--- Day changed Mon Jul 21 2008 00:01 < kanzure> it's somewhat because I've been too relient on psychobabble 00:01 < kanzure> suppose you have your simulations and somehow the computational capacity as well 00:01 < kanzure> what now? 00:02 < kanzure> you can't say they do anything with your own grammatical identification since you're verging on psychobabble, in truth we don't really know what they will be doing 00:03 < kanzure> this is also kind of the problem with a physical setup as well :-) 00:03 < kanzure> but people have worked with neuron cultures before and have even made them fly virtual airplanes :-) 00:11 < ybit> [Sat Jul 19 2008] [18:30:17] from a user-perspective the functionality can be (1) neurotagging their own issues on the site, (2) MRI data sets studies and 3D reconstruction, whatever, (3) real time streaming server software for neurofeedback of the sort that OpenEEG got into (and that open-rtms needs to get into) 00:30 < kanzure> yes? 00:48 < kanzure> bah, what's the use of having subway on the corner of the street if they're not open during their business hours 01:20 * ybit gets sleep 01:48 < kanzure> oh, here's what neurons are good at - signal processing 01:48 < kanzure> so it's just an i/o problem 01:48 < kanzure> necessitating more bootstrapping 01:48 < kanzure> hurray 02:10 -!- Biopunk [n=p@h99n1c1o261.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 02:18 -!- Splicer [n=p@h3n1c1o261.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:37 -!- Splicer [n=p@h22n1c1o261.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 02:49 -!- Biopunk [n=p@h99n1c1o261.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:57 -!- Splicer [n=p@h22n1c1o261.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:37 -!- ybit [n=h@unaffiliated/ybit] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:08 -!- jm [n=jm@p57B9C6CE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 10:06 -!- ybit [n=h@unaffiliated/ybit] has joined #hplusroadmap 10:12 -!- nsh [n=chatzill@wikipedia/nsh] has joined #hplusroadmap 10:46 < kanzure> http://www.greylodge.org/tracker/gettorrent.php?info_hash=1969497f5ded57bbe9e1df339724c881517c5505 Technocalyps - http://greylodge.org/gpc/?p=1496 - part 1: transhuman, part 2: preparing for a singularity, part 3: metaphysics of technology 11:18 -!- nsh [n=chatzill@wikipedia/nsh] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.82.1 [Firefox 3.0.1/2008070208]"] 11:36 -!- nsh [n=nsh@87-94-146-186.tampere.customers.dnainternet.fi] has joined #hplusroadmap 11:48 < kanzure> it isn't in the trailer 15:37 -!- Splicer [n=p@h124n1c1o261.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 15:39 -!- jm [n=jm@p57B9C6CE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:15 < kanzure> http://groups.google.com/group/biobarcamp/web/upcoming-bbcampers 16:15 < kanzure> I need to come up with a kickass presentation 16:17 < ybit> where's it taking place? 16:17 < ybit> frederick, maryland??? 16:19 < kanzure> Palo Alto, CA. 16:27 < nsh> kanzure 16:27 < nsh> what was that video you referenced about 6-7h ago 16:28 < kanzure> uhh 16:28 < nsh> some sing/trans seminal or something? 16:28 < nsh> *seminar 16:28 < kanzure> yes 16:28 < kanzure> http://www.greylodge.org/tracker/gettorrent.php?info_hash=1969497f5ded57bbe9e1df339724c881517c5505 16:28 < kanzure> desc: http://greylodge.org/gpc/?p=1496 16:28 < nsh> cheers 16:45 < ybit> before constructing regions of the brain, wouldn't it make sense to simulate first? 16:46 < ybit> just looking at me log of course... "Anyway, I want to be able to 'trade' and 'plug and play' those modules of brain simulation or recipes for the construction of regions of the brain or other neural tissues." 16:47 < kanzure> what's the point of simulation 16:48 < ybit> so you don't screw up 16:48 < kanzure> screw what up 16:48 < ybit> aaaah 16:48 < ybit> okay, i misread that 16:48 < ybit> i was thinking brain prosthetics 16:49 < kanzure> while that would be interesting, there's little chance that we will shove that into our brains 16:49 < kanzure> partly the problem is that it's too much psychology for me to handle 16:49 < kanzure> what the hell is attention, anyway? 16:50 < ybit> did you ask to shut me up, because that would take awhile for me to come to some conclusion :P 16:50 < ybit> wikipedia always knows though 16:52 < kanzure> hm? 16:52 < kanzure> I did not ask you to shut up 16:52 < ybit> i know, it was a lame joke 16:52 < kanzure> I'm just saying, there's little that you can do with simulations at the moment since we don't know what attention is 16:52 < ybit> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attention for anyone interested 16:53 < kanzure> that doesn't tell me anything 16:53 < ybit> how so? 16:53 < ybit> are you wanting a biological explanation? 16:54 < kanzure> yep 16:54 < kanzure> I want to do away with the definition/concept of 'attention' but still get similar results 16:54 * nsh wonders what results kanzure refers to 16:54 < kanzure> nsh: the only thing to be grounded to at the moment seems to be stuff in research from http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Sustained_attention 16:54 < ybit> what do you think of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attention#Neural_correlates_of_attention kanzure 16:55 < kanzure> doesn't tell me much 16:55 < kanzure> talks about working memory, but doesn't mention any neurons really 16:56 < kanzure> ' 16:56 < kanzure> At the next lower level, a variety of spacial maps are found in the parietal cortex. In particular, the lateral intraparietal area (LIP) contains a saliency map and is interconnected both with the FEF and with sensory areas.' 16:56 < kanzure> meh 16:57 < nsh> the meme "neural correlate[s] of *" starts to annoy me 16:58 < kanzure> I don't want a correlate, I want the bottom up functionality 17:00 < nsh> loss of function experiments aren't particularly revealing when studying a complex and poorly-understood faculty :-/ 17:09 < kanzure> rogjt 17:09 < kanzure> right 17:09 < kanzure> so it's all sorts of suck 17:09 < kanzure> so obviously my overall approach also sucks 17:09 < kanzure> I was hoping to just come up with some feedback and bioinstrumentation to try to make "defeating inattention" like a video game on autopilot ;-) 17:09 < kanzure> but there's no guarantee of any of it working at all 17:10 < kanzure> and neural tissues or simulations are basically just signal processors and actuators, so you'd need to have some pretty hefty i/o 17:12 < kanzure> fyi: I leave Saturday. 17:12 < nsh> whither?^Wwhere to? 17:12 < kanzure> Palo Alto, California 17:12 < kanzure> know thy enemy or something 17:13 < nsh> oh, right 17:13 < nsh> hope if goes well 17:13 < nsh> *it 17:13 < kanzure> basically it's just some web development 17:21 < nsh> there are primary and auxiliary reasons for everything :-) 17:25 < kanzure> what? 17:28 < nsh> nm 17:30 < kanzure> hahah 17:30 < kanzure> I like how *after* the tickets are bought the parents clue in and start getting angry 17:35 < ybit> hehe 17:35 < ybit> siai, right? 17:35 < ybit> terribly put..but... 17:36 < ybit> perhaps the purpose of building a simulation of the brain is to have precise knowledge of its fuction, allowing all types of interesting things to be done with the information; such as allowing nanoengineers enabling nanobot engineers to know what and where to interface the machines with the brain 17:36 < ybit> grr 17:37 < ybit> such as enabling nanobot engineers ... to.......... 17:37 < ybit> ok, girl talk is getting on my nerves now 17:38 < kanzure> yeah ... 17:38 < kanzure> I'm not going to wait around for nanobots 17:38 < ybit> understanding neurological disorders, and umm... other things 17:38 < kanzure> ... 17:38 < ybit> yeah, that's quite a ways awy 17:39 < ybit> having a better understanding neuro disorders 17:39 < ybit> ..that is 17:40 < ybit> with a graphical simulation, there'd be patterns not recognized before 17:41 < kanzure> what patterns 17:42 < ybit> this is me doing a terrible job coming up with reasons why a simulation would be useful 17:42 < kanzure> yep 17:42 < ybit> good question, i haven't a clue 17:42 < ybit> i could probably scour the web to find some, but it'd take me awhile since i have little knowledge in the field 17:43 < kanzure> you're going the wrong way though :( 17:43 < kanzure> think bottom up, not top down 17:43 < kanzure> "simulations! yeah! great. ok. now what." 17:43 < kanzure> versus "hm, it would be useful if we could grow some simulations or wetware to process some extra information and see which GAs can evolve the best genomes for neural information processing of this sort or another .." 17:44 < kanzure> I'm gone until tomorrow 17:46 < ybit> thanks for the input 17:46 < ybit> later, gl 18:00 * nsh mumbles incorehently, though with a detectable undertone of disparagement 18:22 < ybit> was that for me? i'm quite stupid, but come on, take it easy :) 18:33 < nsh> nah, for kanzure :-) 18:35 < nsh> (well, at a more general annoyance which was evoked by kanzure's statement about evolving genomes) 18:42 < ybit> "grow some simulations"..growing? and i'm curious what simulations he had in mind 18:42 < ybit> anyone know? 19:28 -!- PanGoat [n=pan@ovid.sensoryresearch.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 19:44 < nsh> request: if anyone ever meets Eliezer Yudkowsky give him a sharp kick in the fucking balls and say "don't pretend you didn't have this coming, you pseudointellectual fuck" 19:46 < nsh> wait, that's where you're going, isn't it?! 21:27 < ybit> i'm almost certain kanzure won't do that nsh :P