--- Day changed Fri May 30 2008
00:00 < kanzure> people?
00:16 < ybit> goodnight friends
00:16  * ybit will be up early reading more on these topics :)
00:24 < fenn> they sell 'merchandise' which seems so narrow and limited there must be some kind of kickback
00:25 < fenn> also lots of 'membership' stuff and 'donate now' buttons
00:26 < fenn> if they're a 501c3 i think they have to publish where the money comes from
00:28 < fenn> '(c) Extension of human-level rights protections to great apes.'
00:28 < fenn> hmmmmm...mm..
00:29 < fenn> slippery sloppy slope
00:30 < fenn> Arrange letter-writing, protests, and boycotts of especially offensive films, television programs and books.
00:30 < fenn> YES i want to DONATE NOW!!!
00:31 < fenn> personally i think "I, Robot" did more to advance transhumanism than transhumanism.org ever did
00:32 < Phreedom> lol
00:32 < kanzure> or Iron Man
00:32 < kanzure> unless you mean the book
00:32 < kanzure> oh shit.
00:32  * kanzure loses one geek point
00:33 < fenn> no i meant the movie
00:33 < kanzure> I went to James Clement, the executive director of WTA, and said that SKDB/OSCOMAK/etc. is the missing puzzle piece to transhumanism.org
00:34 < fenn> i wonder what they consider to be offensive films tv and books
00:34 < kanzure> he wants to get transhumanism.org actually *doing* something, but he seems reluctant to push it
00:34 < kanzure> he says "oh, but it needs money, so we need to do rebranding ... so we've hired a firm to do it for us"
00:34 < kanzure> but the whole point is that it *doesn't* require that much money
00:34 < kanzure> kfjdlafjkalkdjf
00:34 < kanzure> grumble
00:34 < fenn> uh.. kanzure did you just sell us out to offshore coders?
00:35 < fenn> oh he's the webcam guy
00:35 < kanzure> huh?
00:35 < fenn> on imminst.org
00:36 < kanzure> I don't know what you're talking about.
00:36 < fenn> nevermind
00:37 < fenn> quite frankly the 'so weve hired a firm to do it for us' scares the shit out of me
00:38 < kanzure> yes
00:38 < kanzure> me too
00:38 < kanzure> I'm thinking of doing a hostile takeover
00:38 < fenn> i dont know what that is supposed to mean
00:38 < kanzure> these guys are supposed to be asserting themselves at the front of human technological development
00:38 < kanzure> and it's a total failure
00:39 < kanzure> so why not get hostile, move in, set up camp, call the organization a quack, and steal some thunder (the funding thunder, really, there's not much else)
00:39 < kanzure> well, there's also the "meme territory" to claim
00:40 < Vedestin> wouldn't the funding be intrinsically linked to the individuals rather than the organisation itself
00:40 < kanzure> the organization is not funding itself.
00:41 < Vedestin> people don't just throw money at an organisation because of the name
00:41 < Vedestin> not big money anyawy
00:41 < kanzure> well, they do there apparently
00:41 < kanzure> because holy shit ;-)
00:41 < kanzure> I should be rolling in dough.
00:42 < Vedestin> ok, do it
00:42 < Vedestin> but i'm telling you, blazing in to the scene half cocked is a sure way to lose the respect of venture capitalists and donators
00:42 < Phreedom> Vedestin: sometimes they do
00:42 < fenn> http://www.transhumanism.org/index.php/WTA/more/outage08/
00:43 < Phreedom> Vedestin: the trouble is that I never found any :) and always end up funding my activities myself
00:43 < kanzure> yep :)
00:43 < kanzure> it's all diy anyway in the end
00:44 < kanzure> so the fact that they went out to another firm, as fenn says, scares the shit out of me
00:44 < kanzure> they're about self-transformation, not "let others transform you for you" 
00:44 < kanzure> Hrm.
00:45 < fenn> and did he ever say "hey, looks like you need some help with your image, maybe we can help, lets talk"? no, its "thats a good idea, *yoink* and fuck you"
00:45 < kanzure> wait, what?
00:46 < fenn> are they going to help us? seriously, what do you think
00:46 < kanzure> I think it's all of them, it's not just one guy screwing it all up
00:46 < kanzure> at the moment the prospects are slim
00:46 < kanzure> even though ideologically they *claim* they are on the ball
00:46 < kanzure> they don't measure up
00:47 < fenn> i dont think they have enough technical savvy to even explain what we're on about
00:47 < fenn> sigh.. anyway
00:47 < kanzure> so, do we want to do anything about that?
00:48 < kanzure> probably not - it might be more of a distraction in getting our projects rolling
00:48 < kanzure> but at the same time, it seems that 'networking' is the large problem at the moment
00:48 < fenn> i dunno, if they want to play fair and work *together* then it might be beneficial for us to have some kind of "legitimate" backing
00:48 < Vedestin> why don't you just do honours projects
00:48 < fenn> where legitimacy is based on how bland and groomed your website looks
00:49 < kanzure> so it's definitely legitimacy that we're working on?
00:49 < fenn> and calling yourself 'world transhumanist association' hah
00:49 < kanzure> because we could come up with a spiffy website if we really had to
00:49 < fenn> no, its a technical project, but often its easier to convince coders to volunteer for something 'real' than just a pile of junk in some guy's garage
00:49 < kanzure> but I'm not sure if that would get us some of the bootstrapping funding we need (or bootstrapping junk/parts)
00:49 < kanzure> heh :)
00:50 < fenn> i'm falling for it myself, tearing my hair out over gershenfield
00:50 < kanzure> has he replied?
00:50 < fenn> no
00:50 < kanzure> so basically we're the only ones playing fair
00:50 < fenn> i think *.edu has a massive spam filter that blocks fenn@*
00:51 < fenn> excluding my parents, i've NEVER received a reply from any professor on any subject
00:51 < kanzure> so basically we're the only ones playing fair
00:51 < fenn> like wtf are they doing, whacking off in their office all day?
00:52 < Vedestin> yeah, probably
00:52 < Vedestin> or out there doing fund raising gigs all day
00:52 < Vedestin> like greenpeace
00:52 < Vedestin> do you know how much money greenpeace spend on fundraising a year?
00:52 < fenn> greenpeace has this cool boat that they heckle other boats with though
00:52 < Vedestin> so? these guys have a cool website that they look all sauve and tech with
00:53 < Vedestin> make you us look like dorks
00:53 < Vedestin> you us, lol
00:53 < Vedestin> can you tell i didn't sleep last night>
00:53 < Vedestin> not hardly
00:53 < fenn> we dorks, slept deprivationed legion
00:53 < fenn> nobody ever said free-running-sleep was socially acceptable
00:54 < fenn> honestly kanzure i never liked the word 'transhuman' it just sounded like some froofery
00:55 < fenn> intelligence augmentation, sure; physical augmentation, neato
00:55 < fenn> 'cybernetic' is played out
00:56 < Vedestin> can't we just call it terminator
00:56 < Vedestin> i mean really, that's what we're talking about
00:56 < fenn> i like to mean what i say and say what i mean, and 'transhuman' doesnt really mean anything (especially since we cant even define intelligence)
00:56 < fenn> i'm not talking about a terminator
00:57 < Vedestin> fine then
00:57 < fenn> USA is already spending $500 billion/yr on that shit
00:57 < Vedestin> when i get buttloads of funding you can't have any of it
00:57 < fenn> fine then
00:57  * Vedestin goes back in time to find jahn caahnaa
00:57  * fenn goes forwards in time to find john titor
00:57 < kanzure> John Titor, heh, is that the usenet future guy?
00:57 < Vedestin> what? john titor is alive now
00:57 < kanzure> re: not using the word transhuman,
00:57 < kanzure> do we need to use any word at all?
00:58 < Vedestin> he lives in florida
00:58 < kanzure> nah, we don't need a word
00:58 < kanzure> but at the same time, 'word compression' is just something I tend to do naturally
00:58 < fenn> i always get more excited when i see someone saying things i agree with
00:59 < kanzure> so that I can start to refer to certain things via acronyms or shortened versions
00:59 < fenn> jargon-- legion
00:59 < fenn> we are verbose! jargon-- unite!
00:59 < Vedestin> ohh
00:59 < Vedestin> kanzure
00:59 < kanzure> hrm
01:00 < Vedestin> do you know of anyone who's working out a way to quantify learning
01:00 < kanzure> fenn: but how verbose do we have to be?
01:00 < kanzure> I mean, I've had a terrible time doing this
01:00 < kanzure> writing it all out and so on
01:00 < kanzure> there's just too much to cover
01:00 < Vedestin> like, who's actually developing a real mathematical tool to measure how much someone has learned
01:00 < fenn> like # of university degrees?
01:00 < kanzure> F/OSS, GNU, manufacturing and its love affair with money, scarcity, post/pre-scarcity, gift economies, SKDB architecture, python, pyyaml, rdf, semantic web nonsense, wikis, ...
01:00 < kanzure> Vedestin: Hm.
01:01 < kanzure> That's pretty hard. 
01:01 < Vedestin> i'm thinking so that you can compare experimental data for nootropics and such fenn
01:01 < Vedestin> yeah, it's really hard
01:01 < fenn> ah i see
01:01 < kanzure> I don't know of anybody actually doing it. But I know of SuperMemo and the like, but that's just software.
01:01 < kanzure> yeah
01:01 < fenn> not all nootropics are about learning
01:01 < kanzure> that's what the organotypical experiments are for
01:01 < Vedestin> supermemo is flashcards
01:01 < Vedestin> no, they arent
01:01 < Vedestin> nootropics or experimental techniques, that sort of thing fenn
01:02 < fenn> can't you just use intelligence tests?
01:02 < Vedestin> i'm not sure
01:02 < Vedestin> there needs to be some way to index them
01:02 < fenn> i'm no psychologist but i know there are different tests for measuring different aspects of intelligence (learning, pattern recognition, memory etc)
01:02 < Vedestin> this answer won't come from a psychologist
01:02 < fenn> why not?
01:02 < Vedestin> they don't know enough math
01:02 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Neuropods
01:02 < kanzure> uh?
01:02 < kanzure> why do you think I'm doing it ?
01:02 < kanzure> it's to automate the selection process via GAs
01:02 < kanzure> so that these neurotissue slices can be built from 'rules' for learning
01:02 < kanzure> and then we can quantify this by whether or not they are able to solve problems 
01:02 < kanzure> not solving == death
01:03 < kanzure> very easy to see the winners
01:03 < kanzure> woah, did you guys get any of my messages? from "uh" to "very easy" ?
01:03 < Vedestin> yes
01:03 < Vedestin> all at once
01:03 < kanzure> I got the opposite - your messages all at once
01:03 < Vedestin> it's called lag
01:03 < fenn> yay irc!
01:03 < kanzure> "intelligence tests" <- the suck
01:03 < Vedestin> yeah, you need a common index
01:03 < kanzure> no
01:03 < kanzure> you need to not suck
01:04 < fenn> intelligence tests just arent sensitive enough
01:04 < Vedestin> so that you don't have to compare methodology in each new paper you read about how effective a technique or drug or treatment is in learning
01:04 < kanzure> I don't know what a "test" for intelligence would be anway
01:04 < kanzure> since we can't definite intelligence.
01:04 < Vedestin> intelligence has nothing to do with learning
01:04 < kanzure> right, I definitely agree that there needs to be integration in that sense, Vedestin
01:04 < fenn> if the level of drug effect is large enough to show on an intelligence effect it'd be more than just 'i read about this on erowid'
01:04 < Vedestin> or rather, it has nothing to do with how much you've learned
01:04 < fenn> s/effect/test/
01:05 < kanzure> it's not going to be a test, as far as I can tell
01:05 < Vedestin> we need some mathematical minds to work on that model kanzure
01:05 < kanzure> it's not measurable since we can't definte it
01:05 < kanzure> so you have to look elsewhere
01:05 < kanzure> i.e., attention
01:05 < Vedestin> if it's not measurable we might as well be doing arts degrees
01:05 < Vedestin> reading poetry
01:05 < fenn> surely you can define pattern recognition, memory?
01:05 < fenn> synthesis is a bit harder to define
01:05 < kanzure> *define
01:05 < kanzure> right
01:06 < kanzure> hm, we're getting off topic
01:06 < Vedestin> sorry
01:06 < Vedestin> derailed it a bit
01:06 < kanzure> I'm definitely interested in the engineering of intelligence
01:07 < kanzure> and that's why I have the 'staged' strategy or whatever -- an engineered brain with plug-and-play thoughts/perceptions
01:07 < Vedestin> i just see so many people so interested in this field
01:07 < kanzure> which would allow permutation and recombination and selectivity in the desgin of brains, perceptual processes, etc.
01:07 < kanzure> yeah
01:07 < kanzure> certianly
01:07 < kanzure> *certainly
01:07 < Vedestin> but they're hobbled by it either being done from first principles
01:07 < fenn> Vedestin: that's the amplifying power of the internet, not reality
01:07 < Vedestin> or just skipping that part and assuming their methodology is good enough
01:07 < kanzure> those aren't "first principles" ;-)
01:07 < Phreedom> fenn: regarding your coders for a pile of junk complaint... do you really have a useful pile of junk in your gaage? ;)
01:08 < fenn> Phreedom: no, not really
01:08 < fenn> fake it til you make it baby
01:08 < Vedestin> not being done from first principles i meant kanzure
01:08  * kanzure has sudden urge to stab fenn
01:08 < Vedestin> there are no first principles
01:08 < Vedestin> that's what we need to find out
01:08 < kanzure> "Fake it till you make it" is the reason I was forced through high school.
01:08 < fenn> i've been in a coding slump for a half a year or so
01:08 < Vedestin> fake it till you make it?
01:09 < Vedestin> i've never heard that one
01:09 < fenn> its a jazz improv thing
01:09 < kanzure> it means bullshit
01:09 < Phreedom> but sure experienced many times ;)
01:09 < Vedestin> how does that apply to your high school kanzure?
01:09 < kanzure> so I'm wondering if we really have to put together a better presentation of the project
01:09 < kanzure> Vedestin: The parents. They had the say.
01:10 < fenn> well the diagram i drew doesnt really explain the concept very well
01:10 < fenn> its more of a 'how to implement this thing' diagram
01:10 < kanzure> let's go back to the GNU analogy
01:10 < kanzure> Stallman had the advantage of not having to explain to everybody what the hell a 'unix' was ;-)
01:10 < fenn> indeed
01:10 < kanzure> so he didn't need much to complete that part of the puzzle
01:10 < fenn> also, he didnt have to convince everyone that such a thing as a 'unix' could actually work
01:11 < Phreedom> but you don't need to explain anyone what GPL is ;)
01:11 < fenn> GPL won't work for us, unfortunately
01:11 < Phreedom> or open-source for that matter
01:12 < kanzure> so, our 'unix' is really manufacturing overall
01:12 < kanzure> which is really hard to explain since it's always behind closed doors
01:12 < fenn> we can copyleft the design files and the software to make it work, but the hardware is 'property' in the end (i guess it doesnt matter much though)
01:12 < kanzure> in giant factories that nobody knows much about
01:12 < fenn> no, our unix is BETTER than manufacturing
01:12 < kanzure> that's true
01:12 < fenn> it takes these guys months and years to get a single product revision out the door
01:12 < Phreedom> kanzure: you're mistaken
01:12 < Phreedom> hardware is not really secret
01:13 < kanzure> uh? it's all proprietary
01:13 < fenn> it's secret _and_ proprietary
01:13 < Phreedom> yes, but the science behind it isn't
01:13 < fenn> oh really
01:13 < kanzure> give me some citations
01:13 < Phreedom> really
01:13 < kanzure> and I'll go get the papers
01:13 < fenn> science is a mixed bag
01:13 < kanzure> I'd like some papers that do full reviews over manufacturing automation, metrology, materials science, chemical engineering 'unit processes', 
01:14 < Phreedom> at least I've never enountered stuff for which I couldn't find an acceptable description based on scientific works+patents 
01:14 < kanzure> biomining, and uhh tools, bootstrapping designs, and the historical routes of the fabrication of exact tools (genealogy)
01:14 < fenn> tell me how to make a quantum tunneling composite (QTC pill)
01:14 < Phreedom> businesses don't R&D half of your list
01:14 < kanzure> because somebody else did a hundred years ago
01:14 < kanzure> heh'
01:15 < kanzure> look, we know that we can go walk around and pick up stones and make our own composites, our own plastics and our own ceramics from scratch if we had to
01:15 < kanzure> but that's a long, long ass way away from what we're really trying to do
01:15 < fenn> a lot of the things of interest to us have been funded by NASA fortunately, and they make everything available for free to the public
01:16 < fenn> bootstrapping and self-contained manufacturing
01:16 < fenn> it wasnt that long ago a smith could make everything in his shop he needed
01:16 < Phreedom> fenn: probably QTC patents are still pending
01:17 < kanzure> society has already done some of the bootstrapping -- now it's a social aggregation deal, or we just bootstrap it. We can do both at the same time. The bootstrapping -- from scratch -- is just so slow in comparison that we get to try to do this other stuff with society in the mean time.
01:17 < Phreedom> kanzure: you'll end up bootstrapping almost from scratch
01:17 < fenn> oh another one was that refractory 'paint' made out of hairspray, the guy paints it on an egg and takes an oxyacetylene torch to it - doesnt boil the egg
01:17 < Phreedom> especially if you have plans for automatted manufacturing
01:18 < Phreedom> fenn: cutting edge may be a problem
01:18 < kanzure> you know that when I say from scratch I really mean from scratch, as in, cave man discover fire type scratch ;-)
01:18 < fenn> this was ten years ago
01:18 < Phreedom> oh well, you like to bring some obscure things to the table :P
01:18 < fenn> it's obscure because it's proprietary and secret!
01:19 < Phreedom> fenn: of course you can enounter bits of this stuff
01:19 < Phreedom> but overall it's not as bad
01:19 < fenn> you could have a micro gas turbine generator in your PDA if you had that kind of refractory material
01:19 < Phreedom> information wants to be free
01:19 < Phreedom> and wants it so badly that it usually escapes ;)
01:19 < fenn> that's simply a statement of thermodynamics
01:19 < fenn> heat wants to be free
01:20 < kanzure> I want to be free.
01:20 < Phreedom> so go ahead and escape too :P
01:20 < Phreedom> and what does it mean to be free?
01:20 < Phreedom> free to kill others? ;)
01:21 < kanzure> okay, so back on topic
01:21 < kanzure> hm?
01:22 < Phreedom> so I assume the answer is yes :P
01:22 < fenn> what's the topic?
01:22 -!- Topic for #hplusroadmap: http://heybryan.org/ http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/ http://heybryan.org/exp.html | krebs is now servicing the channel. try !help
01:22 -!- Topic set by kanzure [] [Tue Apr 29 18:54:31 2008]
01:22 < fenn> !topic
01:22 < kanzure> I don't know what you mean, Phreedom - if you don't want people to die, why not back them up?
01:22 < kanzure> fenn: the topic was back around something about Stallman or something
01:22 < kanzure> i.e., do we really, really want to invest into a more formal front for ourselves
01:22 < kanzure> by 'invest' I mean time
01:23 < kanzure> especially re: the problems that Stallman got to ignore.
01:23 < fenn> i think this is part of why i wanted an "autogenix technology distribution"
01:23 < kanzure> remember how hard it was for people to convince manufacturers about PCs?
01:24 < fenn> heh i just read some quote about that
01:24 < kanzure> I wonder how people got convinced of 'business machines' in the first place. I think the automated calculators looked good .... because it did the finances and the moneymaking stuff.
01:24 < fenn> So we went to Atari and said, 'Hey, we've got this amazing thing, even built with some of your parts, and what do you think about funding us? Or we'll give it to you. We just want to do it. Pay our salary, we'll come work for you.' And they said, 'No.' So then we went to Hewlett-Packard, and they said, 'Hey, we don't need you. You haven't got through college yet.' 
01:24 < kanzure> yeah :(
01:25 < fenn> too bad apple turned into the devil's little brother
01:25 < kanzure> well, they didn't have an 'open source movement' to back them up
01:25 < kanzure> theoretically we could tap into it
01:25 < kanzure> hey, uh, do we want to abduct Stallman?
01:25 < kanzure> is that the solution?
01:25 < fenn> stallman's brain is crystallized
01:26 < fenn> he wouldnt go for it
01:26 < kanzure> see-through?
01:26 < kanzure> hehe
01:26 < fenn> just stuck in a rut
01:26 < kanzure> that's true, he's basically done
01:26 < fenn> it happens when you get old
01:26 < kanzure> although I don't know about that re: his programming, does he still write anything?
01:26 < fenn> where old = 30
01:26 < fenn> shit i've got 4 years until i'm useless
01:26 < kanzure> meh, that's a lie
01:26 < fenn> 2012 the day fenn becam useless
01:27 < fenn> rofl
01:27 < kanzure> happens to be the year I graduate from undergrad
01:27 < kanzure> if I stay ;-)
01:27 < kanzure> oh, did I give you my updated stance on governments?
01:27 < fenn> "4 years is a small price, she said"
01:27 < kanzure> basically any government that is imposing 'artificial scarcity' needs to be revolted against
01:27 < Phreedom> fenn: so your only hope is kanzure... maybe one day he'll come and help you reverse aging :P
01:28 < kanzure> Phreedom: antiaging is one of my subprojects, as it turns out.
01:28 < kanzure> If we have clanking replicators we can do millions of tissue experiments + antiaging possibilities to test it all out.
01:28 < kanzure> Also, Aubrey needs to double his efforts. Why the hell doesn't he make his machine setups open source etc.? 
01:28 < kanzure> he's getting millions in funding evidently ... grr.
01:28 < kanzure> http://sens.org/
01:28 < Phreedom> maybe that's a condition he had to agree to
01:29 < fenn> kanzure: example of government that's -not- imposing artificial scarcity?
01:29 < kanzure> fenn: one that would see to SKDB.
01:29 < fenn> sweden is toeing the line, maybe, sorta
01:29 < kanzure> or autogenix etc.
01:29 < fenn> piratbyren or whatever
01:29 < kanzure> the govt should only be there to help people communicate and get together
01:29 < Phreedom> yeah yeah
01:29 < kanzure> and even then only to help 'human liberation' cause
01:29 < kanzure> what I mean by that is that the current governments should be making your space habitats, fenn
01:29 < Phreedom> really govt should protect life and freedom
01:30 < Phreedom> the rest it's only going to stiffle
01:30 < kanzure> Phreedom: protect?
01:30 < fenn> kanzure: fuck they should have made them 40 years ago
01:30 < fenn> i shouldnt have to deal with this shit
01:30 < kanzure> but having governments impose various artificial scarcities, like promoting the whole "money" thing
01:30 < Phreedom> kanzure:  you don't want to be murdered, do you?
01:30 < Phreedom> life also extends into ecology
01:30 < kanzure> Phreedom: Nope, but I'm working on that one.
01:30 < kanzure> I'm planning on some automated cloning machines + automated education machines.
01:30 < kanzure> think stormtrooper
01:31  * fenn pictures a guy wearing egg-crates
01:31 < kanzure> right now you don't have much of a hiding option except for earth, but if you had space habitats, who cares? just leave, go to another star
01:31 < kanzure> you shouldn't be your only working copy anyway
01:31 < kanzure> that's just stupid engineering
01:33 < fenn> crackpots come onto luf-team all the time, talking about making new governments/islands etc
01:34 < fenn> the general consensus seems to be that you'd get bombed to little bits within a week, and not even get any media coverage
01:34 < kanzure> fenn: so let's doubletime our strategies; first, we'll do a formal front, try to make something that looks spiffy but at the same time addressing the wide range of possibilities here (ugh), and then implement some strategies for dumpster diving for materials :-/
01:34 < fenn> why dumpster diving for materials? or do you mean that figuratively?
01:35 < kanzure> that's the "from scratch" approach, so it's slightly figuratively -- it's more like figuring ou how to bootstrap it all
01:35 < kanzure> which sucks. even Gingery needed some dumpsterstuff :/
01:35 < fenn> we need to get this guy writing for us: http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/articles/free_matter_economy
01:37 < kanzure> fenn: how much of a bang did he make?
01:37 < fenn> its basically paul fernhout with some realistic strategy
01:37 < fenn> kanzure: its kinda hard to measure the effect an idea has on the internet, isnt it?
01:37 < kanzure> what's his strategy?
01:38 < fenn> similar to skdb, he was trying to make a 'sourceforge' for hardware projects
01:39 < fenn> he talks about "ISRU" in-situ resource utilization, aka dumpster-diving
01:39 < fenn> but also digging in the dirt, refining trash
01:39 < kanzure> yes, but what's his strategy to get people on board
01:39 < kanzure> we can all do trash and dumpster-diving
01:39 < fenn> writing magazine articles i guess
01:39 < kanzure> but that's not fast enough for my taste
01:39 < kanzure> eh
01:40 < kanzure> surely there must be something better
01:40 < fenn> hey i thought you had pages of this stuff, 'how to build community'
01:41 < fenn> oh, it was sorta hybrid between sourceforge and ebay (mfg.com)
01:41 < kanzure> hm
01:41 < kanzure> hold on
01:41 < kanzure> http://narya.net/
01:41 < fenn> "A tavern, with really good napkins"\
01:42 < fenn> i think it stalled because he was the only person working on it
01:43 < fenn> the cad exchange format is really tough too (there is very little open source cad-related software)
01:43 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/creating_communities.html
01:43 < kanzure> oh, scheduling online events
01:43 < kanzure> that's one we've missed
01:44 < kanzure> we could just say "meet online at this location at this time for an active discussion"
01:44 < fenn> yep
01:45 < kanzure> but that feels like preaching :(
01:45 < fenn> rl events too
01:45 < kanzure> " Fake community statistics for vBulletin: make it seem like there's more activity than there really is."
01:45 < fenn> austin is full of weird people
01:45 < fenn> (and apparently some of them are actually good at technical stuff)
01:45 < kanzure> " - Create a fake identity and write from that perspective."
01:46 < kanzure> I suppose that's true. But then I'd need a physical workshop. ;-)
01:46 < fenn> nah that fake stuff is a bad idea
01:46 < fenn> spam is the most hated crime on the internet
01:46 < fenn> best to distance yourself from it as much as possible
01:46 < fenn> just dont publish usage statistics if you're embarrassed about them
01:46 < kanzure> " - Organic content. Let the problem of "advertizing" become the user's, not yours. Many users, means many possible solutions that you hadn't thought of."
01:47 < kanzure> " 
01:47 < kanzure> A few popular sites can spread infections rapidly - Those 40,000 visitors all originated with six email messages and a post on my personal site. Do your research, pick the most relevant and popular sites, and start with them. The ‘long tail’ matters - Only 16% of all visitors came directly from one of those four originating sites. The vast majority of traffic came from over 500 additional, less-popular sites and other sources.
01:47 < fenn> really virgle was a goldmine - i should've been more involved in openvirgle
01:48 < kanzure> I was stupid for waitnig 20 days oto
01:48 < kanzure> *too
01:48 < kanzure> *waiting
01:48 < fenn> oh, one good thing is to have something new for a user/volunteer to look at and contribute to every day
01:48 < kanzure> hm?
01:48 < fenn> hijack the "check your email" gene
01:48 < kanzure> ah
01:48 < fenn> blogs etc
01:49 < fenn> people love to comment them some blogs
01:49 < kanzure> btw, the 'copywritable' stuff is good - always write it for the person to copy and send immediately in the intended purpose, not for the person to rewrite and reformulate
01:49 < kanzure> I don't know why people like commenting on blogs
01:49 < kanzure> it's a terrible interface
01:49 < kanzure> read an article, click 'comments', type in a comment, click, reload the page, go back to the index, find your place
01:49 < fenn> most email is also a terrible interface
01:49 < kanzure> or do some tabbing
01:49 < fenn> ever used webmail? its about the same
01:49 < kanzure> meh, at least with email I have 'look, read, arrow, look, read, arrow"
01:50 < kanzure> yes, I have, but I have to really ask "why the hell use webmail"
01:50 < kanzure> other than when on the road
01:50 < kanzure> any other time it's inexecusable, it seems
01:50 < fenn> what were you saying about 'copywritable'? i dont understand the context
01:50 < kanzure> well, I've realized something
01:50 < kanzure> when I make my announcements about projects and designs and so on
01:50 < kanzure> nobody is going to rewrite it
01:50 < kanzure> nobody is going to reinterpret
01:51 < kanzure> when I posted emails, I realized that what was appearing on blogs, for example,
01:51 < kanzure> was exactly what I had written
01:51 < kanzure> and what I had written, frankly, *sucked* 
01:51 < kanzure> Makezine, as an example.
01:51 < kanzure> I would've tailored it for their site had I known that it would've been a copy+paste thing.
01:51 < kanzure> anyway, daily activities
01:51 < fenn> ah so you sent out a 'press release' and they just published it
01:52 < kanzure> I didn't know I was writing a press release :)
01:52 < kanzure> but apparently that's what it was.
01:52 < fenn> welcome to the 21st century, growing pains and all
01:53 < kanzure> daily activities -> I don't really know. I guess we could do a blog about "how our poject solves yet another stupid problem if only you people would listen"
01:53 < kanzure> but that's the angry old guy approach
01:53 < kanzure> probably not good
01:55 < fenn> this is a cool blog i read a lot (not daily, but could be aggregated if skdb proved useful to him)
01:55 < fenn> http://www.anderswallin.net/
01:55 < fenn> he's into CAM software
01:56 < fenn> (and RC sailboats)
01:56 < fenn> something went screwy with the photo size, not usually like that
01:57 < fenn> at the same time though, blog aggregation is pretty lame
01:58 < kanzure> why isn't there a "shit I've solved world hunger, what now?" hotline ?
01:58 < fenn> um.. dude, it's been solved for 50+ years
01:59 < fenn> why isnt there a "what now" hotline maybe?
02:02 < kanzure> sure
02:06 < kanzure> fenn: if it's all secret knowledge, then what are we to do in the mean time? while we're trying to bootstrap it via stealing garbage + also trying the social routes?
02:07 < kanzure> I think we could, theoretically, map out some strategies
02:07 < kanzure> I mean, it's not like there were many 'manufacturing geniuses' back in the day, most of the processes have to be pretty simple, right?
02:07 < fenn> CLI ftw: http://code.google.com/soc/2008/gimp/appinfo.html?csaid=645C8B60767929AF
02:08 < fenn> a lot of manufacturing knowledge is still locked up in peoples' heads, simply because its so obvious once you try to do it
02:08 < kanzure> trying to optimize, gain access to proprietary/hidden BS, all at the same time => probably a recipe for failure?
02:08 < kanzure> hm.
02:08 < fenn> its similar to the AI learning to speak problem
02:09 < fenn> kanzure: the solving world hunger is a political problem, similar to IP. it's not secret or anything
02:10 < fenn> like, we have all this food which is worth very little to us, but you cant have it even though you're starving, or.. you cant have it because your fucking dickhead government would rather use it as a tool than just give it to you
02:10 < kanzure> http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=44506950346  <-- brings back lots of memories
02:10 < kanzure> http://austinwaldorf.org/
02:10 < kanzure> oh, I always assumed it was really truly because of production
02:10 < fenn> facebook hates me because i won't register
02:11 < kanzure> eh, well, it's the Austin Waldorf School graduation ceremony
02:11 < fenn> 'world hunger is already solved' was bucky fuller's tagline
02:12 < kanzure> Class of 2008: George Black, Christopher Brockett, Hannah Campos, Colin Clark, Gina Daniel, Alexandra Frizzell, Zoe Gioja, Jessica Goldstein, Courtney Graves, Sorcha Grogan, Conor Hall, Patrick Hall, Alexandra Hoisington, Arielle Lewis-Zavala, Gabriela Moats, James Morton, Bridget O'Shaughnessy, Ixchel Parr, Rachel Rodgers, Karl Snyder, Steven Tijmes, Forest Trager, Daniel Winkler, Luke Zasowski
02:12 < fenn> another fresh batch of fodder for the mills
02:13 < kanzure> Forest and I were 'fort buddies' / Star Wars / Warcraft/Starcraft addicts back in the day.
02:14 < kanzure> by back in the day I mean a few decades or something
02:14 < kanzure> I don't understand the learning-to-speak problem
02:14 < kanzure> Chomsky language acquisition stuff ?
02:16 < fenn> the point of cyc was to make an explicit ontology/knowledge base defining all the common day-to-day common sense a child learns automatically
02:17 < fenn> a new employee is like a baby because they dont know this stuff
02:17 < fenn> at an industrial manufacturing job
02:17 < fenn> unless their job is just to press the green button
02:18 < fenn> i wasnt really going anywhere with this, it will become apparent what's missing once we try to use the system anyway
02:18 < kanzure> I don't know what to do to get skdb actually working. I don't like this 'not knowing' thing.
02:19 < kanzure> it's obvious that we're good on our end re: programming, infrastructure, database requirements, etc.
02:19 < kanzure> we have that settled
02:21 < fenn> i'm still a little stuck on what a validation should be validating.. and also how to settle units/requirements
02:22 < fenn> mostly its just laziness/motivational deficiency
02:22 < fenn> distraction, weird schedule and lack of sleep
02:22 < kanzure> multiple levels of validation -- such as syntax, making sure the units can plug together when you're using a class-type-object-thing to specify a jumblement of packages put together to make a new one or something (fire+water => life, in the Aristotlean models)
02:23 < kanzure> as for settling units/requirements, I don't know what you mean by that -- like protocols for yelling at each other over whether or not it's in BTUs or candles?
02:23 < fenn> no BTU into candle is done deal, GNU units handles that
02:23 < kanzure> then what 'requirements' ?
02:24 < fenn> its like interface definitions
02:24 < kanzure> how to settle interference uh, conflicts?
02:24 < kanzure> "conflicts of interest" except something else.
02:24 < fenn> grr stupid manufacturing people havent even come up with stats to compare milling machines against each other
02:24 < kanzure> conflicting realtime-unit-dependencies?
02:25 < kanzure> wtf?
02:25 < kanzure> that's just lame
02:25 < fenn> not conflicts, just interoperability requirements
02:25 < fenn> like your camera needs a USB charger or a wall outlet
02:25 < fenn> i just havent generalized it yet
02:25 < kanzure> okay, that's not bad
02:25 < fenn> its one thing to write it in english, another to figure out how to do it in code
02:26 < kanzure> doesn't sound like an impossible task
02:26 < kanzure> we'll have a class that does input/output for physical plugging or something
02:27 < kanzure> and then we'd have extra scripts to compare these in the 'design compilation process' or one of those validation check stages
02:27 < fenn> i think its just me trying to avert possible problems in the future that we can probably work around in the future anyway
02:27 < kanzure> heh
02:27 < fenn> ther's a balance between worrying and fixing stupid decisions
02:27 < fenn> stupid decisions get entrenched
02:27 < fenn> but worrying isn't actually productive
02:28 < fenn> manufacturing is absolutely chock full of stupid decisions
02:28 < fenn> and they never get fixed because it creates exploitable scarcity
02:29 < fenn> ok so units is a level below interface checking
02:29 < kanzure> we need a contigency plan in case "some rich dude notices us" doesn't work out
02:29 < fenn> "some rich dude notices us" isnt going to work out
02:29 < kanzure> then we're going to have to dumpster-dive
02:29 < fenn> that was never the plan anyway
02:30 < kanzure> by "rich dude" I mean any possible sort of "rich"/charitable organization, or attention-directing source
02:30 < fenn> right
02:30 < kanzure> okay, so I guess I just need to move to somewhere that there's lots of free junk floating around
02:30 < kanzure> and do scrapstrapping
02:30 < fenn> i want to build dumpster-friendliness into the system anyway, because "some rich dude" wont be knocking on the door of everyone else in the world
02:30 < kanzure> sur
02:31 < kanzure> *sure
02:31 < fenn> thats why i'm so adamant against black-boxiness
02:31 < kanzure> what about whiteboxiness? you can look, but you don't have to
02:31 < kanzure> that's what I call a blackbox
02:31 < kanzure> whereas I think your blackbox == proprietary and so on
02:31 < fenn> uh.. er.. i just mean something the computer doesnt have any wiggle room
02:31 < kanzure> k
02:32 < fenn> it should all be open source anyway, so a human could look at it
02:32 < fenn> any thoughts on licensing strategies?
02:32 < kanzure> ignore it
02:32 < fenn> i like the affero gpl
02:32 < kanzure> or if we have to, something viral
02:33 < kanzure> Paul's been pushing for me to license my site
02:33 < kanzure> but I already have a damned robots.txt file on there.
02:33 < fenn> eh? whats robots.txt got to do with it
02:33 < kanzure> it tells you what to save and what not to
02:33 < kanzure> it's one of them there darned 'web standards' ;-)
02:34 < fenn> its an ugly hack, not a web standard
02:34 < fenn> bleh, anyway it doesnt say anything about the legality of re-publishing text and files from your site
02:34 < kanzure> btw, my policy is sharing of course
02:35 < kanzure> uhrm, so
02:35 < kanzure> so if we're not going to rely on 'some rich dude' scenarios
02:35 < fenn> you just need to be explicit about it
02:35 < kanzure> then how would we go about diving?
02:35 < kanzure> I mean, should I map it out on Google Maps and do daily routes?
02:35 < kanzure> there's not much around in my area
02:36 < kanzure> no manufacturing facilities really, wrong part of the continent
02:36 < kanzure> we do, however, have a rock crushing facility
02:36 < kanzure> since there's so much limestone around here.
02:36 < fenn> that's not what i mean by dumpster diving
02:37 < kanzure> "hunting for scraps in the junk yard"
02:37 < fenn> usually, you will see something in the dumpster, think it's possibly useful and take it home
02:37 < kanzure> right
02:37 < kanzure> so I mean a route, as in, going through the neighborhoods and at the good dumpsters
02:37 < fenn> over the years you accumulate large quantities of this crap, and have no easy way to integrate it into your cad systems
02:37 < kanzure> eh?
02:38 < fenn> however, say someone models the inkjet printer guts and their specs
02:38 < fenn> then presto it's immediately 90% more useful than it was without that info available
02:38 < fenn> so, yes i suppose you could look in dumpsters and see if anything's online in skdb regarding that particular piece of trash
02:39 < fenn> roving wifi trash-nomads
02:39 < kanzure> :/ that has to be very inefficient
02:40 < kanzure> but visiting junkyards might be a better idea
02:40 < kanzure> surely they keep more than cars, right?
02:40 < kanzure> or does everybody throw out their microwaves and machinery via garbage cans these days?
02:40 < fenn> good junkyards are disappearing due to insurance liability, general public froofiness, etc
02:40 < fenn> i went to the recycling center where they had this trash can full of cell phones
02:41 < fenn> 'can i have a couple of those cell phones to disassemble and use in electronics projects?'
02:41 < fenn> 'no, we arent allowed to redistribute them because you might electrocute yourself'
02:41 < kanzure> shit
02:41 < kanzure> recycling, you say?
02:41 < fenn> so instead they are going to grind them up into a paste and reclaim the gold in order to buy some fucking calling cards for soldiers in iraq to use satellite phones
02:41 < kanzure> lsdfdlkjadlkadsfklasfd
02:42 < fenn> then they have this heavy-metal laden paste which gets dumped into the ocean
02:42 < fenn> there is like $0.15 worth of gold in a phone
02:42 < fenn> after recycling costs
02:42 < fenn> so.. i dunno wtf they are thinking besides authority mentality
02:43 < kanzure> I need a better electronics inventory anyway, my parts collection is ridiculously low
02:43 < fenn> yep
02:43 < kanzure> I only have a few cases full of resistors, transistors, capacitors anyway
02:43 < kanzure> nothing else
02:43 < fenn> oh, you mean actually getting the stuff
02:43 < kanzure> only one soldering iron
02:44 < fenn> futurlec is cheap and has mostly good useful stuff
02:44 < kanzure> although it's come in handy ;-)
02:44 < fenn> they sometimes take 2 months to ship your order though
02:44 < fenn> jameco is also cheap and good selection
02:44 < kanzure> digikey?
02:44 < fenn> and digikey for everything else
02:44 < kanzure> mouser?
02:44 < kanzure> okay
02:44 < fenn> fuck mouser
02:45 < fenn> oh, digikey has the best prices on AVR's for some reason
02:45 < fenn> i can make some electronics recommendations but i dont know what you're doing
02:46 < kanzure> oh, nothing, just accumulating
02:46 < kanzure> http://www.google.com/search?client=opera&rls=en&q=junk+yards&sourceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
02:46 < kanzure> looks like people thin it's mostly vehicles
02:47 < kanzure> Local business results for junk yards near Buda, TX change location	A.	Ken's Auto Buyer - maps.google.com - (512) 243-5277 - more
02:47 < kanzure> B.	On the Road Salvage - maps.google.com - (512) 389-1119 - more
02:47 < kanzure> C.	American Lung Association of Texas - www.texaslung.org - (512) 467-2534 - more
02:47 < kanzure> HAHAH.
02:47 < fenn> accumulating electronics from junk doesn't seem to really work in reality unless you are really good at electronics already
02:47 < fenn> yeah texans smoke a lot doncha know
02:47 < fenn> lungs are full of junk
02:48 < fenn> maybe it will be easier to junk-source with skdb
02:48 < fenn> "for this project you will need: a resistor, between 500 and 1500 ohm, a capacitor 50-300uF" etc
02:49 < fenn> but common stuff is so damn cheap it's not even worth picking up off the floor
02:49 < fenn> like 0.05 cent for a resistor
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02:49 < fenn> people who shop at radio shack dont know this of course
02:49 < kanzure> right
02:50 < fenn> talk about artificial scarcity
02:50 < kanzure> http://www.dnrec.state.de.us/dnrec2000/Divisions/AWM/hw/hw/salvage.htm Salvage Yard Manual
02:50 < kanzure> 'The Salvage Yard manual was produced to provide guidance for handling or recycling waste fluids, scrap metal, machinery, equipment, and vehicles. You can download the chapters of this manual below.'
02:50 < kanzure> heh, there's a *single* person to email to get more info
02:51 < fenn> i would like to make a 'post-industrial shack' where we sell drill bits, RP equipment, electronics, and consulting?
02:53 < kanzure> what's with the question mark?
02:53 < kanzure> bleh, all of the stuff on the internet sucks ... the junkyards are all for 'auto' stuffs
02:53 < kanzure> I guess everybody is throwing stuff away in stead
02:54 < fenn> btw re: scrap yard manual, this is an interesting story about improper scrap yard practices: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goiânia_accident
02:55 < fenn> "consulting?" because i wasnt sure if that fit the business model
02:55 < fenn> or the ideology
02:55 < fenn> information wants to be free! but you have to pay me to answer your question
03:01 < fenn> http://www.alpha.geek.nz/ARPANET.JPG
03:06 < kanzure> well, Opera crashed, but there's some good links at the bottom of [[Scrap]] on Wikipedia
03:06 < kanzure> g'night
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15:26 < kanzure> http://cosmeng.org/ the Order of Cosmic Engineers.
15:26 < kanzure> but again ... they're not actually *doing* engineering (skdb)
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19:30 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Undergaduate_neuroscience <-- I sent an email to the Director of the Neuroscience Institute at UT Austin about setting up an undergrad program in neurosci
19:31 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Manufacturing_engineering <-- also looks good for UT. Anyway, I'm late for graduation now. Or something.
19:40 < Splicer> good luck with the day.. cu
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