--- Day changed Wed Apr 09 2008
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05:01 < epitron> http://funtarded.com/pics/show/1660
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07:37 < kanzure> http://pdbwiki.org 
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17:59 < kanzure> fenn: I was figuring today that all we really need to do skdb is just standardized fileformats and IO to programs/packages in a specific way. http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Skdb has the specific notes from today at the bottom.
18:04 < kanzure> epitron: my bito.ponzo.net login is not working
18:07 < kanzure> looks like I have hosting at http://biowebhost.kr/ now
18:08 < epitron> kanzure: did it work before?
18:09 < kanzure> no
18:09 < kanzure> didn't check :)
18:09 < kanzure> but today's my data dumping day
18:09 < epitron> so it's still got that "changeme" password
18:09 < epitron> whatever it was
18:10 < kanzure> yes
18:10 < kanzure> I know it too
18:10 < epitron> and it didn't work?
18:10 < kanzure> wait
18:10 < kanzure> do you have an ftpd running?
18:10 < epitron> yep
18:10 < kanzure> then it should have worked
18:10 < epitron> but it's not using the same user database :)
18:10 < kanzure> aha
18:10 < kanzure> okay
18:10 < epitron> you gotta use ssh/scp/sftp
18:10 < kanzure> I'll use SCP
18:12  * fenn looks
18:13 < epitron> kanzure: it would be nice if you changed the changeme password too.. i don't remember it being that secure :)
18:13 < kanzure> it's not
18:13 < kanzure> I'll change it
18:13 < kanzure> hehe, bio.cc has me hosted now
18:13 < kanzure> This is the same guy that has all of the bio*.org domain names
18:14 < kanzure> He set up something like 10,000 wikis on 10,000 domains ...
18:14 < epitron> ok, that'd retarded
18:14 < kanzure> sort of
18:14 < kanzure> http://biodatabase.org/
18:14 < kanzure> the content is good :)
18:14 < epitron> way to fragment the universe
18:14 < kanzure> haha
18:14 < kanzure> yep
18:14 < fenn> agree w/epitron
18:15 < kanzure> fenn: check my file format notes above
18:15 < fenn> i'm reading, and not understanding
18:15 < kanzure> Have you ever hard coded usage requirements into your program?
18:15 < fenn> could you give an example of a program we'd interface with?
18:15 < kanzure> a chair simulator
18:16 < fenn> the 'interface' would be some test layer right?
18:16 < kanzure> # chairSimulator -3dinputmesh my.mesh 
18:16 < fenn> and unit evaluation hooks
18:16 < kanzure> yeah, I mean passing parameters and so on
18:16 < kanzure> yep
18:16 < fenn> so uh, why does it need to download anything?
18:16 < kanzure> well, you don't have all of the programs locally to interpret the files do you ?
18:16 < fenn> cant we just use apt?
18:16 < kanzure> and grabbing all of them at once is bulky, unless you have the space, in which case go right ahead
18:16 < kanzure> huh?
18:16 < fenn> to manage software
18:17 < kanzure> right right
18:17 < kanzure> but think about what other topics we've been talking about
18:17 < kanzure> there are specific file formats that software work with
18:17 < kanzure> this is where we specify special features like units and so on
18:17 < fenn> that will be part of the package source
18:17 < kanzure> correct
18:17 < kanzure> but not only that
18:18 < kanzure> but we should explicitly specify what meta-data it is expecting
18:18 < kanzure> meta-data like "yes, I can use a 3ds file"
18:18 < kanzure> all of the command line parameters are hardcoded 
18:18 < kanzure> and then written up in man pages
18:18 < kanzure> this is not good ;)
18:18 < fenn> we should at least try to settle on a small number of formats
18:19 < kanzure> (I'm specifically talking about IO-related parameters, there are some flags that you can throw to gcc that will make it do other behaviors, this is different)
18:19 < kanzure> perhaps
18:19 < fenn> too bad all 3d file formats suck balls
18:19 < kanzure> I'm all for integrating formats, and so we'll probably have some programs to help do that
18:19 < kanzure> (converters)
18:19 < fenn> IGES is okay-ish
18:20 < fenn> and widely used in CAD
18:20 < kanzure> I've played with tons of formats - STL, msh, VRML, VRML2, blender, 3ds, obj (yes, ambiguous), max, geom, and tons of others
18:20 < fenn> ok, so the loungechair package has a 3d model of a lounge chair
18:21 < kanzure> yes
18:21 < fenn> it provides: what?
18:21 < kanzure> and so a user should be able to download that 3d model via apt/autogenix
18:21 < kanzure> or really they could just say apt-get all information related to loungechair-pack
18:21 < fenn> er, maybe provides is not the right place, since that should be functionality (and a 3d model isnt a functionality of a chair)
18:21 < kanzure> the 3d model provides information for simulation, I'd expect
18:21 < kanzure> right
18:21 < kanzure> it's more like a functional unit for a simulation
18:21 < kanzure> while the loungechair package should be ... instructions to build the chair
18:22 < fenn> the package should have everything relating to that specific lounge chair
18:22 < kanzure> such as lathing, chopping wood, whatever (obviously chopping wood should be another package of information for programming)
18:22 < kanzure> right
18:22 < fenn> CAM files, maybe
18:22 < kanzure> ahuh
18:22 < kanzure> I don't want to care too much about extensions
18:22 < kanzure> extensions are useful, but you lose lots of information
18:23 < kanzure> metadata on the file is pretty darn useful
18:23 < kanzure> just like the DTD statements on (valid) XHTML pages
18:23 < fenn> CAM is like machine language instructions for CNC'ing out the pieces
18:23 < kanzure> of course, it's all the same for XHTML, but nobody seems to care?
18:23 < kanzure> ah, neat
18:23 < fenn> more precisely, CAM is the program that generates the machine language
18:23 < fenn> from a cad file
18:24 < kanzure> epitron: it works, thanks
18:24 < fenn> explaining human by-hand operations is going to be hard
18:24 < kanzure> http://bito.ponzo.net/~kanzure does not work, though
18:25 < kanzure> fenn: yes; I suppose this will be accounted for if we ever can train neural nets to do hand movements with constructed hands or something?
18:25 < kanzure> that's lots of complexity that frankly I think will come about on its own
18:25 < epitron> kanzure: static.heybryan.org
18:25 < kanzure> the point is that these specs can support such a development if that comes about
18:25 < kanzure> epitron: ah, right
18:25 < kanzure> I wonder if I switched DNS hosts or not
18:25 < epitron> you did not :)
18:26 < epitron> you switched and switched back 5 minutes later
18:26 < kanzure> ns1.everydns.net ?
18:26 < epitron> hold on
18:26 < epitron> i'm making sure it works
18:26 < epitron> nope
18:26 < epitron> looks like it's down again
18:26 < epitron> you have some kind of power
18:26 < kanzure> hm
18:26 < kanzure> you mean, everydns is down?
18:27 < epitron> it's not down
18:27 < epitron> but it's not letting me use it as a resolver
18:27 < fenn> presumably there already exists some type of parts-assembly language that we can take advantage of (it's probably proprietary or standards-encrusted)
18:27 < epitron> my other everydns hosted domains are working
18:27 < kanzure> fenn: the package specification file format gets to update, and when apt/autogenix grabs that file from the wiki and realizes it doesn't know how to interpret version 5.x or something,
18:27 < kanzure>  it can then go fetch a script that can do it; on top of that, this same structure works when trying to crawl through the database to put parts together
18:28 < kanzure> fenn: yeah. I was figuring that there *must* be a 'parameter wrapping library' of the type that I am talking about
18:28 < fenn> fetch a script that downloads a new version of autogenix?
18:28 < kanzure> where we can set up a centralized server for the equivalent of 'DTDs' or file-format-meta-information if that makes any sense
18:28 < kanzure> fenn: in that case, yes, since the package format changed. But if it was just any other file (i.e., the package might link to a .HTML, and you don't have something that can do HTML for some reason) -- then go grab a type of program that can deal with it, such as a viewer.
18:29 < fenn> uh.. parameter wrapping library.. cant we just use XML?
18:29 < kanzure> probably :)
18:29 < kanzure> then we just need a program to make the XML files
18:29 < fenn> hurr
18:29 < epitron> kanzure: hmm... check if your everydns.net account is still setup
18:29 < kanzure> doing it by hand is lots of overhead
18:29 < fenn> no we'd be writing the xml files by hand
18:29 < fenn> because that's the source code
18:29 < kanzure> nono
18:29 < fenn> not in XML of course, in slip-xml
18:29 < kanzure> okay, if we were doing all of the packages in python, sure
18:30 < kanzure> I was about to say, the XML files would be like an extra step in your makefile process
18:30 < epitron> kanzure: everydns.net is up, and it's answering DNS lookup requests, AND it's resolving all of MY domain names, but *.heybryan.org times out
18:30 < fenn> this way all the inherited properties automatically update without any changes to the source
18:30 < kanzure> epitron: because I didn't switch. I thought you were telling me that everydns.net was down, so I was going to wait until ... forget it. Hold on.
18:30 < fenn> slip-xml is just xml written in a different notation, it's not actually python
18:30 < kanzure> hm
18:30 < kanzure> okay
18:30 < epitron> kanzure: no, that's not true
18:30 < kanzure> epitron: huh?
18:30 < epitron> it's because of something internal to everydns
18:31 < epitron> i could look up www.microsoft.com on my own DNS even though ms isn't pointing at it
18:31 < fenn> although, just doing it in python is an interesting idea
18:31 < epitron> i could even have my dns give a different IP
18:31 < kanzure> epitron: I am still on a different DNS
18:31 < epitron> that has nothing to do with this problem
18:31 < kanzure> fenn: I was wondering about inline possibilities
18:31 < epitron> this problem is that everydns doesn't show your heybryan.org records
18:31 < epitron> so that if you DO switch
18:31 < fenn> inline what?
18:31 < epitron> you won't et anything
18:31 < kanzure> inline parameter specifications
18:31 < fenn> please elaborate
18:32 < kanzure> myLibraryObject->addParameter("hey", objectTypeID, "natural language description for humans") where objectTypeID would refer to, say, XHTML 3.2
18:32 < kanzure> in python this may make sense
18:32 < fenn> sure
18:32 < kanzure> but hardcoded in a C program? heh' kind of silly, perhaps
18:32 < epitron> ...
18:32 < epitron> i'm at work guys
18:32 < epitron> i don't have a lot of time
18:32 < epitron> you wanna focus?
18:32 < epitron> i just need kanz to check his everydns account
18:32 < kanzure> epitron: oh, you say it does not have my records?
18:32 < kanzure> okay
18:32 < epitron> and make sure it's still setup
18:33 < kanzure> yes, it is setup
18:33 < fenn> object.parameters.add("hey", type, '''docstring''')
18:33 < epitron> ok, so something is messed up about it
18:33 < fenn> i'd rather something more structured though
18:33 < kanzure> fenn: sure
18:33 < kanzure> fenn: I think that 'type' might be too simple
18:33 < epitron> kanzure: can you gimme the login/pass?
18:33 < kanzure> I guess it could be an ID to the file format
18:33 < kanzure> epitron: no
18:33 < epitron> maybe you setup some detail
18:33 < epitron> well, change your pass first
18:33 < epitron> :)
18:34 < kanzure> Host	Type	Value	MX	TTL	Delete
18:34 < kanzure> heybryan.org	A	70.113.54.112		3600	[delete]
18:34 < kanzure> heybryan.org	MX	heybryan.org	0	3600	[delete]
18:34 < kanzure> static.heybryan.org	CNAME	bito.ponzo.net		3600	[delete]
18:34 < fenn> object.parameters.add("hey", type, '''docstring''', version) :)
18:34 < kanzure> but you said more structured
18:34 < epitron> that's not the problem
18:34 < kanzure> epitron: that's all that I changed :)
18:34 < epitron> the problem is that it doesn't seem to even know that heybryan.org is one of its zones
18:34 < kanzure> hm
18:34 < fenn> oh i mean like, object.type = "furniture"
18:34 < kanzure> "Currently: no one has access to heybryan.org's zone data"
18:34 < epitron> i'm thinking you might've clicked the wrong thing with you crated it
18:34 < fenn> object.docstring = ''' here is a long winded description in natural language'''
18:34 < kanzure> fenn: that might be too generalized. I'd like the object type ID to correlate one-to-one with the wiki/db.
18:35 < kanzure> epitron: okay, try now
18:35 < fenn> what's more specific? type = loungechair?
18:35 < epitron> trying
18:35 < fenn> type = loungechair5547
18:35 < epitron> timeout
18:35 < kanzure> epitron: what about http://heybryan.org/ ?
18:35 < epitron> kanzure: in the left column, is it under "primary domains" or one of the others?
18:36 < kanzure> primary
18:36 < kanzure> fenn: I suppose. First come first serve naming basis?
18:36 < epitron> that's really weird
18:36 < fenn> ID = 4206f054bb8070f0e4456aac51592e7e
18:36 < kanzure> hm
18:36 < kanzure> if you make it complex,
18:36 < kanzure> then you might force them to use a way to select file formats from the database
18:37 < kanzure> so that they use standardized tools to interpret files and so on
18:37 < kanzure> instead of doing it themselves
18:37 < kanzure> that might be interesting?
18:37 < kanzure> but it might get OOPy, like Java.
18:37 < kanzure> (Java's library, I mean)
18:37 < fenn> uh.. i'd prefer ease of hackability
18:37 < kanzure> me too
18:37 < fenn> since we're stupid
18:37 < kanzure> epitron: I need to run for a few minutes
18:37 < fenn> and people who take advantage of non-public interfaces should expect to get bitten
18:40 < fenn> the file.pack or filepack-information.html is exactly analogous to the "control" file in a debian package
18:41 < fenn> and that's what i was writing earlier, the valid types of statements you could make in that file
18:41 < fenn> but it got sorta out of hand
18:49 < epitron> hahaha
18:49 < epitron> this project you guys are working on sounds insane
18:51 < epitron> how are you going to do this with the horrible software dev tools we have today, and without the collaboration of major players in various fields?
18:51 < epitron> why don't you just make something that's not bound to fail completely
18:51 < epitron> like.. a self-replicating gnat
18:52 < epitron> build UP to automated-knowledge-system
18:52 < epitron> danny hillis has been trying to get this thing going too -- but at a much more tractable level => http://freebase.com
18:53 < epitron> people would build their collaborative project things on top of freebase, and a pile of other things
18:53 < epitron> and hopefully some new programming environment, like intentional software 
18:54 < epitron> although intentsoft still creates "dead" programs
18:54 < epitron> so it's kinda doomed as well
18:54 < fenn> epitron: if we could make a self replicating gnat, we would
18:55 < fenn> as it is, even reprap is fumbling
18:55 < fenn> i'm not trying to make a database of all the world's knowledge
18:56 < epitron> okay..
18:56 < fenn> a specific subset of DIY projects, namely the ones that are useful for making other DIY projects
18:56 < epitron> ok
18:57 < epitron> but restricting the scope of the domain isn't going to restrict the scope of the knowledge system
18:57 < fenn> kanzure: we want functionality loops, not dependency loops...
18:57 < epitron> it's still going to have a automated-knowledge-management-system
18:57 < epitron> it'll just have less knowledge in it :)
18:57 < kanzure> fenn: filepack-information.html is supposed to be something like a paper on the subject of 'file'. Does your comment on filepack-information.html still hold?
18:57 < fenn> x provides x, cycle cycle cycle, now you have 9 million x
18:58 < fenn> x depends x, you have nothing
18:58 < kanzure> epitron: yes, I know about freebase - I sent in my resume
18:58 < epitron> that's an interesting idea
18:58 < epitron> buuut.. that's emergence
18:58 < epitron> people are notoriously bad at predicting emergent behaviour
18:58 < kanzure> that's not emergence
18:58 < epitron> it's basically trial and error
18:58 < fenn> kanzure: no, what i'm talking about explains the dependencies of the technology you are building
18:59 < fenn> not the software
18:59 < kanzure> fenn: okay.
18:59 < epitron> i still don't know what you mean by a functionality loop
18:59 < fenn> but it doesnt describe the details
18:59 < epitron> what's an example?
18:59 < kanzure> okay, have you ever seen a mining facility?
18:59 < fenn> epitron: woodworkers often make tools out of wood
18:59 < kanzure> they have large machinery digging into the ground
18:59 < kanzure> this machinery is made out of metal
18:59 < kanzure> which was in the ground in the first place
18:59 < epitron> oh
19:00 < epitron> so just technology feedback
19:00 < kanzure> that's ambiguous, but I guess
19:00 < epitron> how is functionalty loop better? :)
19:00 < fenn> yeah it's positive feedback
19:00 < kanzure> technology feedback may as well mean "let's give them comments"
19:00 < kanzure> but yes, it's a feedback loop
19:00 < epitron> haha
19:00 < epitron> right
19:00 < epitron> +loop
19:01 < epitron> software is notoriously bad at technology feedback though
19:01 < kanzure> fenn: we might have to investigate freebase more closely
19:01 < epitron> we reinvent the wheel constantly
19:01 < epitron> everything is man-made
19:01 < fenn> well, of course
19:01 < epitron> if you're trying to have software be a part of the loop, your loop is broken
19:01 < fenn> if you have a code generator you are fucking up badly
19:02 < fenn> nobody writes assembly code any more (unless they have to)
19:02 < epitron> if the datastructure for your source code is a text file, while the datastructure for your molecule is some complex efficient high dimensional thing...
19:02 < kanzure> fenn:  for example - helium: http://freebase.com/view/guid/9202a8c04000641f80000000045be4e9 -- but it does not look tech-oriented? don't know
19:02 < epitron> you got your design upside-down :)
19:03 < fenn> epitron: the text file is just a serialization format, which is necessary for transmitting information around the net
19:03 < epitron> we send lots of stuff around the net
19:03 < fenn> kanzure: i'm going to guess it's a structured wikipedia, without even looking
19:03 < epitron> that isn't text files :)
19:03 < kanzure> fenn: yes. So it has the structured data for various objects. It does not look project-oriented. Can we make use of it or not?
19:04 < fenn> geez they dont have very many fields
19:04 < kanzure> hehe :)
19:04 < kanzure> they need to open up CRC
19:04 < fenn> what about isotope ratios
19:04 < kanzure> (the chemistry/physics handbook)
19:04 < fenn> sure you can derive it since there's only two isotopes, but not always
19:04 < epitron> anyhow, i'm done. :)
19:04 < epitron> ttyl
19:05 < fenn> ciao chicka mao mao
19:05 < fenn> kanzure: also, their url isnt very structured :\
19:05 < fenn> 9202a8c04000641f80000000045be4e9
19:05 < fenn> how about physics/elements/helium
19:06 < kanzure> heh
19:06 < kanzure> I want multiple ontologies
19:07 < kanzure> so that we can do virtual linking
19:07 < fenn> yeah sure why not
19:07 < kanzure> (pretty simple request, IMO)
19:07 < fenn> they'd all point to the same hash
19:07 < kanzure> first of all, this website seems too strict and structured
19:07 < kanzure> even though structure is what we want, I think just dumping our files into a mediawiki installation with some server daemons would work
19:07 < kanzure> and let people edit and backup copies of the db
19:07 < kanzure> right?
19:07 < kanzure> that's what I've been imagining skdb as
19:07 < fenn> no, you need to validate everything
19:08 < kanzure> ah, that's right
19:08 < fenn> otherwise you cant do automated processing
19:08 < kanzure> that should just be a flag
19:08 < fenn> this is why openfarmtech is ... less than useful
19:08 < kanzure> it should be a flag for confirmation or something
19:08 < kanzure> or maybe a certain namespace can be "open to the public" and the other is "validated" ?
19:08 < kanzure> and admins would import data into the validated-namespace
19:09 < fenn> you can apply different validation codes to each revision
19:09 < fenn> like, 'validated, passed unit tests, assembled irl, tested irl'
19:10 < fenn> validation is like making sure the file format is correct, in w3c speak
19:10 < kanzure> oh
19:10 < kanzure> you don't mean "we've checked the books"
19:10 < kanzure> but that could be another level of validation
19:10 < fenn> oh, i forgot about that
19:10 < kanzure> okay, so fact-checks, format validation, software unit tests, assembled irl, tested irl
19:10 < fenn> on the other hand, i dont have much faith in engineering from first principles
19:11 < fenn> well, i do, but i also demand that it be tested experimentally
19:11 < kanzure> so? fact-check would be for, ex: hydrogen mass
19:11 < fenn> which isotope? :)
19:11 < fenn> book will say something stupid like 1.00123
19:12 < fenn> but mass of 1H is like .9999
19:12 < kanzure> "which isotope" would have to be a question answered by the file format specs, i.e. either you can specify isotopes with sub-datasets, or you could have one file per isotope if things start getting ridiculous (and then a zip for hydrogen plus its three isotopes or whatever)
19:12 < fenn> ah its 1.00783
19:12 < kanzure> deutrium, hydrogen, titrium? I forget
19:14 < fenn> mass of 1H is 1.00783 - i guess that's proton plus electron minus binding energy
19:15 < fenn>  units electronmass
19:15 < fenn>         Definition: 5.485799110e-4 u = 9.1093819e-31 kg
19:16 < fenn> Unknown unit 'hydrogenmass'
19:16 < fenn> units protonmass Definition: 1.00727646688 u = 1.6726216e-27 kg
19:16 < fenn> units protonmass+electronmass amu * 1.007825
19:16 < kanzure> :)
19:17 < fenn> wtf why is protonmass 1.00727 amu?
19:18 < fenn> 12C/12 seems kinda silly
19:22 < kanzure> do we want to try to integrate with freebase or not.
19:22 < kanzure> intuition says no
19:22 < fenn> no
19:22 < fenn> freebase is the death throes of academia, imho
19:23 < fenn> cyc is way better anyway
19:25 < kanzure> people keep on talking about cyc, but each time I look at it it just seems like a giant vocabulary association deal
19:25 < kanzure> ".. of everyday common knowledge"
19:25 < kanzure> what the hell does that mean
19:25 < fenn> yes but it is code too, not just data
19:25 < fenn> stuff like, water flows downhill, people age 1 year per year
19:25 < kanzure> oh, btw, I've been trying to meet up with the texai guy
19:25 < fenn> you can use that to do NLP stuff
19:26 < kanzure> he lives in Austin somewhere.
19:26 < kanzure> neurolinguistic programming? natural language processing?
19:26 < fenn> natural language processing
19:26 < kanzure> code too, interesting
19:26 < kanzure> is it worth investigating?
19:26 < kanzure> I think our plan of action is pretty solid as it is
19:27 < fenn> investigate using cyc in skdb?
19:27 < kanzure> but I don't want to ignore a potentially useful tool just because I'm confident ;)
19:27 < kanzure> yeah
19:27 < fenn> it might be very useful, yes
19:27 < fenn> i'll have to look at it again, first time i didnt know any lisp so it was gibberish
19:28 < kanzure> lisp is something like 
19:28 < kanzure> ($var $var2 $var3 function) 
19:28 < kanzure> right?
19:28 < fenn> hmm..
19:28 < fenn> no
19:28 < fenn> you cant express lisp in most languages
19:30 < fenn> ((predicate $var) function) or ((function) function) and more
19:31 < fenn> you can define a function that accepts 3 vars though, of course
19:31 < fenn> anyway, lisp has a steep learning curve and turns your brain inside out
19:39 < fenn> kanzure: i just watched the douglas lenat google tech talk on cyc a couple days ago
19:40 < kanzure> good?
19:40 < fenn> it made some sense, a good starting point
19:41 < fenn> Cyclify Austin meets on the second Thursday of each month in Austin, TX.
19:41 < kanzure> ah crap
19:41 < fenn> now you have to go
19:41 < kanzure> that was yesterday
19:42 < fenn> no?
19:42 < fenn> tomorrow
19:42 < fenn> they're headquartered in austin btw
19:43 < kanzure> yes
19:43 < kanzure> alright, I'll send an email
19:44 < fenn> it'll probably be way over your head
19:45 < fenn> but you can still promote your own agenda
19:45 < kanzure> http://cyc.com/ seems to be down
19:46 < fenn> www.cyc.com
19:47 < fenn> argh java
19:48 < fenn> hmm maybe i broke it
20:14 < drazak> mmmm b5
20:16 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Artificial_dopamine_receptor
20:18 < drazak> yay slow internet
20:18 < kanzure> Is it my connection ?
20:18 < drazak> nope
20:19 < drazak> I'm grabbing a b5 episode from my dad's, and watching amusic video on youtube
20:19 < drazak> I need to get a cool college chem textbook (IE. one that's on textbooktorrents, and then I can better help you guys)
20:20 < fenn> kanzure: one hand-drawn picture would sum that all up nicely
20:21 < drazak> kanzure: I'd only be worried about using distilled water, and making sure that your glassware is very clean, oh and making sure that you don't fuck up too bad, you could make something very flammable
20:21 < kanzure> fenn: sure
20:22 < kanzure> drazak: I have a server full of them. What would yo uwant?
20:23 < fenn> hah textbooktorrents.. i wonder what the universitie think about that
20:23 < drazak> kanzure: ah, someone mentioned it the other day in ##chemistry
20:24 < fenn> no knowledge for you! bad student!
20:24 < kanzure> drazak: yes, that was me
20:24 < drazak> kanzure: it'd be nice to have that one :P
20:24 < kanzure> drazak: I'll give you a few indices of my files, if you set me up an FTP server to drop files on
20:24 < kanzure> I'd give you a login, but I happen to have my whole hard drive backed up on the file server
20:25 < kanzure> (and it's a custom firmware OS that sucks, so there's no real permissions like that)
20:25 < drazak> kanzure: I don't do ftp, you'kk have to use scp or sftp
20:25 < kanzure> that's fine
20:25 < kanzure> lemme get you your indices
20:26  * drazak finds a window on the appropriate machine
20:26 < drazak> I thinkm I'm going to have to make a pub/priv keypair for this laptop
20:28 < kanzure> drazak: There are a few subdirs. Take your pick: analytical chem, biochem, ChE, current protocols in food analysis, visual encyclopedia of chem-eng, inorganic chem, methods, mineralogy, nuclear chem, organic chem, organometallic chem, other, photochem, supramolecular chem, theoretical chem
20:28 < kanzure> the root dir for chem has general college stuff
20:29 < drazak> lets see here
20:29 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/docs/books/
20:29 < drazak> ana, bio, ChE, inorg, nuc, organ, organomet, theo
20:29 < drazak> that's a good start
20:29 < kanzure> wtf's with this directory output
20:31 < kanzure> I'll fix.
20:33 < fenn> eh why not just setup a small web server on kanzure's end
20:33 < fenn> then you can use nice tools like wget
20:33 < kanzure> fenn: I have all of my files on there, including some rather personal items
20:33 < drazak> fenn: because sftp/scp is encrypted
20:34 < kanzure> fenn: and it's not a permission-based system
20:34 < fenn> they're textbooks, not plans for an interocitor
20:34 < kanzure> well, there's my entire email content on there
20:34 < fenn> and kanzure you can allow/disallow by directory
20:34 < kanzure> fenn: it's on a dedicated "external data storage device"
20:34 < kanzure> with its own HTTP/FTP daemons
20:34 < fenn> or not.. i dont care much
20:34 < fenn> oh like a slu2
20:35 < kanzure> hm?
20:35 < drazak> yeah, that's what it is, probably
20:35 < fenn> a toaster
20:35 < kanzure> so
20:35 < kanzure> haha, I didn't think of something
20:35 < kanzure> I can let you access a base directory
20:35 < kanzure> and it's too stupid to allow /../
20:35 < kanzure> it's probably Windows Mobile Edition or something
20:36 < drazak> no
20:36 < drazak> it's proprietary
20:37 < fenn> sometimes i feel like transhumanism is like.. 'every sperm is sacred'
20:38 < fenn> i have this baby rabbit in my room i found today, he'll probably be dead by morning
20:39 < kanzure> 'every sperm is sacred' ?? it's more about personal modification. With me, I want to process more information, or do it better.
20:43 < fenn> man i wish i had cad software like this http://reprap.org/bin/view/Main/AssemblingDarwinMachinery
20:44 < kanzure> maybe I should go re-install proxypass for apache? but then you'd be going through the mini-data-server and back through the linux server, which will be slow
20:53 < Enki-2> http://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/unreliable.net.html
20:53 < drazak> kanzure: it won't be slow if they're on the same network
20:54 < kanzure> eh, let me see what I can do
20:56 < Enki-2> win joke is WIN.
21:02 < kanzure> Enki-2: 
21:02 < kanzure> On Wednesday 09 April 2008, Eric Yu wrote:
21:02 < kanzure> > It's much easier to fix a few disabilities.  Also, autistic people
21:02 < kanzure> > have more of a disability because people tend to be non-autistic.
21:02 < kanzure> That's like saying linux is a disability.
21:04 < epitron> linux is a disability when you have to work in a windows network
21:05 < epitron> (linux is a bad example beacuse it works very well with windows networks. ... so imagine its' linux from 1995)
21:06 < epitron> kanzure: you might wanna fix your domain.. right now it's pointing at your old AND your new nameserver at the same time
21:06 < epitron> that can't be good
21:06 < epitron> servers might ban you for having inconsistent records
21:07 < epitron> (it could look like a DNS attack)
21:08 < kanzure> ah, okay
21:08 < kanzure> epitron: did windows have networks in 95?
21:08 < epitron> yep
21:08 < epitron> SMB is old
21:08 < epitron> it's from the novell days
21:11 < drazak> from when you ran windows 95 ontop of novell
21:15 < kanzure> epitron: try http://heybryan.org/ please :)
21:15 < kanzure> I don't know if everydns.net is working for it or not
21:37 < kanzure> fenn: okay, I'm attending tomorrow night's Cyc meetup
21:43 < epitron> kanzure: it's working here
21:43 < epitron> oh wait
21:43 < epitron> it was cached
21:43 < epitron> haha
21:43 < epitron> i dunno man
21:43 < epitron> try deleting the zone and recreating it
21:43 < epitron> something probably got fucked up when you were messing with it
21:44 < epitron> maybe you can't delete the A record without it thinking the whole thing has been destroyed, even if you add it again later
22:03 < kanzure> fenn: I think we might have a small server farm willing to host us. 
22:10 < kanzure> So what was the next step that we were going to take? Was I going to go write the XML standards for fileformat IO information?
22:18 < kanzure> http://www.koreamed.org/SearchBasic.php?RID=368379&DT=1&QY=openfree+%5BALL%5D <-- but on the other hand, wtf?