--- Day changed Thu Apr 24 2008 00:00 < kanzure> so that agx-get specifies the exact gui/cli library, but provides functions that the scripts call 00:00 < kanzure> to do #2 I want to do a review of common gui/cli libraries and the input parameters that they need 00:00 < kanzure> this way I don't screw us over 00:09 < kanzure> so once I do that, I'll write up a python interface layer for that purpose and publish the specs etc. 00:09 < kanzure> then, uh, we'll start to write some interpreters for parts of the (skdb package file)'s metadata file. 00:09 < kanzure> we'll also release the first agx-get code 00:09 < kanzure> i think. 00:10 < kanzure> another idea I had was to use yaml to serialize io objects .. but then you start getting into weird territory that might be fun to try out with, I dunno, GNU Hurd or something about the time Duke Nukem Forever comes out ... 00:11 < fenn> you mean use yaml as a communication protocol? 00:11 < kanzure> not so much 00:11 < kanzure> uh, it's a stupid idea, I'm kinda embarrased to explain 00:11 < kanzure> but 00:11 < kanzure> what if we could assume a java vm or something 00:12 < kanzure> and then we could have yaml serialized objects that encode the interfaces themselves for user input and so on 00:12 < kanzure> it's not too implementable. 00:12 < kanzure> I'm going with the other method. 00:13 < kanzure> some good places to review: the HTML form specs - what are all of the types of form elements? You have text, big fields, select, radios, buttons, character input, line input, file input (stdin), ... 00:13 < kanzure> heck, scripted input 00:13 < fenn> wow there's a lot of traffic on hplusroadmap 00:13 < kanzure> are you being sarcastic? 00:13 < fenn> no 00:13 < kanzure> because it's mostly me :) 00:14 < fenn> right 00:15 < kanzure> other gui libraries worth reviewing? 00:15 < kanzure> ncurses, I suppose 00:15 < kanzure> gtk, maybe 00:15 < fenn> w3c is the place to read about html form specs 00:15 < fenn> dunno why you want that though 00:16 < kanzure> http://www.gtk.org/documentation.html 00:16 < kanzure> http://www.cs.utk.edu/~vose/c-stuff/ncurses.html 00:16 < fenn> i like gtk 00:16 < kanzure> doesn't matter if it's HTML or GTK or Java Swing really 00:16 < kanzure> the point is that there is a set of parameters that they all use 00:16 < kanzure> so I want a broad list of them 00:16 < kanzure> http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/interact/forms.html 00:16 < kanzure> http://www.jformdesigner.com/ heh 00:16 < kanzure> http://www.jgoodies.com/ aha 00:17 < fenn> you want a ui abstraction layer 00:17 < kanzure> yes 00:18 < fenn> i dont think it's going to happen any time soon 00:18 < kanzure> no reason to demand that all yaml-interpreters use just GTK or some bullshit like that 00:18 < kanzure> (I happen to like gtk too) 00:18 < kanzure> because remember 00:18 < kanzure> I want cli too 00:18 < fenn> what you can do instead is provide an api, and link various ui's to that 00:18 < kanzure> I think there's a gtk-cli version 00:18 < kanzure> wait, what? 00:18 < kanzure> how is that different 00:19 < kanzure> we'd have to write a binding for GTK to the API, right? 00:19 < kanzure> and then the scripts would use api calls of course 00:19 < fenn> a ui abstraction layer would be to design the ui and then export it to various formats, like desktop application (gtk or wxwindows) and html 00:19 < fenn> i guess 00:19 < fenn> i might be making this all up 00:19 < kanzure> I see 00:19 < fenn> anyway, publishing an API is the standard way to do it 00:19 < kanzure> yep 00:19 < kanzure> so that's what I want to do 00:19 < kanzure> so that we don't have to commit to one gui/cli lib 00:20 < kanzure> this way that's left up to the end user 00:20 < kanzure> but at the same time, it's stupid to restrict it 00:20 < fenn> to restrict what? 00:20 < kanzure> so we can at least look at the current standards across the gui/cli libraries 00:20 < kanzure> restrict parameters that the api accepts 00:20 < kanzure> for example, you don't just say 00:20 < kanzure> 'ask for user input' 00:20 < kanzure> you might say 'getchar' 00:20 < kanzure> or 'get a line' 00:20 < fenn> of course 00:20 < kanzure> and if you are in a GUI mode, it's even more complicated 00:20 < fenn> that doesnt have anything to do with the API though 00:20 < kanzure> sure it does 00:21 < kanzure> getaline() versus getaline(max length = 5) 00:21 < fenn> API is like, a list of functions and the type of variables they accept 00:21 < kanzure> so what if you don't have max length as a pararameter 00:21 < kanzure> so the idea is to make sure we accept common parameters 00:21 < kanzure> where 'common' is defined by the other specs I've been linking to 00:23 < kanzure> does it make sense 00:23 < kanzure> if not, shoot me down now, I have to log off (but not before saving those other specs to the hdd for in school viewing and maybe finally getting some work done) 00:23 < fenn> it just sounds like you're fuzzy on what an API is 00:24 < kanzure> we'll provide a set of functions 00:24 < kanzure> getchar, getline, gettext, getfile, stdin, whatever 00:24 < fenn> those aren't the sort of functions though 00:24 < kanzure> but the method of implementation (gui, cli) will be up to agx-get 00:24 < kanzure> hm 00:24 < kanzure> what functions are you considering? 00:24 < fenn> its more like, updatedb(); check-keys(); parse-file() 00:25 < kanzure> that's agx-get 00:25 < kanzure> sigh 00:25 < kanzure> okay, so it tries to parse the file 00:25 < kanzure> catches the exception 00:25 < kanzure> goes looking for the plugin to fix it, which would provide the class (the yaml is the serialized object that fits that class) 00:25 < fenn> wait, what is "it"? 00:25 < kanzure> it = agx-get 00:25 < kanzure> you're describing agx-get 00:25 < fenn> ~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~what's the gui for? 00:26 < kanzure> not for me, 00:26 < kanzure> I like cli 00:26 < kanzure> but that's my preference 00:26 < fenn> i mean, its an interface to what 00:26 < kanzure> to agx-get 00:26 < kanzure> agx-get will read skdb metadata files 00:26 < kanzure> right? 00:26 < fenn> yeah, and agx-get presents the basic usage functions as its API 00:27 < kanzure> maybe - let me type out what I was thinking first, then I'll consider that 00:27 < kanzure> once agx-get installs a plugin to read the yaml file, the plugin gains control and gets to ask the user questions or whatever (this can be bypassed by parameters of course) 00:27 < fenn> getline is part of the client code, which then gets parsed and turned into function calls to the API 00:27 < kanzure> so it would have a way of saying "well, there's this list here, which one(s) would you like? or all of them?" 00:28 < kanzure> so the plugin would call getChar() or whatever to get the information that the user types in 00:28 < kanzure> hm 00:28 < kanzure> now, in your switch-aroo, 00:28 < fenn> ew 00:29 < kanzure> why would getline "then get[s] parsed and turned into function calls to the API" 00:29 < kanzure> where getline is a part of the client code 00:29 < fenn> that's not very flexible, what if you switch to a radio button instead? then you have to go and change getChar() in every plugin 00:29 < kanzure> and the API is supposed to be the ui stuff 00:29 < kanzure> huh? 00:29 < kanzure> I don't understand that 00:29 < kanzure> the plugins are individually responsible for their interface 00:29 < fenn> no, API is not the UI it's the interface between UI and library code 00:30 < kanzure> how is it that you think that 00:30 < kanzure> erm 00:30 < kanzure> switching to a radio button? 00:30 < kanzure> why would you do that 00:30 < kanzure> ohh 00:30 < kanzure> you mean 00:30 < fenn> because you're writing a GUI 00:30 < kanzure> switching a plugin's representation 00:30 < kanzure> would mean it changes for all of them that rely on that plugin 00:31 < kanzure> for example 00:31 < kanzure> package chair has (conveniently?) a dependency on a plugin to parse chair-type metadata files 00:31 < kanzure> and another package entirely, ed302941 also has that !! yaml statement for the chair-type 00:31 < fenn> i never really expected a plugin to directly ask the user for input (because dpkg always pissed me off when it got stuck halfway through a big install waiting for me to press enter) 00:32 < kanzure> then, changing the plugin's code to ask the user for stuff and so on - well - then it would change it for anybody using either chair *or* ed302941 00:32 < kanzure> fenn: that's fixed with passing parameters to dpkg ... 00:32 < fenn> not if you dont know you have to pass any parameters 00:32 < kanzure> unless it's a genuine 'uh oh and halt' dpkg error 00:32 < fenn> its stuff like 'this version of libpam does blahdyblah and is a possible security risk if you are running foobar v123' and i generally have no idea what they're talking about 00:33 < kanzure> I still think you are wrong --> "that's not very flexible, what if you switch to a radio button instead? then you have to go and change getChar() in every plugin" 00:33 < kanzure> getChar() in every plugin? 00:33 < fenn> the point is getChar shouldnt be in the plugin at all 00:33 < kanzure> that's not true at all 00:33 < kanzure> right 00:33 < kanzure> so 00:33 < kanzure> let's say it's gtkGetChar() 00:33 < kanzure> some object for a gui or something 00:33 < kanzure> that's not a plugin 00:33 < fenn> neither should that 00:34 < kanzure> that's in the interface to the API layer or whatever 00:34 < kanzure> and then the plugins call to the APIs 00:34 < fenn> in the gtk GUI? 00:34 < kanzure> gtkGetChar() would call an object in the GTK gui 00:34 < kanzure> or whatever 00:34 < kanzure> I don't know how that works 00:34 < kanzure> gtk bindings for the ui-abstraction-layer 00:34 < kanzure> so ui.getChar() would then be mapped to gtkGetChar() 00:35 < kanzure> then the python plugins that would do user io or just output or whatever would call ui.someFunction() 00:35 < kanzure> where someFunction is of course dependent on what the user's setup is 00:35 < kanzure> so gtk, or cli, or whatever 00:35 < fenn> i want to believe that your ui.someFunction is what i'm calling an API 00:36 < fenn> see, getChar isn't appropriate to a radiobutton, but it performs the same function on a ncurses interface 00:36 < kanzure> wait, what? 00:37 < fenn> say you're at an interactive session 00:37 < kanzure> getChar would do get-character in ncurses just the same as get-character from a prompt, but the trick is that ncurses gets to choose a weird way to implement it 00:37 < kanzure> okay 00:37 < fenn> would you like: a, b, or c? 00:37 < kanzure> and this could be either graphical or just text-based 00:37 < kanzure> right? 00:37 < kanzure> the script is fundamentally asking me for those options, but my API knows that I want in gui form for example 00:37 < kanzure> because that's what I've configured/told it to do 00:37 < fenn> in the text-based version you're type 'a' but in the gui version you'd click the box next to a 00:37 < kanzure> (where I am the user) 00:37 < kanzure> well 00:38 < kanzure> I'm not so sure about that, that's more of a question for configuration I think, right? 00:38 < kanzure> I mean, that might be a popular configuration for end-users 00:38 < kanzure> but personally, intuitively, I'd think that even in cli you should still be able to do a key press 00:38 < kanzure> but I dunno. 00:38 < kanzure> oops 00:38 < kanzure> *even in gui 00:38 < kanzure> I think that is something reasonably configurable, right? 00:38 < fenn> yeah, sure, most gui options have key shortcuts 00:39 < kanzure> but I mean whether or not to make it a radio button 00:39 < kanzure> whether or not to make it a radio button should be up to *something* on the end-user end 00:39 < fenn> instead of what, a box you type in? gimme a break 00:39 < kanzure> not the python script itself 00:39 < kanzure> dunno 00:39 < kanzure> whatever 00:40 < kanzure> I don't care about it, that's up to the end-user 00:40 < kanzure> or the gui/cli library 00:40 < kanzure> okay, so I think that part sounds solid 00:40 < fenn> hrmm 00:40 < fenn> what do you think would be the API for agx-get? 00:41 < kanzure> I mentioned that I'd like to do a review of html form specs, gtk, and ncurses to see common parameters so that I don't screw us over with a bad API-layer/thingy first off. 00:41 < kanzure> it would be in python obviously 00:41 -!- Aulere [n=dragon_d@131.229.176.252] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:41 < kanzure> and I'm hoping there's python-gtk bindings or python-ncurses bindings out there to make things easier to test out and debug or show mockups etc 00:42 < fenn> sure 00:43 < kanzure> I'll dump a few notes on to the wiki re: this stuff, then download some docs/specs, and get to work tomorrow 00:43 < fenn> i will sit on my bum and feel sorry for myself 00:44 < kanzure> http://library.gnome.org/devel/references which reference manual do I want? 00:44 < kanzure> why's that? 00:44 < fenn> no idea 00:44 < kanzure> http://library.gnome.org/devel/gtk/2.6/ ? 00:44 < fenn> use pygtk.org 00:45 < kanzure> convenient 00:45 < kanzure> the python guys always seem to keep simple websites 00:45 < kanzure> I suspect this is just due to the python syntax style 00:45 < fenn> the python code is much easier to read than c with funky type declarations everywhere 00:46 < kanzure> my typed text kinda have those funky type declarations everywhere like in c :( 00:46 < kanzure> *has those funky 00:46 < kanzure> hm, glade 00:46 < kanzure> I remember trying to use glade once or twice 00:46 < fenn> i have mixed feelings about glade 00:47 < fenn> i think it just makes things more complicated in the end 00:47 < fenn> auto-generated code is a big nono in my book 00:47 < kanzure> I remember being it barely usable 00:48 < kanzure> wait, what about gcc and its automated code generators? 00:48 < kanzure> and compiler compilers in general? 00:48 < fenn> but even with libglade, then you have to sort through a big mess of buttons and windows to figure out where to put your code 00:48 < fenn> kanzure: as long as i dont have to see it 00:48 < kanzure> more than fair :) 00:48 < fenn> as long as someone cant possibly mistake it for source code 00:49 < fenn> the core communication API of emc was written with a code generator.. been suffering ever since 00:49 < fenn> you cant just rip it out 00:49 < fenn> oh well 00:50 < fenn> modularity, abstraction layers.. the more the merrier 00:52 < kanzure> hm, a code generator to communicate with what? 00:52 < kanzure> with the machines? 00:52 < kanzure> oh, right 00:52 < kanzure> g-code is like a language 00:53 < kanzure> so I maybe see what they were thinking? 00:53 < fenn> no, nothing to do with g-code 00:53 < kanzure> wtf? 00:54 < fenn> stuff like, turnSpindleOn(), popupStupidErrorMessage() 00:54 < fenn> thousands and thousands of these, all with their own c++ types 00:54 < kanzure> so was a code generator a lazy man's answer to a problem ? 00:54 < kanzure> eek 00:55 < fenn> it was because they couldnt figure out a way to send messages between machines with different architectures (besides c++ types) 00:55 < fenn> surely there's a better way (and it wouldnt even have been an issue with an interpreted language) 00:55 < fenn> plain RPC is what I would have done 00:55 < fenn> oh well 00:56 < fenn> see, back in the day, computers werent fast enough to handle controlling the table and the i/o at the same time (?) so they split up the different parts of the system between computers 00:57 < fenn> but it was a govt project so of course they had to support a bunch of incompatible computer types 00:57 < fenn> now, it's been scaled back to just x86 machines running rtai-linux, but the inter-process messaging layer is the same 00:58 < kanzure> hey, uh, how hard would it be to convert between git, svn, cvs, monotone, etc.? 00:59 < fenn> not too hard, but then you have to interconvert all the time 00:59 < fenn> (i've never done it) 00:59 < fenn> you dont want to use cvs 01:00 < kanzure> well 01:00 < kanzure> my main woe at this time is that 01:00 < kanzure> apt-get is supposedly our cover-story, I mean, what we use as an example 01:00 < kanzure> "See how well it works?" or at least the concept 01:00 < fenn> heh 01:00 < kanzure> and if they can't apt-get install git-core 01:00 < kanzure> then WTF are they going to be thinking? 01:00 < kanzure> but otherwise git looks like an awesome choice 01:00 < fenn> um.. by the time we have anything useful released, nobody will be using debian-etch 01:00 < kanzure> I guess we can say "go get unstable" 01:00 < kanzure> eh 01:01 < fenn> sorry 01:01 < kanzure> it took me four years to get around to upgrading my last knoppix box 01:01 < kanzure> it was this terribly transformed knoppix->debian->ubuntu?->debian box from random sources.list additions/deletions 01:01 < kanzure> (newbish ;)) 01:02 < fenn> i think git-core is supposed to work on etch, but somehow you borked it by installing GNU git 01:04 < fenn> so, apt-get is not perfect, but you have to admit it works pretty well most of the time 01:06 < fenn> git can be a deb-dependency of our package if we use it, but i cant realistically see most end-users learning how to use a command-line version control system 01:06 < fenn> packages can be downloaded a zillion other ways 01:06 < kanzure> sure 01:06 < kanzure> agx-get would probably automatically clone some git repos ;) 01:06 < kanzure> that's what I'm thinking. 01:07 < kanzure> but on the other hand, I'm not so sure 01:07 < kanzure> that'd be more like a parameter feature or something 01:07 < kanzure> since the user doesn't necessarily want to download all 10 MB associated with a project, just certain data files or just the human readable stuff at the moment 01:07 < kanzure> whatever. 01:08 < fenn> i may be confusing this project with my theoretical cad software which uses a git repo to save files 01:08 < fenn> based loosely on this idea: http://www.bruno.postle.net/neatstuff/draft/ 01:09 < fenn> i like files :) 01:10 < kanzure> fenn: I don't see how the two are different. CAD software is the same thing methinks. But ultimately you still need to have that 'social knowledge' somehow 01:10 < kanzure> or something 01:10 < kanzure> too tired 01:10 < kanzure> don't make much fo that 01:11 < kanzure> *of that 01:13 < fenn> git-rebase in a parametric cad .. mmmmm 01:16 < kanzure> guys in #python suggesting a "cli markup language that can then be converted to glade" 01:16 < kanzure> eek, glade references. 01:16 < kanzure> (2008-04-24 00:20:23) xif: you just need something that says , and then translate to the same thing in Gnome. 01:17 < fenn> no, workflow is different in a command line program 01:18 < kanzure> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=630693&page=8 cli markup language 01:18 < kanzure> oh 01:18 < kanzure> http://linux.pte.hu/~pipas/CUI/index.html 01:19 < kanzure> composite ui 01:20 < fenn> oh wow, its like a terminal except it's not! 01:20 < kanzure> hrm 01:20 < kanzure> terrible idea 01:21 < fenn> i think switching from cli to gui means a total rewrite and re-think is in order 01:21 < kanzure> (2008-04-24 00:24:51) xif: kanzure: what I'd probably do, is define a small set of widgets that I actually need, then write an adapter that reliably represents each widget in a CLI markup and glade. 01:21 < kanzure> hm 01:21 < kanzure> but then how does debian do it 01:21 < kanzure> they have graphical frontends 01:21 < kanzure> ooh 01:21 < fenn> the dialog thingy? blue background and red buttons 01:22 < kanzure> they put them in "shut the fuck up" mode 01:22 < kanzure> nope 01:22 < kanzure> that's not it 01:22 < kanzure> they have gtk versions 01:22 < kanzure> of aptitude and so on 01:22 < kanzure> but I think they are in STFU mode 01:22 < kanzure> maybe. 01:22 < fenn> synaptic? 01:22 < kanzure> yes 01:22 < fenn> its a frontend to apt, but it uses apt's API 01:23 < fenn> the stuff defined in libapt or whatever its called 01:23 < kanzure> so 01:23 < kanzure> in some cases the configuration scripts require user input 01:23 < kanzure> does this translate up to gtk window popups ? 01:23 < kanzure> and if so, how? are they doing the api layer thing that I have been suggesting? 01:24 < fenn> i dont know 01:24 < fenn> i cant think of any cases where we would need user input halfway through an operation 01:25 < fenn> ideally they'd just press 'go' and it would spit out the result 01:26 < fenn> dem compyootah's better not gimme any back-talk 01:27 < kanzure> what if they didn't know about the parameters for that project 01:27 < kanzure> they need to be told or something 01:28 < kanzure> like "Hello, this is your first time using this data type, so here's a quick walkthrough" or something? (yuck?) 01:28 < fenn> hmm that ubuntu thread. "training wheels for the CLI" sounds like a good idea 01:28 < kanzure> yeah, hold on 01:28 < kanzure> screw gui 01:28 < kanzure> why do I care this much 01:29 < kanzure> http://surfraw.alioth.debian.org/ Surfraw - Shell Users' Revolutionary Front Rage Against the Web 01:30 < kanzure> Surfraw abstracts the browser away from input. Doing so lets it get on with what it's good at. Browsing. Interpretation of linguistic forms is handed back to the shell, which is what it, and human beings are good at. Combined with netscape-remote or incremental text browsers, such as lynx, links or w3m, along with screen a Surfraw liberateur is capable of navigating speeds that leave GUI tainted idolaters agape with fear and wonde 01:30 < fenn> yeah its a great vision but the software is useless' 01:31 < fenn> at least google provides a decent set of "command-line" style search queries (instead of making you click boxes in some advanced search page) 01:32 < kanzure> hurray for box clicking 01:32 < kanzure> :( 01:32 < kanzure> wasted hours 01:32 < kanzure> probably ten million man hours by now 01:32 < fenn> but 99% of the website designers out there could care less 01:32 < kanzure> it's not that they don't care, I think they just don't understand 01:32 < fenn> ah, no, its that they dont care, and it wasnt part of the assignment 01:33 < fenn> the person giving the assignment doesnt understand 01:33 -!- Aulere [n=dragon_d@131.229.176.252] has joined #hplusroadmap 01:33 < fenn> if you're writing dynamic web code you are probably using a command line at multiple points in the process 01:34 < kanzure> back when I was doing 1k~ of dynamic web code a night, the only command line I knew about was MSDOS 01:34 < kanzure> and it was *useless* 01:34 < kanzure> although I guess I could have used EDIT and then FTP 01:34 < kanzure> but really. 01:35 < fenn> hrm. i suppose it could be possible that one could write code without using a command line... (are my GNU horns showing?) 01:36 < kanzure> not sure 01:37 < kanzure> back in my day, we programmed by smoke signals 01:37 < fenn> fwiw i learned to program on macintosh quickbasic and then ms-somethingorother C++ IDE 01:37 < kanzure> none of these damned 'electrons' and 'fields force'. 01:37 < kanzure> my intro to programming was, sadly, html + js 01:37 < kanzure> but I was young enough for it to not scar me 01:38 < fenn> well, javascript is sorta useful 01:38 < kanzure> sure 01:38 < kanzure> but not when you think anybody who "knows" HTML to be a demigod 01:38 < fenn> in 1996 it was pretty much a requirement for participating on the (http) web 01:39 < kanzure> 'night 01:39 -!- kanzure [n=bryan@cpe-70-113-54-112.austin.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:46 -!- AulereV [n=dragon_d@131.229.176.252] has joined #hplusroadmap 03:55 -!- Aulere [n=dragon_d@131.229.176.252] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:57 -!- marainein [n=marainei@220-253-110-236.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #hplusroadmap 07:24 -!- kanzure [n=bryan@cpe-70-113-54-112.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 07:27 -!- marainein [n=marainei@220-253-110-236.VIC.netspace.net.au] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:32 -!- marainein [n=marainei@220-253-110-236.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #hplusroadmap 07:40 -!- AulereV [n=dragon_d@131.229.176.252] has quit [] 08:05 -!- kanzure [n=bryan@cpe-70-113-54-112.austin.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:41 -!- marainein [n=marainei@220-253-110-236.VIC.netspace.net.au] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 10:31 -!- marainein [n=marainei@220-253-110-236.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #hplusroadmap 12:20 -!- marainein [n=marainei@220-253-110-236.VIC.netspace.net.au] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:48 -!- kanzure [n=bryan@cpe-70-113-54-112.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 17:49 -!- marainein [n=marainei@220-253-113-232.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #hplusroadmap 17:49 < kanzure> conclusion: 17:49 < kanzure> fenn: no reason for these scripts to need input 17:49 < kanzure> I was wrong. 17:49 < kanzure> So I was talking with Greg Egan this morning. 18:56 -!- Splicer [n=p@h35n1c1o261.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 18:58 < kanzure> Hey Splicer. 19:02 < Splicer> hello 19:11 < Splicer> I was listening to a berkley genetics podcast earlier today, about the Recombinant DNA Debate... 19:12 < kanzure> Debate?? 19:12 < Splicer> it started among scientists, some of which were very notable.. spread to the public.. 19:12 < kanzure> what debate. 19:12 < kanzure> " Ready are you? What know you of ready? For eight hundred years have I trained Jedi. My own counsel will I keep on who is to be trained. A Jedi must have the deepest commitment, the most serious mind. 19:12 < kanzure> This one a long time have I watched. All his life has he looked away... to the future, to the horizon. Never his mind on where he was. Hmm? What he was doing. Hmph. Adventure. Heh. Excitement. Heh. A Jedi craves not these things. You are reckless. " 19:13 < Splicer> heh 19:14 < Splicer> The recombinant DNA debate, there is a thread about it on DIYbio.. sonething about berkley laws, the debate started there. 19:14 < Splicer> not berkley... the other place 19:15 < Splicer> 'Cambridge DNA laws' is the name of the thread 19:15 < kanzure> There were only three or four emails on the diybio mailing list abotu that. 19:15 < Splicer> yes 19:15 < kanzure> So how is it a debate. 19:16 < kanzure> There's nothing *to* debate. We *know* how biology does it and we know it occurs, randomly, billions of times each day, perhaps billions of times each moment. 19:16 < Splicer> mmm... the berkley professor describes it better than I can: 19:16 < kanzure> if you can link me to the transcripts to the genetics podcast, that'd be great 19:17 < Splicer> don´t have transcrips, sorry: http://webcast.berkeley.edu/media/f2007/mcb140/mcb140_2007-09-24.mp3 19:17 < kanzure> wtf 19:17 < Splicer> ? 19:18 < Splicer> hehe.. no trascript sorry 19:18 < Splicer> It starts 33.10 in 19:20 < Splicer> It ends with the mayor of Cambridge banning the research and the mayor of berkley banning it for 2 years and setting up an advisory board consisting of firemen and nurses. 19:23 < kanzure> Hm. 19:23 < kanzure> Listening. 19:24 < kanzure> Erwin Chargaff 19:24 < Splicer> yup.. he got carried away.. the good stuff is to come 19:24 < kanzure> "... whether we have the right to put a fearful load on the future people. You can recall a bomb, you can recall a war; you can't recall a new organism." 19:24 < kanzure> Ah, so it's just the grey goo argument. 19:25 < Splicer> and he wasn´t just anyone 19:25 < marainein> bah...just try recalling a war 19:26 < kanzure> marainein: Your men. 19:27 < marainein> I meant in practical terms 19:27 < kanzure> "And so they banned recombinant DNA research." Hahah. Try banning natural biology. Yes, that's a great idea. Sure. Just try. 19:27 < kanzure> "We will create the perfect race, citing Adolf Hitler" - yawn, eugenitical approach to transhumanism 19:27 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/transhumanism_def.html 19:28 < marainein> need to ban sex too...don't forget about homologous recombination during meiosis 19:28 * Splicer sings "We will not be cloooooned" 19:28 < kanzure> marainein: A few days ago fenn was mentioning how Texas banned 'sex toys' up til, what was it, 2007? 19:28 * kanzure lives in Texas and didn't know :-( 19:29 < kanzure> "You don't need to understand things to argue about them." erm... 19:29 < marainein> well, technically that's true 19:30 < kanzure> if you want to be grounded. 19:30 < Splicer> public debate follow the laws of memetics not reason 19:30 < kanzure> doesn't matter, they are wrong 19:31 < Splicer> of course, and technology beats politics, but they can make things miserable for a while 19:32 < Splicer> i like his conclusion, that noone cares about that particular debate now... every student is doing it first thing 19:48 -!- marainein [n=marainei@220-253-113-232.VIC.netspace.net.au] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 19:55 < Splicer> hmm.. the biology channel seems quiet 19:56 < Splicer> time to sleep 19:56 < Splicer> cu 19:56 -!- Splicer [n=p@h35n1c1o261.bredband.skanova.com] has left #hplusroadmap [] 20:26 -!- kanzure [n=bryan@cpe-70-113-54-112.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:48 -!- Aulere [n=dragon_d@131.229.176.252] has joined #hplusroadmap 21:00 -!- kanzure [n=bryan@cpe-70-113-54-112.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 21:50 < kanzure> http://www.davidzindell.com/id16.html 21:53 < Aulere> is he a favorite author of yours? 21:53 < Aulere> looks interesting 22:01 < kanzure> Yes, I have a copy of his book on http://heybryan.org/docs/ 22:29 < kanzure> I am also wikifying a copy of the book. 22:30 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Neverness/1 22:40 < Aulere> nice 22:41 < Aulere> he has a certain poetry to his prose 22:42 < kanzure> Sure. 22:44 < kanzure> Alright fenn, so I realized that all of that configuration talk was just bullshit. The only thing we have to do is download the plugins that provide the classes. These classes can be configured, yes, but ultimately it's only two ways. (1) Through the parameters. (2) Default config as provided by the package. 22:45 < kanzure> Here's why. Let's say that you type in agx-get install --recursive chair to get anything and everything related to a chair 22:46 < kanzure> It will pick up the yaml plugin for the chair datatype. So it might need to do some configuration, right? Not really. What's there to configure? All that you really care about is installing it, so it'll just do default stuff for you. If you don't give it anything *specific* to 'chair'-type then it will not really do much. 22:46 < kanzure> so you'd have to wait 22:46 < kanzure> if you're going to be waiting there, you might as well quit the program and just type in some parameters 22:46 < kanzure> this way, even better, you can *repeat* the configuration steps and show other people 22:46 < kanzure> but it's wrong to call it configuration 22:46 < kanzure> this is more like: agx-get install chair 22:47 < kanzure> > Hello, you're downloading a chair. Did you know you can specify --specific to get a specific model? If you don't know the ID, it's okay, just run chairFinder to help you out. 22:47 < kanzure> that sort of thing 22:58 < kanzure> http://www.cosmographica.com/gallery/index_main.html 23:01 -!- marainein [n=marainei@220-253-10-191.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #hplusroadmap 23:49 < fenn> marainein: is your nick based on the iain banks language? 23:49 [Users #hplusroadmap] 23:49 [ Aulere] [ drazak] [ fenn] [ kanzure] [ krebs_] [ marainein] 23:49 -!- Irssi: #hplusroadmap: Total of 6 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 6 normal] 23:50 < marainein> no...what makes you ask? 23:51 < fenn> because then i'd know you'd read some banks novels :) 23:51 * marainein has read some of banks's books, but doesn't recognise the reference 23:51 < fenn> marain is the language of Culture 23:51 < marainein> ah...didn't know that 23:51 < marainein> although I've read some culture books 23:53 < fenn> did anyone watch the 1968 engelbart demo? 23:54 < fenn> i've been geeking out on engelbart since i did. he's all about bootstrapping 23:56 < fenn> its really amazing all the different things they had to invent, and how spot-on they got the whole system and interface the very first time 23:56 < fenn> like, there was no such thing as a monitor that showed words electronically 23:59 < kanzure> not yet 23:59 < kanzure> ah