is a tract as well as a scholarly and analytical exercise, The Open Society becomes of interest in and must be responsible to a public much larger than that which, e.g., Popper's exegesis of Plato, will be debated in tome and journal."
01:22 < epitron> what the fuck is he saying
01:23 < mechie> it means... it's not important :D just fluff !
01:23 < epitron> i think he's saying that the public will read it
01:23 < mechie> it sounds like... tax law
01:23 < epitron> hahah
01:24 < mechie> which 99.9% of the nation understands
01:24 < mechie> oops
01:24 < mechie> doesn't
01:24 < epitron> same difference
01:24 < mechie> i hate reading tax :\
01:24 < epitron> i've never had that rite of passage
01:24 < epitron> i just use tax software
01:24 < mechie> i read this stuff at work
01:24 < mechie> it's awful
01:24 < epitron> ahh
01:25 < mechie> and i have to translate it into my reports
01:25 < mechie> but with numbers
01:25 < epitron> hahah
01:25 < epitron> so part of your job is translating tax laws?
01:25 < mechie> no
01:25 < mechie> no one else wants to do it
01:25 < mechie> so they dump it on the intern
01:25 < mechie> hahahaha
01:25 < epitron> gotcha
01:26 < mechie> there's only 1 MAN in the company who understands all of it
01:26 < mechie> i like him because he's sarcastic :D
01:26 < epitron> oh man
01:26 < epitron> you gotta have a sense of humour if you understand the tax code :)
01:26 < mechie> yeah
01:27 < epitron> this review hasn't yet talked about any of popper's ideas
01:28 < mechie> is he just talking about why you should read it?
01:28 < epitron> he's just talking about people who like or dislike or read his book or don't read his book or comparing him to don quixote
01:29 < mechie> ahhh ok
01:29 < epitron> this guy sounds like one of those people who are very eloquent speakers, and like to hear themselves talk
01:29 < epitron> and say nothing
01:29 < epitron> :)
01:29 < mechie> *AHME*
01:29 < mechie> AHEM*
01:29 < mechie> i can think of a feewwwww.
01:29 < epitron> you don't mean...
01:29 < epitron> o_O
01:30 < mechie> O_o OH DO I
01:30 < epitron> snap to the ap
01:30 < mechie> @_@ DUN DUN DUN!!!!!!
01:30 < epitron> OH! speaking of snap
01:30 < mechie> oh yes
01:30 < epitron> i saw a cool history channel program
01:30 < mechie> i should reattach zoner's leg.
01:30 < epitron> it was a re-enactment of cicero's famous court case that made him a powerful man
01:31 < epitron> where he bitchslaps this other powerful dood who stole a bunch of farms
01:31 < epitron> it's so awesome
01:31 < epitron> it's like matlock times 100
01:31 < mechie> haha
01:31 < epitron> law and order times 50
01:31 < mechie> the last thing i watched on history channel was the dogfights
01:31 < mechie> :<
01:31 < mechie> not the animal dogs.
01:31 < epitron> I ask you... QUI BONO!
01:31 < mechie> the airplanes
01:31 < epitron> oh, i don't watch the channel
01:32 < mechie> oh
01:32 < epitron> i just download stuff from the documentary torrent sites
01:32 < epitron> anything that looks interesting
01:32 < mechie> oh i'm trying to slow down on that :(
01:32 < epitron> it's usually not very good though :)
01:32 < mechie> i just rather leave it on tv
01:32 < mechie> but i haven't been able to watch anything lateley
01:32 < epitron> so you don't have to organize it?
01:32 < mechie>  -e
01:32 < mechie> well maybe :>
01:32 < mechie> i don't mind d/l anime though
01:33 < mechie> but movies and w/e are iffy
01:33 < mechie> unless they're chinese movies
01:33 < epitron> it all depends on what's important to you
01:33 < epitron> apparently western TV is not worth the trouble :)
01:33 < mechie> ah ok
01:33 < mechie> i miss my documentaries though -_-
01:33 < mechie> i miss those open surgery docs
01:33 < mechie> :D
01:33 < epitron> mvgroup.org
01:33 < epitron> :D
01:33 < epitron> hahah
01:33 < mechie> reality shows w/e
01:33 < epitron> live organs are so funky
01:34 < mechie> i knooowwwwwww
01:34 < epitron> all squirmy and gooey
01:34 < mechie> killing animals and then opening up are also funky
01:34  * mechie coughs
01:34 < epitron> have you done that?
01:34 < mechie> everyone in pharmacy has
01:34 < epitron> interesting
01:35 < epitron> i've only ever cut open cold formaldehyde-soaked things
01:35 < mechie> poison the rats
01:35 < epitron> haha
01:35 < epitron> we'll never forgive the rats!
01:35 < mechie> hahah yeah
01:35 < mechie> but i don't know why
01:35 < mechie> i liked gorey things back then
01:36 < mechie> which made me want to be a surgeon -ish person
01:36 < mechie> which also led me to surf your damn stileproject site
01:36 < epitron> hey that's not my site
01:36 < mechie> ok ok ok
01:36 < epitron> i just contributed jokes
01:36 < mechie> fine!
01:36 < epitron> or rather
01:36 < epitron> i just made jokes on irc
01:36 < epitron> and stile stole them
01:36 < mechie> haha
01:36 < epitron> and put his name on them
01:37 < mechie> nice
01:37 < epitron> :D
01:38 < mechie> hey
01:39 < mechie> did you ever frame your metablolic pathway poster
01:39 < epitron> no, i don't have a big enough wall :)
01:39 < mechie> neither do i :D
01:39 < epitron> haha
01:39 < mechie> except in my living room
01:39 < epitron> i could do the ceiling in my room
01:39 < mechie> but my bro would kill me
01:39 < mechie> but the diagrams are so small
01:39 < mechie> :\
01:40 < epitron> doesn't he already kill you?
01:40 < mechie> well yes
01:40 < epitron> you moving out soon? :)
01:40 < epitron> i think i am.
01:40 < mechie> i told my mom
01:40 < mechie> when i graduate
01:40 < mechie> she seems fine with it because she knows my bro is an asshole
01:40 < mechie> arrogany
01:40 < mechie> arrogant
01:40 < mechie> asshole
01:41 < mechie> THE ONES WHO THINK THEY KNOW A LOT (well they do) BUT ARE SO FRUSTRATED THAT THEY TAKE IT OUT ON YOU
01:41 < epitron> your bro sounded more like he was pushing himself really hard
01:41 < epitron> and he'd project his feelings of inadequacy on you
01:41 < epitron> there was a perfect example that you told me about
01:42 < mechie> well he was kind of chicken
01:42 < epitron> right
01:42 < mechie> i didn't know he was so scared of people
01:42 < epitron> what did he do again?
01:42 < mechie> oh trying to go on interviews to find a new job
01:42 < mechie> he was too chicken to go on them
01:42 < mechie> he didn't like feeling dumb
01:43 < mechie> so he stayed at his current place because it's safe
01:43 < mechie> but then he projected all the anger on me
01:43 < epitron> and what did he say to you?
01:43 < mechie> telling me i'm lazy
01:43 < mechie> and i have no initiative
01:43 < mechie> and that i need a job
01:43 < mechie> and nagged me every day to apply to jobs and go on interviews
01:43 < epitron> hahah
01:43 < mechie> and lectured me on how i'm bad w/ communicating with people
01:43 < mechie> and that i'm so scared
01:44 < mechie> (i was confused)
01:44 < epitron> haahahahahahahahh
01:44 < epitron> oh! i'm reading an awesome book that you shoudl check out
01:44 < epitron> it's all about weird dysfunctional family dynamics
01:44 < epitron> and optimal family dynamics
01:44 < mechie> will it make me not feel depressed
01:44 < epitron> and one of the authors is john cleese
01:44 < mechie> hahah cleese
01:44 < mechie> <3
01:45 < epitron> the idea i wanna tell you about is complicated
01:45 < mechie> ok
01:45 < epitron> it took them about 30 pages to lay it out
01:45 < mechie> describe it with ascii
01:45 < epitron> so just read the book
01:45 < mechie> haha
01:45 < epitron> it's called "Life and how to survive it"
01:45 < mechie> oh yeah aren't you an older brother
01:45 < epitron> yep
01:45 < mechie> are you an asshole
01:45 < mechie> :D
01:45 < epitron> hmmm
01:45 < epitron> sometimes
01:46 < mechie> it's ok :>
01:46 < epitron> we have a different dynamic though
01:46 < epitron> i just like to be right :)
01:46 < epitron> and so does he
01:46 < epitron> so we argue
01:46 < mechie> yeah me too
01:46 < epitron> and one of his friends pointed out that we were BOTH right
01:46 < epitron> and arguing different aspects of the same thing
01:46 < epitron> we were arguing over interpretation or something
01:46 < mechie> ahh
01:46 < epitron> haha
01:46 < mechie> i don't think my bro and i fight over interpretation that much
01:46 < epitron> it's funny...
01:47 < mechie> we think alike pretty much
01:47 < epitron> you stop listening to the content of what someoen is saying, and just listen to their tone of voice
01:47 < epitron> you think they're accusing you of something
01:47 < mechie> yup
01:47 < epitron> but they're not
01:47 < mechie> I AM JUST DEAF.
01:47 < epitron> anyhow, generally my bro and i get along :)
01:47 < mechie> SORRY.
01:47 < epitron> i always like when he comes back to visit
01:48 < mechie> in your basement?
01:48 < mechie> :D
01:48 < mechie> my cousin is in my basement
01:48 < epitron> yeah :D
01:48 < mechie> :D
01:48 < epitron> i'm living in his old pad right now
01:48 < epitron> he set it up really nice
01:48 < mechie> ahhh gamer? 
01:48 < epitron> when he moved to calgary, i just moved in
01:48 < epitron> yep
01:48 < mechie> nice
01:48 < mechie> my house = all gamers
01:48 < epitron> when you turn off the lights, there's 500 led's
01:48 < mechie> rofl
01:48 < mechie> how do you sleep
01:48 < epitron> in another room :D
01:48 < mechie> :D
01:49 < epitron> there's 2 rooms down here
01:49 < mechie> rich!
01:49 < epitron> more like SPACE EFFICIENT
01:49 < mechie> liessssssssssssssssssss
01:49 < mechie> man i have so much crap
01:49 < mechie> electronics + tools + plants + baby grand piano
01:50 < epitron> haha
01:50 < mechie> i wonder how i'd move all of this
01:50 < mechie> oh yeah wtf do i do w/ lumber 
01:50 < epitron> do you ever wish for a giant house so you can setup a special room for every interest?
01:50 < mechie> which makes me rethink the whole apartment thing
01:50 < mechie> yes
01:50 < mechie> YES
01:50 < mechie> YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
01:50 < mechie> all the time
01:50 < epitron> me too :D
01:50 < mechie> :D
01:50 < epitron> i also want a room that's full of tropical plants
01:50 < mechie> i'd need a special room just for drying lumber
01:51 < mechie> omg i always wanted a conservatory
01:51 < epitron> a small indoor rainforest
01:51 < mechie> and study plants
01:51 < epitron> drying lumber?
01:51 < mechie> yeah
01:51 < mechie> you have to dry out your lumber before you use it
01:51 < epitron> but don't you do that in a shed or something?
01:51 < mechie> otherwise when warps
01:51 < mechie> well suureeeeeeeee
01:51 < mechie> :<
01:51 < mechie> if you have one :<
01:52  * mechie builds one
01:52 < mechie> ok now i do
01:52 < epitron> OK FINE you can have a lumber room
01:52 < mechie> NO IT"S OK I JUST MADE ONE IT IS FINE
01:52 < epitron> you got a bit of a paradox
01:52 < mechie> i know
01:52 < mechie> it's going to warp
01:52 < mechie> and collapse
01:52 < epitron> unless
01:52 < epitron> it DRIES ITSELF
01:52 < epitron> O_O
01:52 < mechie> O_O
01:52 < epitron> which brings us back to synthetic biology
01:52 < epitron> and engineering autonomous systems 
01:52 < mechie> hahahahah
01:53 < epitron> god i love my new atch
01:53 < mechie> atch?
01:53 < epitron> wuh
01:53 < epitron> wuh
01:53 < epitron> watch!
01:53 < mechie> oh
01:53 < mechie> hahahahah
01:53  * mechie out of it
01:53 < epitron> long day?
01:54 < mechie> maybe
01:54 < mechie> feel rather woozy
01:54 < mechie> been feeling tired lately
01:55 < mechie> btw my mom made her own bread starter
01:55 < mechie> she used the word "CULTURE"
01:55 < mechie> oOoOoo :D
01:56 < epitron> haha
01:56 < epitron> naomi was into that
01:56 < mechie> did she use grapes
01:56 < epitron> she liked to show me her little sourdough culture
01:56 < mechie> yeahhhh
01:56 < epitron> no..
01:56 < epitron> i don't know how she started it
01:56 < epitron> she also makes cashew cheese
01:56 < mechie> what
01:56 < mechie> how
01:56 < epitron> and kimchi
01:56 < epitron> i dunno...
01:57 < mechie> lull kimchi...
01:57 < epitron> there's recipes on the itnernet
01:57 < mechie> my mom is into baking a lot because there's a set recipe to follow
01:57 < mechie> i tend to just skim recipes and play around
01:57 < epitron> yeah
01:57 < epitron> i laughed when you told me about the time she didn't have any chocolate chips
01:57 < mechie> yeah
01:57 < mechie> hahahha
01:57 < epitron> and you were like "PFTTT WHATEVER" *mash up candybar*
01:57 < mechie> I HAVE HO CHIPS
01:57 < mechie> I CANNOT MAKE THIS
01:57 < mechie> WHAT DO I DO
01:58 < mechie> OH NO
01:58 < mechie> mmmmm candy bar cookies
01:58 < epitron> :D
01:58 < epitron> did i tell you that my aunt works for a chocolate company?
01:58 < fenn> you need an automated generalized recipe markup language
01:58 < mechie> i'd send you some but i think customs would get it
01:58 < mechie> which one
01:58 < epitron> effem foods
01:58 < mechie> don't know what that is but continue
01:58 < epitron> they make starburst and skittles and mars and that coconut one
01:59 < mechie> ohhhh ok
01:59 < mechie> Almond Joy?
01:59 < epitron> no..
01:59 < epitron> mounds?
01:59 < mechie> hmmm
01:59 < mechie> time to ask pookie
01:59 < epitron> haha
01:59 < epitron> i don't wanna bring pookie in here
01:59 < epitron> he'd turn into a scientist
01:59 < mechie> ahh there it is
01:59 < mechie> it is coconut
02:00 < mechie> almond joy is similar but just w/ almonds added
02:00 < epitron> it's actually BOUNTY
02:00 < mechie> oh
02:00 < mechie> AND NOT THE TOWELS
02:00 < epitron> (i have a big bag of candy that she gave me last time i was at her place)
02:00 < epitron> mmmmm
02:00 < epitron> (what towels?)
02:01 < mechie> http://www.candydirect.com/bars/Bounty-Bar.html
02:01 < mechie> oh we have paper towels called Bounty
02:01 < epitron> that's the one
02:01 < epitron> haha
02:01 < epitron> we do as well
02:01 < epitron> there is room for 2 bounties
02:01 < mechie> http://www.quickerpickerupper.com/
02:01 < mechie> ahhh ok
02:02 < mechie> i've never tried those
02:02 < epitron> they're good
02:02 < mechie> i'm not big into coconut
02:02 < epitron> it's like ...
02:02 < epitron> oh
02:02 < mechie> unless they're coconut cupcakes
02:02 < epitron> well, then you're fucked! :)
02:02 < mechie> is it all coconut :(
02:02  * epitron <3 coconut
02:02 < epitron> basically :)
02:03 < mechie> <3 coconut cupcakes
02:03 < epitron> it's a pellet of shredded coconut
02:03 < epitron> with about a 2mm coating of chocolate
02:03 < epitron> there are 2 pellets per "bar"
02:03 < mechie> ahhh ok
02:03 < epitron> separate
02:03 < epitron> so you don't have to eat it all at once
02:03 < epitron> (if you did, it would be too much coconut)
02:03 < mechie> cuz that'd be disgusting
02:03 < mechie> yes
02:03 < epitron> also it allows for more chocolate surface area
02:07 < epitron> oh creepy
02:07 < mechie> ?
02:07 < epitron> chevron's new slogan is "human energy"
02:07 < mechie> haha
02:07 < epitron> HELLO MATRIX
02:07 < mechie> I KNOW
02:11 < epitron> did you see the glofish that kanz posted?
02:11 < mechie> no
02:11 < mechie> how could i tell what is what
02:11 < epitron> http://glofish.com/
02:11 < mechie> i have no pookie
02:11 < mechie> o ok
02:11 < epitron> I KNOW!
02:11 < epitron> hmmm
02:11 < epitron> i know
02:11 < mechie> plus there are a million links
02:11 < mechie> and nothing to filter
02:12 < mechie> oh
02:12 < mechie> i think they sell these in asian stores
02:12 < mechie> :\
02:12 < epitron> really?
02:12 < mechie> yeah
02:12 < epitron> i wonder if they die faster
02:13 < mechie> hmmm  i don't know
02:13 < mechie> if i wanted fish i'd try to do saltwater
02:13 < epitron> ohh man
02:13 < mechie> oh geez
02:13 < epitron> i love saltwater tanks
02:14 < mechie> i thought there was something wrong w/ my eyes
02:14 < epitron> my friend daniel had one... it was awesome
02:14 < mechie> the stupid words on that jar were moving
02:14 < epitron> wow, you ARE out of it
02:15 < mechie> ass to eye. ass to eye.
02:15 < mechie> you friend "had" one
02:15 < mechie> did they all die :D
02:16 < epitron> what
02:16 < epitron> oh
02:16 < epitron> was that a poem? :)
02:16 < mechie> no
02:16 < mechie> did the fish die
02:16 < epitron> (my friend moved from montreal to calgary)
02:16 < epitron> (or CAL-GAH-REE as they say)
02:17 < mechie> how do you say it
02:17 < epitron> CALguhree
02:17 < mechie> oh ok
02:17 < epitron> i can skype you to demonstrate
02:17 < mechie> no it's ok
02:17 < epitron> you sure?
02:17 < mechie> yes
02:17 < epitron> i'm all ready here
02:17 < epitron> all skyped up
02:18 < mechie> haha
02:18 < epitron> skypin' to the max
02:18 < mechie> your accent isn't very different from ours
02:18 < mechie> other than some subtle differences
02:18 < epitron> i know, i'm joking :)
02:18 < mechie> i kno
02:18 < mechie> i wanted to make fun of noeld and ub
02:18 < mechie> but i couldnt :(
02:18 < epitron> haha
02:18 < mechie> so i just make fun of ub's purse.
02:18 < epitron> you gotta be from the south to do it
02:18 < epitron> southerners can tell the difference between canadian and northern US accents
02:19 < epitron> or at least, the one i knew could
02:19 < mechie> well you do say ou/oo's differently
02:19 < epitron> maybe she was unique
02:19 < epitron> yeah, that's basically it :)
02:19 < mechie> but that wasn't big enough for me to make fun of
02:19 < epitron> get those dogs in the HEWS
02:19 < epitron> HOOSE
02:19 < epitron> ah well
02:20 < mechie> i like how there are so many diff accents in NYC
02:20 < epitron> you can always just call us beady-eyed flapping-headed freaks
02:20 < mechie> no that's me :(
02:20 < epitron> (no that's canadians on south park :)
02:20 < mechie> (oh you trash cans)
02:20 < epitron> hahaha
02:20 < epitron> anyhow, yeah, i liked that about NYC
02:20 < epitron> except for the one person who was SCREAMING ON THE NIGHT TRAIN
02:21 < epitron> LIKE A DRUNKEN IDIOT
02:21 < mechie> was it me
02:21 < mechie> jk
02:21 < mechie> do you remember which line it was
02:21 < epitron> i dunno are you a gino?
02:21 < epitron> i was going to trenton
02:21 < mechie> to NJ?
02:21 < epitron> yeah
02:21 < mechie> you were on the Path train
02:21 < mechie> orrrr
02:21 < epitron> i see
02:21 < mechie> NJ Transit Rail road
02:21 < mechie> oh wait i don't think path goes there
02:21 < epitron> hmmm
02:21 < mechie> it's too far south
02:21 < epitron> it was elevated
02:21 < mechie> n/m
02:22 < mechie> yeah i think you were on the railroad
02:22 < epitron> ok
02:22 < mechie> jeremy lives in trenton
02:22 < mechie> it was like a 2 hour ride right?
02:22 < epitron> you mean, when he's not living in manhattan?
02:22 < epitron> uhmm
02:22 < epitron> i can't remember
02:22 < epitron> it didn't seem that long
02:22 < mechie> yeah
02:22 < mechie> i think him and tom are married by now! jk
02:22 < epitron> there was a long wait for the train
02:22 < mechie> you were probably etertained by something
02:23 < epitron> hahaha
02:23 < epitron> no, i was very annoyed by the drunken idiot
02:23 < epitron> i was trying to read my book
02:23 < mechie> ahhh
02:23 < epitron> it should've felt loonnngg
02:23 < mechie> lots of those around :)
02:23 < epitron> yeah
02:23 < mechie> NYC used to be worse
02:23 < epitron> it was 2am on a friday or saturday night
02:23 < mechie> schizos everywhere
02:23 < mechie> then all the hipsters and yuppies cleaned it up
02:23 < epitron> it could've been 2 hours...
02:24 < epitron> it was awesome to walk through trenton at 4am
02:24 < mechie> maybe the 2 hours included the wait time...
02:24 < epitron> from the train station to the house
02:24 < mechie> you walked?
02:24 < epitron> never having visited ny before
02:24 < epitron> yep :D
02:24 < epitron> it was only about 5 blocks
02:24 < epitron> i was told to look out for bloods and crips
02:24 < mechie> oh i have no idea where trenton train station is
02:24 < mechie> depends which part of trenton
02:24 < mechie> yeah
02:24 < epitron> and to not have a red or blue handkerchief on me
02:24 < mechie> i still wore those colors :\
02:25 < epitron> it's on the border between the gang territories
02:25 < epitron> haha
02:25 < mechie> stupid gangs ugh
02:25 < epitron> ok
02:25 < epitron> so what should i name the new bot
02:26 < epitron> something nerdy
02:26 < mechie> you're bringing one here?
02:26 < epitron> like SirIsaac
02:26 < mechie> no
02:26 < mechie> make it really stupid
02:26 < mechie> just cuz
02:26 < epitron> seymour
02:26 < epitron> hahaha
02:26 < epitron> like some kinda crazy wackadoo!
02:26 < mechie> hmmmmmmmmm
02:26 < mechie> moonbeam.
02:26 < mechie> hahahahahha
02:26 < epitron> ehhh fuggedaboutit!
02:26 < epitron> ya crazy wackadoo!!
02:27 < mechie> you say that to me irl and i punch you!
02:27 < epitron> how about
02:27 < epitron> squishy
02:27 < epitron> whaaa
02:27 < mechie> squishee
02:27 < epitron> whatcha gettin all punchy for
02:27 < mechie> i like to punch
02:27 < epitron> you some kinda wackadoo or sumthin?
02:27 < mechie> >:|
02:27 < epitron> eh tony look at the wackadoo over heauh!
02:27 < epitron> she thinks she can take me!
02:27 < mechie> i can :(
02:27 < epitron> ah ha ha
02:28 < epitron> come on sweetie show me whatcha got
02:28  * mechie kicks epitron in the nads
02:28  * mechie kicks epitron in the nads
02:28  * mechie kicks epitron in the nads
02:28  * epitron collapses
02:28  * epitron vomits
02:28 < mechie> it's ok we can get you new ones
02:28 < mechie> stop being a drama queen
02:28 < epitron> crazzyy.... wacka... doo... *faint*
02:28 < epitron> so names!
02:28 < epitron> punchie
02:28 < epitron> flakey
02:28 < mechie> pudgie
02:28 < mechie> lullz
02:29 < epitron> haha
02:29 < epitron> i like it
02:29 < mechie> i still call my dog pookie sometimes
02:29 < mechie> damnit
02:29 < epitron> maybe this will fix it
02:29 < mechie> maybe
02:29 < mechie> oh god he farted
02:29 < epitron> we could give it a biology name too
02:29 < epitron> like MENDEL
02:30 < mechie> i'm in pain
02:30 < epitron> hahahaha
02:30 < mechie> where is the gas mask when i need it
02:30 < epitron> so much stink from such a tiny animal
02:30 < mechie> (yes we have such things)
02:30 < epitron> haha
02:30 < mechie> ok it passed
02:30 < mechie> MOVING ON.....
02:31 < epitron> stinkee
02:31 < mechie> Sir Pudgie Mendel
02:31 < epitron> hahahah
02:32 < epitron> Churchill Babington
02:32 < mechie> i don't like the flow!
02:33 < epitron> Emil Adolf von Behring
02:33 < epitron> Otto Fritz Meyerhof
02:33 < mechie> hmmm
02:33 < epitron> Frederick Grant Banting
02:33 < mechie> maybe if it sounded more like chocolate
02:34 < epitron> Carl Peter Henrik Dam
02:34 < epitron> Edward Adelbert Doisy
02:34 < epitron> OMG
02:34 < epitron> Ernst Boris Chain
02:34 < epitron> what an awesome name
02:34 < mechie> for your dog :<
02:34 < epitron> how about krebs
02:34 < epitron> that's a good bot name
02:34 < mechie> maybe
02:35 < epitron> i think it would grow on us :D
02:35 < mechie> hmmmmmmmmm
02:35 < mechie> we could take out our maps and pick something
02:35 < mechie> nah too lazy
02:36 < epitron> nah, it should be whimsical
02:36 < mechie> like drug OTC names? XD
02:36 < epitron> there are so many wacky biology names
02:36 < epitron> i wish i could remember them
02:36 < mechie> yeah i can't remember them anymore
02:36 < epitron> where you're sitting in glass, eyes glazed over, then the teacher says a funny word
02:36 < epitron> like GOLGI BODY
02:37 < epitron> and it sticks
02:37 < mechie> yeh
02:37 < epitron> s/glass/class/
02:37 < mechie> and where everything in chem class looks like a bunch of emoticons
02:37 < mechie> org chem*
02:37 < epitron> hhah
02:38 < mechie> i think people thought i was high
02:38 < mechie> so anyway
02:38 < mechie> Tirlenol is cute
02:38 < epitron> the name or the person
02:38 < mechie> name
02:38 < mechie> is that the type you wanted?
02:38 < epitron> hmm
02:38 < epitron> but then we'll get nick collisions
02:39 < epitron> tirlas and the bot will fight
02:39 < mechie> oh wait are you changing pookie's name?
02:39 < epitron> no, i'm making a new bot that will absorb all this channel's text :)
02:39 < mechie> oh god i feel sorry for it
02:39 < epitron> he will have a different personality
02:39 < epitron> hahah
02:39 < mechie> now i'm tempted to make it sound retarded
02:39 < epitron> i could call him ecoli
02:40 < epitron> haha
02:40 < epitron> GO FOR IT
02:40 < mechie> WHY DOES NOTHING COME TO MINDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
02:40 < epitron> start riffin'
02:41 < epitron> EWW http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Celldeath.jpg
02:41 < mechie> i'm thinking of something... slow moving like a blob
02:41 < epitron> "Incomplete differentiation in two toes (syndactyly) due to lack of apoptosis"
02:41 < mechie> heh my bio teacher wrote books on cell death
02:41 < epitron> ok i'm calling him krebs :D
02:41 < mechie> niiiceeee
02:42 < mechie> ok
02:43 < epitron> actually, how about just Hans Adolf :)
02:43 < mechie> sounds like an arrogant prick
02:43 < epitron> exaaaactly
02:43 < mechie> noooo we have too many of thooseee
02:44 < mechie> unless hans is always wrong
02:44 -!- krebs [n=krebs@208.106.116.196] has joined #hplusroadmap
02:44 -!- krebs [n=krebs@208.106.116.196] has quit [Client Quit]
02:44 -!- epitron is now known as krebs
02:44 < krebs> crap, someone's got the name
02:44 -!- krebs is now known as epitron
02:44 < mechie> figures
02:44 -!- mechie is now known as mech0r
02:44 < epitron> eih it'll be ok
02:44 -!- krebs [n=krebs@208.106.116.196] has joined #hplusroadmap
02:45 < epitron> HELLO HANS ADOLF KREBS
02:45 < epitron> !chat
02:45 < krebs> HELLO HANS ADOLF KREBS
02:45 < epitron> :D
02:45 < mech0r> FUCKING A
02:45 < epitron> it begins
02:45 < mech0r> !chat
02:45 < krebs> it begins
02:45 < mech0r> !chat
02:45 < krebs> it begins
02:45 < mech0r> :(
02:45 < epitron> !chat
02:45 < krebs> it begins
02:45 < epitron> !chat
02:45 < krebs> FUCKING A
02:45 < epitron> :D
02:45 < mech0r> hh
02:45 < mech0r> HELLO HANS ADOLF KREBS it begins FUCKING A
02:46 < epitron> !chat
02:46 < krebs> HELLO HANS ADOLF KREBS it begins
02:46 < epitron> haha
02:46 < epitron> i love that plugin
02:46 < mech0r> yup
02:46 < epitron> http://heybryan.org/
02:46 < krebs> [Link Info] title: Bryan Bishop's home page
02:46 < mech0r> i wonder if he'll get irritated
02:46 < mech0r> bryan
02:46 < epitron> *shrug*
02:46 < epitron> we can turn it off
02:47 < mech0r> because he knows what all the links are already
02:47 < mech0r> o
02:47 < mech0r> can it do..
02:47 < epitron> he's not posting them for his own benefit though :)
02:47 < mech0r> !figlet O_O
02:47 < krebs>   ____      ____ 
02:47 < krebs>  / __ \    / __ \
02:47 < krebs> / /_/ /   / /_/ /
02:47 < krebs> \____/____\____/ 
02:47 < krebs>      /___/       
02:47 < mech0r> allriigghhttt
02:47 < epitron> !figlet YESSS
02:47 < krebs> __  __ ____ ____ ____ ____
02:47 < krebs> \ \/ // __// __// __// __/
02:47 < krebs>  \  // _/ _\ \ _\ \ _\ \  
02:47 < krebs>  /_//___//___//___//___/  
02:47 < krebs>                           
02:47 < mech0r> !figlet <3
02:47 < krebs>   __   ____
02:47 < krebs>  / /  |_  /
02:47 < krebs> < <  _/_ < 
02:47 < krebs>  \_\/____/ 
02:47 < krebs>            
02:48 < mech0r> no that looks like something else! you fail!
02:48 < epitron> ewww
02:48 < epitron> it looks like a 3 with a bow
02:48 < mech0r> boomerang
02:49 < mech0r> which somehow reminds me
02:49 < mech0r> i want to make something ridiculous out of wood
02:51 < epitron> HMMM
02:51 < epitron> how aobut little hula dancers
02:51 < mech0r> :(
02:51 < epitron> wood gas mask?
02:51 < mech0r> :(
02:51 < epitron> i give up :D
02:52 < mech0r> i know me too
02:52 < mech0r> UNTIL
02:52 < mech0r> i look at inhabitat again
02:52 < epitron> oooo
02:52 < epitron> wood stove!
02:52 < mech0r> some guy made a bench out of tennis balls
02:52 < epitron> make a tennis ball out of a bench
02:52 < mech0r> doesn't sound very bouncy
02:53 < epitron> make it out of rubber plants
02:53 < epitron> rubber bench!
02:53 < epitron> (i think i'm losing it now too)
02:53 < mech0r> (it's late)
02:53 < epitron> ((whoa it's monday))
02:53 < mech0r> you didn't take your pills?
02:53 < mech0r> i have work.
02:53 < epitron> (((where were you digital watch!!!)))
02:54 < epitron> meh, i don't have to get up early
02:54 < mech0r> i do
02:54 < epitron> i don't need to take sleeping pills :)
02:54 < epitron> you know what i thought was silly
02:54 < epitron> over the counter sleeping pills are just antihistamines
02:54 < mech0r> me cutting off zoner's leg.
02:54 < mech0r> like benadryl?
02:54 < epitron> i dunno :)
02:54 < epitron> it's the same stuff though
02:54 < epitron> i looked it up
02:54 < mech0r> oh
02:55 < mech0r> drugs r such a scam
02:55 < mech0r> sigh
02:55 < mech0r> there were no major breakthrough really
02:55 < epitron> haha
02:55 < mech0r> just a reboxing of everything
02:55 < epitron> did you ever see Brain Candy?
02:55 < mech0r> no
02:55 < epitron> that's great
02:55 < mech0r> IS IT
02:55 < epitron> it's the Kids in the Hall movie
02:55 < mech0r> oh
02:55 < epitron> it's about drug companies
02:56 < mech0r> did they somehow mke drug companies seem interesting
02:56 < epitron> yep :D
02:56 < epitron> it was about the people at the top
02:56 < epitron> the crazy rich bastards
02:56 < mech0r> yupppp
02:57 < mech0r> too much about profit
02:57 < epitron> anyhow, i won't tell you any more
02:57 < epitron> it's wacky
02:57 < mech0r> cliffhanger!
02:57 < epitron> http://www.torrentz.com/search?q=brain+candy
02:57 < krebs> [Link Info] title: brain candy torrent search
02:57 < mech0r> damn i ran out of room
02:57 < mech0r> i'll save it
02:58 < mech0r> the link
02:58 < epitron> sayonara, anime!
02:58 < mech0r> i've deleted like almost all of it from laptop
02:58 < mech0r> if i was on my pc it wouldn't matter
02:58 < epitron> ahh
02:58 < epitron> man i wanna see this movie again
02:59 < mech0r> brain candy eh
02:59 < mech0r> time to imdb
03:00 < mech0r> i'm sleepy now
03:01 < epitron> only one cure for that
03:01 < mech0r> 5 cans of coke
03:01 < epitron> You know what you must do.
03:01 < epitron> haha
03:07 < epitron> !topic add krebs is now servicing the channel. try !help
03:07 < krebs> epitron, you don't have 'topic' permissions here
03:07 < epitron> oops :D
03:08 < epitron> !topic add krebs is now servicing the channel. try !help
03:08 -!- krebs changed the topic of #hplusroadmap to: http://heybryan.org/ http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/ http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Self-replication | krebs is now servicing the channel. try !help
03:08 < mech0r> :D
03:08 < mech0r> NO IM TOO SMART TO ASK FOR HELP
03:08 < epitron> hahah
03:09 < mech0r> if it DOESN'T WORK
03:09 < mech0r> YOUR BOT IS DUMB
03:10 < epitron> that's only true when it's tmrd's bot :D
03:11 < mech0r> haha :D
07:21 -!- kanzure [n=bryan@cpe-70-113-54-112.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap
07:21 < kanzure> Hey krebs.
07:21 < kanzure> Ruby bot?
07:28 < kanzure> http://biopunk.org/ emailed me
07:28 < krebs> [Link Info] title: Biopunk.org - Index page
07:38 < kanzure> http://www.dnatube.com/
07:38 < krebs> [Link Info] title: DNATube.com Scientific Video Site
08:01 -!- kanzure [n=bryan@cpe-70-113-54-112.austin.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."]
17:41 -!- kanzure [n=bryan@cpe-70-113-54-112.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap
17:42 < kanzure> !help
17:42 < krebs> help topics: 6 core modules: auth, basics, config, httputil, remote, userdata; 73 plugins: alias, autoop, autorejoin, azgame, babel, bans, bash, cal, chanserv, chucknorris, debug, deepthoughts, delicious, dice, dict, digg, dns, eightball, excuse, factoids, figlet, forecast, fortune, freshmeat, grouphug, hl2, host, imdb, insult, iplookup, karma, keywords, lart, lastfm, linkbot, markov, math, modes, nickserv, q, quiz, quote, reaction, realm, remind,
17:42 < krebs> remotectl, ri, roshambo, rot, roulette, rss, salut, script, search, seen, shiritori, shortenurls, slashdot, spell, theyfightcrime, threat, time, topic, translator, tube, twitter, unicode, urban, url, usermodes, weather, wheeloffortune, wserver; 1 plugin ignored: use help ignored plugins to see why; 2 plugins failed to load: use help failed plugins to see why (help <topic> for more info)
17:52 < kanzure> fenn: http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Skdb#File_format
17:52 < krebs> [Link Info] title: Societal engineering knowledge database - Biohack
17:54 < kanzure> epitron: You around?
17:55 < kanzure> Anissimov might need some emergency hosting.
18:03 < epitron> ohm, sure
18:03 < epitron> what's he need hosted?
18:04 < kanzure> Anissimov 
18:04 < kanzure> he was on the front page of digg
18:26 < epitron> ok
18:26 < epitron> well, give me some more info 
18:26 < epitron> or maybe tell him to talk to me :)
18:27 < epitron> i can't seem to find him on digg either
18:27 < epitron> you wanna give me some hints?
18:27 < kanzure> ah, he says everything is okay
18:27 < epitron> ok :)
18:28 < epitron> can you give me the link to his thing? I'm curious what this is now :)
18:28 < kanzure> well, it's down
18:28 < epitron> hahah
18:28 < kanzure> so
18:28 < kanzure> http://web.archive.org/web/20070814121108/http://www.acceleratingfuture.com/michael/blog/
18:28 < krebs> [Link Info] title: Accelerating Future
18:28 < epitron> probem SOLEVD
18:29 < epitron> which article was dugg?
18:32 < kanzure> it was obviously something in 2008
18:32 < kanzure> so I don't know
18:37 < epitron> :)
18:38 < kanzure> http://digg.com/general_sciences/10_Futuristic_Materials
18:38 < kanzure> that may have been it
18:38 < krebs> [Link Info] title: Digg - 10 Futuristic Materials
18:54 < fenn> not in archive
19:04 < epitron> http://funtarded.com/pics/show/2368
19:04 < krebs> [Link Info] title: 1_gigabyte_is_so_much_less_manly_today.jpg :: Funtarded!
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20:57 < kanzure> who was Nevermore?
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21:19 < kanzure> Welcome drazak.
21:19 < kanzure> check the /topic
21:19  * drazak waves
21:24 -!- BDrago1 [n=noah@ip68-14-89-105.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
21:24 < kanzure> Hey Noah.
21:24 < kanzure> Please stick around.
21:24 < BDrago1> Hi. I shall. 
21:24 -!- BDrago1 is now known as Noahj
21:24 < kanzure> recent topics of interest are in the /topic
21:24 < drazak> heh
21:26 < kanzure> Noah and I go way back, a year at least
21:26 < Noahj> Yeah, although I still haven't caught up  
21:27 < Noahj> Right now I'm putting a piezo on my throat and overmodulating it to make music, also, I'm compiling the cvs version of gnuitar to do guitar effects. With the ultimate goal of doing a guitar solo with my throat. I don't know if that's cyborgy enough to qualify mentioning on this channel, though.
21:28 < kanzure> maybe if you speak in Taylor polynomials it'll be cyborgy enough
21:31 < Noahj> Hmm, I think I'd have to be using the piezo as a speaker for that 
21:32 < Noahj> What do these have to do with cyborgs? 
21:32 < kanzure> yanking your chain
21:33 < Noahj> Ah. Well... that's, uh, a good way to flush a toilet if the thing on the side is broken, I guess. 
21:36 < Noahj> I feel like I've stopped an important discussion or something 
21:36 < Noahj> But I guess on this channel most people are probably distracted by their tRMS machines or whatever 
21:37 < kanzure> I'm off talking with drazak, waiting for fenn to get back online so that we can discuss the updates to the skdb article I threw together,
21:37 < kanzure> Aulere is off studying for psych, epitron is doing who knows who, Enki-2 is conversing in #wrongplanet, and krebs is a bot
21:37  * drazak is conversing, and reading the calc book
21:38 < kanzure> cal book
21:38 < kanzure> calc = calculator
21:38 < kanzure> cal = calculus
21:39 < Aulere> cog neuro actually, but yeah 
21:39 < Noahj> Ca = California and CA = Cellular Automata? 
21:39 < fenn> meep
21:39 < Noahj> Except Ca's probably also an element 
21:39 < drazak> beep?
21:39 < kanzure> fenn: http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Skdb please check out the big giant paragraphs - I think I've narrowed down some ideas
21:39 < Noahj> Yeah.
21:39 < Noahj> Calcium. 
21:39 < krebs> [Link Info] title: Societal engineering knowledge database - Biohack
21:39 < kanzure> but please excuse the massive paragraph structure
21:40 < drazak> CA is calcium
21:40 < drazak> 45.5 formula weight
21:40 < drazak> 23? atomic number
21:41 < Noahj> 20, I thought 
21:41 < Noahj> Anyway, Ca is calcium 
21:41 < Noahj> CA is cellular automata I hope. But it gets ambiguous... 
21:41 < fenn> i'm playing with 'phun'.. if you throw enough stupidity at a problem it begins to look quite biological: http://fennetic.net/pub/irc/phun.png
21:41 < krebs> [Link Info] type: image/png, size: 263,410 bytes
21:41 < Noahj> Hey, I just installed that today 
21:42 < Noahj> But I can't use it because of proprietary nvidia drivers not working unless I've got kernel sources that match my current kernel 
21:42 < kanzure> -- without my influence, fenn, I did no linking to Noah
21:42 < Noahj> And I installed a binary kernel because I'm lazy 
21:42 < drazak> ew, binary kernels
21:42 < Noahj> Yeah, yeah 
21:42 < Noahj> I ought to recompile. I will. 
21:42 < drazak> mmmm gentoo (not genkernel, genkernel is shit)
21:42 < Noahj> yeah, sabayon is worse though 
21:43 < drazak> sabayon is a POS
21:43 < Noahj> Sabayon is like genkernel to the whateverth 
21:43 < Noahj> Yeah. Well. I've learned that the hard way.
21:43 < Noahj> Debian sucks on this machine so I figured I'd install gentoo, but I didn't have two months 
21:43 < fenn> kanzure: synthetic serendipity?
21:43 < kanzure> fenn: hm?
21:44 < drazak> debian is nice on servers
21:44 < Noahj> Serendipity? What? Is this peacefulness or a CMS?
21:44 < Noahj> Debian is nice on old machines, too 
21:44 < Noahj> It's annoying to have to compile everything 
21:44 < drazak> (or Serendipity the chocolate parlor?)
21:44 < drazak> gentoo is nice too, if you do distcc
21:44 < fenn> serendipity is fortuitous coincidence
21:44 < Noahj> Yeah, synthetic chocolate? 
21:44 < Noahj> Distcc? 
21:45 < Noahj> Oh, yeah, serenity is peacefulness. I always get those messed up. 
21:45 < drazak> distributed c compiler
21:45 < kanzure> fenn: how so? (not your last message)
21:45 < Noahj> Oh, right, I heard about that a couple years back 
21:45 < drazak> it's a gcc/g++ extension, it allows compilation over the network
21:45 < Noahj> Where would I distribute it to, though? 
21:45 < Noahj> I've got no cluster to speak of 
21:45 < drazak> just another machine
21:45 < Noahj> Well, none at all. If I did have one, though, I probably wouldn't speak of it :-D 
21:45 < kanzure> Noah. You get free machines from MIT.
21:46 < Noahj> Yeah, gentoo is slow on all my machines 
21:46 < drazak> you can add lots of machines, all they need to do is run a distcc compiler
21:46 < drazak> Then you did gentoo wrong :P
21:46 < Noahj> Well, yeah, there was that one. But my father took it to do lawyerly stuff on 
21:46 < drazak> what WM?
21:46 < Noahj> Ion. Well. I used to use ion. 
21:46 < Noahj> Before the guy who wrote it went loco. 
21:46  * drazak uses fluxbox
21:46 < drazak> which is very minimal
21:46 < Noahj> Yeah, I'm on fluxbox now 
21:46 < Noahj> Yeah, but fluxbox is annoying. It uses windows and not tabs. 
21:46 < Noahj> Wmii is nice. 
21:47 < drazak> althought it doesn't have all the... WMIMPC? compliance hooks
21:47 < Noahj> Anyway yeah, mostly compiling X takes a lot of time 
21:47 < drazak> I wouldn't mind giving my fluxbox a little eyecandy, with compiz-fusion
21:47 < Noahj> I go through eyecandy phases 
21:47 < kanzure> Enki-2: now would be a good time to jump in with your xu88 stuff for these two
21:47 < fenn> kanzure: ew, natural language specifications, suck
21:47 < Noahj> xu88? 
21:47 < kanzure> fenn: unfortunately that's how papers are published
21:47 < fenn> kanzure: that's what we're trying to get away from
21:47 < drazak> Noahj: I sort of like the zoom in thing
21:47 < kanzure> fenn: that's how we've been collecting all of our data
21:48 < drazak> some of my monitors go up to 2048x1536
21:48 < kanzure> fenn: it's just tagging and ontologies
21:48 < drazak> and it'd be nice to be able to have all of that real estate, and still be able to read
21:48 < kanzure> fenn: we need multiple "approach ontologies" for the content
21:48 < Noahj> I made a theme that made KDE look like windows media centre, back when such things were hip 
21:48 < drazak> ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
21:48 < Noahj> Whoa, that's severly high-res 
21:48 < drazak> yeah
21:48 < Noahj> I also used to use enlightenment. Which is essentially fluxbox with eyecandy. 
21:48 < kanzure> fenn: I guess you're right.
21:48 < fenn> kanzure: a "readme" is okay, but it shouldnt be the source code too
21:48 < drazak> e11 is niceish
21:48 < Noahj> I used to glue monitors together and use xinerama 
21:49 < Noahj> e17 is much better 
21:49 < Noahj> e...11? 
21:49 < Noahj> I thought the first one was, like, 15 
21:49 < kanzure> fenn: but I do not see the necessity of automating it all, actually. That's the only reason to move away from natural-lang-desc, right?
21:49 < Noahj> What's this natural language thing? It sounds important. 
21:49 < kanzure> Noahj: http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Skdb
21:49 < krebs> [Link Info] title: Societal engineering knowledge database - Biohack
21:49 < drazak> http://drazak.net/misc/pics/dcao0011.jpg
21:49 < krebs> [Link Info] type: image/jpeg, size: 460,390 bytes
21:49 < kanzure> CPAN/apt for engineering and knowledge in general
21:49 < drazak> my favourite poster :D
21:49 < kanzure> instead of just software
21:50 < drazak> Noahj: http://drazak.net/misc/pics/dcao0066.jpg is that monitor, it's 19"
21:50 < krebs> [Link Info] type: image/jpeg, size: 465,648 bytes
21:51 < kanzure> fenn: we have to decide if this just has to be the CPAN/aptitude equivalent for more than software, or if we want the hardcore automation for finding the self-replicators
21:51 < drazak> Noahj: but uhm, I used enlightenment when I was helping the fork of the Arcane linux project, which lasted for all of 6 months(the fork, called Divine), as it came already compiled
21:51 < fenn> a lot of scientific and engineering papers dont give you all the information, they just summarize what they did
21:51 < kanzure> I guess ultimately they are always modeling
21:51 < kanzure> so the trick is to translate the models into the right format
21:51 < fenn> or handwave away the source code because of whatever reason
21:51 < kanzure> indeed
21:51 < kanzure> "reminder: write code here"
21:51 < drazak> Noahj: my servers are in that picture too, haha, and the KVM
21:52 < kanzure> okay, so then I forsee two splits
21:52 < kanzure> (1) the formalized knowledge, automated and encoded as software and various queryable datasets
21:52 < kanzure> (2) the knowledge stuff, see my AutoScholar ref in those paragraphs
21:52 < Noahj> Nice keyboard
21:52 < kanzure> not a split
21:52 < fenn> i want it to be automated or at least 'processable' otherwise it's just wikipedia or hobbycircuits.com
21:52 < kanzure> but it's the same system
21:52 < kanzure> fenn: true enough
21:52 < Noahj> Is that a model M?
21:52 < kanzure> yes, it's an M
21:52 < kanzure> I asked that same damn question
21:52 < drazak> Noahj: yeah, kanzure's already lusting over it
21:52 < Noahj> Is it dvorak? 
21:52 < Noahj> Heh
21:52 < drazak> I have 4 of them, too
21:53 < drazak> nah
21:53 < Noahj> I think I have one of those somewhere 
21:53 < drazak> I might rearrange one for Dvorak though
21:53 < Noahj> I'm just too lazy to do anything about it
21:53 < drazak> all of those have the keyheads that pop off
21:53 < Noahj> Yeah
21:53 < Noahj> It's very similar to the keyboard on my portable 8088 
21:54 < Noahj> Which, one of these days, is going to be useful. I swear it on my pretty floral bonnet. 
21:54 < drazak> rofl
21:54 < kanzure> fenn: okay, so it's a way to digest wikipedia and the rest of the knowledge bases (KBs) out there -- so we can queue up information per various topics, then let our programmers (i.e., us) go over it and formalize it
21:54 < fenn> i dont see the difference, actually
21:54 < fenn> oops
21:54 < kanzure> well, I want to do something like
21:54 < kanzure> apt-get install graphene-physics
21:54 < kanzure> and then apt-get install graphene-simulators
21:54 < kanzure> or something
21:54 < kanzure> where we can do apt-cache search graphene
21:54 < kanzure> and get back a list of ontologies related to graphene software
21:54 < drazak> ew apt!
21:54 < fenn> that's just plain debian
21:54 < kanzure> sure
21:55 < kanzure> but I'm giving an example :)
21:55 < fenn> it should already work, provided you have the software
21:55 < kanzure> but the difference is category organizations I think
21:55 < Noahj> Heh 
21:55 < kanzure> plus a distinction between processable data of the sort you are talking about
21:55 < kanzure> and knowledge packages
21:55 < kanzure> like the zips I keep on my site for later processing
21:56 < kanzure> btw, Noah and drazak - I have various zips on my server spread out all over the place on CNTs, brain implants, synthetic biology, longevity science, take your pick and I have something
21:56 < fenn> there could be different levels of 'processibility'
21:56 < kanzure> hm
21:56 < drazak> kanzure: maybe later
21:56 < kanzure> human processibility would be the knowledge-base stuff
21:56 < kanzure> and then computer stuff is obvious
21:56 < kanzure> I like that
21:56 < fenn> i.e. one is all natural language, straight from the webpage or journal
21:56 < kanzure> right, with links to the next level down
21:56 < fenn> two is related to other packages in the db
21:56 < kanzure> for people to follow and engineer new stuff if they want to
21:56 < fenn> three is basic units and physical properties
21:56 < kanzure> this sounds like namespaces on the wiki
21:56 < fenn> four is semantic/specialized units
21:57 < kanzure> okay
21:57 < kanzure> even if one layer fails
21:57 < kanzure> the others will still work
21:57 < kanzure> so stuff can still be made and so on
21:57 < fenn> five is simulated and auto-analyzed?
21:57 < kanzure> and the system will still be useful
21:57 < kanzure> hm
21:57 < kanzure> if that is five, then five is debug stuff / logs of processing ?
21:58 < kanzure> including human todo lists of the content?
21:58 < kanzure> one useful namespace would be a todo/workspace / scratchpad
21:58 < fenn> output of simulations, automatic, no human intervention
21:58 < kanzure> simulation output should be local, i.e. whoever the programmer is
21:58 < kanzure> not on the server, although server daemons can take requests - sure
21:58 < fenn> i guess
21:58 < fenn> it's just data, it doesnt matter where you do the simulations
21:58 < kanzure> okay
21:59 < fenn> phun does weird stuff to your brain.. makes all the words bounce off the sides of the window and ideas bounce around in your brain
21:59 < kanzure> so each namespace would have its own XML/wiki-like fileformat specs?
22:00 < kanzure> (wiki-namespace, that is)
22:00 < kanzure> do we want those to be our finalized layers?
22:00 < fenn> yea each specialized code module would have an XML DTD (or whatever's fashionable these days)
22:00 < fenn> schema
22:00 < drazak> anywho
22:00 < kanzure> is DTD anything like BNF?
22:00 < drazak> I'm going to go off for the night
22:00 < kanzure> g'night drazak
22:00 < kanzure> nice meeting you
22:00 < drazak> yep
22:00 -!- Enki-2 [n=weechat@c-71-234-190-248.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
22:00 < fenn> not really, it's less of a grammar, more format
22:01 < kanzure> hm
22:01 < fenn> i dont really know much about it actually
22:01 < kanzure> me either
22:01 < kanzure> I just know that w3c is under intense ping fire
22:01 < kanzure> from people requesting the DTD for each page load
22:01 < fenn> well that's dumb
22:02 < kanzure> maybe in the last 3 seconds it's changed!
22:02 < fenn> everything should be bittorrent by now sheesh
22:02 < kanzure> haha
22:03 < fenn> like, apache3 mod_torrent
22:03 < fenn> every hosted file becomes a torrent
22:03 < kanzure> uhh
22:03 < kanzure> Enki-2 has some thoughts on this
22:03 < kanzure> but on the other hand I thought you were joking
22:03 < kanzure> there's no reason to do DTD requests on each page load
22:03 < kanzure> just cache it once
22:03 < kanzure> it's not changing ;)
22:04 < fenn> why would a DTD be on w3c server anyway?
22:04 < kanzure> they do HTML definition stuff
22:04 < kanzure> Tim Berners-Lee et al
22:04 < fenn> ok, so real basic stuff
22:05 < kanzure> absolutely
22:05 < epitron> !chat
22:05 < krebs> it's just tagging and ontologies
22:05 < epitron> !chat
22:05 < krebs> i might rearrange one for Dvorak though
22:05 < kanzure> ?
22:05 < epitron> !chat
22:05 < krebs> Tim Berners-Lee et al
22:05 < epitron> :D
22:05 < epitron> he's learning
22:06 < fenn> argh kill it!
22:06 < epitron> !chat about i think
22:06 < krebs> i think I've narrowed down some ideas
22:06 < epitron> !chat about i think
22:06 < krebs> i think I have 4 of them, too
22:06 < epitron> !chat about i think
22:06 < krebs> i think I'd have to be the source code too
22:06 < epitron> !chat about i think
22:06 < krebs> i think I'd have to be our finalized layers?
22:06 < fenn> !chat about epitron
22:06 < krebs> incorrect usage, ask for help using 'krebs: help chat'
22:06 < epitron> !chuck 8
22:06 < krebs> Chuck Norris' tears cure cancer. Too bad he has never cried. [score=8.319]
22:06 -!- Enki-2 [n=weechat@c-71-234-190-248.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
22:06 < fenn> stupid bot
22:06 < epitron> must you knock everything fenn?
22:07 < epitron> go get some antidepressants or something
22:07 < kanzure> uhh
22:07 < kanzure> you still play around with bots?
22:07 < epitron> no, i just find them handy tools
22:07 < epitron> for example
22:07 < epitron> !urls search fenn
22:07 < krebs> [2008/04/07 18:41:38] <fenn> http://fennetic.net/pub/irc/phun.png
22:07 < epitron> !google the meaning of life
22:07 < krebs> Results for the meaning of life: 1. Meaning of life - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meaning_of_life | 2. The Meaning of Life (1983): http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0085959/ | 3. The Meaning of Life: Intro: http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/06/the-meaning-of-life-intro/
22:07 < fenn> *cough irc client cough*
22:08 < kanzure> fenn: heh
22:08 < epitron> fenn: what if you close it?
22:08 < epitron> or login from school?
22:08 < epitron> or you want to show another person on irc a link? 
22:08 < kanzure> ssh into your client
22:08 < epitron> it's there if you need it
22:08 < kanzure> not to spam us though :)
22:09 < epitron> yes, spamming is bad :)
22:09 < epitron> i just wanted to demonstrate
22:09 < fenn> can you at least turn off the link title "feature"?
22:09 < epitron> sure
22:09 < epitron> if you guys don't want that, it's toggleable
22:09 < fenn> tak
22:09 < epitron> i find it useful
22:09 < kanzure> that's only because you don't visit links :)
22:09 < kanzure> haha
22:09 < epitron> do you want it disabled kanz?
22:10 < epitron> yep!
22:10 < epitron> ;)
22:11 < epitron> so i take that as an implicit yes
22:11 < kanzure> fenn: do you want to set a target date for formal specifications? If I have the concepts down, I can go off to write them. Don't know if everything is crystal clear yet. you?
22:11 < fenn> kanzure: http://slip.sourceforge.net/
22:11 < krebs> [Link Info] 
22:11 < kanzure> ooh
22:12 < kanzure> that looks interesting
22:12 < kanzure> does this mean I have to learn python? :)
22:12 < fenn> it's easy and readable and general
22:12 < fenn> it's xml, not python
22:12 < epitron> !config set url.display_link_info 0
22:12 < krebs> okay then :)
22:12 < fenn> but learning python would be a good thing i think
22:12 < kanzure> yes
22:12 < epitron> python is a piece of piss to learn
22:12 < epitron> it took me an hour
22:13 < epitron> the language is so simple :)
22:13 < kanzure> I still have to go searching through the docs from time to time
22:13 < kanzure> there are some little quirks that I am not familiar with
22:13 < epitron> well, i can help
22:13 < kanzure> rather important ones, I might add
22:13 < epitron> i know it quite well
22:13 < kanzure> great
22:14 < epitron> i'm also familiar with many standard libraries :)
22:14 < kanzure> fenn: so you think that's a good implementation for the units namespace?
22:14 < epitron> and handy language features
22:14 < kanzure> I guess we want to distinguish classes of units versus instances of units
22:15 < kanzure> or would we just tag it {{Category:it's this class}} ?
22:15 < kanzure> ansewr is no, but I'm getting my neurons to fire
22:15 < kanzure> *answer
22:15 < fenn> i spose you could do module.class or class.method or something
22:15 < kanzure> we need include statements
22:15 < fenn> not really
22:15 < kanzure> what's the alternative
22:16 < kanzure> I guess all units are specifying themselves
22:16 < kanzure> and shouldn't rely on others?
22:16 < kanzure> but there are different ways to interpret units, IIRC
22:16 < fenn> if special units always include the module name then you can just load the modules listed in the file
22:16 < kanzure> for example, energy can be joules and other forms
22:17 < fenn> the standard physical units cover a lot of ground
22:17 < kanzure> okay
22:17 < kanzure> good point
22:17 < kanzure> there's no reason to not use the direct units anyway
22:18 < kanzure> no 'meta-units' that are just simplified packages
22:18 < kanzure> erm, that are just encapsulations
22:18 < kanzure> or if we do allow encapsulations, it's easy to specify them with a #REDIRECT
22:18 < fenn> could you explain that so i know what you're talking about?
22:18 < fenn> an example
22:18 < kanzure> hm
22:18 < epitron> what are you guys trying to create an ontology for?
22:18 < kanzure> unit: Newtons
22:18 < fenn> building stuff
22:18 < epitron> so, all physical matter?
22:18 < kanzure> Newtons are really just kilograms * m/sec^2
22:19 < kanzure> but yet they are a unit
22:19 < fenn> epitron: it's starting to look that way
22:19 < kanzure> epitron: we hope to not go in circles
22:19 < epitron> i think cyc has that already
22:19 < epitron> along with ai rules
22:19 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Skdb
22:19 < epitron> you could leverage that
22:19 < epitron> (i have a research copy of cyc somewhere)
22:19 < kanzure> that's a "common sense" database
22:20 < epitron> right, but it's also extendable with predicates :)
22:20 < fenn> last time i looked at cyc it didnt make any sense to me
22:20 < epitron> and it can do processing
22:20 < epitron> fenn: check out doug lenat's google tech talk
22:20 < kanzure> Enki-2 might suggest predicate logic via prolog
22:20 < epitron> fenn: their website is confusing
22:20 < epitron> prolog is kinda brute force
22:21 < kanzure> this is a brute force project ;)
22:21 < epitron> i don't think people use prolog for large problem spaces
22:21 < epitron> right but it's also incredibly huge in scope
22:21 < kanzure> fenn: it's okay, problems will just show up as we go
22:21 < kanzure> so as long as our software base is extendable we're ok
22:21 < epitron> you can't use a brute force algorithm... it'll take eons
22:21 < kanzure> the Newton = kg * m/sec^2 problem is not much of one
22:21 < fenn> prolog eh.. that's like java isnt it
22:21 < kanzure> is it?
22:22 < epitron> it's nothing like java
22:22 < fenn> i mean, its a crappy language that they use in universities and standards bodies
22:22 < kanzure> at least it doesn't blow sun up your ass
22:22 < kanzure> or maybe it does- I've never used it
22:22 < kanzure> does Sun have an influence on prolog?
22:22 < epitron> it's a languge for specifying logical constraints, then giving you particular solutions 
22:23 < epitron> it's what oldschool AI people thought AI would be
22:23 < epitron> until they realized how intractible real world problems are when specified like that
22:23 < epitron> kanzure: prolog is an academic language
22:23 < epitron> :)
22:23 < fenn> hmm ok
22:23 < epitron> people use it for problems that require that kind of programming
22:23 < epitron> but usually the problems can't be very big
22:24 < fenn> why is it limited to small programs/
22:24 < epitron> and if it's a common problem, people also usually reimplement the problem solver in another language and sell that
22:24 < epitron> (like scheduling problems)
22:24 < epitron> fenn: because it has to enumerate all possible states of your logical system
22:25 < epitron> it's like O(n!) or something :)
22:25 < fenn> why dont they use lazy evaluation then!
22:25 < epitron> where n is the number of binary variables
22:25 < epitron> uhmmm.. because it's not a functional language
22:25 < epitron> it can optimize by caching previous states
22:26 < epitron> but that doesn't help with states that aren't dependant on previous ones
22:26 < epitron> also, it's usually not worth it to cache anything
22:26 < epitron> because you'd blow out your RAM pretty fast
22:27 < epitron> i'm sure there are more advanced logic solvers that use fancy optimization techniques to prune search space
22:27 < epitron> but pure logic is limited
22:28 < epitron> pure logical systems don't exist in nature... (except maybe at the lowest level)
22:28 < epitron> (but to simulate the universe from the lowest level, you'd need an insanely powerful computer)
22:29 < epitron> (basically you'd need another universe)
22:29 < epitron> :D
22:30 < fenn> well, prolog is something, but i dont think its worth using
22:30 < epitron> me either
22:30 < epitron> i recommended cyc :)
22:30 < fenn> i'm watching the google talk.. well listening to it
22:31 < epitron> sweet
22:31 < epitron> i'm not sure you want to use the cyc inference engine, but their ontology seems quite well thought out
22:31 < fenn> i bet cyc has a symbol grounding problem
22:31 < epitron> at the least it would be good to yank data out of
22:31 < epitron> what's a symbol grounding problem
22:32 < epitron> nevermind, reading wikipedia
22:32 < fenn> just a big blob of words
22:32 < kanzure> we don't need just one ontology, epitron
22:32 < epitron> yeah, it's more than that. it has relations
22:32 < kanzure> many ontologies
22:32 < kanzure> many approaches
22:33 < kanzure> many ways to find what you are looking for
22:33 < kanzure> while an overall search engine of all of the content would, of course, also be included
22:33 < epitron> *sigh*
22:33 < epitron> i guess i have to read your crazy wiki page. hold on.
22:33 < fenn> no, i mean the words are related to each other, but it doesnt know what a square looks like, or how to build a bridge
22:34 < kanzure> yep
22:34 < epitron> right, but any AI would benefit hugely from something like cyc
22:34 < fenn> yes of course
22:34 < fenn> (if it works)
22:34 < epitron> it's a shortcut to learning all the common-sense knowledge that it takes us the first 4 years of our lives to learn :)
22:37 < epitron> kanzure: this wiki page is kinda confusing
22:37 < fenn> another thing, not sure if its a problem, is that humans use categories, not strict logical relations
22:38 < epitron> "the idea is to come up with as much social knowledge as possible (stuff that can't be derived from first principles on the spot) and then connect all of the components together and fish out the Hamiltonian paths."
22:38 < epitron> what's social knowledge? :)
22:38 < fenn> categories are a lot more fuzzy error resistant
22:38 < epitron> fuzzy categories are fuzzy
22:38 < epitron> tight categories are not :)
22:38 < fenn> epitron: social knowledge is knowledge spread throughout a society
22:38 < epitron> it all depends on how you define their boundaries
22:39 < fenn> i'm pretty sure all categories are fuzzy
22:39 < epitron> what about the category of all people who are exactly 5 feet tall
22:39 < epitron> without shoes
22:39 < fenn> that's not a category
22:39 < epitron> when they wake up
22:39 < epitron> :D
22:39 < epitron> why isn't that a category?
22:40 < epitron>   category
22:40 < epitron>        n 1: a collection of things sharing a common attribute; "there
22:40 < epitron>             are two classes of detergents" [syn: {class}, {family}]
22:40 < epitron> anyhow this is off the point
22:40 < epitron> how is societal knowledge different from "stuff that can't be derived from first principles"?
22:40 < epitron> you just mean, things that require experience?
22:41 < fenn> some societal knowledge can be derived from mathematics
22:41 < fenn> but then you have to derive it
22:42 < fenn> i'm not interested in deriving things, because it's so hard to prove that it's right without actually testing it out
22:42 < fenn> it might be useful later on though
22:44 < fenn> there's a lot of 'probably's in cyc's output, i'd like to explicitly specify those assertions
22:44 < epitron> so by societal knowledge, you just mean knowledge?
22:45 < fenn> yeah pretty much
22:45 < fenn> but it will be used by a disparate group of users
22:46 < epitron> so this is some kind of collaborate knowledge system
22:46 < fenn> people who dont necessarily know each other or have the same focus and goals
22:47 < epitron> i think the wiki page would be better if it didn't talk about implementation before it's described the goals :)
22:48 < fenn> um, it does
22:50 -!- Noahj [n=noah@ip68-14-89-105.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
22:52 < epitron> "The societal engineering knowledge database (skdb) is kind of like aptitude, yum, CPAN, rpm, etc., in that it hosts modules (blackboxes) for projects, whether digital or physical."
22:52 < epitron> that's implementation
22:52 < fenn> ok maybe not
22:52 < fenn> wah.
22:52 < epitron> you guys are attemping to solve a pretty difficult problem by yourselves
22:53 < epitron> you should probably try to combine your efforts with other people who are trying to do the same thing
23:01 < fenn> jeez this guy throws some AI jargon around like there's no tomorrow
23:02 < fenn> "a small number of what we call sibling disjoint assertions in the knowledge base take the place of billions of class level disjointness assertions and hundreds of trillions of instance level non-set membership assertions"
23:17 < kanzure> epitron: yes, the wiki page needs more work. I learned about OSCOMAK or whatever yesterday, and knew it was the same thing, but then realized that the wiki page didn't make this clear.
23:18 < kanzure> epitron: also, there may be a better introduction on the self-replication page that describes the goals
23:19 < kanzure> remember the idea about fishing out Hamiltonian cycles to find self-replicators?
23:19 < kanzure> I remember you not being interested in that
23:19 < kanzure> so that's probably why you don't remember.
23:19 < epitron> haha
23:19 < epitron> i'm not interested in the technical details until i know what the point is :)
23:19 < epitron> that's all
23:19 < kanzure> I've already told you the point
23:19 < kanzure> you're still disinterested
23:19 < kanzure> :(
23:19 < epitron> ok :)
23:19 < epitron> it's not that it's not cool
23:19 < epitron> i just don't care about the nitty gritty
23:20 < epitron> just like you probably don't care about the nitty gritty of whtaever weird esoteric thing i find intersting
23:20 < kanzure> nope, remember I have my Infinite Motivator Drive.
23:20 < epitron> i'm sure i can run it down :)
23:26 < Aulere> epitron: have you *seen* heybryan.org? I wouldn't be so sure ;-)
23:27 < kanzure> no, he hasn't
23:27 < kanzure> he doesn't click on links.
23:28 < Aulere> hehe
23:38 < epitron> kanzure: i do click on your links
23:38 < epitron> then i am confronted with a confounding mess of details
23:39 < epitron> :)
23:39 < epitron> and i close them
23:39 < epitron> some of the pages are good... i can tell what it's about by the Table of Contents
23:39 < epitron> but there's generally no introduction or summary
23:40 < epitron> i mean, i'm not saying it should be different...
23:40 < epitron> if you're working on something on the cutting edge, it has to be a mess first
23:40 < epitron> you organize it and figure out the underlying coherent structure as you go along
23:40 < epitron> but i don't wanna read it
23:40 < epitron> :)
23:58 < kanzure> I did a quick speed-post over at the Slashdot article on RepRap
23:58 < kanzure> http://hardware.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=514462&cid=22996516