--- Day changed Tue May 20 2008 01:31 -!- ybit [n=u1@unaffiliated/ybit] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:53 -!- fenn_ [n=pz@adsl-75-60-173-29.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 07:53 -!- Topic for #hplusroadmap: http://heybryan.org/ http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/ http://heybryan.org/exp.html | krebs is now servicing the channel. try !help 07:53 -!- Topic set by kanzure [] [Tue Apr 29 18:54:31 2008] 07:53 [Users #hplusroadmap] 07:53 [ fenn] [ fenn_] [ krebs] [ Phreedom] 07:53 -!- Irssi: #hplusroadmap: Total of 4 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 4 normal] 07:53 -!- Channel #hplusroadmap created Sat Mar 22 15:44:12 2008 07:54 -!- Irssi: Join to #hplusroadmap was synced in 38 secs 08:04 -!- fenn [n=pz@adsl-75-60-173-245.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:20 -!- Vedestin [n=Vedestin@d58-111-90-12.sbr3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #hplusroadmap 12:21 -!- nsh [n=nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has joined #hplusroadmap 14:04 -!- Biopunk [n=p@h203n1c1o261.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 15:24 -!- You're now known as fenn 16:14 < Biopunk> oh.. now I recognize you 17:54 -!- kanzure [n=bryan@cpe-70-113-54-112.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 17:56 < Biopunk> hello kanzure 17:57 < kanzure> Hi Biopunk. 17:58 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Sustained_attention 17:58 < kanzure> $1 per mg for the chemicals to make it happen. Soo that sucks. I'm going to make a bacteria to produce it. 18:05 < Biopunk> I wan´t someone else to try it first 18:05 < Biopunk> want 18:07 * nsh mentally fixes that apostrophe 18:07 < kanzure> I'll do it. 18:07 < nsh> yay, now i can read 18:08 < kanzure> :) 18:08 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Sustained_attention#Basal_forebrain_glutamatergic_modulation_of_cortical_acetylcholine_release 18:08 < Biopunk> I was reading about schizofrenia... someone noted that the way it's diagnosed is to match behavour against a list... like if a person has more than 5 out of 8 symptoms then they have it... 18:08 < nsh> schizophrenia is not a medical condition. 18:09 < Biopunk> it's a state of mind? ;) 18:09 * nsh smiles 18:09 < Biopunk> it probably is... for instance bacause it runs in families 18:10 < Biopunk> so there is a genetic component. 18:10 < nsh> the problem is that it's so easy to do what you're unwittingly doing 18:11 < Biopunk> whatäs that? 18:11 < nsh> making an implicit connection between the discrete (specifical, particular) _diagnosis_ of schizophrenia and a similarly discrete underlying psychophysiological 'condition' 18:11 < nsh> if you'd said "being diagnosed with schizophrenia runs in families", it'd be another thing altogether 18:12 < nsh> i remember as a child being told i had "tonsilitis" 18:12 < nsh> and i though tonsilitis was like chicken pox, or the library or blue peter (kids show) 18:13 < nsh> that is, a specific thing 18:13 < nsh> then i learnt that tonsilities just means an inflamation of the tonsils 18:13 < nsh> which can be caused by all manner of things 18:13 < Biopunk> so... 18:14 < nsh> people used to have medical conditions given the same ontological singularity in the past 18:15 < nsh> like "hysteria", or "melancholia" 18:15 < Biopunk> yes... and we are making the same thin g with schizophrenia today 18:15 < nsh> right 18:16 < Biopunk> cause it's not well known what the causes can be' 18:16 < nsh> but the binaryness of "X has schizophrenia" vs. "X does not have it" masks the underlying lack of knowledge 18:16 < Biopunk> yes 18:17 < nsh> while its diagnosis is generally understood to be as clear-cut as something that actually does have strict modality, like chicken pox 18:17 < Biopunk> and it's diagnosed the same way as say pneumonia a hundred years ago... 18:17 < Biopunk> it probably has an ok fit 18:18 < nsh> according to the diagnostic and statistical manual 18:18 < Biopunk> but noone knows what it actually is 18:18 < nsh> a direct lineage from which can probably be traced back to the 'manuals' for determining sorcery 18:18 < nsh> and whatever the terms predating that 'diagnosis' were :-) 18:19 < kanzure> My psychology teacher swerves for butterflies. 18:19 < Biopunk> ok ok... but it's still better than nothing. 18:19 < Biopunk> ? 18:19 < kanzure> nsh: What about the schizophrenic's GIANT GAPING VENTRICULAR HOLE in their brain? 18:20 < Biopunk> people can have that without being schizofrenic 18:20 < fenn> acetylcholine is expensive? 18:20 < kanzure> fenn: lemme check 18:20 < kanzure> I've been looking stuff up on http://sigma-aldrich.com/ 18:20 < nsh> you mean, what about the 'giant gaping ventricular hole in the brain'-patient's posited schizophrenia 18:20 < nsh> surely 18:20 < kanzure> hm? 18:20 < kanzure> Just do a brain scan to see if it's there. 18:20 < kanzure> Kinda something important. 18:20 < nsh> right 18:21 < nsh> but the hole in the brain is something you can see 18:21 < kanzure> hm, they have anticholinesterase-human 18:21 < kanzure> oops, I mean Acetylcholinesterase 18:21 < fenn> kanzure: everything from sigma-aldrich is expensive 18:21 < fenn> look up lab-grade salt 18:22 < kanzure> fenn: aha 18:22 < kanzure> this explains it 18:22 < kanzure> okay 18:22 < fenn> or whatever grade the acetylcholine is 18:22 < Biopunk> no need for the 5 out of 8 list.. there would be something physiological to see 18:22 < fenn> then compare to the price of salt at grocery store 18:22 < fenn> Biopunk: medical doctors use fancy words to cover up their ignorance, it's not your fault 18:23 < Biopunk> that's a load off my chest 18:23 < kanzure> fenn: I've been considering inserting the acetylcholine synthesis genes into bacteria 18:23 < kanzure> and then implanting these into the gi-tract 18:23 < kanzure> however, that's not very controlled 18:23 < kanzure> I am hoping for an iv drip system 18:23 < kanzure> but then you get into infection problems etc. 18:23 < fenn> hmm.. just grow it in a vat and purify the acetylcholine 18:24 * nsh agrees with fenn 18:24 < kanzure> right, but you need to deliver it to the brain in a timely manner 18:24 < fenn> why? how timely? 18:24 < kanzure> 20 to 30 minutes would be nice 18:24 < fenn> huh? 18:24 < kanzure> so iv drip :) 18:24 < nsh> people take choline sources orally, iirc 18:24 < Biopunk> you guys need to go rat-shopping 18:24 < kanzure> hm 18:24 < kanzure> rat shopping? 18:24 < kanzure> you mean mice-shopping? 18:25 < fenn> i've noticed that if you take a lot of piracetam you'll probably get a really weird headache, unless you take an equivalent amount of lecithin 18:25 * nsh nods 18:25 < kanzure> where's Enki-2 when you need him 18:25 < nsh> i was considering ordering some piracetam a while back 18:25 < kanzure> he's very focused on aniracetams 18:25 < kanzure> and other *racetams 18:25 < nsh> what's your experience with it, fenn? 18:26 < fenn> nsh: it increased my ability to discern people's drama/bullshit mechanisms 18:26 < fenn> that's all 18:26 < nsh> ah 18:26 < fenn> also it had some minor grumbly tummy effect 18:26 < nsh> i don't think i need any help with that faculty 18:26 < nsh> through lack of exposure if not competance :-) 18:27 < fenn> how do you manage that? 18:28 < nsh> currently, by remaining on the penumbra of social spheres 18:28 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Fine_chemicals there's not many companies that sell chemicals, it seems 18:29 < nsh> that's probably not the best metric 18:29 < fenn> everyone knows that if you need chemicals you're either a) making drugs b) a terrorist c) a well-funded research scientist 18:29 < nsh> is there a category for chemical companies on wp? 18:30 * nsh nods frowningly 18:30 < kanzure> I guess I'm all three 18:30 < kanzure> what now? 18:30 < nsh> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Chemical_companies_of_the_United_States 18:31 < kanzure> oh, DuPont 18:31 < nsh> ( and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Chemical_companies ) 18:31 < fenn> superkuh pointed me to some forum where they had lists of suppliers, now i dont remember 18:32 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/forums.html 18:32 < kanzure> probably the chemicals and weapons forum 18:32 < kanzure> on roguescience.org 18:32 < kanzure> or possibly the amateur experimentalism forum 18:32 < kanzure> roguesci.org, I mean 18:33 * nsh installs bugmenot 18:34 < fenn> major problem is that procedural knowledge can't be explained (only declarative knowledge) 18:35 < nsh> i don't grok 18:35 < nsh> (you can explain a procedure..) 18:36 < fenn> procedural knowledge is 'how to do it' and mostly learned through repetition 18:36 < nsh> ah 18:36 < fenn> its what makes you twitch in dreams 18:36 < fenn> declarative knowledge is like f=ma 18:37 < nsh> basically, experience isn't transferable as informatio 18:37 < nsh> (at present) 18:39 < kanzure> brb 18:39 < kanzure> still looking for that list 18:39 < kanzure> of chemical suppliers 18:39 < Biopunk> I have a friend who can do things right the first time he does them 18:40 < Biopunk> I've seen this ability be called 'pattern recognition' 18:40 < Biopunk> it's strange to see 18:44 < fenn> Biopunk: often that's the result of actually doing some research before you attempt something 18:44 < fenn> Biopunk: put him on a skateboard and see what happens :) 18:47 < fenn> kanzure: heh THC is listed as an acetylcholinesterase inhibitor 18:48 < fenn> that's only ~$0.014 per mg in crude form 18:49 < Biopunk> fenn: I think 10 years ago he would have learned as much skateboard in a day as others do in 2months 19:08 < kanzure> Biopunk: That's just called focusing & repetition. 19:08 < kanzure> I mean, if you do anything for an entire day ... 19:08 < kanzure> I can read a textbook in a day, and at most a week, if I have the time. 19:09 < fenn> "we really need some product lifecycle management that isn't evil" - bruce sterling 19:09 < fenn> i forgot about disassembly/recycling requirements in skdb 19:10 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrahydrocannabinol 19:10 < kanzure> Weizmann Institute again 19:10 < kanzure> argh, who are these people? 19:10 < kanzure> I think they are Jewish 19:10 < kanzure> Markram comes from the Weizmann Institute. 19:10 < kanzure> 'The Weizmann Institute of Science (Hebrew: מכון ויצמן למדע‎), known as Machon Weizmann is a university and research institute in Rehovot, Israel. It differs from other Israeli universities in that it offers only graduate and post-graduate studies in the sciences.' 19:11 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_and_technology_in_Israel 19:12 < kanzure> 'The school is also known for having one of the world's top electrical engineering faculties as well as the Western world's largest computer science faculty.' 19:12 < kanzure> that school is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technion_-_Israel_Institute_of_Technology not Weizmann 19:12 -!- Phreedom [n=freedom@www.online.dn.ua] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:14 < kanzure> re: recycling, we have that problem *in general*. Like the recycling-plants, they have issues separating everything into categories. Although .. as long as 'fabhat' knows what materials it has, what it has made, etc., then it should be able to keep it categorized. 19:15 < fenn> could you explain in detail what "fabhat" means? 19:16 < fenn> is it a standardized collection of junk, or just any arbitrary junk being managed with skdb? 19:16 < kanzure> fabhat == skdb, but I like to use 'fabhat' to make a comparison to 'redhat' (or debian or gentoo or ...) 19:17 < kanzure> it's the physical 'standardized distribution' 19:17 < kanzure> just like your hard drive is given a specific filesystem and directory structure for the linux-variant operating system, the same with the techshop/factory/machines/tools/etc. 20:16 -!- nsh [n=nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:25 -!- nsh [n=nsh@87-94-155-173.tampere.customers.dnainternet.fi] has joined #hplusroadmap 20:28 < kanzure> http://www.pdfernhout.net/ 20:33 < Biopunk> nsh: tampere? 20:34 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/pipermail/hplusroadmap/2008-May/000530.html <-- An update on attention; I don't quite have the fully synthesized model yet. 20:42 < Biopunk> kanzure: It's not just focusing and repetition I think. Some people seem to have a gift to connect fields of knowledge that don't are not obvously connected. And it seems to be an uncontious procedure, seen from the outside they seem to know that something should be done one way instead of another... it's not repetition. 20:44 < kanzure> The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. -- Albert Einstein 20:44 < Biopunk> (subcontious, not uncontious) 20:44 < Biopunk> heh.. did he really say that? 20:45 < kanzure> Apparently. 20:46 < Biopunk> in any case.. the pattern recognition phenomena(lacking a better word for it) exists 20:47 < fenn> declarative memory can be transformed to procedural memory by practice and repetition, and procedural->declarative by introspection/analysis/scientific method 20:47 < kanzure> I think it's only 'nonobvious' to *you*. 20:48 < kanzure> There's no magic in this :) 20:48 < fenn> i beg to differ! 20:48 < kanzure> oh so? 20:48 < kanzure> hm 20:48 * fenn mumbles something about arthur clarke 20:48 < Biopunk> its a gift... a knid of intelligence 20:48 < kanzure> fenn: I think I lost a few geek points, that's a good call 20:48 -!- nsh [n=nsh@87-94-155-173.tampere.customers.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:49 < fenn> the word 'magic' has been abused even more thoroughly than 'god' 20:50 < fenn> and 'revolution' while i'm at it 20:50 < kanzure> What I mean to say when I say "no magic" is this: "What one human can think, so can another." i.e., I'm exerting the fact that it's actually happening 20:50 < fenn> oh, well, i beg to differ there too - there's obviously some genetic variation 20:51 < kanzure> ultimately you can use your hands and tools to import that variation if necessary 20:51 < fenn> i was watching this documentary on r. crumb the comic artist, and his brothers were also (even more insane) comic artists 20:51 < kanzure> but yes. 20:51 < fenn> the guy couldn't stop drawing, it just flows out of him 20:51 < kanzure> fenn: did you see my notes on the Collyer brothers a while back? 20:51 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/infohoarding.html 20:51 < fenn> maybe.. i read abou them and some tangents 20:51 < kanzure> these were two brothers that both had an obsessive condition 20:51 < fenn> ocd and ocpd 20:51 < kanzure> right 20:51 < kanzure> it's not drawing, but they both had the condition 20:52 < kanzure> and for some reason lived / worked together 20:52 < fenn> love that name.. Lotta Lotass 20:53 < Biopunk> his brother was the one liked to molest women right? 20:53 < Biopunk> he killed himself? 20:53 < fenn> r. crumb's brother liked to pull down women's shorts 20:54 < fenn> and yes, a year after they made the documentary r. crumb killed himself 20:54 < Biopunk> yeah... and crumb liked piggybackriding 20:54 < kanzure> what comics did the crumbs brothers draw? 20:54 < kanzure> crumb would have liked Henry Massalin, then. 20:54 < kanzure> *Crumb. 20:54 < kanzure> consistency :) 20:54 < fenn> buncha weird shit 20:55 < fenn> http://bp1.blogger.com/_K44CMeToWsA/R92rkHWGvZI/AAAAAAAAAF8/Qjvzj6mFgBk/s1600-h/Tommy-Toiet.jpg 20:56 < Biopunk> good advise 20:57 < fenn> i thought the same thing when i saw him piggybacking 21:01 < Biopunk> I was looking through clips with GG Allin a while back 21:03 < Biopunk> the reason was an article I read about punk in China.. they interviewed a young man who was very much into GG Allin 21:06 < Biopunk> "Most people only fantasize about eating their own poop -- G.G. Allin lived that dream" 21:08 < fenn> a true modern pioneer 21:09 < Biopunk> now.. the intresting part is that he had a following... and still has 21:10 < kanzure> Biopunk: there are in fact people who eat shit 21:10 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scatology IIRC 21:10 < Biopunk> I know 21:11 < fenn> 2girls1cup.com 21:12 < kanzure> is that what it is ? 21:12 < kanzure> the freshman in my art class talk about that all the time 21:12 < Biopunk> GG Allin? 21:12 < kanzure> I figured it was just goatse 2.0 21:12 < kanzure> no, 2girls1cup 21:13 < fenn> yep apparently it's much worse than goatse (never watched it myself) 21:13 < Biopunk> I'm not gonna look... I saw it once.. it was made viral by perex hilton 21:13 < Biopunk> (perez) 21:14 < kanzure> fenn: it seems to want registration? 21:15 * kanzure goes back to homogeneous differential equations 21:15 < kanzure> my dad was yelling at me earlier tonight because I'm getting low grades in the calculus 2 class 21:16 < Biopunk> there is a festival south of here... it used to draw around 20000 people every year to listen to music for a couple of days... and for about 10 years there was one guy there who every year... 21:16 < Biopunk> would undress, smear himslf in shit and run around until security rounded him up and hosed him down... 21:17 < Biopunk> he was famous... the talk of the party.. everyone would be guessing when he would appear and what he would do... 21:18 < Biopunk> a guy who used to work there explained that he was extremey popular among the girls there... as he was famous... and that he used to be very well behaved, clean.. good clothes.. everything 21:19 < kanzure> okay 21:19 < Biopunk> ...and that every apparance was very well planned... to get the attention 21:19 < kanzure> I'll tell you if I see him. 21:19 < Biopunk> he was a social hacker 21:21 < kanzure> he was batfucking insane 21:21 < kanzure> I kid. 21:21 < Biopunk> GG Allin was 21:32 < fenn> re: google and internet archive being beacons of hope: "once the person realized that she could get any information she wanted by a simple search, her need to hoard diminished dramatically" 21:35 < Vedestin> GG Allin was a social hacker? 21:38 < fenn> GG Allin was batfucking insane 21:38 < Biopunk> no.. the other guy... GG Allin was fucked up 21:38 < Vedestin> ohh, good 21:40 < Biopunk> of course there are more pleasant ways to social hack ;) 21:45 < Biopunk> Derren Brown is one of my big favourites 21:45 < Biopunk> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lW2yKlNFFuU&feature=related 21:45 < kanzure> fenn: I like to compare Google to a single person. Imagine there was this autist, a man who went through all of the libraries of the world and could remember everything, and he would respond to anybody who asked him a question that was worded similarly. 21:45 < kanzure> fenn: it's kind of a "romantic formulation", but it helps to put it in context 21:45 -!- Vedestin [n=Vedestin@d58-111-90-12.sbr3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit ["User pushed the X - because it's Xtra, baby"] 21:49 < fenn> kanzure: i think you like that formulation because you dislike the concept of AI 21:50 < kanzure> well, I dislike many things about our presentation of ai, but if an ai showed up I'd be happy with it 21:50 < kanzure> Google ain't ai because it's just path-finding and semantic processing 21:50 < fenn> nice cinematography 22:19 < Biopunk> time to sleep.. cu 22:19 -!- Biopunk [n=p@h203n1c1o261.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [] 22:33 -!- ybit [n=u1@unaffiliated/ybit] has joined #hplusroadmap 22:37 -!- Vedestin [n=Vedestin@d58-111-90-12.sbr3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #hplusroadmap 23:34 < kanzure> http://chempedia.com/