--- Day changed Sat May 10 2008
00:14 < kanzure> Hi marainein. 
00:15 < marainein> hi kanzure
00:15 < marainein> how are you?
00:16 < kanzure> Doing well. Give me five minutes and I'll post up an email-essay I just wrote.
00:17 < marainein> ok
00:40 < kanzure> marainein, fenn, ybit - http://heybryan.org/2008-05-09.html
00:40 < kanzure> an email I just sent to a guy doing a presentation on (space-oriented) manufacturing automation at IDSC2008
00:41 < kanzure> and I have somebody from Kurzweil's team chatting to me over here, she has Mark Hopkins on the phoneline. http://www.nss.org/about/bios/hopkins.html
00:41  * marainein reads
00:41 < ybit> your talking right now? *is jealous*
00:41 < ybit> everyone around here is sleeping and panics over the slightest noise
00:42 < ybit> your/you're*
00:45 < kanzure> I'm not talking. Typing.
00:57 < ybit> /query not sure if you edit your stuff after posting, but... "
00:57 < ybit> "he Semantic Web is an evolving extension of the World Wide Web in which
00:57 < ybit> the semantics of information and services on the web is defined, making 
00:57 < ybit> ...
00:57 < ybit> my bad
00:57 < ybit> meant to send that to you kanzure
00:57 < kanzure> Hm.
00:58 < kanzure> yeah, I sent the email already, so didn't bother. It's fixed now.
00:58 < kanzure> ybit.
00:58 < ybit> i'm slowly working out the kinks getting used to konversation on this pc
00:58  * ybit is used to irssi
01:00 < ybit> reading what you sent.. but.. i've noticed a lot of authors not mentioning open source, collaborative efforts in their ideas of the future. namely, ray kurzweil and virnor vinge
01:01 < ybit> and there isn't much mention of the molecular assemblar
01:01 < kanzure> yes. good eye. I have about five email-essays on that subject from a recent friend I acquired, if you're interested. It basically says just that, but with more words.
01:01 < kanzure> well, molecular assemblers are possibly more intense than a macroscale self-replicating machine
01:01 < kanzure> but I'm okay with either one
01:01 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/transhumanism_def.html
01:01 < kanzure> I've been struggling with the Wikipedia article for a few months now. It's retarded.
01:01 < kanzure> They have criticisms up about "the socioeconomic divide" -- yet self-replicators solve this.
01:02 < kanzure> So they're just bullshitting / contaminating the good tech-engineers/scientists behind these ideas.
01:02 < ybit> i've a friend working on a macroscale self-replicating machine right now
01:02 < ybit> he shoudl have version 1 out in a year
01:02 < kanzure> RepRap?
01:02 < ybit> nope
01:02 < kanzure> CBA?
01:02 < ybit> reprap isn't very precise
01:03 < kanzure> yes, we've talked about that endlessly in here :)
01:03 < kanzure> ybit: is it at the Media Lab?
01:03 < ybit> is that center for bits and atoms?...
01:03 < kanzure> btw, refresh the 2008-05-09.html file for a link at the bottom to an email I just got from somebody suggesting to not go to ISDC2008
01:03 < kanzure> yes
01:03 < kanzure> I had David Dalrymple coming in here for a while, but he left it seems
01:04 < kanzure> (David works for Neil @ CBA)
01:04 < kanzure> (note how I cite Neil in 2008-05-09.html - this is not an accident)
01:04 < ybit> tbh, the details are over my head, but he and his friends claim that they will be able to create electron microscopes and other precise measuring tools with it
01:04 < kanzure> yep
01:04 < kanzure> there are plans on my site for a <$100 STM.
01:05 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/graphene.html also is another route towards self-replicators, the piezoelectric effect + field effect on easily-editable graphene sheet molecules.
01:05 < ybit> i've a feeling i'll be stuck doing the website for the machine 
01:05 < kanzure> ybit: you need to introduce me to this friend of yours
01:05 < kanzure> the broader project in here is a 'manufacturing database'
01:05 < kanzure> call it SKDB
01:05 < ybit> ah, piezo motors, i believe they are working on that right now
01:05 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Skdb
01:05 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Getting_up_to_speed
01:06 < kanzure> it's like debian's apt except for manufacturing processes
01:06 < ybit> haha, getting up to speed isn't fun :P
01:06 < kanzure> no kidding :(
01:06 < kanzure> geared towards a set of fabricational processes that will do self-replication eventually
01:06 < ybit> i've had to delay a few projects this week just reading all the info on your site :P
01:06 < kanzure> **but** if we can't do that, and it's a blackswan, then we can at least do fabrication in the first place - hurray
01:06 < kanzure> ybit: :)
01:06 < kanzure> ybit: if you are able to read through that much content then you definitely belong in here
01:07 < kanzure> fenn is in here for a good reason ;)
01:07 < ybit> or deserve a life ;)
01:07 < kanzure> http://fennetic.net/ is him
01:07 < ybit> my doctor prescribed the wrong drugs so i'm having to order the good stuff offline :|
01:07 < ybit> online*
01:09 < ybit> anyone tried inderal yet?
01:09 < ybit> this will be my first time to try adrafinil, inderal, and oxiracetam
01:09 < kanzure> the *acetams are good, I've heard
01:12 < kanzure> ybit: I think the most important page on heybryan.org might be http://heybryan.org/exp.html - which attempts to be a broad overview of WTF I am talking about; you'll get it if you are a programmer
01:16 < kanzure> ybit: so you're into synbio too?
01:16 < kanzure> or is this only after learning of biohack.sf.net and my other copious caches of information?
01:18 < ybit> i came across you on fbook after getting into synbio
01:18 < ybit> sorry for the delay here.. family issues
01:19 < ybit> i live in a house where studying math, not believing in a religion and using the computer instead of wasting time on a computer is considered psychotic
01:19 < kanzure> how old?
01:20 < ybit> heh, now that i'm embarrased to say
01:20 < ybit> i'm in college
01:20 < ybit> junior
01:20 < ybit> but i've yet to make the move out of the hosue
01:21 < kanzure> yes, I can relate; sort of. Except they all think I am totally wasting my time on the computer ;-)
01:33 < kanzure> So wgheath found me again.
01:33 < kanzure> He doesn't seem to 'get it'.
01:41 < ybit> sadly, i have these family matters to take care of. nice email kanzure, plenty of information to resarch
01:41 < kanzure> ybit: we'll talk later
01:41 < kanzure> where are you?
01:41 < ybit> northern alabama, attending www.una.edu
01:41 < ybit> a local college
03:15 -!- kanzure [n=bryan@cpe-70-113-54-112.austin.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."]
05:51 -!- marainein [n=marainei@220.253.192.32] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
11:51 -!- kanzure [n=bryan@cpe-70-113-54-112.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap
12:03 < fenn> wah
12:03 < fenn> email is impossible
12:03  * fenn wants "semantic mail"
12:06 < kanzure> fenn: what's up ?
12:08 < fenn> writing you an email
12:08 < fenn> just found out my grandpa died yesterday
12:11 < fenn> mostly i feel annoyed that i'm supposed to feel something, because i don't
12:17 < kanzure> annoyed at yourself or at others
12:17 < kanzure> fenn.
12:17 < kanzure> ^ just forgot to add the 'flash attack' token
12:17 < kanzure> I try to maintain a policy of always including a name if there's some multi-minute gap
12:17 < fenn> oh
12:18 < fenn> it doesnt do anything, just makes your name yellow
12:18 < kanzure> I have it setup to visually notify me, so it's an interrupt system
12:19 < fenn> bleh ok email sent but it's unfinished, so wtf am i trying to say
12:19 < fenn> fenn teh hypocrite
12:20 < kanzure> oh, it's not about the grandfather
12:20 < fenn> right, i prefer irc because it's not interruptive
12:20 < fenn> no, i was looking up your email address and saw mail from my mom
12:20 < kanzure> hah
12:20 < fenn> so that's distracting :)
12:21 < kanzure> hm
12:21 < kanzure> what would you prefer, email response or just talk about it
12:21 < kanzure> I see you point out that I didn't actually integrate a lot of the content together
12:21 < fenn> just read it and respond if you like
12:21 < kanzure> I was trying to tone down my babbling about those subsubjects 
12:22 < fenn> i know you cover a lot of ground and its hard to travel fast and communicate well at the same time
12:23 < fenn> but people are going to get overwhelmed if you only send out 'something that looked like it was thrown together by a gang of retarded paraliterates'
12:23 < kanzure> I see.
12:23 < kanzure> I don't know what an alternative would look like.
12:23 < kanzure> I can definitely crank out the babbling paragraphs, but people aren't necessarily going to want to read a 15 line paragraph
12:24 < kanzure> So why not just work off of the sources directly, showing the puzzle pieces, and then moving towards the bigger 'jigsaw puzzle' ? 
12:26 < kanzure> grounding & humans -- you, surely, have seen many people that seem to not understand that they don't really have a basis in reality, only their own small nook in society supported by massive industrialization and large communities, so in a sense yes they are 'grounded' but don't they live on a pretty abstract level?
12:26 < fenn> that describes every person i know
12:27 < kanzure> me?
12:27 < fenn> yep
12:27 < kanzure> perhaps, thus the 'human condition' ;-)
12:27 < fenn> so, no, i dont agree that being dependent on civilization means you aren't grounded in reality
12:28 < fenn> if you think money is something you can eat, then you arent grounded
12:28 < kanzure> I don't agree either. I don't think that's what I was trying to say, but it is what I said. Hm.
12:28 < kanzure> I think the comparison that I was trying to make is this:
12:29 < kanzure> in ai research, suppose you have this ai on a computer that is pure genius -- it's all symbol manipulation within the virtual memory and so on
12:29 < kanzure> and thus there's no 'grounding' to reality, even though it's certainly running on the microprocessor
12:29 < kanzure> same with people; you can have many thoughts - but how many can you find supporting references, links, people, societies for etc. ?
12:29 < kanzure> Maybe that can help explain my massive link collection.
12:30 < fenn> i dont believe you need a citation for every belief or statement
12:30 < fenn> its impossible to figure out what is true or false based on citation anyway
12:30 < fenn> flaw of peer review
12:30 < kanzure> right
12:30 < kanzure> but at the same time, think about all of the people who truly want to 'end world hunger' (crappy example)
12:31 < kanzure> they might want to do it, but they're up there in lala land apparently
12:31 < kanzure> since nobody has gotten anything done on that front
12:31 < fenn> yeah crappy example :)
12:31 < kanzure> okay, so I think you're commenting more on name calling rather than whether or not an isolated thought can get anything done
12:31 < kanzure> in a sense I was name calling I guess
12:32 < fenn> thought only affects reality if it affects subsequent actions
12:32 < fenn> models only represent reality if they're based on experience
12:33 < fenn> but, err.. are we still talking about that jumbled email?
12:33  * fenn is confused
12:33 < kanzure> don't know, I'm not in the mode it seems
12:34 < fenn> i'll take this opportunity to go off on a wild tangent
12:34 < fenn> i just read 'a deepness in the sky' in which some cranky humans turn a brain disease into a virus-mediated form of mind control
12:35 < kanzure> neat, that's on my desk to my right
12:35 < fenn> the virus secretes neurotoxin in certain cells, tuned based on fMRI so that the end result is the person becomes an autistic savant (in their chosen field)
12:35 < fenn> its a long book
12:37 < kanzure> I read Lobster a few days ago. And Haldeman's story on uhh, ah, removing the eyes and wiring the optic nerve back into the brain
12:37 < kanzure> as a way to manage your thought processes
12:37 < fenn> anyway, it's an interesting path to intelligence augmentation?
12:37 < kanzure> hm
12:37 < kanzure> neurotoxin is kinda vague
12:37 < fenn> (but how its used in the story is not for intelligence augmentation exactly)
12:37 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/recursion.html mentions that method though
12:37 < kanzure> you know the recent cancer interventions that they are trying?
12:37 < fenn> well, it reminded me of rTMS
12:37 < kanzure> they do coated drugs
12:37 < kanzure> that are released at specific places in the body thanks to targetted lasers
12:37 < kanzure> so it can get down to single-capillary precision 
12:38 < kanzure> don't know how to do that with the brain though. Anything in the line of path would be 'activated'
12:38 < fenn> haldeman's story was kinda weak
12:38 < kanzure> yes
12:38 < kanzure> but I hadn't considered plugging the eyes back around before, so.
12:38 < fenn> meh
12:39 < kanzure> anyway, so back to the augmentation point
12:39 < kanzure> re: rTMS
12:39 < fenn> is rTMS augmentation?
12:39 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/rTMS I need to go read up on Synder's work again
12:39 < kanzure> not really, I dunno
12:39 < kanzure> but http://transcenmentalism.org/ is doing OpenStim, an open source rTMS machine
12:39 < fenn> its sort like 'is a virus alive' kind of question
12:39 < kanzure> you'll see Mark Garfin on that site ... aka superkuh
12:40 < kanzure> but I'm also interested in neurochemicals
12:40 < kanzure> you know how in hospitals they do the realtime chemical monitoring systems so that doctors know how to change drugs on a moment's notice?
12:40 < kanzure> I want that for the brain
12:40 < kanzure> to maintain cognitive state
12:40 < kanzure> so that while programming I can have my system inject me with something to maintain the 'the mode' if it starts to read various variables dropping
12:40 < fenn> hospital stuff like blood sugar, salt levels?
12:41 < kanzure> well, yes, but also the emergency room and intensive care units seem to do more monitoring these days
12:41 < kanzure> EGGs, EKGs, solute levels, the works
12:41 < kanzure> *EEGs
12:41 < kanzure> fenn: there's also something else that I've been meaning to talk with you about re: rTMS.
12:42 < kanzure> I took some physical handwritten notes on Henry Markram's video, so I've dissected it completely now
12:42 < kanzure> in it, he says that MEG and fMRI of the brain is the equivalent of seeing perceptions in the head
12:42 < fenn> you were offline for a while..
12:42 < kanzure> but Wikipedia still (after all these years) tells me fMRI is still doing blood oxygen usage, not the actual dendritic activity
12:43 < kanzure> yes, yes I was. Laptop power adapter problems. So I have about +20 pages of handwritten notes now ... in very, very tiny handwriting.
12:43 < fenn> lol
12:43 < kanzure> I'd like to go over some of the insights I acquired while sitting/writing/thinking, it's actually right on topic with augmentation
12:44 < kanzure> on Orion's Arm, have you come across the toposophic conjecture yet?
12:44 < fenn> no i havent looked at orionsarm for months
12:44 < kanzure> " The Borodin Conjecture (proposed in 275 a.t. by the AI Borodin at the Novokir Habitat) implies that all possible minds fulfilling certain basic intelligence criteria are upwardly limited by a toposophic barrier"
12:44 < kanzure> http://www.orionsarm.com/sophontology/toposophy.html
12:44 < kanzure> "Toposophy deals with the theoretical problems and possibilities of attempts to extend and amplify one's mental potential. "
12:44 < fenn> oh this is the refactoring orprocess 
12:45 < fenn> s/or//
12:45 < fenn> yes i read some of that
12:45 < fenn> MEG is SQUID not fMRI
12:46 < kanzure> SQUID?
12:46 < fenn> its more like a current sensor
12:46 < kanzure> hm
12:46 < kanzure> so, yeah, sort of like the refactoring
12:46 < fenn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SQUID
12:46 -!- Vedestin [n=vircuser@d58-111-90-12.sbr3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #hplusroadmap
12:47 < kanzure> the idea is that we both know that we might be screwed in the end since our brains are going to be more or less inaccessible
12:47 < kanzure> but that we can do some things to help prolong their life, if we wanted that, or augment the intelligence
12:47 < kanzure> but also at the same time - why not just prepare for the next toposophic barrier?
12:47 < kanzure> i.e., we both would want to make brains
12:47 < kanzure> right?
12:47 < fenn> um, why make brains?
12:47 < fenn> bak up, define "brain"
12:48 < kanzure> sorry, I should probably say intelligence implementation or something
12:48 < fenn> i think of "brain" as a squishy grey thing
12:48 < kanzure> okay, a 'next' brain
12:48 < kanzure> the idea is that the brain is fundamentally flawed and that we can use our insights to design a new architecture of sorts
12:48 < fenn> maybe better to define it in terms of functionality
12:49 < Vedestin> is it fundamentally flawed though?
12:49 < kanzure> brb, mom call?
12:49 < kanzure> well, sort of
12:49 < Vedestin> it's a pretty good start for something that happened by accident
12:49 < kanzure> information processing capacity, can't import thoughts easily (apt-get install physics)
12:49 < fenn> Vedestin: it's biological, meaning it has all the same problems as other biological systems
12:49 < kanzure> GA 
12:50 < fenn> lack of reconfigurability, stringent environmental requirements
12:50 < Vedestin> apt-get install physics would be so useful....
12:50 < kanzure> unit-tests of minicolumns to import new insights, a 'perceptual ecology' for the semantic web grounded in perceptions / brains
12:50 < kanzure> argh, mom-phone
12:50 < fenn> a moment of silence
12:51 < Vedestin> hussshhh
12:53 < kanzure> Okay, sorry.
12:54 < fenn> dont be sorry
12:54 < kanzure> Get this - mom goes off to Europe, on a free cruise, and tells me to update her blog for her
12:54 < kanzure> so she's sending me all these emails of her having this fabulous time
12:54 < Vedestin> your mother has a blog
12:54 < kanzure> meanwhile I'm in school all day, wtf?
12:54 < kanzure> Vedestin: http://lindalarry.wordpress.com/
12:54 < kanzure> my mom is a stripper
12:54 < kanzure> Alright. back on topic
12:55 < kanzure> I kind of babbled above, sorry about that
12:55 < kanzure> let me offer some clarification on this line: "unit-tests of minicolumns to import new insights, a 'perceptual ecology' for the semantic web grounded in perceptions / brains"
12:55 < Vedestin> yeah, please
12:55 < fenn> perceptual ecology = paradigm
12:55 < kanzure> not quite
12:56 < kanzure> argh, lost my copy+paste buffer
12:56 < kanzure> the idea of a perceptual ecology is simply the idea of generating new minicolumns in the brain
12:56 < fenn> i wonder if its not the same thing
12:56 < kanzure> Markram's research has found that autists are locking down functionality into the minicolumns
12:56 < fenn> would explain why old people get stuck in their paradigms
12:56 < kanzure> fenn: perhaps on a meta level sure
12:56 < kanzure> yeah
12:56 < fenn> no i mean on a physical level
12:57 < kanzure> so Markram says something about obsessively repeating those acquired functionalities, preserving them and so on
12:57 < kanzure> and he talks about painting perceptions on to dendrites
12:57 < fenn> like, you see a (homo) and it triggers your homophobe minicolumn
12:57 < kanzure> I don't know about the one to one mapping
12:57 < kanzure> I'd like to prove it, or disprove though
12:57 < fenn> ok, i dont know enough about neuro
12:57 < kanzure> soo at the moment the problem with our brains is the inability to do augmentation really
12:57 < kanzure> can't maintain those long recursions and programming sessions
12:58 < kanzure> eventually something is going to distract us, mostly our own brain
12:58 < kanzure> what if we had an architecture where we could import and integrate new functionality as easily as a command?
12:58 < kanzure> I call it a 'perceptual ecology' only because you get to transfer ideas like genes now
12:59 < fenn> horizontal transfer
12:59 < fenn> hmm
12:59 < kanzure> memes are almost the same thing, and I'm impressed that ideas can be transferred to some extent, but we all know it's screwy
12:59 < fenn> (genes aren't usually transferred horizontally except in bacteria)
12:59 < kanzure> and it's nothing about the actual architecture
12:59 < kanzure> (memes aren't, I mean)
13:00 < fenn> actually, communication is built into your brain
13:00 < Vedestin> it is, to a degree
13:00 < kanzure> so perhaps it's a compression mechanism
13:00 < fenn> yes, due to the low bandwidth of talking, dancing
13:00 < Vedestin> ideas have to be reinforced over and over
13:00 < Vedestin> so that only relevant ideas stick
13:00 < kanzure> so that's why I've been more focusing on two topics now: (1) current augmentation for *us* (brain implants, rTMS, maybe brain uploading in the future - that'd be interesting, but don't count on it), (2) the next step - making a brain that can recursively self-improve itself.
13:01 < kanzure> re: reinforcement over and over again, http://supermemo.com/ 
13:01 < kanzure> I used to be a big fan of supermemo, until I killed myself with 25,000 items to review a day
13:01 < fenn> supermemo only works for certain tasks
13:01 < kanzure> too much computational complexity in linearly reviewing stimulation like that
13:02 < fenn> language acquisition, legal and medical (fields with rote memorization, no holistic overview)
13:02 < kanzure> funny, I'd think that medicine should have lots of holistic thought into it
13:02 < kanzure> have to consider the whole organism, the context
13:02 < fenn> that's why they totally suck at healing people
13:02 < Vedestin> they're ok at it
13:02 < fenn> i'd wager 99% of diseases can be cured by diet modification
13:03 < Vedestin> just diet?
13:03 < Vedestin> or diet and environmental
13:03 < fenn> but our agriculture/transportation industries arent arranged properly
13:03 < fenn> Vedestin: the human body is actually very good at removing environmental toxins, if you give it a chance
13:03 < kanzure> I sat down the other day to read through a textbook on neuropsychopharmacology
13:03 < Vedestin> what about arsenic
13:03 < kanzure> within the first page I had an artificial anxiety attack
13:03 < Vedestin> or asbestos
13:03 < kanzure> because I *know* these people are clueless
13:03  * fenn shrugs
13:04 < kanzure> they're not testing through the entire chemical possibility space
13:04 < Vedestin> black lung
13:04 < kanzure> they don't have self-replicating technology to test that many molecules
13:04 < kanzure> and they certainly aren't running multi-billion tissue sample experiments
13:04 < fenn> Vedestin: black lung is a good example of a combination between poor diet and environment
13:04 < kanzure> so I know they are clueless. I know these medical scientists are more or less clueless. but they do get good ideas and insights, of course
13:04 < Vedestin> asbestosis too
13:05 < fenn> kanzure: they are "just" medical scientists, not polymaths (this is the problem)
13:05 < kanzure> self-limiting context :(
13:05 < fenn> do you know any medical students? they just want to make a passing grade
13:06 < kanzure> I hang out on some medical forums from time to time
13:06 < kanzure> these people scare the living shit out of me
13:06 < fenn> the competition is so fierce they cant step back and look at the big picture
13:06 < fenn> they'll get run over
13:06 < fenn> the whole situation is so fucked
13:06 < kanzure> they could do more help by just dropping out of school, and living on the streets with medical equipment in the back of a truck
13:06 < fenn> i got caught in the middle of it when i was in college doing molecular biology
13:06 < fenn> kanzure: but that would be illegal
13:07 < fenn> vigilante doctors :P
13:07  * fenn whines about wanting his own space colony
13:08 < Vedestin> space colonies would be ok
13:08 < fenn> correction: _my_ space colony would be ok :)
13:08 < fenn> one advantage is you can split off half the land and get away from the crazies
13:09 < kanzure> fenn: re: space colonies, http://openvirgle.net/ - but you already know about this
13:09 < kanzure> yep
13:10 < fenn> for some reason i'm not very optimistic about openvirgle
13:10 < fenn> its just another space advocacy group
13:11 < fenn> maybe i'm getting old
13:11 < fenn> 26 :)
13:11 < Vedestin> ooooold
13:12 < Vedestin> 21, i win
13:12 < fenn> nope
13:12 < Vedestin> yes
13:14 < fenn> oh kanzure re opens source space development, this is a good model for how an article with lots of references could look: http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/articles/free_matter_economy
13:15 < ybit> just saw this: "[00:05] <kanzure>: ybit: you need to introduce me to this friend of yours" ...his nick is 'phreedom' on freenode
13:15 < kanzure> No such user.
13:15 < fenn> ugh i keep seeing that nick showing up randomly
13:16 < fenn> people talking about him, not the guy
13:16 < ybit> 'msg nickserv info phreedom' - he was on here 2 days ago - he's been busy lately
13:16 < kanzure> fenn: openvirgle is just SKDB ;)
13:16 < kanzure> I've been able to maneuver around for that to happen
13:16 < ybit> and having bandwidth problems
13:16 < kanzure> so it's just a way to get some interest going
13:16 < kanzure> Hm.
13:17 < fenn> gee it would be nice if we had some kind of backing body with lots of money
13:19 < kanzure> I'm working on that
13:19 < kanzure> how does Peter Thiels sound to you
13:20 < fenn> too angel, not institutional enuf
13:20 < fenn> ideally something we could piggy-back credibility
13:21 < fenn> 'peter thiels' name doesn't mean anything to most people
13:21 < Vedestin> it means nothing to me
13:21 < kanzure> fenn: Peter did the funding for http://singinst.org/
13:21 < fenn> ah i see
13:22 < fenn> elon musk v2.0
13:22 < kanzure> SingInst is way too focused on ai
13:22 < kanzure> you know what? 
13:22 < kanzure> I might as well start my own Sing Inst
13:22 < fenn> meh
13:22 < Vedestin> yeah, do that
13:22 < kanzure> singinst.org is for SIAI - for ai. Why not just a plain one ;)
13:22 < kanzure> anyway
13:22 < fenn> SIAI?
13:23 < kanzure> that's what singinst.org is called
13:23 < kanzure> Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence
13:23 < fenn> oh i see
13:23 < kanzure> whereas I think it should really be more about exponential growth
13:23 < kanzure> did you read my essay on this?
13:23 < fenn> you're saying they shouldbe siai.org, with pointers back to singinst.org which has multiple branches
13:23 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/On_the_design_of_a_singularity
13:23 < kanzure> basically, if you get ai - like Markram has, sort of -
13:23 < kanzure> and it improves itself, how is it going to make new hardware?
13:23 < fenn> uhhhh. not
13:23 < kanzure> it's going to have to learn from the literature and so on, yes? so then ... we're back to SKDB anyway
13:24 < fenn> markram does not have intelligence, no way
13:24 < kanzure> like
13:24 < kanzure> so imagine it's on a supercomputer like his
13:24 < fenn> the guy is smart but he's running simulations of neurons, dont get confused
13:25 < kanzure> he's leading up to whole brain simulation
13:25 < kanzure> that's why he's doing a column, not just a neuron
13:25 < kanzure> (organization of the brain involves columns, circuits, neurons, etc.)
13:25 < kanzure> anyway, I can't see how ai would magically surpass the problem that skdb solves
13:25 < fenn> ok, please dont mix that plan/path up with what we normally call 'AI'
13:26 < kanzure> who is we
13:26 < kanzure> I'm missing the context, you don't like biological-simulated ai?
13:26 < fenn> no
13:27 < fenn> it's something else
13:27 < fenn> simulated intelligence, how's thta for a buzzword
13:27 < kanzure> k
13:27  * fenn grumbles about namespaces
13:28  * ybit doesn't care much for 'apt-get install physics'
13:28 < ybit> i'd much rather have 'emerge physics' :)
13:28 < kanzure> uh oh, a gentoo user :)
13:28 < kanzure> burn him!
13:28 < fenn> emerge emergent-physics
13:28 < kanzure> hehe
13:28 < ybit> :P
13:28 < kanzure> fenn: a loop hole :)
13:29 < kanzure> ybit: http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Skdb for skdb.
13:29 < fenn> a bifurcation
13:29 < ybit> kanzure: you read my mind
13:30 < fenn> a twist, in the fabric of conversation, where time becomes a loop, where time becomes a loop
13:31 < kanzure> fenn: this kind of sucks though
13:31 < kanzure> there's only one really hard problem remaining
13:31 < kanzure> that of the matter compiler, and then everything else is just standardization and getting the word out so that people can start to do it
13:31 < kanzure> oh, and I guess acquiring a physical setup 
13:31 < kanzure> that would be fun. guess that's where the funding would be needed
13:32 < kanzure> I was thinking of writing a page on "Why funding would be really, really useful in bootstrapping a possible singularity"
13:32 < kanzure> (theoretically we could just dumpster dive for parts (etc) but ..)
13:33 < fenn> ybit: who is your friend working on replication?
13:33 < ybit> fenn: phreedom
13:33 < fenn> oh ok
13:34 < fenn> that explains a lot :)
13:34 < ybit> ! :P
13:34 < ybit> how do you know him?
13:34 < fenn> i don't
13:34 < ybit> ah, so you were referencing his username 
13:35 < fenn> i know him by reputation i guess. synthetic serendipity
13:35 < ybit> i like the idea of making siai a subdirectory of si.org
13:35 < kanzure> ybit: so fenn and I know a mutual contact, and I'm wondering if you know him
13:36 < ybit> perhaps
13:36  * fenn peers around the room intently
13:36 < kanzure> have you read today's backlog alrady?
13:36 < kanzure> *already
13:36 < ybit> is it in the backlog?
13:36 < kanzure> yeah, so if it is then I know you don't know him
13:36 < kanzure> *so if you have
13:37 < ybit> i might have missed something (hardly any sleep last night)
13:37 < fenn> kanzure: i had an interesting conversation with my mom, apparently she was guided/inspired by arthur winfree and was telling me how amazing erik winfree was (right before i was about to say the same thing)
13:37 < fenn> "and now little erik is grown up" hah
13:37 < kanzure> heh
13:37 < kanzure> so that's good
13:37 < kanzure> I'm definitely going to pursue that lab position
13:38 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/winfree.html (erik, not arthur)
13:38 < fenn> good
13:38 < kanzure> ybit: superkuh?
13:38 < ybit> first time to hear of him/he
13:38 < ybit> r
13:39 < fenn> i wonder if i should contact winfree about my ideas on self-assembled fpga error correction
13:39  * fenn is terribly shy
13:42 < fenn> nss should have more space settlement art contests
13:42 < kanzure> nss should have more online web presence
13:42 < kanzure> but I'll be fixing that soon
13:42 < fenn> i'm totally underwhelmed by nasa's 18-and-under space colony proposals
13:43 < fenn> there are some really good artists out there who are just pissing their efforts away on star-wars fantasy crap because they dont have any technical guidance
13:43 < fenn> or reason to want technical guidance
13:44 < ybit> kanzure: is this the markram vid you watched?
13:44 < ybit> btw, i'm 22
13:45 < ybit> missed 2 years of school o.O due to back surgery and heavy depression
13:45 < fenn> kanzure: re On_the_design_of_a_singularity why do you say the toposophic conjecture is false? that isnt clear from the text
13:46 < ybit> slightly OT, but following up from last night 
13:46 < ybit> oh.. the link...http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2874207418572601262&q=Henry+Markram+lecture+video&ei=ZdYlSPWqD5KqrwLd8r2QCg
13:47 < fenn> ybit: you arent missing much
13:47 < fenn> escape while you still can!
13:47 < ybit> heh
13:47 < fenn> (as he gets sucked into the maw of grad school)
13:48 < ybit> i need money atleast until a free molecular assembler is built
13:48 < kanzure> fenn: I didn't say it is false, I say ignore it
13:48 < kanzure> ybit: molecular assemblers aren't necessary
13:48 < kanzure> we're doing macroscale self-replication here, not just molecular nanotech
13:50 < fenn> " How could this be acceleration if it's still relying on linear fabricational processes?" because the linear processes are getting faster with each new advance (being exchanged for faster linear processes)
13:50 < ybit> can you explain what you mean? macroscale makes me think of macroscopic, which is larger than molecular
13:50 < fenn> ybit: think back to leonardo da-vinci
13:51 < fenn> you have a clockwork man making gears
13:51 < fenn> those gears and cams control the movement and processes the clockwork men execute
13:51 < fenn> this is called a clanking replicator
13:52 < fenn> if you abstract the function of gears and mechanical men, you can come up with clever ways to shortcut costly and error-prone subsystems
13:53 < fenn> for example, shannon's information threshold
13:53 < fenn> the atom-level spacing is one such physical threshold
13:53 < fenn> this is why molecular nanotech is so appealing
13:54 < fenn> but interacting with the physical world at that scale is a pain in the ass right now
13:55 < fenn> there are no man-made self-replicating systems in existence, even when we have the tools laying around to make them, there isnt even a design
13:55 < fenn> reprap cant make a squirter nozzle, they havent even mentioned ways to go about making one
13:55 < Vedestin> can they make an axle
13:55 < fenn> an axle?
13:56 < Vedestin> axle
13:56 < fenn> please elaborate, what is an axle?
13:56 < kanzure> his point is that it needs a squirter nozzle
13:56 < kanzure> the nozzle has to be able to make itself
13:56 < kanzure> and it doesn't
13:56 < fenn> well, the nozzle doesn't have to make itself
13:56 < kanzure> ah, right
13:56 < fenn> but something in the system has to make a nozzle
13:56 < kanzure> well, the point is that it has to make a part that can make it
13:56 < Vedestin> axle, the thing between two wheels
13:56 < kanzure> 'a dependency loop' is what we call it
13:57 < fenn> kanzure: actually its a functionality loop
13:57 < fenn> a dependency loop would leave you with nothing done at all
13:57 < kanzure> hrm
13:57 < kanzure> okay, yes.
13:57 < fenn> whereas we can make the first generation, but it can't make the second generation
13:57  * fenn has problems with dependency loops :(
13:57 < Vedestin> dump her
13:58 < fenn> um. not that kind of problem
13:58 < Vedestin> oh, win her back
13:58  * fenn glares at Vedestin 
13:58 < Vedestin> it was 50/50
13:59 < fenn> stupid brains
13:59 < fenn> hurry up on the refactor kanzure
13:59 < Vedestin> so is this supermemo software useful?
13:59 < fenn> if you're learning languages
13:59 < fenn> check out mnemosyme
14:00 < Vedestin> i'm learning maths
14:00 < kanzure> fenn: which refactor, and of what
14:00 < kanzure> Vedestin: the best way to learn math is to become Ramanujan, I think.
14:00 < kanzure> hehe
14:00 < fenn> http://mnemosyne-proj.sourceforge.net/
14:00 < Vedestin> hmm, short of that
14:00 < fenn> kanzure: refactor of the brain
14:00 < kanzure> Vedestin: http://heybryan.org/math/math.php more for the quotes and links at the top
14:00 < kanzure> fenn: heh :)
14:00 < kanzure> fenn: oh, so let me continue
14:00 < kanzure> shit, I didn't realize I forgot so much 
14:01 < kanzure> okay, so I was talking about the 'next generation' - the refactoring, right?
14:01 < kanzure> and we've talked about why self-replication and exponential growth would be useful for that before
14:01 < kanzure> we could either (1) replicate the computer hardware to simulate it (and this would be useful for ai too)
14:01 < kanzure> or (2) we could self-replicate physical experiments, with some digital measuring devices of course
14:01 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Neuropod (if this isn't here, check for incoming links)
14:01 < fenn> or microfluidic chips
14:02 < kanzure> yeah, the whole brain implant spiell
14:02 < fenn> i mean for experimentation
14:02 < kanzure> anyway, so if we can get that exponential growth
14:02 < kanzure> then we can have very vast fields of experimental brain parts
14:02 < kanzure> and then we can do selection experiments
14:02 < kanzure> it's a genetic algorithm (GA) for generating insights, new perceptions and new brains - new augmentations, etc.
14:03 < fenn> this is biological evolution all over again
14:03 < kanzure> and while you're at it you can just digitally wire all of the slices up together - yes, there's somewhat of a lag, but it'd be good for experimental approximation of what an assembled brain from various units might do, or to elucidate the principles underlying a certain slice that we are experimenting on
14:03 < kanzure> yeah, :-/
14:03 < fenn> same stupid weird incomprehensible mistakes
14:03 < kanzure> hopefully we can constrain possibility space though
14:03 < fenn> 'computer, give me only understandable results!'
14:03 < kanzure> hm?
14:04 < kanzure> please explain
14:04 < fenn> computers are notoriously bad at (the opposite of) idea hiding
14:04 < fenn> they can't explain what they're thinking
14:04 < kanzure> can you?
14:04 < fenn> yes
14:04 < kanzure> I must suck. 
14:05 < fenn> i can model wat the other person understands
14:05 < fenn> then i tailor my communication to that model
14:05 < fenn> computer just spits out results
14:05 < fenn> genetic algorithm just produces hidden ideas
14:06 < kanzure> I am not making the connection. GA good or bad here?
14:06 < Vedestin> GA incomplete here
14:06 < fenn> with enough effort you can dissect the results of GA searches for functional designs, and abstract "themes" or how to actually do what you want
14:06 < kanzure> oh
14:06 < kanzure> I'm talking about a physical GA in the case of the neuropod, of course
14:07 < fenn> either way
14:07 < kanzure> I don't understand
14:07 < fenn> ever actually looked at a GA output?
14:07 < kanzure> are you saying that the GA results would be too much data to sift through
14:07 < fenn> i'm saying GA would be just as hard to understand as studying monkey brains or squid brains
14:07 < kanzure> it's a scoring function
14:08 < kanzure> if it does something well, then there you go
14:08 < fenn> how do you score for understandability?
14:08 < kanzure> 'selection experiments' - 'directed evolution'
14:08 < kanzure> huh?
14:08 < kanzure> understandability?
14:08 < fenn> you want an understandable neuropod so you can make a better one right?
14:08 < kanzure> no?
14:08 < kanzure> what would that mean?
14:08 < kanzure> but I'm pretty sure, no ;)
14:08 < fenn> means make a model of how it works, in human understandable terms
14:08 < kanzure> do you mean a neuropod - a slice of neural tissue - that is organized in a way that is pretty to my eyes?
14:09 < kanzure> oh
14:09 < kanzure> no, not at all
14:09 < kanzure> I'm thinking of this from a different perspective apparently
14:09 < kanzure> so you have, say, a million neuropods out there, and you're integrating functionality into them - kind of like a giant brain, you're making billions of new minicolumns
14:09 < fenn> i just dont think you're going to get anywhere by evolving new brain types
14:09 < fenn> in the short term, yes, long-term no
14:09 < kanzure> and you're feeding stimulation into certain sectors of them, and you're trying to train some to do certain things, and some are better than others
14:10 < kanzure> so if one of them works, you look at the rules that you used to build that slice or column etc
14:10 < kanzure> by 'work' I mean, "shift the input data stream to this pod here - see if it can process the data better"
14:10 < kanzure> it'd be like the difference between the brain routing information about physics into a minicolumn about women (assuming your one-to-one mapping is true)
14:10 < kanzure> *mapping hypothesis (?)
14:10 < fenn> getting it to 'work' is the easy part
14:11 < fenn> you can do that with ANN's already
14:11 < kanzure> yeah.
14:11 < fenn> so why physically instantiate that
14:11 < kanzure> uhh
14:11 < kanzure> hm
14:12 < kanzure> well, I guess because we don't yet have the type of density that the brain can achieve
14:12 < kanzure> but that's not a good reason
14:12 < fenn> in ANN's?
14:12 < kanzure> right
14:12 < kanzure> have you seen an ANN with 100 billion neurons yet ?
14:12 < kanzure> I haven't.
14:12 < fenn> if there were a decent effort for making custom ANN hardware, we'd have much better connectivity than squishy hard-wired neurons
14:12 < fenn> as it is they're all run in emulators at great computational cost
14:13 < fenn> there are fpga's with millions of gates
14:13 < kanzure> okay, either way
14:14 < kanzure> both ways require skdb and manufacturing
14:14 < fenn> looks like state of the art is around 10Mgate
14:14 < fenn> (with a 10 billion dollar chip fab backing you up)
14:14 < kanzure> and both ways I'm perfectly all right with ... although I would like to work on brain architectures that can fit within a skull
14:14 < kanzure> or moonbrains etc.
14:15 < fenn> ok but the difference between FPGA-based ANN's and neuropods is that you can design the fpga to report its configuration back to you
14:15 < fenn> instead of sifting through tedious error-prone measurements
14:15 < fenn> markram's patch-clamp stuff is a fucking joke
14:16 < kanzure> remember, I said there were two approaches - wetware instantiation or computational simulations (FPGA-based ANNs)
14:16 < kanzure> as for reporting the configuration back
14:16 < kanzure> that's not the point really
14:16 < fenn> yes, it is
14:16 < kanzure> the idea is that there are some rules in mammalian brain organization which can be exploited to some extent
14:17 < kanzure> molecular targetting, synaptic learning statistics, voltage regulation of voxels, etc
14:17 < kanzure> so those rules are what you need to know really
14:17 < kanzure> you just need to remember that neuropod or fpga-block 901492 was xyz rules etc
14:17 < kanzure> (typical infrastructure management)
14:17 < fenn> xyz-rules = random seed?
14:18 < fenn> (one problem with that is neuropods dont grow deterministically)
14:18 < fenn> fpga's won't necessarily grow deterministically either
14:18 < fenn> re: winfree dna tiling and error correction schemes
14:19 < kanzure> not quite random seed - but only for practical reasons
14:19 < kanzure> for example, if we had a 20 digit random seed we'd need 2^20 units to be testing
14:19 < fenn> but but but you can use rules to find the optimum fpga configuration for a given physical dna tiling
14:19 < kanzure> that's not fun - so we can use our brains already to constrain the search space
14:19 < kanzure> yeah
14:20 < kanzure> I don't know what you are arguing
14:20 < kanzure> you're just repeating me it seems
14:20 < fenn> neuropods have the same problems as regular bio research
14:20 < kanzure> or are you trying to convince me that wetware should be avoided?
14:20 < fenn> basically i'm saying it's a bad idea
14:21 < fenn> hey what about this - genetically engineered neurons that can report their configuration somehow
14:21 < kanzure> patch clamp technique supposedly retrieves that information
14:21 < fenn> bullshit
14:21 < kanzure> but you're talking about molecular signaling, right?
14:21 < kanzure> fenn: why bullshit?
14:21 < fenn> patch clamp is like poking at stuff with a multimeter
14:22 < fenn> it's not qualitatively the same as getting a readout of the configuration
14:22 < kanzure> yeah, so you then do microfluidic analysis on the contents of the cell at that moment
14:22 < kanzure> that's true
14:22 < kanzure> but what if you're the one who is setting the configuration to some extent
14:22 < kanzure> you're looking for the 'learning rules'
14:22 < fenn> tell me how an intel processor was built by poking at it with a multimeter
14:22 < kanzure> not the actual current configuration - that doesn't matter as much, although in some cases it could
14:22 < kanzure> processors are generated from higher-level language rules and so on
14:23 < kanzure> same thing here - evolutionary history has been working on a 'meta' level, not just neurons really, but the organizational scheme of the brain
14:23 < kanzure> and maybe even just the learning rules
14:23 < kanzure> not so much the physical basis of a giant cerebellum etc hehe
14:24 < fenn> i'd like to see markram simulate a cockroach
14:24 < kanzure> how many neurons?
14:24 < kanzure> he's up to worms at this point apparently
14:24 < kanzure> (although that was 2005/2006)
14:24 < fenn> oh i thought he was doing rats (part of a rat)
14:24 < kanzure> a minicolumn
14:24 < kanzure> there's about a million minicolumns in the neocortex
14:25 < fenn> but with a cockroach running in realtime you can hook it up to your cockroach robot
14:25 < kanzure> the rat minicolumn is 1/10th the size of a hu minicolumn
14:25 < kanzure> yes
14:25 < kanzure> or at least get the information feed from the cockroach, somehow
14:25 < kanzure> there was a moth that was wired up to a robot a while back
14:25 < fenn> sure that's relatively easy
14:25 < kanzure> wait, that was a cockroach
14:25 < kanzure> they had it on one of those 'virtual reality treadmill' setups, except it wasn't virtual reality, just a camera to around the robot
14:26 < kanzure> oops, not a robot
14:26 < kanzure> food here, brb
14:26 < fenn> i saw a (flesh) cockorach driving a robot with wheels
14:30 < fenn> sage math has driven some cool work for compiling python to C (cython, based on pyrex)
14:50 < kanzure> neat
14:50 < kanzure> so, you just use that sort of input and stimulation
14:50 < kanzure> I think that's where I was going with that
14:54 < kanzure> We were going somewhere in our conversation. Oh, I guess I need to bring up the skdb implementation issues re: the 'matter compiler' idea. I'll forward you an email from Eric.
14:55 < kanzure> guess I already did.
15:06 < fenn> i'd love to talk about and catch up on hunting's stuff but i think i should mow the lawn right now
15:07 < fenn> (death of all progress)
15:21 < kanzure> yes
15:21 < kanzure> automate it
15:21 < kanzure> there are lawn bots on ebay for $400
15:21 < kanzure> just saying.
15:22 < kanzure> I had to show my dad that since he didn't believe me
15:22 < kanzure> doesn't think they are possible or worthwile
15:22 < kanzure> *worthwhile
16:32 < ybit> kanzure: would you mind explaining why i won't need a molecular assembler?
16:32 < kanzure> ybit: A molecular assembler would be great, no doubt about it. But clanking replicators are a good first step too.
16:33 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/DNA_Day <-- DNA Day? Hm.
16:37 < fenn> ybit: by making a working macro-scale replicator you've figured out the principles required, then you have a theory to work with when you try to repeat the process at nano-scale
16:40 -!- nsh [n=nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has joined #hplusroadmap
16:40 < kanzure> Hi nsh.
16:40  * nsh waves a tenement yard tenticle
16:41 < nsh> hrmm
16:42 < nsh> what's the name for the phenomenon of positive-feedback in path formation (like over a grass lawn on campus)?
16:42 < nsh> future walkers are (sub/semi)consciously drawn to the path word by previous walkers
16:44 < nsh> if there isn't a term for this effect there should be. in any case, i was just thinking of an extension to the concept in terms of the division (allotment) created by the dividing path.
16:45 < nsh> often when something is discussed, there is a memory effect based on the previously-employed distinctions of earlier discussors
16:45 < kanzure> hm
16:45 < nsh> which again (sub/semi)consciously draws people into repeating the dichotomisation
16:45 < nsh> (came to mind when reading your roadmap -- the statement about type-1 and type-2 transhumanism)
16:46 < kanzure> aha
16:46 < nsh> but it's a thing that's been bobbing about my brain for a few years without anything to anchor it
16:46 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/transhumanism_def.html
16:46 < kanzure> Okay, I see what you are saying
16:46 < kanzure> The big problem is that the guys who make the paths in the first place; you see, they remember the distinctions they had to make
16:46 < kanzure> They remember what the differences were and so on,
16:46 < kanzure> while others who then have the chance to follow that path, don't necessarily have to do anything but walk it
16:46 < nsh> right, but subsequent users of the path-- exactly
16:46 < kanzure> nsh: re: anchoring, that's kind of like the grounding problem
16:47 < kanzure> One of our projects in here is 'grounding the semantic web'
16:47 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/exp.html
16:47 < nsh> (a very common difficulty in longstanding discussions)
16:47 < nsh> ah
16:48 < kanzure> sounds like you might be interested in it
16:48 < kanzure> I wrote an essay last night, but fenn dislikes it, so take it with some salt: http://heybryan.org/2008-05-09.html
16:48  * nsh has to keep tight reins on his interest in these kinds of subjects
16:49 < nsh> i suffer from combinatorial explosions in ambitious projects ;-/
16:52 < kanzure> yes, same here
16:52 < kanzure> attention is the primary scarcity
16:52 < kanzure> but I don't suffer for it :)
16:53  * nsh smiles
16:53 < kanzure> http://www.autism.org/temple/genius.html An article on autism, genius and programming that I'm reading in the background. But it's somewhat preaching to the choir.
16:53 < kanzure> nsh: Part of my interest in these projects is for brain augmentation so that I *can* pay more attention. 
16:53 < nsh> yes, quite :-)
16:55 < nsh> i had a good chat with ward (cunningham) once
16:56 < nsh> i was half-way through writing up an explanation of the next development in the evolution of the document
16:56 < nsh> for him, and i guess i forgot about it
16:57 < kanzure> Page I just added - http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Brainstate_augmentation_setup
16:57 < kanzure> Ward Cunningham. Hm. I've heard of him, I don't remember him though.
16:58 < kanzure> I think he might be more popular than Engelbart and Nelson
16:58 < nsh> made the first wiki
16:58 < nsh> really nice guy, from the little i had a chance to see
16:59 < kanzure> oh, 
16:59 < kanzure> c2.com ?
16:59 < nsh> right
16:59 < kanzure> good stuff
17:01  * nsh smiles
17:04 < kanzure> I have some quotes from c2 on http://heybryan.org/quotes.html but I gathered them back in 2006, so there might be more there by now
17:05 < nsh> did you ever read Douglas Adam's speech on the four ages of sand?
17:05 < nsh> given at a digital biota conference on synthetic life
17:06 < kanzure> shit, no :(
17:06 < kanzure> but I do read Douglas Adams extensively, same with his friends - Pink Floyd, Monty Python, Dawkins, etc.
17:06 < nsh> http://www.biota.org/people/douglasadams/  worth a read
17:07 < nsh> it might be personal, but whenever i read it, i get the feeling he's saying a lot below the surface level of what he's stating
17:08 < kanzure> re: biota.org
17:08 < kanzure> I like Eugene Leitl's postbiota.org website
17:08 < kanzure> http://postbiota.org/pipermail/lists/tt
17:08 < kanzure> erm
17:08 < kanzure> http://postbiota.org/pipermail/tt
17:09 < nsh> nice, thanks
17:10 < nsh> (another 'bookmark all [60] tabs' evening)
17:10 < kanzure> nsh: I do 300+ tabs a night.
17:10 < kanzure> :(
17:10 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/shots/operaessions_0.jpg
17:10  * nsh lost his laptop a week last friday night, and by a stroke of amazing fortune had it returned last friday
17:10 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/shots/2008-01-15-tabs.png
17:10 < nsh> wow, i thought i was bad. i peak at about 100 per session
17:11 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/shots/Dec28th02006_2.PNG
17:11 < nsh> we should do a history-alignment
17:11 < kanzure> nsh: I peak at 40~ if I am using Firefox. I learned the hard way.
17:11 < kanzure> yes
17:11 < kanzure> fuck.
17:11 < kanzure> I was just talking to Paul Fernhout over at OpenVirgle about this problem
17:11 < kanzure> but also before, a few times in 2006 too
17:11 < nsh> oh?
17:11 < kanzure> I was wondering what the file data format would be
17:11 < nsh> ah, right
17:11 < nsh> yeah
17:11 < kanzure> well, you see, it takes too much energy to do this
17:11 < kanzure> because you have to bookmark everything and reference etc etc
17:12 < nsh> right, that's the problem
17:12 < kanzure> and already it takes Opera about 20 seconds to open up my bookmarking system
17:12 < kanzure> I have a page on this problem
17:12 < kanzure> it's a fundamental problem
17:12 < kanzure> known as overhead ;)
17:12  * nsh nods
17:12 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/bookmarking.html
17:12 < kanzure> So that's why I am interested in attention, again.
17:12 < nsh> ideally, every interaction with a the web should add organisational information to it
17:12 < kanzure> of course
17:12 < kanzure> but this is why programmers hate doing documentation
17:12 < kanzure> it's why when you have time to blog, you don't have anything to blog about
17:13 < kanzure> it's why I have hundreds of pages with microscopic writting on it that I scrawl out during school that, alas, I never look back at 
17:13 < kanzure> (since I really, really dislike doing the same thing twice)
17:13 < nsh> amen
17:14 < nsh> hmmm
17:14 < kanzure> computational complexity
17:14 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/recursion.html - which I linked to in the file on the brainstate augmentation article I just made a few moments ago
17:14 < kanzure> (I added a link from http://heybryan.org/interfaces.html to it)
17:15 < nsh> the thing is, most of what we read will be later read by someone else. so, why not harness this in the same way as social security
17:15 < nsh> the next generation of readers helps to organise the trail of the previous
17:15 < nsh> the effect however is cumulative
17:15 < nsh> unlike pension payments 
17:15 < kanzure> perhaps
17:15 < nsh> this prevents (individuals) recovering ground while allowing ground to be recovered
17:16 < kanzure> hm
17:16 < kanzure> or 
17:17 < kanzure> I was talking earlier today about some ideas on a 'perceptual ecology' (downloading rules for building brains - of the sort that Markram talks about in the vid that we're talking about in ##neuroscience at the moment) - and these could be distributed as easily as genes are sent back and forth over the web
17:17 < nsh> hmmm
17:18 < kanzure> I'll have to upload the logs, I guess, but I also don't expect you to entirely read them thoroughly because of the combinatorial explosion problem
17:18 < nsh> what could be distributed is rules for the topological manipulation of the informational space (landscape)
17:18  * nsh smiles
17:18 < kanzure> well, sort of
17:18 < kanzure> the idea is to come up with rules for getting better at making rules for organizing brains and so on
17:18 < kanzure> or other intelligence systems, but brains happen to be a pretty good bet at the moment
17:19 < kanzure> the 2008-05-09.html paper describes some approaches to the singularity / to exponential growth, and it's *not* through ai -- it's through a manufacturing repository like apt-get, it's what fenn and I work on most of the time
17:19 < kanzure> except recently (like today - I have this massive headache and have been avoiding the code)
17:20 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Skdb is the meta-repository, as described in http://heybryan.org/exp.html and http://heybryan.org/2008-05-09.html and http://oscomak.net/ among others. 
17:20 < kanzure> the 'review' link in exp.html is a chunk that was placed in 2008-05-09.html rather successfully, juxtapositioned with the $10 billion USD in value that debian represents, + the intense infrastructure load problems that debian has :)
17:22 < nsh> mmmm
17:23  * fenn snickers @ 4x repeated autism.org banner
17:23 < nsh> yeah, i had a good chuckle at that
17:24 < nsh> and, hi :-)
17:24 < nsh> this guy has a nice voice (emergence of intelligent in the neocortical microcircuit video)
17:24 < kanzure> yes
17:24 < kanzure> fenn: nsh is banned?
17:25 < kanzure> oh
17:25 < kanzure> heh
17:25 < kanzure> fenn: That article doesn't seem to have much new. 
17:26 < kanzure> re: the 3D video guy, that's another link entirely. http://www.grandin.com/inc/mind.web.browser.html
17:26 < kanzure> Yeah, same guy.
17:26 < kanzure> Temple Grandin. Hm.
17:27 < fenn> kanzure you could scan/OCR your notes, handwriting recognition is getting pretty good lately
17:27 < fenn> temple grandin is a woman btw
17:27 < kanzure> I tried Google's octex, or whatever, and a few others
17:27 < kanzure> fenn: not a trannie?
17:27 < kanzure> re: OCR, 
17:27 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/projects/autoscholar/ - look at the results. That's state of the art. What type of bullshit is this.
17:27 < kanzure> (down at the bottom)
17:28 < kanzure> nsh: fenn has his own personal theory that any interesting woman is in fact a man in disguise, i.e. a transexual
17:28 < kanzure> Sarah Emm from #electronics is a good example
17:28 < fenn> i can make an exception for autistics
17:28 < kanzure> oh?
17:28 < kanzure> this is good news.
17:30 < fenn> nsh your grass path sounds similar to electrical arc initiation
17:30 < fenn> might get more intellectual theory around that
17:30 < nsh> aye, good idea
17:30 < kanzure> nsh: oh, speaking of paths and brainsynchs, http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Getting_up_to_speed but it's kind of outdated by a month or two
17:32 < nsh> got
17:33 < nsh> nice "the butterflies of the cerebal cortex"
17:33 < fenn> re: "rules for getting better at making rules" this reminds me of engelbart's bootstrapping by making knowledge repositories that enable making better knowledge repositories
17:35 < fenn> but personally i don't have the social-animal bent required for understanding political incompatibilities and how to prevent them with software
17:35 < kanzure> how so?
17:35 < kanzure> political incompatabilities with what?
17:36 < kanzure> nsh: ok, just typed up some notes on brainsynch - http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Brainsynch apparently I hadn't put up any text on such a thing on the wiki. pretty weird for me 
17:36 < fenn> between people/groups of people working on the same project
17:36 < fenn> see: wikipedia clusterfuck
17:36 < nsh> antagonism of vision
17:37 < kanzure> hm
17:37 < kanzure> fenn, I don't understand
17:37 < fenn> christ with the brainsynch thing, its hard enough to even get your own stuff down on paper
17:37 < kanzure> this is very simply solved with software
17:37 < fenn> s/paper/bits/
17:37 < kanzure> I thought that git would be the solution
17:37 < kanzure> just do a fork of the metarepo/skdb/oscomak/wikipedia
17:38 < kanzure> (wikipedia, admittedly, may always remain dry and in an eternal cesspool (although with some awesome parts, yes))
17:38 < fenn> git is an elegant way to sidestep a lot of political thrashing, but its only at one level (the physical layer if you will)
17:38 < kanzure> ah, so you're talking about the social biases really
17:38 < fenn> yes i suppose (not sure what that really means)
17:38 < kanzure> even if you split and fork it, people might learn about it and get upset
17:38 < kanzure> but didn't you say earlier today
17:38 < fenn> well with git you're supposed to for it by default
17:38 < kanzure> that you want to be able to take your space habitats and just go away when retards start thrashing you?
17:39 < fenn> to fork it*
17:39 < nsh> mmmm
17:39 < nsh> massively single-player collaborative knowledge
17:39 < kanzure> nsh: heh
17:39 < kanzure> nsh: nethack on steroids
17:39 < kanzure> as if it wasn't already enough
17:39  * nsh smiles
17:39 < fenn> yes and that's the beauty - you're sposed to fork a space habitat for fastest exponential growth
17:39 < kanzure> fenn: so then I think you already knew your solution :)
17:39 < fenn> i.. what?
17:39 < kanzure> huh?
17:40 < fenn> who are you and what are you doing in my irc channel!
17:40  * kanzure 's brain explodes
17:40 < fenn> srsly what do you mean "i think you already knew your solution"?
17:40 < kanzure> well, you said that you didn't understand how to deal with political incompatabilities
17:40 < kanzure> but yet you already were mentioning forking earlier today
17:40 < nsh> i think he meant that forking can (partially) resolve political differences
17:40 < kanzure> and that seems to be the way to deal with those more 'violent' problems
17:40 < fenn> nsh: it's a way to sidestep political differences
17:41 < fenn> ok i'll concede that i have been working on political issues and just didnt know it
17:41 < kanzure> fenn: http://canonizer.com/ ? but I don't consider this to be all that good
17:41 < kanzure> I mean, you just can't poll for opinions like that
17:41 < kanzure> not in such a centralized top-down system
17:41 < fenn> guess this goes back to engelbart and "structured argumentation"
17:41 < kanzure> Brent Allsop just doesn't get it
17:42 < kanzure> (but is otherwise a good guy :))
17:42 < fenn> hmmm yeah it would be nice to have certain "located in one place" perspectives on a distributd "opinion layer" of the internet
17:43 < kanzure> eh
17:43 < kanzure> but then you get into Wikipedian NPOV territory
17:43 < kanzure> "this is the official view"
17:43 < fenn> but how do you prevent things from turning into a slashdot neverending stream of idiocy and repetition
17:43 < fenn> never said anything about official view
17:43 < fenn> just "this is joe's survey of topic 1234"
17:43 < kanzure> I think that this is what Paul was talking to me about a few days ago
17:44 < kanzure> he was trying to get me to understand that refactoring doesn't entirely suck
17:44 < kanzure> and I was fighting him about that for a while
17:44 < kanzure> until I realized that he's basically right
17:44 < fenn> "these are the methods i used to find opinion and arguments about 1234"
17:44  * nsh nods
17:44 < kanzure> at some point you're going to have to do an integration of the different thoughts and political views
17:44 < kanzure> fenn: right
17:44 < kanzure> at some point you're going to have to show how those methods are similar on a low level
17:44 < kanzure> and then find an equivalency
17:44 < kanzure> but doing this with all of the overhead? jeesh
17:44 < kanzure> painful
17:44 < nsh> fenn, you can always go from a pov->npov or opionion->factual-statement, or subjective->objective via abstraction and contexualisation
17:44 < fenn> what overhead?
17:45 < kanzure> fenn: well, data entry to insert the procedures to arrive at opinions and so on
17:45 < kanzure> hopefully we could record that via brain imaging or something
17:45 < kanzure> (one day)
17:45 < fenn> nsh: i dont believe in NPOV
17:45 < fenn> or "truth" or "factual statement"
17:45 < kanzure> nsh: the true direction is 'objective'(unknown)->subjective
17:45 < kanzure> http://extropy.org/ on subjectivity
17:45  * nsh smiles
17:45 < nsh> both good points
17:45 < kanzure> http://www.maxmore.com/extprn3.htm
17:46 < nsh> i have very long-winded and (currently) largely-tangential views on this subject that i won't go into at the moment
17:46 < fenn> kanzure: nah there have been many proposals for opinion layers, none of them have taken off for some reason
17:46 < kanzure> nsh: can you supercompress the ideas into a single sentence, with as much dense terminology as possible?
17:47 < kanzure> so that we can at least get a hint
17:47 < fenn> heh
17:47 < kanzure> fenn: I don't know if we *need* to have opinion integration layers anyway
17:47 < kanzure> I certainly agree that having people follow our 'arguments' and so on is a good idea
17:47 < fenn> the heteronormative reintegration of emergent noumenal philosocialism
17:47 < kanzure> awesome
17:47 < kanzure> how do you pronounce heterogenous, just a random question
17:48 < kanzure> I was debating this in my calculus 2 class the other day.
17:48 < nsh> het and erogenous like the zones
17:48 < fenn> het urro jean eyus
17:48 < kanzure> fenn: see, I do it more like the biologists
17:48 < nsh> i stress on second syllable
17:48 < kanzure> heter on gen ous
17:48 < kanzure> (gen as in genetic)
17:48 < fenn> you spelled it wrong
17:48 < kanzure> yes, this is for pronunciation
17:49 < fenn> heterogeneous
17:49 < kanzure> okay, that extra e sure
17:49 < kanzure> the dictionary in the classroom had both pronunciations, but I am finding it hard to update the way I say it
17:51  * fenn crunches through some links
17:51 < fenn> definition of extropy seems flawed - information is usually attributed to entropy
17:51 < kanzure> yes
17:51 < nsh> (kazure: "the exclusivity of subjectivity is epiphenomenal to the value of logic employed. in higher degrees of logic than the aristotelian-baconian 1T2 (using Post's notation for 1 value permitted of two possible), identity becomes less self-same (more transparent) and the ratio of subject-in-object object-in-subject changes)
17:52 < fenn> maybe they meant knowledge
17:52 < kanzure> fenn: I don't know why they include 'order'
17:52 < kanzure> Lee Corbin, an extropian supposedly, has had troubles with this concept
17:52 < kanzure> he disagrees with me on "entropy is not disorder" and so on
17:52 < nsh> i would suggest everyone does
17:53 < kanzure> he says that my views go against most of it
17:53 < fenn> oh well
17:53 < nsh> though there are different degress of recognition and admition of htis
17:53 < nsh> *this
17:53 < kanzure> nsh: http://www.entropysite.com/entropy_isnot_disorder.html ENTROPY IS NOT DISORDER.
17:53  * fenn too lazy to correct wingnuts on ideology
17:53 < kanzure> entropy is, most simply, used energy
17:53 < kanzure> inaccessible energy
17:53 < kanzure> due to the limits of the lightsphere, say. 
17:53 < fenn> STOP ALL SPACEFLIGHT NOW!
17:53 < kanzure> haha
17:53 < kanzure> Negentropists believe that entropy is the flaw of the universe :(
17:54 < nsh> kanzure, you don't want to get me started on thermodynamics, either
17:54 < kanzure> nsh: As for your condensed version, I don't see why you have to incorporate other degrees of logic to explain that identity topic. Identity is actually what Lee Corbin is debating when he questions my views on entropy/extropy/enthalpy. 
17:54 < fenn> oh, "space exploration" sry
17:54 < kanzure> overcomingbias is a good blog on that.
17:54 < kanzure> sort of.
17:54 < kanzure> better just read Jef Allbright instead
17:55 < kanzure> http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/2008-April/042410.html
17:55 < kanzure> http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/2008-April/042683.html
17:55 < kanzure> http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/2008-February/041171.html
17:55 < kanzure> http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/02/second-law.html
17:55 < kanzure> http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/2008-February/041203.html
17:55 < kanzure> http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/2008-February/041211.html
17:55 < kanzure> (taken from the emails I sent Lee)
17:55 < fenn> nsh: can i make a possibly inaccurate paraphrase? "there are varying levels of subjectivity" yes/no?
17:56 < nsh> kanzure, the two laws that define binary propositional logic are the law of the excluded middle (all is either A or not-A) and the law of non-contradiction (no A is not-A). these laws implicitly define the allowable kind of identity in the logical system
17:56 < nsh> fenn, you might say that
17:58 < nsh> gotthard gunther writes realtively informatively on the connection of this restriction to the grounding problem in science
17:58 < kanzure> interesting
17:58 < kanzure> thanks for grounding it back to what I was talking about
17:58 < nsh> though his particular approach to multivalued logic, while being positive in that he doesn't immediately interpret them relative to truth value, are disappointing, in my opinion at least)
17:59 < nsh> (as he retains bimodality, opting to distribute the two values across the multi-valued matrix employed). but again, mostly digressive
18:06 < nsh> ah
18:07 < kanzure> hm?
18:07 < nsh> http://www.vordenker.de/ggphilosophy/gg_cyb_ontology.pdf   bottom of page 8
18:07 < kanzure> nsh: what's your background?
18:07 < nsh> (last paragraph of page 8 onwards)
18:07 < kanzure> cybernetic ontology for the win :)
18:07 < nsh> oh, i'm like you, i guess: aspiring polymath
18:08 < fenn> aspiring robot-god :P
18:08 < kanzure> via synbiosafe?
18:08 < kanzure> ah, that's right
18:08 < kanzure> we were talking about it earlier today
18:08  * nsh nods
18:08 < kanzure> re: GMO bullshit
18:08 < nsh> right
18:08 < nsh> i'm not a mind-reader yet :-)
18:08 < kanzure> hehe, "Haha! You can't pay, so let's steal your food!"
18:08 < kanzure> "Then you'll *have to* pay!"
18:08 < kanzure> "But we will die."
18:08 < nsh> momento hubris
18:08 < kanzure> "Huh?"
18:10 < fenn> sound more like a problem with assholes in government than GMO
18:10 < kanzure> "the reason why the sentient ego is not met anywhere within our world view is because ... it is that world."
18:10 < kanzure> "it is identical with the whole and therefore can't be contained as a part of it"
18:10 < kanzure> yep
18:11 < kanzure> but at least now I have some philosophers to cite (other than Leibniz and Allbright?) 
18:11 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leibniz
18:11 < fenn> almost correct, should be "it is that world view"
18:11 < nsh> but...
18:11 < nsh> it can only not be contained within itself
18:12 < nsh> when the order or logical type is below aleph-null
18:12 < fenn> speak english for fuck's sake
18:12 < nsh> as that is the first cardinal which can be put into a one-2-one correspondence with its proper subsets
18:12 < kanzure> fenn: yeah, I'm just copying because it's an image, not plaintext, and whoever uploaded the file should be shot
18:12 < nsh> fenn, when you have at least a countable infinity of possible values for each statement
18:12 < kanzure> countable v. uncountable is a touchy subject
18:13 < kanzure> also, cite some Godel here re: the system can't represent itself without inconsistencies, etc. etc.
18:13 < fenn> wtf does that have to do with how ego fits into subjectivity?
18:13 < nsh> (assumed you were telling me to talk english; apologies if you weren't, and if you were, for that matter)
18:13 < fenn> (i was)
18:14 < nsh> well, a grounded congitive system has a self-contained represntation of the universe
18:14 < fenn> (universe is not infinite)
18:14 < nsh> within which exists a representation (understanding) of itself
18:14 < kanzure> I don't know if it is 'ego' but at least the Jeff Hawkings-style "magical sauce" that makes you think you have unique experience
18:14 < kanzure> erm
18:14 < kanzure> bad verbalization on my part
18:15 < fenn> kanzure: re "... it is that world." did whoever wrote that say "world view originally"?
18:16 < kanzure> fenn: yes, they said "world picture"
18:16 < fenn> ok, cool
18:16 < nsh> (i would hold that godel's consistency results are only proven wrt to true-false binary logic and with the assumption of church-turing)
18:16  * fenn pats world on back for sucking slightly less
18:16 < kanzure> hehe
18:16 < fenn> was that leibniz ?
18:16 < kanzure> no, this is Gunther apparently
18:17 < kanzure> nsh: hm. didn't think of that before.
18:17  * kanzure still has the headache.
18:17 < nsh> :-/
18:17 < fenn> too much text
18:17 -!- Phreedom [n=freedom@195.216.210.2] has joined #hplusroadmap
18:18 < fenn> ah. we meet at last
18:18  * fenn draws his sword
18:18  * nsh solemnly prepares to referree the dual
18:18 < Phreedom> guys you are evil
18:19 < fenn> epiphenomenal logical assumption of church-turing hypothesis assures your doom!
18:19 < kanzure> Hi Phreedom.
18:19 < nsh> your riposte, sir, it will not stop this man's steel! i pray of you, draw
18:19 < kanzure> Why's that?
18:19 < Phreedom> kanzure: hi. they're going to kill someone ;)
18:19 < fenn> Phreedom: unfortunately you were oblivious to being attacked.
18:20 < nsh> you became food for a grue
18:20 < fenn> game over
18:20  * Phreedom hits restart
18:20 < nsh> arrghgh
18:20 < fenn> hi. so, i hear you're building a replicator
18:20 < kanzure> Hm.
18:20 < nsh> i'm meellltiiinng
18:20 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/chats/hplusroadmap/2008-05-10-%23hplusroadmap.html
18:20 < nsh> anyway..
18:20 < kanzure> That's today's log, Phreedom. You were mentioned.
18:20 < kanzure> at least, yesterday.
18:21 < fenn> care to describe your idea/plan for us?
18:22 < fenn> kanzure: do i understand correctly that canonizer.org only got 14 votes for "what is god?"?
18:23 < Phreedom> kanzure: not much I can show atm, except that right now there are 2 people working full time on making home fabrication possible
18:23 < kanzure> fenn: It is not a popular website. Like the fact that the entire framework sucks.
18:23 < kanzure> Phreedom: We're doing it in here too.
18:23 < fenn> that ikiwiki trick of hidden div's would be great for showing edit buttons in wiki-ish situations like canonizer
18:23 < fenn> Phreedom: are you limited by patent considerations?
18:23 < Phreedom> kanzure:  the plan is to develop cheap interferometers and piezo dries
18:23 < Phreedom> fenn: no
18:23 < kanzure> yes
18:24 < kanzure> Phreedom: Are you one who can withstand ridiculously dense wording? I have a description of the project here: http://heybryan.org/exp.html
18:24 < fenn> heh
18:24 < fenn> basically we dont know how to do it, so we're making a program that will tell us how
18:25 < Phreedom> kanzure:  I didn't read it yet, but it sounds all too similar to what I have in my head :)
18:25 < fenn> it mostly boils down to a matter of how you define "replication"
18:25 < nsh> can you ellaborate, fenn?
18:25 < kanzure> Phreedom: Yep. So I've been working with NSS, WTA, deity, OSCOMAK, Virgle, and a few other groups. Basically we're mimicing the debian apt-get architecture ...
18:25 < fenn> nsh: well, a flame is not exactly replication is it? nor is an apple falling on the ground ("self assembly")
18:26  * nsh nods
18:26 < fenn> kanzure: the idea was to mimic debian's social structure (which gave rise to apt-get)
18:26 < fenn> specifically they have a guiding set of principles which are really well thought out
18:27 < fenn> but nobody will give a shit if we dont have 'the goods'
18:27 < Phreedom> kanzure: I do have some nice ideas regarding apt-manufacture, but it's really too early too discuss
18:27 < kanzure> We disagree. :)
18:27  * fenn prods
18:27  * Phreedom is trying to stick with practical approach
18:27 < fenn> spit it out, n00b
18:27 < Phreedom> that is discuss stuff I can make in 1-2 year 
18:27 < Phreedom> *years
18:27 < kanzure> right
18:28 < Phreedom> everything else is cool but too far away
18:28 < kanzure> get out.
18:28 < kanzure> joking :)
18:28 < Phreedom> but piezos and interferometers will make STM, AFM and such stuff really cheap an accessible
18:28 < Phreedom> *and
18:28 < kanzure> yes
18:28 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/graphene.html
18:28  * Phreedom gotta learn to type
18:28 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/instrumentation/instru.html
18:28 < kanzure> $100 DIY STM projects + graphene manufacturing for circuits
18:28 < fenn> how do you get from AFM to macro-scale objects? or do you?
18:29 < kanzure> So that's why I am interested in a piezoelectric + solid state self-replicator, something involving those components.
18:29 < kanzure> The idea is to use the AFM nanolithography technqiues to make the arms and the components, and then use the piezo parts to move them into place (assembly)
18:29 < fenn> honestly this doesnt sound like a 1-2 year project at all
18:29 < kanzure> probably sheet-based, although my diagrams showed nanotube arms (which aren't that hard with graphene)
18:29 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/AFM_nanolithography
18:29 < kanzure> fenn: Yep. So I think that he's bullshitting us with the 'practical' statement.
18:29 < nsh> oh
18:29 < nsh> probably an aside
18:29 < kanzure> thus my "Get out" comment.
18:30 < nsh> but what are your-guys' take on memristors?
18:30 < kanzure> ah, I saw that in the news recently
18:30 < kanzure> it was a combination of transistor + capacitor + resistor, right?
18:30 < fenn> uh, whats a memristor
18:30  * Phreedom plans to have piezos and interferometers this year
18:30 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memristor
18:30 < nsh> fenn, it's like the "missing circuit element" in electronics
18:30 < nsh> a resistor that has a memory of the charge that has passed through it
18:30 < nsh> you can use them to make transistors and they scale very well, apparantly
18:31 < kanzure> ''. Specifically engineered memristors provide controllable resistance useful for switching current. In other cases, memristance theory is used as a mathematical model for empirically observed phenomena. The definition of the memristor is based solely on fundamental circuit variables, similarly to the resistor, capacitor, and inductor. Unlike those more familiar elements, memristors may be described by any of a variety of time-var
18:31 < fenn> nsh: it's a nano-abacus?
18:32 < fenn> i dont get it, why do they specifically abandon the lumped-element model?
18:32 < kanzure> "HP prototyped a crossbar latch memory using the devices that can fit 100 gigabits in a square centimeter.["
18:32 < kanzure> ""One concern is that the fundamental elements should be linear devices, which represent different cases of general AC impedance, or at least that an ideal linear device should be possible. A memristor should then be classified as a non-linear two terminal device, instead of as a "basic element"[23], because a perfectly linear memristor is equivalent to an ideal resistor.
18:32 < kanzure> "
18:32 < kanzure> In response to these comments, those who support memristor as the fourth element suggest that fundamental circuit element is defined as a passive device characterized by a specific relation between two of the following: voltage, current, charge and/or magnetic flux. It cannot have a direct relation to time. Whether the parameter linking the two is a constant value or a special function is not crucial. From this point of view, the 
18:33 < kanzure> I don't get it.
18:35 < fenn> it sounds like the electrical properties change the physical shape which changes the electrical properties (like transformers buzzing, or a spark gap arcing)
18:35 < nsh> right, fenn
18:35 < fenn> nano-abacus makes so much more sense
18:36 < kanzure> oh
18:36 < nsh> [[[
18:36 < nsh> There are four fundamental circuit variables; current, voltage, charge, and flux.
18:36 < nsh> We can define the relationships between charge and current and between flux and voltage. (charge as an integral of current, flux as an integral of voltage over time)
18:36 < nsh> A resistor provides a function to relate voltage and current.
18:36 < nsh> A capacitor provides a function to relate charge and voltage.
18:36 < nsh> An inductor provides a function to relate flux and current.
18:36 < kanzure> that's exactly what my piezo + field effect device would do 
18:36 < nsh> Until now we did not know how to construct a passive device which would provide a function relating charge and flux. The only remaining combination of these fundamental variables.
18:36 < nsh> ]]] -http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/04/30/211228&from=rss
18:36 < kanzure> if you have a piezo move the metal that makes the field effect to block the channel (down which electrons would flow to the emitter of the transistor), then you have that property
18:36  * nsh smiles
18:36 < kanzure> so is that really all it is
18:37 < kanzure> nsh: can you do me a favor?
18:37 < nsh> sure
18:37 < kanzure> last week I finally had enough of it, and now when I read Slashdot I copy/paste my notes to the wiki instead of to my own personal logs (I have 20 MB of plaintext logs :()
18:37 < nsh> mostly, but it's a continuous change in resistance
18:37 < kanzure> so
18:37 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Slashdot
18:37 < kanzure> if you read an article, please do something like I'm doing there
18:37 < kanzure> I extract most of the good, insightful comments (whether they are rated that or not)
18:37 < kanzure> http://slashdot.org/~the_kanzure is me
18:38 < fenn> kanzure: how's the whole wiki thing working out for you? i have a hard time managing wikis once they get above a certain level of complexity
18:39 < fenn> categories/tags/structure always seems like an afterthought
18:39 < kanzure> right
18:39 < kanzure> same problem as always
18:39 < fenn> (not to mention RCS shenanigans)
18:39 < kanzure> if anything it's useful because of the RCS though
18:39 < fenn> can you put hnb into git?
18:39 < kanzure> if I had skdb up and running, I'd be dumping this into projects
18:39 < kanzure> fenn: that'd be a smart thing to do
18:39 < fenn> ugh please no!
18:39 < kanzure> but I wouldn't recommend hnb any more
18:39 < kanzure> needs better interface
18:39 < fenn> skdb isnt a general purpose knowledge repository
18:40 < fenn> sekdb*
18:40 < fenn> i think your acronym is misleading
18:40 < kanzure> fenn: within the dot-skdb files, there's both natural language information, and then the semantic + coding. Remember? There were certain packages that have to be turned into the code
18:40 < nsh> kanzure, are you dating by the date of the article or when you added it?
18:40 < nsh> (on the slashdot page)
18:40 < kanzure> nsh: adding it, it seems
18:40 < kanzure> nsh: but feel free to do whatever
18:40 < nsh> ok
18:41 < kanzure> fenn: so while I don't suggest poisoning the repositories with useless projects that don't have any code,
18:41 < kanzure> I am also not about to suggest that packaging related content together is a bad idea
18:41 < kanzure> not at all ..
18:41 < kanzure> if anything my zips on the server illustrate good behavior practices
18:41 < kanzure> now I just need to chug through the papers and make formal specifications for the related projects
18:41 < kanzure> don't need somebody else to repeat the same work I've put into it (collecting information, caches, etc.)
18:41 < fenn> ok how bout, sekdb is a set of DTD-like autospec code modules, and the whole thing is a subset of "social knowledge database"
18:42 < kanzure> oh, uhh
18:42 < kanzure> I guess
18:42 < fenn> like docbook is a set of sgml
18:42 < fenn> specifically for documentation
18:42 < fenn> sekdb is a set of skdb, specifically for engineering projects
18:42 < kanzure> but if you were to agx-get --total install <some project>, that should also mean downloading some of the cached information - like the Wikipedia article on it if the package maintainers did that
18:42 < kanzure> aha
18:42 < fenn> subset*
18:43 < kanzure> but still, content is in the package, but is filtered out in downloads by default, unless the user wants it
18:43 < fenn> i guess you could just throw it on a branch
18:43 < kanzure> yep
18:43 < kanzure> hey, I need to run
18:43 < fenn> put all extended documentation on a git branch
18:43 < nsh> damn html
18:43 < kanzure> http://freebirds.com/ is where I'm heading
18:43 < fenn> nice chattin today :)
18:43 < kanzure> sure
18:43 < kanzure> I'll be back
18:43 < kanzure> after I raid Half Price Books :)
18:44 < kanzure> nsh: really quick, any book suggestions?
18:44 < nsh> have fun
18:44 < nsh> uh
18:44 < nsh> mmm
18:44 < kanzure> I have stacks of hundreds of textbooks here, but I'm always looking for more Stuff.
18:44 < fenn> ishmael by daniel quinn
18:44 < kanzure> James Clement over at WTA recommended the Lucifer Principle, but I've read a book that covers the same topic
18:44 < kanzure> Daniel Quinn is a familiar name
18:44 < nsh> ishmael is pretty good
18:44 < kanzure> somebody has been recommending somebody named Wilson Anton or something?
18:44 < nsh> damn, can't think of anything off the top of my head
18:44 < kanzure> Double Helix or something?
18:45 < fenn> robert anton wilson - prometheus rising
18:45 < kanzure> sure
18:45 < kanzure> okay
18:45 < nsh> Charles Anton Wilson
18:45 < kanzure> haha
18:45 < nsh> i read Spin, that was good
18:45 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/shots/img_8032.jpg for 1/2 of my bookshelf
18:45 < nsh> prometheus rising is also a classic
18:45 < kanzure> cya
18:46 < kanzure> somebody tell nsh, ybit, Phreedom and Vedestin to join the damn mailing list oto
18:46 < kanzure> *too
18:47 < fenn> mailing list is at http://heybryan.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hplusroadmap
18:49 < Phreedom> joined
18:50 < ybit> i'm pretty sure i've already joined once :)
18:51  * nsh joined
18:51 < nsh> , hates html
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20:52 [Users #hplusroadmap]
20:52 [ drazak] [ fenn] [ kanzure] [ krebs] [ nsh] [ Vedestin] 
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21:56 < kanzure> Hi all.
21:56 < Vedestin> gday
21:58 < kanzure> brain organization - http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/kinser/Int6_neo.html
21:58 < kanzure> I picked up a copy of E.M. Macphail, Brain and Intelligence in Vertebrates (1982)
21:59 < kanzure> and Schey's Introduction to Manufacturing Processes. Wasn't easy, there was a stack of maybe ten texts on manufacturing stuff, but they were all ridiculously out of date. 
21:59 < kanzure> The 1991 engineering/drafting book was talking about the FUTURE OF DRAFTING. It said something like, "in three to five years, sweat bands will be able to extrapolate 3D images from the electrical signals from our brain."
22:01 < Vedestin> wtf
22:01 < Vedestin> really?
22:02 < kanzure> yeah ... 
22:02 < Vedestin> why did they think that?
22:03 < kanzure> And I figured something out while flipping through those 10 texts. They are approaching the whole ordeal from a 'make a building [that happens to be a factory]" perspective. They didn't recognize the fundamental process theoretic nature of manufacturing/programming.
22:03 < kanzure> Vedestin: dunno, it's all sorts of crazy people.
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23:06 < fenn> the FUTURE OF DRAFTING - no drafting at all, really
23:06 < fenn> it's the ultimate in ephemeralization
23:07 < fenn> kanzure: there is no process theory of manufacturing/programming (yet)
23:09 < kanzure> fenn: uh, cybernetics
23:09 < kanzure> systems engineering
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23:19 < fenn> The evolution of Systems Engineering as it continues to this day, comprises development and identification of new methods and modelling techniques: methods that can aid in better comprehension of engineering systems as they grow more complex.
23:20 < fenn> this is all just management crap
23:21 < fenn> the only processes they're modeling are how to boss people around
23:32 < fenn> ooo nice http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Airplane_vortex_edit.jpg
23:32 < fenn> kinda looks like the debian logo eh?
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23:36 < kanzure> fenn: back when I was introduced into systems engineering, it was more about complexity science
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23:36 < kanzure> complex systems, design principles, the whole is greater than the sum of the parts (in some cases), etc.
23:36 < kanzure> systems engineering == cybernetics, IMHO, and the management bullshit is simply because that's what people who want to make money like to write about
23:39 < fenn> more like applied cybernetics
23:40 < fenn> i'm a student of the whole sort of general mish-mash
23:51 < fenn> gah vernor vinge cant be the only person who ever thought of a 100ksec day (besides me)
23:51 < kanzure> including the business side of things?
23:52 < kanzure> why 100ksec in particular ?
23:52 < fenn> it's slightly longer than 24 hours
23:52 < fenn> and its a nice round number
23:53 < fenn> here's some reasons why it's a good idea even for normal people http://www.dbeat.com/28/
23:53 < fenn> but in particular, i have this problem where i'm not synched to sunlight, and its easier to stay up longer (in order to fit myself to a predictable schedule) than to go to sleep earlier
23:53 < kanzure> yep
23:54 < kanzure> if things worked out for us, I don't think we'd stick to a schedule anyway
23:54 < kanzure> I found myself up at four in the morning today, for example
23:54 < kanzure> I don't mind it realyl
23:54 < kanzure> *really
23:54 < kanzure> as long as I get my stuff done :)
23:54 < fenn> also, it's how i'd time my space colony
23:55 < kanzure> my inbox has been slow today, nobody is feeding me :(
23:56 < fenn> maybe you should clean up that mess of a website you keep around
23:57 < kanzure> I was thinking of doing a recursion through http://utexas.edu/ for all courses offered
23:57 < kanzure> or at least run a wget -r 
23:57 < kanzure> on all of the syllabuses
23:57 < kanzure> and then dump this into a giant wiki page
23:57 < kanzure> (+ html2wiki somewhere in the pipeline there)
23:58 < kanzure> hm
23:58 < kanzure> what would I do on the site?
23:59 < ybit> going offline for a bit since there's a tornado nearby
23:59 < Vedestin> lol, tornado
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