--- Day changed Sun Jul 27 2008 00:04 < ybit> is kanzure_ a bot? 00:37 < kanzure> No. 00:37 < kanzure> it's my server 01:29 -!- Phreedom [n=freedom@195.216.211.159] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:32 < kanzure> fenn: ruby on rails or django looks like it autogenerates codebases from classes and models of the saem sort that we want to use YAML for serialization 01:32 < kanzure> ignoring the fact that it's used for web tech, eh 01:32 < kanzure> just imagine it not being web and for something else related to skdb 02:47 -!- procto [n=boo@logarchy.org] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:49 -!- procto [n=boo@logarchy.org] has joined #hplusroadmap 04:40 -!- Phreedom [n=freedom@195.216.211.159] has joined #hplusroadmap 04:51 -!- Netsplit over, joins: procto 06:09 -!- Phreedom [n=freedom@195.216.211.159] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:55 -!- jm [n=jm@p57B9DB1D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 09:08 -!- Phreedom [n=freedom@195.216.211.159] has joined #hplusroadmap 12:10 -!- kanzure [n=bryan@adsl-76-229-131-47.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:11 -!- kanzure [n=bryan@76-220-201-251.lightspeed.oshkwi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 14:13 < kanzure> heh, I like these people 14:14 < kanzure> I had something of a 20-depth argument tree going with Steve for a while, and he actively addressed it as the argument tree 14:14 < kanzure> hm 14:32 < fenn> paul stamets mushroom antiviral extract is interesting 14:38 < kanzure> hm, django has no flat file object relational mapper, no flat file database support whatsoever 14:38 < kanzure> otherwise that might have been a plug-and-play solution right there 14:38 < kanzure> http://showmedo.com/videos/video?name=1100000& "create a wiki in 20 minutes with django" 14:38 < kanzure> django is only using things like mysql, postgresql, sqlite etc. 14:39 < kanzure> just need to write it in flat files instead 14:39 < kanzure> there's a python-git module that could be used, I think, but I haven't investigated the architecture yet 14:51 < kanzure> okay, guess django isn't right for it 14:51 < kanzure> it was close, or I'm just terribly confused 14:52 < fenn> i'm still trying to figure out what it is exactly 14:53 < kanzure> ruby on rails for python 14:53 < kanzure> I think what it does is use your models to generate a mysql db and then the input/output pages automatically for whatever you're working on 14:54 < kanzure> back when I used to do web app development nonsense I was always writing pages to interface back with the database 14:54 < fenn> yeah well i cant figure out what the big deal about ruby is either :\ 14:54 < kanzure> i.e., view.php, admin.php, edit.php, all sorts of stuff 14:54 < kanzure> so this just takes your model that you write up, and spits out those pages automatically 14:54 < kanzure> that's about it. 15:38 -!- wrldpc [n=wrldpc@pool-71-174-89-247.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 15:40 < wrldpc> terry grossman is being interviewed here tonight: http://www.ustream.tv/channel/sunday-evening-update 15:43 < fenn> kanzure: i just watched 'django wiki in 20 minutes' and i think i like it 15:43 < fenn> you can really get your hands into the guts, but it's still clean and simple 15:55 < fenn> reminds me of Mason without the suck factor 16:15 -!- Splicer [n=p@h93n1c1o261.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 16:32 < kanzure> okay, good 16:42 < Phreedom> fenn: should also take a look at RoR ;) 16:51 -!- wrldpc_ [n=wrldpc@pool-71-174-89-247.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 16:52 -!- wrldpc [n=wrldpc@pool-71-174-89-247.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:55 < kanzure> stem cells into gametes? 17:02 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/docs/uncertain_future.doc <-- is what we're doing heh' 17:12 < fenn> yay doc files 17:12 < fenn> here's a summary for those of you that hate java and OOO 17:12 < fenn> The Uncertain Future is an innovative probabilistic modeling system where you insert your guesses about variables related to the future of Artificial Intelligence and humanity, and are presented with colorful graphs and statistics regarding how the future might turn out if your beliefs are roughly correct. You can then email these results to your friends, post them on your blog or Myspace. 17:14 < fenn> axe grinding through bayesian probability calculations 17:24 < Phreedom> ah this is for prophets 17:41 < Splicer> It reminds me a bit of a course I took called "Financial evaluation of entrepreneural companies" 17:42 < Splicer> It was about 15 parameters that had to be subjectively evaluated 17:51 < wrldpc_> grossman canceled :\ 18:58 < kanzure> fenn: yep 19:08 < kanzure> http://www.singinst.org/blog/2008/06/23/siai-2008-summer-research-project/ 19:08 < kanzure> "They also hope to create an early version of an eventual, publicly viewable wiki, mapping out the total space of scenarios involving AGI and existential risk." 19:08 < kanzure> publicly viewable wiki 19:12 < kanzure> so the group isn't SIAI, but rather "we're researchers and would like to do something interesting related to what you work on please give us a grant" "okay" 19:27 < kanzure> hm 19:28 < kanzure> Steve is published 19:28 < kanzure> Fierer, N, M Breitbart, J Nulton, P Salamon, C Lozupone, R Jones, M Robeson, R Edwards, B Felts, S Rayhawk, R Knight, F Rohwer, RB Jackson (2007; in press) Metagenomic and small-subunit rRNA analyses of the genetic diversity of bacteria, archaea, fungi, and viruses in soil. Applied and Environmental Microbiology. 19:28 < kanzure> Angly F, B Felts, M Breitbart, P Salamon, RA Edwards, C Carlson, AM Chan, M Haynes, S Kelley, H Liu, J Mahaffy, JE Mueller, J Nulton, R Olson, R Parsons, S Rayhawk, CA Suttle, F Rohwer (2006) The marine viromes of four oceanic regions. PLoS Biology. 4 (11). 2121-2131. 19:28 < kanzure> (Steve Rayhawk) 19:28 < kanzure> that last one: 19:28 < kanzure> http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1634881 19:33 < fenn> this reminds me of 'limits to growth' - perhaps you could contact the club of rome :) 19:36 < kanzure> huh? 19:36 < kanzure> I don't remember 'limits to growth' 19:41 < fenn> it was before your time (and mine) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limits_to_growth 19:41 < fenn> apparently it got eric drexler annoyed enough to prove it wrong 19:41 < fenn> so that's why he started thinking about nanotech 19:42 < fenn> something like that anyway 19:42 < kanzure> oh, it's Meadows 19:42 < kanzure> "Dancing with systems" and "12 leverage points" 19:42 < kanzure> she's with the Whole Earth magazine crowd 19:42 < kanzure> or she was, at least 19:43 < fenn> right, that's how i learned about it 19:46 < kanzure> *at least until she died 19:48 < fenn> death == limit to growth 19:52 * kanzure reminds everyone to stop dying 19:52 < fenn> fools! death is for the weak! 19:53 < kanzure> and the old! 19:53 < kanzure> oops 19:55 < fenn> something seems wrong about them lumping the largest number of deaths into "85 and over" http://www.disastercenter.com/cdc/Leading Cause of Death 1999-2005.html 19:59 < fenn> wow alzheimers killed a lot 20:01 < kanzure> bah, they want to do the calculations in the browser 20:01 < kanzure> in javascript 20:01 < kanzure> methinks this is not a good idea 20:02 < fenn> um, no they don't? 20:03 < fenn> oh you're talking about the siai survey 20:03 < kanzure> yes 20:03 < fenn> if it's all browser-side then how do you get any survey results? 20:03 < kanzure> xmlhttprequest them back to the server 20:04 < fenn> do they want javascript for zoomable graphs and sorting n stuff? 20:04 * fenn would rather just get a nice optional svg 20:04 < kanzure> no, not just that 20:04 < kanzure> I'm not entirely certain how this is supposed to work, but 20:04 < kanzure> here's what I know so far: the user configures up to 40 different variables via the graphs, these are then sent back to the server into some black box that then runs through 100,000 permutations 20:04 < kanzure> of a logic tree for statistical reasoning, and then this data is saved as a session perhaps, and when it's done the user gets to play around with different graphs for the scenario. 20:05 < fenn> it seems a lot easier to write the code for server-side calcs at least 20:05 < kanzure> basically it's "we don't trust people to do probabilistic reasoning" 20:05 < kanzure> yeah 20:05 < kanzure> exactly, but nobody is telling me what these calculations are 20:05 < kanzure> so. :) 20:05 < fenn> i imagine it looking something like a lisp expression 20:06 < fenn> i think writing those calcs will be the hard part 20:06 < fenn> or at least getting it right 20:06 < fenn> anyone can throw some bullshit together and call it statistics 20:06 < kanzure> there's a few whiteboards surrounding me with lots of fancy calculus for differential equations that I don't exactly know how to solve 20:06 < fenn> have you brought up open source considerations? 20:07 < kanzure> licensing of the source code? 20:07 < fenn> there's not really much point to just putting some black box up on the web that you just have to believe 20:07 < kanzure> correct 20:07 < fenn> it's scientifically irresponsible 20:08 < fenn> you can't have a meaningful discussion 20:08 < fenn> this was one of the major problems with limits to growth 20:08 < fenn> they didnt publish their calculations until like 4 years later 20:08 < kanzure> lame. 20:08 < fenn> (the other problem was they got the calcs wrong :P) 20:10 < fenn> just try to make sure they dont use some awful proprietary simulator software ok :) 20:10 < kanzure> fenn: so in general, what Anna, the one who flew me up here and the one who is leading this whole thing, she simply wants ways to reduce existential risk of human extinction, and thinks this is a good step forward 20:10 < kanzure> verbalizing the alternative epistemology is not easy 20:10 < fenn> any kind of world game is a good idea 20:11 < fenn> better if it's meaningful (accurately represents reality) 20:11 < fenn> maybe you could start out with sliders at default values that siai picks 20:11 < kanzure> right, right 20:11 < fenn> or have various futurists' opinions 20:12 < kanzure> for some reason there's going to be a hardcoded limit to the input factors that the users have to variablize or slide or whatever 20:12 < fenn> a sort of meyers-briggs test for futurists :) 20:12 < kanzure> for instance, one of the 40 factors might be "hardware costs into the future" 20:12 < kanzure> so a 40% probability of $5/flop in 2010 or something 20:12 < kanzure> but I don't know why it's hard coded 20:12 < fenn> describing that as a probability doesn't seem right 20:12 < kanzure> probably because the backend model is not automatically extendable 20:13 < fenn> do they actually have code already? 20:13 < wrldpc_> to nublabs! 20:13 -!- wrldpc_ [n=wrldpc@pool-71-174-89-247.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 20:14 < kanzure> nope 20:15 < kanzure> and it's kind of weird trying to write this web app without actually knowing what that model is doing 20:15 < kanzure> or the input/output for that matter 20:15 < fenn> if they dont have code then talking about hard coded parameters seems silly dont you think? 20:15 < kanzure> just inputting a median and bound via point-and-click, and then -- there is no "and then", there's no where to send this data to. No testing server, no blackbox, ... 20:16 < kanzure> yeah :( 20:16 < fenn> well, let me put in a good word for functional programming 20:17 < kanzure> as opposed to OOP? 20:17 < kanzure> :) 20:17 < fenn> right 20:17 < fenn> this is a functional sort of problem 20:17 < fenn> numbers in, numbers out, and all sorts of hell in between that may or may not get calculated 20:28 < fenn> are you familiar with the "model, view, controller" school of software design? 20:30 < fenn> basically it's a way to ensure that you can use multiple different interfaces without lots of hacking 20:30 < kanzure> haven't heard of it phrased like that, but I'm sure most of my work is like that 20:32 < fenn> doing the model calcs in the viewer app would totally ignore all the goodness you get from MVC 20:32 < fenn> anyway it's a buzzword you can point to, so its not just 'wah, i'm the new guy and i dont like it' 20:37 < kanzure> yeah .. I recommended a cgi gateway or something, but it looks like they really want to do it in the viewer app because they don't want to have any server hardware requirements 20:37 < kanzure> ahem. :( 20:37 < fenn> why not.. its not like anyone is going to look at it :) 20:39 < fenn> just write it so you have something to play with 20:39 < fenn> then they can use it or not 20:40 < kanzure> heh 20:40 < kanzure> for now they want a 'slide show of questions for svg" for parts 1-1 through 1-4 in that doc file 20:41 < kanzure> and then this would be some sort of input to some magical calculation from the mathgnome that I haven't heard of yet, and then an output graph will be generated 20:41 < kanzure> so I need some way to separate the interface, the graphing, the svg, user input, and so on, without screwing everything up 20:41 < kanzure> the fact that there's no SVG graphing toolkit kinda sucks 20:41 < kanzure> guess I'll have to start one 20:41 < fenn> there must be one 20:42 < fenn> in javascript? 20:42 < kanzure> http://www.germane-software.com/software/SVG/SVG::Graph/screenshots.html chart::line 20:42 < kanzure> right 20:42 < kanzure> because I want the user interface aspects at the same time 20:42 < fenn> google sez: http://www.liquidx.net/plotkit/ 20:42 < kanzure> like moving the curve via optimization 20:42 < kanzure> yeah, I was looking around google 20:43 < kanzure> a few days ago, don't know if you saw my linkdump 20:43 < fenn> graphing is part of the UI 20:43 < fenn> computers don't read graphs :P 20:44 < kanzure> uhm, crap 20:45 * kanzure still needs to remember to do a googling support tool 20:46 < kanzure> even a simple frame with a list of the queries you've done or something 20:46 < kanzure> 'session tracker' was what I called it in 2006 (yeah, I'm lazy) 20:56 < kanzure> hm, I can't seem to figure out whether or not the point of on a graph can be retrieved in terms of points on the screen, from plotkit 20:56 < kanzure> otherwise converting the drag-and-drop dot thing is going to be a pain 20:56 < kanzure> user interactivity too 20:56 < kanzure> heh, macromedia flash mx for svg would be nice, except one that doesn't cost you a leg 20:56 < fenn> what drag-n-drop dot thing? 20:57 < kanzure> fenn: http://heybryan.org/graph.svg notice the giant dot 20:57 < fenn> the blue/white dot? 20:57 < kanzure> the bigger of them, yes 20:57 < fenn> hey i can move it 20:57 < fenn> sorta 20:57 < kanzure> hurray 20:57 < kanzure> yeah, sorta :) 20:57 < kanzure> it's not supposed to go below y=0 20:58 < fenn> that's neat but it's not exactly robust 20:58 < kanzure> don't read the code, I'm embarrased because of the existing bug that I haven't written 20:58 < kanzure> oh, by no means is it robust 20:59 < kanzure> haven't *fixed 21:03 -!- willPow3r [n=will@cpe-66-75-6-181.san.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 21:24 -!- jm [n=jm@p57B9DB1D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:58 -!- willPow3r [n=will@cpe-66-75-6-181.san.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:09 -!- PanGoat [n=pan@ovid.sensoryresearch.net] has joined #hplusroadmap