--- Day changed Wed Jul 30 2008 00:23 < wrldpc> eh 00:23 < wrldpc> intrigue. 02:30 < kanzure> "the wayforward machine" 02:43 < wrldpc> i got golden helix 03:00 < kanzure> eh? 03:08 < kanzure> hey, uh 03:09 < kanzure> joining #singularity on oftc.net wouldn't be a terrible idea right about now 03:15 < kanzure> anyone awake? 04:43 -!- wrldpc [n=wrldpc@pool-71-174-89-247.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:47 -!- wrldpc [n=wrldpc@pool-71-174-89-247.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 04:52 -!- Phreedom [n=freedom@ip-194-50-167-184.mir.dn.ua] has joined #hplusroadmap 08:47 -!- jm [n=jm@p57B9CF9D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 09:39 -!- wrldpc [n=wrldpc@pool-71-174-89-247.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 10:52 -!- Phreedom [n=freedom@ip-194-50-167-184.mir.dn.ua] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:06 -!- Phreedom [n=freedom@ip-194-50-167-184.mir.dn.ua] has joined #hplusroadmap 12:23 -!- jm|earth [n=jm@p57B9D8ED.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 12:40 -!- jm [n=jm@p57B9CF9D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:54 -!- Phreedom [n=freedom@ip-194-50-167-184.mir.dn.ua] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:45 -!- jm|earth [n=jm@p57B9D8ED.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:48 < kanzure> Hm. 14:01 < kanzure> " You can't possibly get a good technology going without an enormous number of failures. It's a universal rule. If you look at bicycles, there were thousands of weird models built and tried before they found the one that really worked. 14:01 < kanzure> You could never design a bicycle theoretically. Even now, after we've been building them for 100 years, it's very difficult to understand just why a bicycle works - it's even difficult to formulate it as a mathematical problem. But just by trial and error, we found out how to do it, and the error was essential.[5]” 14:02 < kanzure> Where are all of the prototypes for the transistor? 14:06 -!- ybit [n=h@unaffiliated/ybit] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:06 -!- ybit [n=h@unaffiliated/ybit] has joined #hplusroadmap 14:47 -!- jm [n=jm@p57B9FCF3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 14:48 < kanzure> http://www.crunchyroll.com/media-3409/Metal-Armor-Dragonar-Episode-1.html hm, I like the opening 14:57 * fenn mumbles something about heinlein 15:19 < kanzure> the server? 15:19 < fenn> the lunar mass launcher blowing up geological landmarks on earth 15:20 < kanzure> in the video? 15:20 < fenn> it's straight out of 'the moon is a harsh mistress' 15:20 < kanzure> heh 15:20 < fenn> but then they went on some kind of gundam tangent and i dont really see the connection.. 15:21 < kanzure> "Devised shortly after the release of Mobile Suit Gundam ZZ, Dragonar was intended to be both a "starter" series to get new fans into mecha anime, and a potential successor to the Gundam franchise. " 15:23 < fenn> yeah the gundam storyline and science got really complex 15:23 < fenn> minkowski particles and all that 15:24 < fenn> er, minovsky 15:25 < kanzure> right, so my understanding of gundam is incredibly limited 15:25 < kanzure> but I do remember it looking like the actual shows spanned a decade or so? 15:26 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gundam#Animated.2Flive-action_series_and_movies 15:26 < kanzure> 1979 to 2008, ftw 15:26 < fenn> yes but gundam ZZ is probably the best 15:26 < fenn> new stuff gets into sappy gay-boy romance stuff 15:27 < fenn> and i'm just like.. wait a sec, isnt this a war story? 15:27 < kanzure> war on romance 15:27 < kanzure> rawr 15:35 < kanzure> so somehow I've been swooped into this whole "save the world" group thing here 15:36 < fenn> oops, Z not ZZ 15:36 < kanzure> 85? 15:36 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_Suit_Zeta_Gundam 15:37 < fenn> right 15:39 < kanzure> first time I saw Gundam was whichever one had "Flying in the Sky" which might have implied G Gundam 16:21 < kanzure> oh, fenn, it turns out that Blue Brain might actually be just mostly statistical in nature, not an actual molecularly relevant simulation yet and such 16:22 < kanzure> I thought it was more than statistics when I watched Henry's talk, but Steve pointed out that there's technically little evidence suggesting there's anything but the waveforms mentioned around 36min running the system 16:22 < kanzure> erm, I might be wrong on the time 16:28 < kanzure> fenn: oh, here's an idea. let's just convert our pdf's into mpeg 16:28 < kanzure> there's too much processing going on to just normally read the pdfs, so why not convert them into mpeg ? the mpeg players run well enough 16:35 < kanzure> heh, there's a http://fold.it/ team for CASP8 16:35 < kanzure> cheaters :) 16:46 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Low-hanging_fruit_for_human-level_artificial_intelligence_augmentation 17:02 < fenn> "artificial intelligence augmentation" is confusing 17:05 < kanzure> ai's augmentation to itself 17:05 < kanzure> and yes, it is. 17:20 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/docs/Metal%20Armor%20Dragonar.avi 17:33 < kanzure> help, I'm stuck in a loop 17:34 < fenn> priority interrupt! 17:35 -!- wrldpc [n=wrldpc@pool-71-174-89-247.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 17:36 -!- wrldpc [n=wrldpc@pool-71-174-89-247.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:38 < fenn> why is anime the only scifi on television 17:39 < fenn> i mean plausible scifi 17:39 < fenn> not that silly star wars crap :) 17:41 < kanzure> the stuff on tv is significantly worse than star wars 17:41 < kanzure> dorm doesn't have anime-active channels 17:42 < fenn> just as well, unless you like sailor moon 17:42 < kanzure> the closest thing is like "Toon Disney" or "FOX: Family Guy" and so on. :( 17:42 < kanzure> no, not even Sailor Moon 17:42 * kanzure admits to having a collection of Sailor Moon music for some reason 17:42 * fenn admits to reading a vampire romance right now 17:43 -!- kanzure_ [i=bbishop@66.112.232.157] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:44 < kanzure> oh shit 17:44 < kanzure> where'd my server go 17:44 < kanzure> shit shit shit shit 17:46 < kanzure> uhhh 17:46 < fenn> you broke it! 17:46 < kanzure> why didn't I have dyndns installed again? 17:47 < fenn> because your update script was in /usr/bin instead of /usr/local/bin? 17:47 < kanzure> because I didn't have one 17:48 < kanzure> hurray 17:48 < kanzure> it's back 17:48 < kanzure> best stroke of luck ever 17:48 < fenn> did it really just expire in the last hour? 17:48 -!- kanzure_ [i=bbishop@66.112.232.157] has joined #hplusroadmap 17:49 < fenn> same IP 17:49 -!- Endos [n=Endos@194.71.118.70.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 17:49 < Endos> hey 17:49 < fenn> oi 17:50 < kanzure> Endos is someone who should have been in here for a while now but I neglected to mention the channel to him 17:50 < kanzure> that sort of thing 17:50 < Endos> well now I know 17:50 < Endos> it should automatically join when I come on trillian now 17:51 < kanzure> fenn: so I was trying to upload the mp3 http://heybryan.org/music2/%5bFamison8bit%20-%20by%20Momo-i%5d%2023%20-%20Moonlight%20Densetsu%20%5bInstrumental%5d.mp3 17:51 < kanzure> but anyway 17:51 < kanzure> it's not that great 17:51 < kanzure> just since you mentioned SM and I realized I had stuff 17:52 < Endos> brb 17:52 < kanzure> now if only I could get signifier to /connect and /join 18:00 < Endos> back 18:04 < kanzure> Endos: I'm playing around at http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Low-hanging_fruit_for_human-level_artificial_intelligence_augmentation at the moment 18:04 < kanzure> so not much is really happening in here 18:04 < kanzure> and nothing much has been happening all the last week or so because I've been out and about 18:04 < kanzure> but I think I left off with http://heybryan.org/fractal.html 18:07 < kanzure> oh, something I just added to the page 18:07 < kanzure> 'irrelevant); Proposal: mutation passing interface. Probably a language or specificiation of some sort based off of the constraints markup language that I mention in egan.html and maybe humancortex.html and definitely in the conversations from #hplusroadmap.' 18:07 < kanzure> "mutation passing interface' 18:07 < kanzure> MPI 18:07 < kanzure> any laughs? come now .. 18:07 < kanzure> I was proposing a constraints markup language for research to proceed, so passing around mutations between GAs or other applications of some sort, in some formalized manner, surely couldn't hurt 18:08 < kanzure> I think the problem is that if it's truly a good mutation you're not going to be able to capture it 18:08 < kanzure> these were the 'tools on the frontier' for dumping content into skdb methinks 18:08 < kanzure> processing *then* dumping of course 18:08 < kanzure> processing/packaging/etc 18:09 < fenn> mutation ~== patch? 18:10 < kanzure> why, yes 18:11 < kanzure> ok, so that simplifies things a lot 18:11 -!- Netsplit zelazny.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: ybit, nsh 18:11 < kanzure> hm, netsplit? 18:11 < fenn> yep 18:12 < fenn> so, a patch is somewhat different from a module in that the thing being patched has to have some common ancestry 18:13 -!- Netsplit over, joins: ybit, nsh 18:17 < kanzure> oh, that's true 18:18 < kanzure> so there is certainly a difference worth pointing out 18:18 < kanzure> I wonder what sort of framework we should have going 18:18 < kanzure> I keep mentioning 'frameworks' for brains and such, either building them, compiling them from components found over the net and such, but I haven't addressed extensibility issues 18:18 < kanzure> since there's no code basis of it anyway .. extendability seems always kinda tricky 18:18 < fenn> i dont get "some laws of systematics" at all 18:18 < kanzure> systemantics 18:19 < kanzure> it's not directly applicable I guess 18:19 < kanzure> but what don't you get specifically? some of the rules seem obvious to me 18:19 < fenn> some of them seem wrong or just butt-headed 18:20 < kanzure> oh? 18:20 < kanzure> oh, wait, I remember something like this when I looked at them too, a few of them did seem like they were just angsty 18:22 < fenn> well, they should take their own advice and just cut it down to "keep it simple" 18:23 < kanzure> I was hoping I could use some of it as inspiration to ways to describe this so-called "low hanging fruit to ai self-augmentation" 18:23 < fenn> the total amount of human energy in the universe is constant - wtf is this supposed to mean? 18:24 < fenn> (law 3) 18:24 < fenn> "Complicated systems seldom exceed five percent efficiency." wrong 18:25 < kanzure> did you see the bicycle quote yesterday from Dyson? 18:25 < Endos> lol - fenn i'm pretty sure that whoever wrote that just didn't want to quote the bible "Vanity, all is vanity... there is nothing new under the sun" 18:25 < kanzure> basically he was saying that there were a ton of patches to bikes until something useful was constructed 18:25 < kanzure> so I'm wondering how we could trace these patches ... 18:25 < kanzure> hm, I'm sure somebody has written about the history of bicycles 18:25 < kanzure> but I mean the patches for any system in general, like, a random boiler system in the factory down the street 18:26 < fenn> kanzure: yeah, and the transistor probably went through a lot of failed design cycles before it was commercialized 18:26 < fenn> but i dont think it's necessarily a law of nature, but more of a good rule of thumb 18:27 < fenn> for example the first nuclear bomb worked 18:27 < kanzure> isn't that failure-history kinda useful? 18:27 < kanzure> eh, the first one? 18:27 < fenn> yep 18:27 < kanzure> what about the testing and experimentation they did? 18:27 < Endos> (Just so there are no misconception, I consider myself atheist only because being agnostic would require putting too much effort into thinking about a god) 18:27 < kanzure> they only declared it a nuclear bomb when they were ready to test the final design and putting together all of the components 18:27 < fenn> trinity was the first bomb and it worked just as the theory predicted 18:27 < kanzure> I'm pretty sure they had compartmentalized debugging before that 18:28 < fenn> and the first nuclear pile before that 18:28 < Endos> was trinity an implosion device or was it the tube design? I can't remember 18:28 < kanzure> hm, what was that infinityplus story about augmented humans 18:28 < kanzure> Stephen Baxter I think. 18:30 < kanzure> Ted Chiang. 18:30 < kanzure> http://www.infinityplus.co.uk/stories/under.htm 18:31 < fenn> i liked ted chiang's "story of your life" 18:32 < kanzure> http://www.amazon.com/Stories-Your-Life-Others-Chiang/dp/0765304198 18:34 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/pub/irc/Ted Chiang - Story of Your Life.pdf 18:34 < fenn> hmm i think that's the right one 18:34 < kanzure> 158k ? 18:37 < fenn> its not too long 18:38 < kanzure> oh, while randomly browsing fenn's /pub/irc/ I saw a mention of konq again I remembered signifier's suggestion to check out the gtk browser 'kazehakase' whch seems to be another c-compiled browser but it's at least something I missed when going through the ol' list of browsers to hope don't suck 18:38 < kanzure> http://kazehakase.sourceforge.jp/ 18:39 < kanzure> http://kazehakase.sourceforge.jp/screenshots/ss20040828.png 18:39 < fenn> is "Understand" about the two people taking some kind of alzheimers medication that makes them super intelligent? 18:39 * kanzure still wants a perl-based browser 18:39 < kanzure> fenn: yeah, are you asking to see if you remember? 18:39 < fenn> right 18:39 < kanzure> or if you can skip it? it's worth not skipping 18:39 < kanzure> ah 18:39 < kanzure> okaty 18:39 < fenn> it's pretty depressing 18:40 < fenn> can't we all just get along? 18:40 < kanzure> what? 18:40 < kanzure> oh 18:40 < kanzure> right 18:40 < kanzure> two months of an advantage producing that much of a difference :) hehe 18:40 < kanzure> that's kinda what these guys (that I'm living with now) are fearful about though, right? 18:40 < kanzure> "well, if bad ai is first then game over" etc. 18:43 < kanzure> I tried to come up with a way to verbalize my objections to the 'we are all doomed' enthusiasts, and I came up with something somewhat crappy but somewhat not crappy, let me upload 18:43 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/eli.html was sent to someone across the room (since I fail at verbalizing this for some reason -- though less so in text?) so that's why it has strange context 18:43 < kanzure> I know that I'm kinda an island in here about those disagreements 18:44 < kanzure> esp. since I think fenn has some disagreements with my disagreements :-) (right?) 18:47 < kanzure> meep 18:48 < kanzure> maybe it would be best to just say "if ufai versus fai is such a big deal and a wrong move is so big an issue, let's go find another way" but I don't know if that directly maps to the stuff I wrote in eli.html 18:55 < fenn> sounds like you are having fun 19:02 < kanzure> hm? 19:03 < kanzure> you totally glazed over my eli.html argument 19:03 < kanzure> perhaps intentionally? 19:06 * fenn reads it for the third time 19:08 < fenn> are you saying that improving the brain is more likely to yield a friendly intelligence because it derives from a supposedly friendly source? (human mind) 19:09 < fenn> "the main problem with trying to stop the emergence of any technology is that it's an external 'improvement' rather than an internal improvement in your own designs for the extrinsic risks and UFAI" 19:09 < kanzure> are you saying -> no. 19:10 < kanzure> for the moment I think ""if ufai versus fai is such a big deal and a wrong move is so big an issue, let's go find another way [of doing what?]"" is a better way of saying it 19:11 < kanzure> the /what/ I think might be summarized by http://heybryan.org/fractal.html but people can still say "ok, sure, but ufai will still kill you" 19:13 < kanzure> the step required to do fai/ufai is kinda important, if you fail you might get ufai (or no ai, but whatever); maybe there's another way to make sure you don't die and continue on into this 'tech future' and so on, without making such a big gamble, while still surviving even if (u)fai does turn up. 19:13 < kanzure> basically I like to s/ai/natural intelligence/ and just picture Hitler or even myself ... I mean, if you really wanted to blow the planet up, how hard is it to make a nuclear weapon, eh? 19:13 < fenn> i think the issue is that nobody knows where the hard takeoff line is 19:14 < fenn> so a ufai could just materialize out of some more or less unrelated projects 19:15 < fenn> remember charles stross' lobsters 19:15 < kanzure> "but then you just have a giant jupiter brain monitoring everything and becoming creative enough to stop those emergent/materializing situations" 19:15 < kanzure> eh, and all the while we didn't know if that jupiter brain wasn't a case itself too 19:15 < kanzure> erm 19:15 < kanzure> but it's important to note that I'm not so much interested in "anti authority, oh teh noes a dictatorship" 19:16 < kanzure> (it's an important point, but I suspect it's not my central) 19:16 < fenn> i think of friendliness as a sort of golden ratio 19:17 < fenn> the ai should be able to figure it out eventually if we start close enough 19:17 < fenn> but in the end it's only a few extra decimal places 19:18 < kanzure> to me it just looks like a race for the local light sphere or something ... screw ai, just s/ai/any superawesome blackswan/ ... have to be able to isolate the cancer 19:18 < kanzure> grr, I'm not being coherent 19:19 < kanzure> maybe I get to cite the semantic forest issues re: intelligence and how I'm still not certain if it's intelligence or just lots of patches leading up to something interesting 19:23 < kanzure> hm, action potentials == patches? "the minimal information to update the perceptual models implemented in the brain" as Markram said 19:23 < kanzure> perhaps not quite a direct mapping 19:23 < kanzure> i.e., other neurophysiological stuff going on in there of course 19:49 < ybit> hey fenn and kanzure 19:50 < kanzure> you'll never take me alive 19:50 * kanzure hides 19:50 < ybit> haha 19:50 < ybit> how's it going in ¿s.f.? 19:50 * ybit needs to read the above log, brb 19:50 < kanzure> we're all a bunch of aspies sitting around complaining about compiler errors all day 19:53 < fenn> compiler? what's that? 19:53 < fenn> you mean you're using one of those old dead languages? 19:56 < kanzure> back in the old days, symbol lookups costed 15 cents, and a system call? a nickle. 19:56 < kanzure> *cost 19:57 < fenn> real men write their own evaluation loop 19:58 < kanzure> hm, that's an obscure reference 19:58 < kanzure> http://www.google.com/search?num=100&q=%22evaluation+loop%22+compiler 19:58 < kanzure> one of the results is 'Design of a LISP-Based Microprocessor' heh' 19:59 < kanzure> oh, looks like something in interpreters 19:59 < kanzure> http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/965 wondering where this might have come from 20:02 < fenn> it was more or less a lisp reference 20:03 < fenn> i wish it applied to the rest of reality 20:04 < ybit> aand i´m back, shortly 20:05 < ybit> i think my brain exp.ed more damage reading the logs than not ;) 20:06 < ybit> i must say this made me laugh: http://pastebin.ca/1087813 20:07 < fenn> heh that was a netsplit 20:08 < ybit> ssshhh 20:09 < ybit> this is similar to what you are doing there kanzure: http://www.aleph.se/andart/archives/2008/07/the_graphs_of_war.html 20:10 < ybit> not quite, but it deals with doom, war that is 20:13 < kanzure> hm 20:15 < kanzure> http://correlatesofwar.org/ 20:38 < kanzure> hm 20:39 < kanzure> nobody should see references or the bibtex 20:39 < kanzure> unless they absolutely have to 20:39 < kanzure> otherwise the fetches should be mostly automatic etc. 20:53 -!- jm [n=jm@p57B9FCF3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:12 < fenn> "The world can’t end in 1997 or 2029 because it already ended in 1999 when the Day of Lavos occurred."