--- Day changed Mon May 12 2008 00:45 -!- ybit [n=u1@unaffiliated/ybit] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 00:49 -!- ybit [n=u1@unaffiliated/ybit] has joined #hplusroadmap 02:49 -!- ybit [n=u1@unaffiliated/ybit] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:07 -!- ybit [n=u1@unaffiliated/ybit] has joined #hplusroadmap 13:05 -!- fenn [n=pz@adsl-75-60-173-255.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 13:05 -!- Topic for #hplusroadmap: http://heybryan.org/ http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/ http://heybryan.org/exp.html | krebs is now servicing the channel. try !help 13:05 -!- Topic set by kanzure [] [Tue Apr 29 18:54:31 2008] 13:05 [Users #hplusroadmap] 13:05 [ drazak] [ fenn] [ krebs] [ Vedestin] [ ybit] 13:05 -!- Irssi: #hplusroadmap: Total of 5 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 5 normal] 13:06 -!- Channel #hplusroadmap created Sat Mar 22 15:44:12 2008 13:06 -!- Irssi: Join to #hplusroadmap was synced in 26 secs 17:54 -!- kanzure [n=bryan@cpe-70-113-54-112.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 17:59 < kanzure> http://www.physicsforums.com/library.php 18:06 < kanzure> hm, UT Austin just emailed me saying that they are cancelling my housing contract 18:06 < kanzure> but I never had a housing contract with them 18:06 < kanzure> So I'm rather confused. 18:36 < kanzure> fenn: People are telling me that I should send graduation invitations to everybody I know. But I don't think they realize how many people I actually know ... 18:40 < kanzure> gmail tells me it's 780~, but I know that's not true since it doesn't include the people I personally email through my mail client (only those through gmail) 18:40 < kanzure> (through the gmail http interface) 19:17 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/cgi-bin/blosxom.cgi/2008/05/index.html updates 19:41 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/cgi-bin/blosxom.cgi/2008/05/12#2008-05-12_skdb_update 20:36 < fenn> list = [1, 2, 3] 20:37 < fenn> list.add(4) 20:37 < fenn> erm, list.append(4) 20:38 < fenn> list[0:2] == [1,2] 20:40 < kanzure> well I feel like a dick 20:40 < kanzure> that's easy 20:40 < kanzure> btw, to what extent do we want to do dependency stuff 20:40 < kanzure> I think our previous answer was "not really" - since the only dependency you should need is the one specified at the top 20:40 < kanzure> so when you download any new file, you just check that one dependency 20:41 < kanzure> since nothing here requires more than one file (the class) to read up the object 20:41 < kanzure> right? 20:41 < kanzure> hrm 20:41 < kanzure> I guess there are some metadata files that would *suggest* downloading other metadata files at a minimum 20:41 < kanzure> yes? 20:41 < fenn> you can look at all the !!python/object tags to find dependencies? or do you mean inter-artifact dependencies 20:42 < kanzure> I mean !!python/object tags for dependencies, and inter-artifact dependencies as well 20:42 < kanzure> the !! is obviously a single dependency that's going to be there no matter what 20:42 < kanzure> hm, dependency specs are kinda like a tagging cloud of dependencies. just thought of that 20:42 < kanzure> it would be interesting to search for packages that depend on other packages in debian 20:42 < kanzure> "search for depends on: kde-desktop, kbounce" 20:43 < kanzure> *search for "depends on": prog1, prog2, .. 20:43 < kanzure> *dependent on 20:43 < kanzure> there we go 20:43 < fenn> apt-depends i think 20:44 < kanzure> neat 20:44 < kanzure> I'll have to try that out 20:44 < fenn> all the tree visualization stuf is horrible 20:44 < fenn> apt-rdepends 20:44 < kanzure> hm, so I guess inter-artifact dependencies can be specified by a further data structure (an updated metadata file) 20:44 < kanzure> and therefore we don't have to mess with it right now 20:44 < kanzure> hurray 20:45 < fenn> also you can use debfoster, which i find easier to understand 20:45 < fenn> but only works on installed packages 20:46 < fenn> inter-artifact dependencies also depends (ha) on how much you're building from scratch vs buying 20:46 < kanzure> btw, you get the scratch-vs-buying issue right ? 20:46 < fenn> no? 20:46 < kanzure> wait 20:46 < kanzure> stupid question 20:46 < kanzure> sure you do 20:46 < kanzure> Gingery v. buy it at a store 20:46 < fenn> i figure it as part of your 'personality vector' 20:47 < fenn> are you a: banker, lawyer, doctor, carpenter, farmer, blacksmith 20:47 < fenn> i forget the choices now 20:47 < kanzure> eh? 20:47 < kanzure> no, I mean, 20:47 < kanzure> Ideally skdb will be grounded in complete, total 'diy from scratch' 20:47 < kanzure> but the fact is that a lot of the information is hidden behind financial walls 20:47 < fenn> not gonna happen 20:47 < kanzure> yes, we could do it from scratch if we wanted to 20:47 < kanzure> but that would take way too long 20:47 < kanzure> we don't have that sort of time 20:48 < fenn> even gingery had certain assumptions about what was available (scrap aluminum, threaded rod, bolts, taps, dril bits, files) 20:48 < kanzure> yeah :( 20:49 < fenn> knowing how to make a surface plate is interesting but not terribly useful 20:49 < fenn> or is it? 20:49 < kanzure> I'm just saying 20:49 < kanzure> this is the idea of the clay clanking replicator 20:49 < kanzure> of using the materials *right there* 20:50 < fenn> grounded in dirt 20:51 < fenn> ninety million miles out 20:51 < fenn> today all i did was watch other people work 20:51 < kanzure> well, obviously we'd change the grounding to something else for asteroidal situations 20:52 < fenn> do you consider openfarmtech sufficiently grounded? 20:52 < fenn> assuming they actually get everything to work 20:53 < kanzure> from what I have seen, not really - it looks like they're just using proprietary systems 20:53 < fenn> i'm highly skeptical of "Aluminum Extraction From Clays" 20:53 < kanzure> we have gone over this before 20:53 < kanzure> fenn: yeah, but it would be nice 20:53 < fenn> what proprietary systems? 20:54 < fenn> i guess what it comes down to is r&d cost vs purchase price 20:55 < fenn> we can distribute the r&d cost across everyone who uses skdb 20:55 < kanzure> right 20:55 < kanzure> purchase price could be used at the same time 20:55 < kanzure> for example, we could buy a robotic arm to make our own diy robotic arms 20:55 < kanzure> to 'bootstrap' the community 20:57 < fenn> what sort of thing would you buy to start bootstrapping? (a robotic arm isnt terribly useful in reality) 20:58 < kanzure> piezos, maybe - I dunno - I think it's good to have a set of projects to build up to the parts that might be used in self-replication 20:58 < fenn> i mean, with much less effort you can build 20 robotic arms, than it would take to get money to buy one 20:58 < kanzure> so origami is an interesting start, but not particularly useful 20:58 < kanzure> fenn: well, perhaps we can get funding - but that's just a big if 20:59 < fenn> actually, some origami is quite useful, for example the kane bellows 20:59 < fenn> (another MIT "product") 21:00 < kanzure> hm 21:00 < kanzure> okay 21:01 < kanzure> I just had an ... interesting chat 21:01 < kanzure> lemme upload 21:01 < fenn> patent is here: http://www.pat2pdf.org/patents/pat6397653.pdf 21:03 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/chats/2008-05-12-yikes-%23bioinformatics.html 21:05 < fenn> classic example of shock-level mismatch 21:06 < kanzure> with a good ol' FUCK YOU thrown in there :) 21:07 < fenn> of course, from his perspective it looks like you're belittling his grave concerns 21:07 < kanzure> right, I was a bit harsh in that manner, I could have drawn it out and discussed it with him 21:09 < kanzure> todo - revamp my python class to include a list of files to always fetch when installing, do a variable for uh dependency (like in debian syntax), then include the class hooks/methods that py-yaml demands in order to serialize the classes, after this I think I'm going to convert a few online examples of origami into the origami fold language, and then throw them into a git repository 21:11 < Vedestin> sounds like he just wanted to quit college 21:11 < Vedestin> and that was how he was rationalising it 21:11 < kanzure> a good rationalization is *wanting* to quit college. 21:11 < Vedestin> i guess he needed a moral objection 21:11 < Vedestin> rather than a self serving one 21:13 < Vedestin> at any rate, the development of new technologies or drugs in an open source environment would be hindered by lack of research facilities 21:14 < kanzure> Have you ever heard of a methlab? 21:14 < kanzure> or an amateur chemistry set? 21:14 < Vedestin> methlabs aren't about research 21:14 < kanzure> Who do you think these researchers are? Some sort of supermen? They, just like you or me, face the same exact problems. 21:14 < Vedestin> they're at universities 21:15 < Vedestin> or in private industry 21:15 < Vedestin> their discoveries are owned by their patrons 21:15 < Vedestin> even people who start up on their own get people to invest or sponsor them 21:16 < Vedestin> so it would take a well funded open technology institute to support any real innovative gains in any field 21:16 < kanzure> Have you heard of Gingery? 21:17 < kanzure> He bootstrapped the industrial revolution in his backyard. 21:17 < Vedestin> actually i haven't sorry 21:17 < kanzure> Without much funding. Maybe some (which is how he had the time). 21:17 < kanzure> (i.e., a wife to cook or something ?) 21:17 < kanzure> http://www.kk.org/thetechnium/archives/2007/03/bootstrapping_t.php 21:17 < Vedestin> what did he make? 21:19 < kanzure> metal manufacturing equipment 21:19 < Vedestin> i see 21:21 < Vedestin> sure, the philosophy is there 21:21 < Vedestin> but it's extremely rare 21:22 < Vedestin> and what gingery did wasn't research either 21:22 < Vedestin> he took an already proven concept and made it work in his backyard 21:22 < Vedestin> i'm sure it helped him a lot that he already knew what a lathe was 21:23 < kanzure> what are you trying to argue and why 21:25 < Vedestin> i'm trying to argue that ground breaking research in your garage is not as common as astounding feats of engineering in your garage 21:25 < fenn> gingery wrote the first book (charcoal foundry) without any funding, but the publisher sponsored the rest of the books (not much mind you) 21:25 < Vedestin> why would you need funding to write a book 21:25 < Vedestin> all you need is pen and paper 21:25 < kanzure> you don't have free food yet 21:25 < Vedestin> homeless people do 21:26 < fenn> Vedestin: you dont need funding to do anything, actually, but without it things get difficult 21:26 < Vedestin> yes, and the more complex those things are, the more difficult they become without funding fenn 21:26 < fenn> also there's a social factor, when people ask you 'what do you do' its hard to explain what you do unless you have a source of funding 21:26 < kanzure> "Money is a sign of a lack of imagination." 21:27 < Vedestin> that's not true fenn 21:27 < fenn> Vedestin: it's easy to explain that you're a mad scientist bum? wtf are you talking about 21:27 < Vedestin> who said that kanzure 21:27 < Vedestin> sure 21:28 < Vedestin> you can just say 'ohh i'm working on a great project right now about "..."' 21:28 < Vedestin> and then go on to explain what your work is 21:28 < fenn> well, its hard, believe me 21:28 < Vedestin> if you're interested enough in what you're doing i don't see how it'd be difficult to discuss with other people 21:28 < Vedestin> so what do you say when that comes up? 21:28 < Vedestin> 'oh i just play with electronics and stuff....' 21:29 < kanzure> Vedestin: Ian M. Banks 21:29 < fenn> hah Banks stole 90% of his ideas from other SF authors 21:29 < kanzure> yes 21:29 < kanzure> I was questioning the source of the quote earlier today 21:29 < kanzure> because Banks is too late in the game to have come up with such an obvious quote 21:30 < kanzure> I am reluctant to add it to my quotes.html file - it's not expressive enough, methinks 21:30 < kanzure> although I'm not saying everything else in there is :) 21:30 < Vedestin> it's a strange concept 21:30 < fenn> i'm kinda annoyed at this cultural obsession with imagination, like "imagination is more important than knowledge" -einstein <- wtf is this supposed to mean? 21:30 < Vedestin> i've met some poor people who are extremely unimaginative 21:30 < kanzure> "Everything is destined to experience the terror of absolutism of money." - Edis, Slashdot age prophet 21:30 < Vedestin> all of einsteins experiments were thought experiments fenn 21:30 < fenn> and you must tack the name 'einstein' on the end 21:30 < Vedestin> so that was true for him 21:31 < fenn> Vedestin: no, it's not true 21:31 < kanzure> fenn: cultural diffusion + dillution :( 21:31 < Vedestin> for him it was 21:31 < fenn> he did a lot of experiments on the photoelectric effect 21:31 < kanzure> `Economists are trained to believe that "money" is to the economy what "energy" is to the physical world. This leads them to believe that whatever is "economically" possible is "physically" possible too. What economists fail to realize is that the economy is a subsystem of the physical system, and thus constrained [and empowered] by universal physical laws that they have not studied.` 21:31 < fenn> then he couldnt face up to how weird reality was and retreated into fantasy land 21:31 < Vedestin> where would einstein be if he couldn't imagine what happened to the speed of light as you approached the speed of light? 21:32 < Vedestin> i like that one kanzure 21:33 < kanzure> Vedestin: Einstein's work was not a castle in the sky. He was a very intense person. He rewrote proofs from other researchers, philosophers, scientists, many many times over. 21:34 < kanzure> He wasn't just "imagining" - he was synthesizing massive amounts of information [or he stole it, either way - haha]. 21:34 < kanzure> what was his quote? something about knowing how to hide sources, methinks. 21:34 < fenn> and he was wrong 21:34 < kanzure> sure 21:35 < fenn> all the great 'geniuses' managed to do that; tesla, fuller (um, any others?) 21:35 < kanzure> If I had to choose ultimately, I think I'd be much more interested in experimental physics rather than merely theoretical physics. 21:35 < kanzure> fenn: Feynman 21:35 < Vedestin> edison 21:35 < kanzure> although he said what his sources were -- the encyclopedia ;) 21:35 < Vedestin> not that he was a great genius 21:35 < fenn> i woudlnt call edison a genius 21:35 < kanzure> Edison was a workaholic. Permutation and combination. 21:35 < Vedestin> he was a business man really 21:35 < Vedestin> a suit 21:35 < Vedestin> edison is richard branson 21:36 < fenn> heh 21:36 < fenn> branson is much more idealistic 21:36 < fenn> but branson inherited his wealth so its no surprise 21:36 < Vedestin> you wait till his tesla comes along 21:36 < Vedestin> then he'll quickly become pragmatic 21:37 < fenn> hm.. re: kevin kelly i always have that daydream, where you're walking along and suddenly fall through a time portal to ancient rome or something 21:37 < kanzure> that's interesting 21:37 < Vedestin> that doesnt happen to me 21:38 < kanzure> how is that re: kevin kelly 21:38 < fenn> http://www.kk.org/thetechnium/archives/2007/03/bootstrapping_t.php\ 21:38 < Vedestin> with the whole reinventing technology kanzure 21:38 < kanzure> hm 21:38 < Vedestin> have you seen back to the future fenn? 21:39 < fenn> then the daydream becomes 'how would i actually do it' 21:39 < fenn> Vedestin: yes a long time ago 21:39 < Vedestin> the third one, in the old west 21:39 < kanzure> sure 21:39 < fenn> all i really remember is some fancy train and chinese guys getting scammed 21:39 < Vedestin> doc brown the nuclear physicist running a blacksmithing shop in 1884 21:40 < Vedestin> chinese guys getting scammed? 21:40 < kanzure> Vedestin: you don't read much, do you 21:40 < fenn> yeah, slave ships, 'go to america the land of golden opportunity' 21:40 < Vedestin> no i don't kanzure 21:40 < kanzure> I don't mean to be insulting, but there are tons of other examples than Doc Brown and his blacksmithing shop :( 21:40 < kanzure> although that's a good, entertaining one I must admit 21:41 < Vedestin> there probably are 21:41 < kanzure> I am now a fan of Tony Stark in a cave 21:41 < Vedestin> iron man? 21:41 < kanzure> yes 21:41 < Vedestin> i havent seen that 21:41 < kanzure> fenn: it's your exoskeleton story, basically 21:42 < fenn> "you’d have to start with finding your own ore, mining and refining it with primitive tools, firing up bricks, rolling out sheet metal, developing screws and bolts by hand" 21:42 < Vedestin> cutting screws and bolts by hand 21:42 < kanzure> heh 21:42 < kanzure> fists of steel 21:42 < Vedestin> i have no idea where to start with that 21:42 < fenn> i dont think he's really thought this through 21:42 < kanzure> haha 21:42 < fenn> you can make so many things out of ceramic it's not even funny 21:42 < Vedestin> so you'd cast a die tap? 21:42 < ybit> kanzure, i think earlier today i finally read through most of your stuff :) 21:42 < kanzure> right, burning and firing clay 21:42 < fenn> especially if you can grind them precisely after firing 21:43 < kanzure> ybit: That's impressive. :) 21:43 < ybit> I'll be keeping an eye on things, I really dig the roadmap 21:43 < kanzure> ybit: Anything in particular jump out at you? 21:43 < kanzure> ah 21:44 < ybit> and getting up to speed is good 21:45 < fenn> kanzure: ever read starship troopers? 21:45 < kanzure> fenn: yes, and I have also seen the movie 21:45 < ybit> some clarity is lacking though on the wiki, a brief paragraph at the top describing exactly what the wiki is for would be helpful 21:46 < kanzure> ybit: I agree. From what you have seen, what is the wiki for? This way, I can go in and add some text to correct anything that *you* might be getting wrong [because I already *know* what it's about]. 21:46 < kanzure> hrm, emphasis on I not know. 21:46 < fenn> kanzure: uh, 'also seen the movie' lol 21:47 < kanzure> yeah, big differences between the two 21:47 < fenn> kanzure: they made a japanese animation 'uchuu no senshi' which actually has something to do with the book 21:47 < kanzure> although in the movie I think the teacher coming back was a nice touch 21:47 < ybit> or perhaps i should read the first page of the wiki better :P 21:47 < kanzure> ybit: the first page might not help much, but go see 21:49 < fenn> kanzure: also check out "maschinen krieger" http://www.roboterkampf.com/roboterhtml/htmlmakvis/camel.htm 21:49 < kanzure> fenn: I'm not a big fan of Heinlein's emphasis on citizenship, governments, etc. 21:50 < fenn> this reminds me of starship troopers: http://www.roboterkampf.com/roboterhtml/htmlmakvis/bananaboat.htm 21:50 < kanzure> cool 21:53 < fenn> i never really understood what people see in marvel comics 21:53 < kanzure> it's probably just a "whatever is on top of the stacks" thing - that's what people see, so that's what they talk about 21:54 < ybit> without having read the introduction, i thought the wiki was a large collection of helpful materials for the transhumanists roadmap.. the 'getting up to speed' page.. might be clarify what you are getting up to speed on 21:54 < ybit> there needs to be a site name that you can click on and get more info on what the site's goals are 21:55 < ybit> be/could* 21:56 < ybit> similar to what wikipedia has on their welcome page: en.wikipedia.org 21:57 < Vedestin> some sort of mission statement? 21:58 < ybit> not necessarily, perhaps just an entire wiki page dedicated to clarifying what the site is 21:58 < kanzure> besides my own personal braindump 21:58 < kanzure> hm 21:59 < kanzure> that's a tough one :) 21:59 < ybit> and an easily seen "Welcome to ___" similar to wikipedia would be helpful 21:59 < ybit> are there other contributors to the wiki? 21:59 < fenn> i wrote a page :P 21:59 < kanzure> yes, there are 21:59 < fenn> its hard to get people to contribute to a wiki 22:00 < kanzure> esp. ones with ridiculously long URLs 22:00 < ybit> i know there was a page mentioning people who are considered to be contributors 22:00 < kanzure> yep 22:00 < fenn> kanzure: why dont you mod_rewrite it? 22:00 < fenn> or does mediawiki not do that? 22:00 < kanzure> well, I tried it a few times 22:00 < kanzure> some crappy config problems that I've been having 22:00 < kanzure> I guess I'll give it another shot soon 22:01 < fenn> mediawiki sux 22:01 < kanzure> ybit: technically the contributor list is wrong, 22:01 < kanzure> superkuh doesn't show up around these parts even though I steal lots of content from him 22:01 < kanzure> Enki-2 has dropped out of here too, never updated a page either 22:01 < kanzure> epitron left in a huff and a puff 22:02 < fenn> eh something like that 22:02 * fenn hums innocently 22:02 < ybit> i think that maybe the appropriate title is 'hplusroadmap wiki' 22:02 < fenn> hey bryan you need a road map 22:02 < ybit> :P 22:02 < fenn> like grister.org 22:02 < kanzure> my roadmap isn't good enough? 22:02 < fenn> but maybe a little more .. directed 22:03 < kanzure> fenn: have you seen http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Roadmap 22:03 < ybit> lol 22:03 < kanzure> ybit: hplusroadmap wiki would be a good title, yes 22:03 < ybit> " h+ roadmap " for the graphic would be nice too :D 22:03 < kanzure> the reason it's 'biohack' is because it's really a db copy from the biohack.sf.net db when it was getting killed by lag due to the extreme load on their sql servers 22:04 < fenn> i can critique the roadmap page if you like? 22:05 < kanzure> fenn: yes, but also realize that it was written 7 mo again 22:05 < kanzure> *ago 22:05 < kanzure> I wasn't exactly organized at that time 22:06 < fenn> mainly it's just more of a set of possibilities, rather than 'this is what we need to work on' 22:06 < fenn> for example, why do we need a solar power satellite 22:06 < fenn> or space* anything 22:07 < Vedestin> arent there already solar powered satellites? 22:07 < fenn> yes thousands 22:07 < kanzure> fenn: hm? 22:07 < Vedestin> all of them are, aren't they? 22:07 < fenn> a "solar power satellite" however is solely for the purpose of beaming electricity back to earth 22:07 < kanzure> fenn: "mainly it's" is what I was hmming 22:07 < fenn> Vedestin: no, not all of them 22:08 < Vedestin> beaming electricity 22:08 < Vedestin> sim city much? 22:08 < fenn> i suppose you also believe atomic testing causes fish to mutate into giant fire-breathing lizards that will stomp on your cities 22:08 < Vedestin> dude, i've met godzilla 22:08 < Vedestin> and he's not a fish he's a sea iguana 22:08 < fenn> ah, that makes more sense then 22:09 < Vedestin> it really does 22:09 < Vedestin> but yeah, how does that work? some sort of focused ion stream? 22:09 < fenn> microwave 22:09 < fenn> do you know what a phased array antenna is? 22:09 < Vedestin> nup 22:09 < kanzure> fenn: but really, what do you mean "a set of possibilities" - did you mean that it should be a set of possibilities, or that it *is* a set of possibilities and needs to be more practically oriented ? 22:09 < Vedestin> i don't know physics 22:10 < Vedestin> yet... 22:10 < fenn> kanzure: the webpage is simply a list of possibilities for interesting technologies/projects, whereas it *should* be a well defined set of steps that we as a community should take in order to reach some destination 22:11 < fenn> you could have multiple paths, sure 22:11 < kanzure> okay 22:11 < fenn> but you dont really explain the inter-relatedness of any technologies 22:11 < kanzure> yep, I agree 22:12 < Vedestin> that totally sounded like communism for no reason at all 22:12 < Vedestin> i think it's because you said community 22:12 < fenn> i wonder if anyone's ever prank-called lifeboat.org 22:12 < fenn> they'd probably shit their pants 22:12 < ybit> simple logo with transparent background: http://bayimg.com/HAjCgaAbK simple logo with white background: http://bayimg.com/HAjChaaBK 22:12 < ybit> i would send the svg through bayimg.. but it seems it won't support it 22:13 < ybit> if you wanted to make it even more flashy, not a problem 22:14 < ybit> woops 22:14 < fenn> Vedestin: i don't trust a market to develop technologies in the globally optimal order 22:14 < ybit> http://bayimg.com/HaJcKaabk - there you go 22:14 < ybit> the one with background wasn't centered properly 22:16 < fenn> Vedestin: we still dont have a production-level electric car 22:16 < ybit> can visitors create an account and start editing the main page? 22:16 < ybit> i can get on it 22:16 < Vedestin> we already had production level electric cars 22:16 < kanzure> ybit: yes 22:16 < ybit> well.. i can do a few simple things 22:16 < Vedestin> they just fell out of favour 22:16 < kanzure> ybit: go ahead 22:16 < Vedestin> and development stopped 22:17 < ybit> i don't need to tie myself up just yet, but alright, i'll make a few simple changes 22:17 < fenn> Vedestin: not really, the model-t was the first production car, were there any electric cars being made after that? 22:18 < Vedestin> oh, no i guess not 22:18 < Vedestin> you meant mass production 22:18 < Vedestin> i thought you meant production as opposed to prototype 22:18 < fenn> sure, any joe can slap a motor in a car in his garage 22:19 < fenn> or cobble together some old lab equipment 22:19 < fenn> it just takes a lot of work 22:20 < fenn> pointless reinventing the wheel 22:20 < Vedestin> hmm yeah 22:21 < kanzure> bootstrapping a lab sucks 22:21 < kanzure> I only want to do it once 22:21 < fenn> heh it's easier the second time 22:21 < Vedestin> what sort of lab 22:21 < fenn> any sort 22:22 < fenn> kanzure wants to do gen-engineering and tissue culture 22:22 < Vedestin> oh ok 22:22 < kanzure> and other stuff 22:22 < Vedestin> gen engineering in what? 22:22 < kanzure> brains 22:22 < fenn> mices? 22:22 < Vedestin> yeah, what species i meant 22:22 < kanzure> human, mouse, whatever I can get my hands on 22:22 < kanzure> also some other projects of course 22:22 < fenn> hah i'm sure you'll have no shortage of human subjects 22:23 < Vedestin> humans are plentiful 22:23 < Vedestin> but there are often legal implications 22:23 < kanzure> the simulation of brains, large-scale pharmaceutical searches (i.e., a million tissue samples to test a single drug on) 22:23 < Vedestin> they don't do that do they 22:23 < kanzure> no :( 22:23 < Vedestin> they just give it to a few dozen people and see what they say 22:23 < kanzure> which worries me sometimes. 22:23 < fenn> i'd like to see more research on nootropics 22:23 < kanzure> sure 22:23 < Vedestin> yeah, nootropics would be interesting 22:24 < fenn> just characterization of what's already out there 22:24 < fenn> 'it makes you smarter' doesnt mean a damn thing 22:24 < kanzure> ybit: did you see http://heybryan.org/recursion.html ? :) 22:24 < kanzure> ybit: that's the page I wrote before I wrote exp.html 22:24 < Vedestin> some of them are nothing more than targetting vitamins 22:25 < Vedestin> which may or may not improve brain activity but it probably doesnt hurt 22:25 < fenn> the supplement industry is full of bullshit 22:25 < fenn> i'm sure there's a lot of good stuff there, but it's hard to even do subjective trials when you aren't guaranteed the pill you are taking actually contains what you think it does 22:25 < Vedestin> i pop ginseng and guarana 22:26 < fenn> so, one person's ginseng may not be the same as another's 22:26 < Vedestin> one persons reaction to ginseng you mean 22:26 < kanzure> you need to create your own drugs 22:26 < fenn> no, i mean the pills are not necessarily the same 22:26 < kanzure> or at least know what your brain is before popping pills 22:26 < Vedestin> yeah i don't know how to do that yet 22:27 < kanzure> fenn: ah, that too 22:27 < kanzure> but quantitative chemical analysis equipment can solve that 22:27 < Vedestin> oh, i guess there's that fenn 22:27 < Vedestin> hmm, i might talk to the lab guys and see if we can work it out 22:28 < kanzure> work what out? 22:28 < Vedestin> if the pills are what they say they are 22:29 < kanzure> fenn: http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/projects/amorphous/Progmat/thesis/origami-global.html apparently they have a compiler but no nesting. Would it be practical for me to go write my own BNF, or what? 22:29 < fenn> Vedestin: often they dont even say what's in the pills, is one problem 22:30 < Vedestin> they're not pharmaceuticals 22:30 < Vedestin> they're herbal supplements 22:30 < fenn> that's not any excuse for poor labeling 22:30 < fenn> kanzure: i dont understand, no nesting? isnt it just some lisp functions? 22:31 < fenn> (define tmp-line (fold-onto e12 e34)) <- nesting 22:32 < fenn> there isnt much on that page really 22:33 < fenn> ah here we go (love the graphics :) http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/projects/amorphous/Progmat/thesis/simexamples.html 22:35 < kanzure> hah, that's hardcore 22:36 < kanzure> so please explain 22:36 < kanzure> is it just lisp? 22:37 < kanzure> from the index - "or a manufacturing line that replaces precise mechanical engineering with programming. " huh. 22:38 < fenn> well, it looks like lisp but i dont see where to download the source/software 22:40 < kanzure> http://www.swiss.ai.mit.edu/projects/amorphous/Progmat/ 22:40 < kanzure> hm 22:40 < kanzure> heh, her committee 22:40 < kanzure> Tom Knight. 22:40 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Knight 22:40 < kanzure> I've talked with Tom. :-) 22:40 < kanzure> and Sussman is another interesting character. 22:40 < Vedestin> haha, sussman 22:40 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/quotes.html 22:41 < kanzure> In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6. "What are you doing?", asked Minsky. "I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-tac-toe", Sussman replied. "Why is the net wired randomly?", asked Minsky. "I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play", Sussman said. Minsky then shut his eyes. "Why do you close your eyes?" Sussman asked his teacher. "So that the 22:41 < kanzure> of how to play", Sussman said. Minsky then shut his eyes. "Why do you close your eyes?" Sussman asked his teacher. "So that the room will be empty." At that moment, Sussman was enlightened. 22:41 < fenn> i never understood that quote 22:42 < kanzure> neurons for modeling/rules/programs/processes, not for sending it in blind to any possible problem 22:44 < fenn> but tic-tac-toe has a 'good move' for every possible state 22:44 < kanzure> http://www.origami.as/Info/Oil/oil.php another language - eh 22:44 < kanzure> fenn: yes, so why would he wire it randomly 22:44 < fenn> to see if it can figure out what the good moves are 22:45 < fenn> because you want to send it in blind to figure out any possible problem, eventually 22:46 < fenn> otherwise just write a program 22:46 < kanzure> http://209.85.215.104/search?q=cache:n1q4pojyo6QJ:www.ganymeta.org/~darren/origami2.php+origami+language&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=opera another language worth using - but I don't see a download clicky 22:46 < Vedestin> sorry, what's the relevance with origami? 22:46 < Vedestin> you want to use the same language to...what? 22:46 < Vedestin> fold graphene? 22:46 < kanzure> That'd be cool, but no. It's a demonstration of SKDB. 22:47 < Vedestin> what's that 22:48 < fenn> Vedestin: a program that takes some arbitrary engineering design and turns it into reality (if possible) 22:48 < Vedestin> i see 22:48 < Vedestin> ahh, wiki 22:48 < fenn> you have to specify the design in such a way that the program can understand it of course 22:48 < fenn> so we're trying to find a 'module' for specifying origami 22:49 < kanzure> and so far this sucks 22:49 < kanzure> not a lot of research out there 22:49 < kanzure> no compilers, we'd have to write our own 22:50 < kanzure> unless we email Radhika, I guess 22:50 < fenn> well, a robot that can fold origami is a thesis project in its own right 22:50 < kanzure> this is just for human folding at the moment 22:50 < kanzure> you just blackbox the human away from the problem space 22:51 < kanzure> and then slowly work on it or something 22:51 < fenn> oh, um.. can't we just show a series of pictures? 22:51 < kanzure> yeah 22:51 < kanzure> ok, I guess I'll email her 22:51 < kanzure> but in the mean time, we need a backup plan 22:52 < Vedestin> a robot that can fold origami is a thesis project? 22:52 < kanzure> ironically OpenCores.org might be an interesting plan, but it has no physical, hands-on demonstration :( 22:52 < fenn> Vedestin: yep 22:52 < Vedestin> i would not feed the kid who came to me with that for a thesis idea 22:52 < fenn> Vedestin: if you dont think it's hard, please demonstrate a robot that can fold origami 22:52 < Vedestin> hmm 22:53 < Vedestin> ok yeah, little quick to judge 22:53 < kanzure> eh, for a backup plan we could just do arts and craft - one of those "fold a piece of paper, cut here and here" and you get a foldout thing 22:54 < kanzure> sucks in comparison to an origami machine :( 22:54 < fenn> pepakura 22:54 < kanzure> http://www.tamasoft.co.jp/pepakura-en/ 22:54 < fenn> i'd love to have a robot that could make those 22:55 < kanzure> trying to find some related F/OSS projects for pepakura 22:56 < kanzure> http://hexaflexagon.sourceforge.net/ 22:56 < kanzure> there we go? 22:56 < fenn> http://www.blendernation.com/2007/07/22/creating-paper-models/ 22:56 < kanzure> "A hexaflexagon is a toy that anyone can make using six pictures, a printer and this software! In fact there's some pictures bundled with the app, so you don't even need the pictures! 22:56 < kanzure> After cutting out a shape and following instructions you'll produce a folding puzzle/toy. 22:56 < kanzure> It's got some odd mathematical properties, and can be a dangerously involving distraction. See the bottom of this page for links to more information." 22:57 < fenn> no, hexaflexagon is only one particular shape 22:57 < fenn> its like, a torus 22:57 < kanzure> hrm 22:57 < kanzure> holy shit, I just realized something 22:57 * kanzure goes to check archives 22:57 < kanzure> http://www.google.com/patents?hl=en&id=SL5tAAAAEBAJ&dq=%22Charles+Belsky%22+puzzle&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=FLHBmgPEhS&sig=QOvWKAOahpAsBrjwsms6dFwFcKQ 22:58 < kanzure> the Belsky Puzzle 22:58 < kanzure> that's my great grandfather :) 22:59 < fenn> ahhh i hate google's interfaces 22:59 < fenn> just show me the damn picture 23:00 < kanzure> http://www.google.com/patents?printsec=drawing&zoom=4&dq=%22Charles+Belsky%22+puzzle&id=SL5tAAAAEBAJ&output=html HTML mode 23:00 < kanzure> doesn't make sense to me, but apparently he did foldable puzzles 23:00 < kanzure> oh, how about just a puzzle generator 23:00 < kanzure> 3D shape-making would be preferable 23:00 < kanzure> is the blender option suitable? 23:03 < fenn> its only half of the tool 23:03 < fenn> you'd have to move the faces around manually and add tabs and cut it out 23:03 < fenn> and fold and glue etc :) 23:03 < fenn> but sure, as a generic process i think it's worth using 23:03 < fenn> easier to understand than origami modeling language at least 23:04 < fenn> i dont think i'll ever understand patents 23:06 < ybit> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page 23:07 * ybit was having a tough time with a subtitle :) 23:10 < ybit> i figured someone could modify as needed, but that seems to be more helpful to those new to the wiki 23:12 < ybit> okay, edited twice since posting the link 23:13 < ybit> did one more edit to change spacing 23:13 < kanzure> fenn: Hm. Macross Plus is on tv. Hurray. :) 23:13 < ybit> and i'm through for tonight 23:13 < kanzure> Good anime, IMHO. 23:13 < kanzure> ybit: ok, cya :) 23:13 < kanzure> let me see the edits 23:14 < kanzure> fenn: you have to manually move around the faces? wtf? 23:14 * ybit isn't leaving, just through editing the wiki :) 23:14 < kanzure> ybit: yes, I like the edits 23:15 < fenn> kanzure: dunno actually, never tried it, but i dont imagine 'unfold' can handle highly complex shapes 23:15 < kanzure> why not? it's all surfaces, right? 23:15 < kanzure> hm 23:15 < kanzure> I don't know how it would explain how to put it together 23:15 < fenn> the faces might overlap, and then which faces do you move? there has to be some algorithm for determining which 'branch' to move 23:16 < fenn> its easy enough to explain how to put it back together, just label the edges with a number 23:16 < fenn> a human could figure out the rest of the folding 23:16 < kanzure> ah 23:16 < fenn> otherwise you get into origamiland again 23:17 < kanzure> I think it's worth investigating 23:19 < kanzure> heh, Fernhout wants to acquire http://www.lindsaybks.com/ because of their ownership of the Gingery books 23:19 < fenn> wow http://www.yamaha-motor.co.jp/global/entertainment/papercraft/index.html 23:19 < fenn> want to 'acquire' them? 23:20 < kanzure> it's a company 23:20 < fenn> i know 23:20 < fenn> um.. usually you cant just buy a company 23:20 < fenn> for one thing, its expensive 23:20 < fenn> and the owner probably wouldnt go for it 23:20 < kanzure> then we'll just have to torrent the Gingery books 23:20 < kanzure> seed them, I mean 23:21 < fenn> anyway, the gingery books seriously need to be updated: http://fennetic.net/machines/21st_century 23:21 < fenn> damn i thought that page had more on it 23:22 < ybit> kanzure: do you need help with the logo? 23:23 < kanzure> ybit: I dunno. I'll look into it soon. I remember there being a variable in LocalSettings.php or something about that. 23:23 < fenn> kanzure: you might be interested in this page http://fennetic.net/machines/index.php?Foo 23:24 < fenn> its some of the thinking that led me to skdb* 23:24 < kanzure> "gawd I'm starting to sound like a republican" :( 23:24 < kanzure> yes, I can tell 23:25 < fenn> "you can make it much better from scratch than what you could afford to buy in the first place" is no longer true 23:26 < fenn> but if china trade disparity comes back to normal then it might become true again 23:27 < fenn> still true for the other 95% of the world 23:27 < Vedestin> well, i'd better go to university 23:27 < Vedestin> assessments to do etc 23:28 < kanzure> eh? 23:29 < Vedestin> im going now, goodbye? 23:29 < fenn> seeya 23:29 < Vedestin> ohh, it seems i havent talked for quite a while anyway 23:29 < Vedestin> nvm 23:29 < kanzure> http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?t=101194 23:29 < fenn> Vedestin: "i'd better go to university" means something entirely different in american english 23:30 < kanzure> ' 23:30 < kanzure> You can choose any, but it's obvious that paper model has some limitations. It is hard to make thin pieces, but it is possible (spillikins or spaghetti can help). You shouldn't choose too complex model (but we are going to simplify it nevertheless). And mechanical, sharp models will (of course) look more natural than the organic.' 23:33 < kanzure> hm 23:33 < kanzure> what type of glue would work 23:33 < kanzure> I guess if you have tab flaps it'd be easier with a glue stick 23:33 < fenn> rubber cement 23:33 < kanzure> I haven't used that in years, it's a liquid right? 23:35 < fenn> yes, with a brush to apply it, dries quickly and bonds instantly 23:35 < fenn> also, it doesnt warp paper the way water-based glue will 23:35 < kanzure> I have to admit, the images from the blog are pretty awesome 23:35 < kanzure> http://www.blendernation.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/tank.jpg 23:36 < fenn> "It contains a simple unfolder and an SVG exporter.": http://www.czestmyr.wz.cz/progs/B-Paperizer_04.py 23:36 < fenn> the tank is ok, i'm lusting after the yamaha motorcycles 23:36 < kanzure> hehe 23:37 < kanzure> hey, uhh, from another POV, people might get the wrong idea if we show this as a demo 23:37 < kanzure> blender isn't true CAD. 23:37 < fenn> yeah, that sucks 23:37 < kanzure> this is ridiculously easy to get the wrong idea off of 23:37 < kanzure> so we'll just have to be careful. 23:37 < fenn> it's really strange that there is no cad for linux 23:39 < fenn> gosh reading over old essays is re-enlightening 23:41 < kanzure> how so - reloading old ideas, or just going back over crappy stuff? 23:42 < fenn> just rediscovering the basis for my current motivations, ideas i have now that i had before and forgot 23:46 < kanzure> http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/search?q=star+wars 23:46 < kanzure> hehe 23:47 < kanzure> it's funny, it's mostly kid's stuff 23:50 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/3D_models 23:51 < fenn> well, this part looks automatizable at least: http://www.bertsimons.nl/zenphoto/paperworks/rozemarijn/ 23:54 < fenn> if we dont show 'cad-ish' models then people might not get the wrong idea 23:55 < fenn> obviously some dude's head isnt a cad model 23:56 < kanzure> ah 23:56 < kanzure> makes them think :) 23:57 < kanzure> what software is that ? 23:57 < kanzure> probably a plugin 23:58 < fenn> apparently he wrote tabs/assembly instruction software: http://www.bertsimons.nl/files/bouwplaat.pdf 23:58 < fenn> i see blender.. probably explained somewhere on the site 23:59 < kanzure> impressive