--- Day changed Mon Aug 11 2008
20:24 -!- fenn [n=pz@adsl-76-248-71-36.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
20:24 -!- Topic for #hplusroadmap: Semi-intro http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXKbzbeipmI http://diybio.org/ http://openwetware.org/ | diy bio tools: http://biohack.sf.net/ | Automated societal knowledge (put it to work): http://heybryan.org/exp.html | Channel wiki: http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/ | F/OSS re: Kurzweil: http://heybryan.org/fernhout/
20:24 -!- Topic set by kanzur1 [] [Mon Aug 11 14:37:25 2008]
20:24 [Users #hplusroadmap]
20:24 [ bkero ] [ fenn ] [ jm|earth] [ kanzure_] [ Overand] [ wrldpc] 
20:24 [ elias`] [ freer] [ kanzure ] [ nsh     ] [ procto ] [ ybit  ] 
20:24 -!- Irssi: #hplusroadmap: Total of 12 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 12 normal]
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20:24 -!- Channel #hplusroadmap created Sat Mar 22 15:44:12 2008
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21:06 < fenn> oblivierra seems like a half-cooked "millenial project" (LUF)
21:07 < bkero> Does it even have a domain anymore?
21:08 < fenn> uh, i mean the atacama desert colony, not the mmorpg
21:09 < bkero> I see.
21:10 < fenn> i'm reading logs from a couple days ago
21:10 < bkero> Google fails me.
21:10 < fenn> http://heybryan.org/chats/chats/agaboogamonger_Mar5th02005.html
21:10 < fenn> probably not all that interesting
21:11 < fenn> one problem with these self-sufficiency projects is they always consider the 'unit' to be geographically located, but the real world provides different environments that are conducive to different activities
21:12 < fenn> and so humanity has ended up with trade
21:12 < kanzure> plastic from silicon or something silly like that
21:12 < kanzure> actually it was from algae IIRC
21:12 < fenn> nothing wrong with that, but you have to consider the reasons behind it
21:13 < fenn> is it worth trying to make your own plastics?
21:13 < fenn> what is the cost in freedom vs the cost in labor
21:13 < bkero> Depends on what your goal of civilization is
21:13 < fenn> (freedom from mail order catalogs and UPS)
21:13 < bkero> If you're content with an agrarian society I'm sure it's not too difficult if you chose the right location.
21:14 < fenn> right now the US is finally taking a look at this sort of question re: oil
21:15 < bkero> The extreme left responds to "We're fucked" reports.  Everyone else tends to ignore them.
21:16 < bkero> Until it starts to very quickly change the country to third world status. ;)
21:16 < fenn> even george W bush says the US needs to break its dependence from foriegn oil, so i wouldnt say it's the extreme left
21:16 < bkero> Then everyone else tries to find some other reason for it happening, because "We told you so" is too embarrasing.
21:17  * kanzure glances at the screen to his immediate left ... still scrolling with papers.
21:17 < kanzure> :))
21:19 < bkero> "We have a problem with our dependency on foreign oil.  Clearly the problem isn't with our land yachts and lack of foresight retarding environmental regulation and > 6000lb vehicle 80% tax treaks.  It has to do with everyone else in the world using more, not us.  This problem has not existed until now, everyone else was just waving flag for the wrong culprit."
21:20 < kanzure> if I was more energetic at the moment I'd go into a spiell about recursive publics and fully surveying available resources before exponentially cancering yourself
21:21  * bkero is using no oil besides what it takes for my good to get to the grocery store
21:21 < kanzure> doesn't matter ... dependency loops.
21:21 < fenn> if i could, i would.. that's why i'm joining the raelians to get the first shot at cloning! :) </sarcasm>
21:21 < bkero> Yup
21:21 < kanzure> dependency-loops, not a statement that they do loop (of course they do, but no)
21:22 < kanzure> we've been able to clone for a while though
21:22 < kanzure> so why join them?
21:22 < fenn> who's we?
21:22  * bkero bicycles and drives an electric car. :)
21:22 < fenn> afaict even the raelians havent cloned anyone
21:22 < kanzure> we = everybody but me, in a lab
21:22 < kanzure> ah, well, people
21:22 < kanzure> ok
21:23 < kanzure> I'm assuming the SCNT diff between hu/sheep/ape is minimal
21:23 < kanzure> the technique has to be roughly the same
21:23 < kanzure> except perhaps chemical prep work
21:23 < fenn> has anyone succeeded in cloning sheep/ape that isnt all old and fucked up?
21:24 < kanzure> http://home.cfl.rr.com/chaosdriven/references.html
21:24 < kanzure> hm
21:24 < kanzure> mice?
21:24 < bkero> Least fucked up big cloned thing I've seen was probably a frog back in the 70s.
21:25 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/transhuman/cloning/
21:25 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/transhuman/cloning/RefSalSCNT.zip
21:25 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/transhuman/cloning/CRi%20SCNT%20Full%20Protocol%20Final.pdf
21:25 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/transhuman/cloning/Enucleation%20Rhesus%20Monkey%20MPEG4v2.avi
21:25 < kanzure> etc.
21:25 < fenn> but.. are they viable?
21:25 < fenn> dolly was as "old" as the original sheep
21:25 < kanzure> check out the zip file 
21:26 < kanzure> lots of awesome references with links to pubmedcentral
21:26 < kanzure> the dolly problem was largely because of tolemerase
21:27 < kanzure> 'Cloned creatures are cloned from diploid cells (2n) and when they divide (those diploid cells) they produce an organism exactly like the cells that they came from. In order to produce Dolly the sheep, it took over 4000 individual nuclear replacements of the cell - 
21:27 < kanzure> to get them all to divide the same. Insert references to the Alien movies. Don't see Alien versus Predator - horrible. The problem with cloning is that it is a very inexact science. In order to get one good Dolly sheep it takes many thousands of attempts.'
21:27 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/school/Biology/notes/output.html
21:27 < kanzure> 'Cholesterol-based hormones (steroid hormones) are rapidly absorbed in muscle cells and many other cells. The positive effect is that they turn on genes for proteins to be built, but the problem is that it wears out the division mechanisms like with Dolly that caused increased aging rate.'
21:28 < fenn> sometimes you really do behave like a HMM robot
21:29 < kanzure> Dolly related:
21:29 < kanzure> http://www.mblwhoilibrary.org/services/lecture_series/campbell/bibliography.html
21:29 < kanzure> http://www.ncseonline.org/nle/crsreports/03Apr/RL31211.pdf
21:29 < kanzure> Who to blame for Dolly: http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/biosciences/anphy/lookup/lookup_role.php?id=NjA0MjI0&page_var=publications&pubs=all&unit_id=
21:29 < kanzure> (his email address and such)
21:29 < kanzure> Wasn't there that dog cloning organization from the early 90s?
21:30 < kanzure> Some rich guy's dog was going to die, so he hired a team of 10 men to clone the bitch.
21:30 < kanzure> quite literally.
21:30 < bkero> haha
21:30 < bkero> There are a lot of businesses out there that preserve dogs DNA to be cloned when it's economically viable.
21:30 < fenn> can i get my dog's brain frozen?
21:31 < kanzure> there was an article on this in the toolkit
21:31 < bkero> It's not the freezing that kills the cells, it's the thawing out :P
21:31 < kanzure> oh, wait
21:31 < kanzure> no
21:31 < fenn> uh, no it's the freezing
21:31 < kanzure> omg omg omg
21:31 < bkero> o?
21:31 < fenn> it's the crystals, man!
21:31 < fenn> oooo
21:31 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/docs/cache-index.txt
21:31 < kanzure> Bioelectric discharges of isolated cat brain after revival from seven years of frozen storage.pdf
21:31 < kanzure> ok, found it
21:31  * kanzure feels better.
21:33 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/Bioelectric%20discharges%20of%20isolated%20cat%20brain%20after%20revival%20from%20years%20of%20frozen%20storage.pdf
21:33 < bkero> SCIENCE!
21:33 < kanzure> :)
21:34 < kanzure> hm, pdx.edu
21:34 < kanzure> that's where nchaimov is
21:34 < kanzure> why isn't he in here?
21:34 < kanzure> oh, heh. he's the one who retrieved the file for me. :)
21:35  * bkero is in portland too
21:39  * kanzure is more worried about the artificial wombs .. cloning seems ok so far, but these damn tanks seem to mutate the cargo
21:40 < bkero> Why not just use real wombs?
21:40 < bkero> Seems optimal for nutrient delivery. :P
21:40 < kanzure> bkero: Suppose you were using a von Neumann probe and flying across the galaxy.
21:40 < kanzure> Assume cryonics isn't working out too well (oops)
21:40 < kanzure> you'd have to have live supplies of women and their "real" wombs
21:41 < fenn> artificial womb needs an artificial heart, glandular system, kidneys, etc etc
21:41 < kanzure> as if the fact that it's attached to women makes them any more real, except in that we currently have them I suppose
21:41 < kanzure> artificial womb is just a tank sort of
21:41 < kanzure> let me get the Kuwabara refs
21:41 < kanzure> close but not it: http://www.uni.edu/~maclino/cl/skinner_baby_in_a_box.pdf
21:41 < kanzure> http://www.amazon.com/Ectogenesis-Artificial-Technology-Reproduction-Inquiry/dp/9042020814
21:41 < fenn> they dont have to be 'real' kidneys, just something that performs the same function. but kidneys seem like an efficient use of space and energy to me
21:41 < bkero> fenn: You merely need to produce the outputs of those. :P
21:42 < kanzure> http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg13418180.400-japanese-pioneers-raise-kid-in-rubber-womb-.html
21:42 < kanzure> there we go
21:42 < kanzure> http://www.amazon.com/Ectogenesis-Artificial-Technology-Reproduction-Inquiry/dp/9042020814
21:42 < kanzure> http://www.babytron.com/
21:42 < kanzure> http://www.geocities.com/placenta_rb/Biblio.html
21:42 < kanzure> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/09/22/neggs122.xml
21:42 < kanzure> http://www.aec.at/festival2000/texte/nobuya_unno_e.htm
21:42 < kanzure> http://www.mindfully.org/Technology/2005/Faking-Babies-Reproduction19may05.htm
21:42 < kanzure> http://www.eshre.com/CM.NET.WebUI/CM.NET.webUI.SCPR/SCPRfunctiondetail.aspx?confID=05000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000029&sesID=05000000-0000-0000-0000-000000002074&absID=07000000-0000-0000-0000-000000014605
21:42 < kanzure> http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg19526146.200&feedId=online-news_rss20
21:42 < kanzure> for bonus points, the second one is the raelians :)
21:42 < kanzure> (babytron)
21:42 < kanzure> More: http://www.nrlc.org/Killing_Embryos/ArtificialWombs.html
21:42 < kanzure> http://www.fictionwise.com/ebooks/eBook1011.htm
21:43 < fenn> i find it curious that the only people publically advocating human cloning are UFO kooks
21:43 < fenn> why is this a taboo?
21:43 < kanzure> hm
21:43 < bkero> Can't we just have organ sacs for the purpose of feeding the fetus?
21:43 < kanzure> bkero: What?
21:44 < bkero> Autonomous sacs of organs for an artificial womb. :P
21:44 < kanzure> fenn: maybe it's because nobody has actually seriously proposed some projects or something ... something nonprofit would be needed methinks
21:44 < kanzure> bkero: Maybe. There's the tissue engineers that we could go abduct and have them make those 'sacs' you're talking about.
21:45 < bkero> fenn: It's taboo because it raises all sorts of ethical questions by people who don't understand science, but question what kind of rights it should have, and if it has a 'soul'.
21:45 < kanzure> I've always wanted to try 'exploded organism emulation' via having mostly biological components except separated by long distances with networking hardware of some sort or another in between, just so that it could all be modular and stuff. ;-)
21:45 < kanzure> why are 'rights' even a question ?
21:45 < kanzure> is that the right question to be asking?
21:45 < fenn> why would DNA makeup have anything to do with whether it has a soul?
21:45 < bkero> Could I clone myself for a housemaid?
21:45 < kanzure> I dunno, could you ?
21:45 < fenn> your clone would grow up just like any other baby
21:45 < kanzure> wrong question ;-)
21:46 < fenn> you can name your kid 'ben' but that doesnt make him the same as you
21:46 < kanzure> hint of angst there ?
21:46 < bkero> True, but could you breed 'subhumans' with less rights?
21:46 < kanzure> there's a scale of rights ?
21:46 < bkero> There used to be.
21:46 < bkero> And there still is in a portion of the world.
21:47 < kanzure> And how do you map genome to this scale ?
21:47 < fenn> they already did that in america in the 1800's
21:47 < fenn> no cloning needed
21:47 < kanzure> I don't know what 'subhuman' means :-/
21:47 < bkero> Subhuman is more of a social distinction than a biological one.
21:48 < bkero> See: Eunechs
21:48 < fenn> what do you call a human with less performance, ie the opposite of transhuman
21:48 < kanzure> "Control, an illusion, and order our comforting lie; Through chaos, from chaos, into chaos we fly."
21:48 < kanzure> human with less performance
21:48 < kanzure> but you see, that's kind of assuming there's a performance thingy
21:48 < kanzure> erm
21:48 < bkero> Could it be a human with less value?
21:48 < kanzure> "better human" and "worse human" just doesn't make sense to me. It's the same reason why GPA doesn't make sense.
21:49 < kanzure> value to *who*? 
21:49 < kanzure> It's context-dependent, remember.
21:49 < kanzure> *you're* the one making the value judgment
21:49 < kanzure> (or somebody else yelling at you)
21:49 < fenn> quality of subjective experience?
21:49 < kanzure> ?
21:49 < fenn> say i'm blind and deaf and numb and hate my life, obviously my subjective experience is of a lesser quality
21:49 < fenn> OR IS IT!
21:50 < kanzure> I don't understand.
21:50 < kanzure> are you asking me to tell you that I'd kill you or something ?
21:50 < fenn> i'm slightly undecided, but i think it's OK to argue that lesser subjective experience means that your life is inherently worth less 
21:50 < bkero> kanzure: If he were that disfunctional, he would be of little value to society, however his quality as a human could be great.
21:51 < fenn> i dont mean value as in what sort of contributions i can make
21:51 < kanzure> this problem space is confusing and sucks
21:51  * kanzure ignores it.
21:51 < fenn> because eventually we will all be obsoleted by AI
21:51 < bkero> Heh
21:51 < bkero> As soon as singularity bootstraps itself.
21:51 < bkero> I'm waiting it any day now.
21:51  * kanzure points out that we're probably the bootstrappers sort of
21:52 < kanzure> if you looked at exp.html for instance.. it's one of the lazy projects we've been kicking around for a few months
21:52 < fenn> kanzure: i got in an argument with an economist once
21:52 < kanzure> how'd you survive?
21:52 < fenn> er, something like that
21:52 < fenn> not a real economist, just someone who thought he was one
21:53 < fenn> anyway
21:53 < fenn> the argument was about how much your life is worth
21:53 < fenn> he said that you could determine what monetary value the person placed on their life by measuring risks and the amount of money put into reducing those risks
21:54 < bkero> You know you're right that my eyes sort of glazed over when reading that
21:54 < bkero> Er, I'm not entirely sure that's accurate.
21:54 < bkero> That's assuming risk reduction is the primary goal
21:54 < fenn> say you are a thug, with 50% chance of getting killed tomorrow
21:55  * kanzure hates the concept of 'risk'
21:55 < kanzure> procto knows :)
21:55 < fenn> you could buy a gun for $100 that would reduce your risk of dying by 50%
21:55 < kanzure> and probability
21:56 < fenn> you could buy another gun for $1000 that would reduce your risk by 99%
21:56 < fenn> so, assuming you have $1000 and dont buy the fancy gun, you can estimate the value you put on your life at somewhere between $50 and $1000 right?
21:57 < fenn> blah
21:57 < bkero> That's not even fallacious, that's just dumb.
21:58 < fenn> it's dumb because people have an invincibility bias, they dont believe they can die
21:58 < bkero> fenn: I don't know about you, but I'm not going to die.
21:58 < fenn> well, i'm not dead yet am i?
21:58 < bkero> But do you think you will?
21:58 < fenn> i dont know, i'm death-agnostic
21:59 < bkero> http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/aubrey_de_grey_says_we_can_avoid_aging.html
21:59 < fenn> yeah yeahh your're preaching to the choir
21:59 < bkero> :P
21:59 < fenn> anyway the whole point of this was that weiwe should value human life insttrinissically
22:00 < fenn> intrinsically*
22:01 < fenn> but then saying "human life" is sort of arbitrary, so i've generalized it to subjective experience
22:01 < fenn> for all the fuzzy bunnies and whales and dolphins and robots
22:01 < bkero> Although I have to say that in an appropriately welfared society, we wouldn't have to put any surmountable amount of money into life extension.
22:05 < fenn> "I don't worry about the ethical problems. I just want to rescue the fetus where it is impossible to be rescued by present treatment"
22:05 < fenn> sad state of affairs
22:06 < fenn> hey kanzure we could lobby conservative anti-abortionists to develop artificial wombs, the rationale being that unwilling mothers wouldnt have to kill their fetuses
22:07 < bkero> Is the state going to pick up the bill for them? :P
22:08 < kanzure> not bad
22:08 < fenn> no, the rich religious nutjobs would
22:08  * kanzure recently met Aubrey in person :)
22:08 < bkero> You can't get rich religious nutjobs to pay for anything besides their 44,000 sqft creationist museum in kansas.
22:09 < fenn> bkero: then they could see the reality of the cost of bearing a child, and the guilt would be on them for not contributing, see?
22:09 < bkero> Guilting rich republicans, I like it.
22:09 < fenn> "you murderer, sending this innocent fetus to its death!"
22:09 < bkero> Of course they're simply going to claim 'its not a child'
22:09 < fenn> now if only i could figure out how to apply this to space development
22:09 < fenn> but they can't claim it's not a child
22:10  * bkero met burt rutan 3 years ago. :)
22:10 < bkero> fenn: They could claim it's not human because it lacks a soul(somehow)
22:10 < kanzure> who's burt?
22:10 < kanzure> the mothers would argue otherwise
22:10 < fenn> bkero: its not a cloned fetus, just a regular aborted (or would-be aborted) fetus
22:10 < bkero> He designs ultralight aircraft, and spaceshipone
22:10 < fenn> raised in an artificial womb
22:11 < kanzure> bkero: ultralight, like scramjets? http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Scramjets
22:11 < fenn> not ultralights, homebuilt small airplanes
22:11 < fenn> you need a pilot's license of some sort to fly the *EZ
22:11 < bkero> fenn: I get that, but they could claim that it has neither a nurturing mother or father, it's a humunculous
22:11 < fenn> wtf the whole point of pro-life is that the fetus is worth saving
22:12 < fenn> the mother wants to kill it
22:12 < bkero> My ex girlfriends father has an ultralight in his garage.  I helped him cut the styrofoam, vacuum bag it, and assemble it.
22:13 < bkero> We built one of these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-EZ
22:14 < fenn> cool, that's my favorite homebuilt design i think
22:14 < bkero> Hehe, it's what john denver died in
22:14 < bkero> Burt Rutan basically wrote ALL the books on experimental aircraft.
22:14 < fenn> yeah i read the report, it was stupid
22:14 < bkero> I'm a member of 2 EAAs.  The Electric Auto Association, and the Experimental Aircraft Association
22:17 < kanzure> bkero: I'll be over in 10 hours
22:17 < bkero> The aerodynamics of the Long-EZ are such that it's the same as pushing a 2sqft block through the air
22:17  * kanzure wants to see.
22:17 < bkero> haha
22:18 < bkero> I don't actually own the plane.  I'm way too fucking poor.  I'm still getting a pilots license.
22:18 < fenn> i have a hard time understanding why planes cost so much
22:18 < fenn> they're very simple
22:19 < bkero> Because they're made of composites, which don't have cheap manufacturing processes.
22:19 < bkero> You can roll steel and stamp aluminum
22:19 < fenn> that's not true, cessna's are made of stamped aluminum and are just as expensive
22:19 < bkero> You have to mold styrofoam then lay fiberglass on both sides of that, then epoxy it, then seal it in a bag, and run a vacuum to remove excess epoxy.
22:20 < bkero> Cessnas also demand a price premium, you pay for their product marketing.
22:20 < bkero> They're also not 'experimental'.
22:20 < fenn> experimental or not, airplanes are expensive
22:21 < bkero> Yea, those long-ez's are $35000 :/
22:21 < bkero> Because they require a substantial bit of engineering? :P
22:22 < bkero> A piece of shit will roll, but a piece of shit won't fly.  That's why engineering on planes is infinitely better than cars.
22:22 < fenn> $35k isnt too bad, that's about what someone would pay for a car
22:22 < bkero> Finished in 1985
22:22 < bkero> Then again, nobody has built substantially better planes since then. :/
22:22 < bkero> For fuel mileage, the Vari-EZ still holds the record.
22:23 < fenn> but i'm talking to these aero-engineers who make $100k/yr and can't afford to fly
22:23 < bkero> They use fucking air-cooled Beetle engines.
22:23 < bkero> (and get better mileage than the beetle)
22:24  * fenn ponders a turbo diesel homebuilt
22:24 < bkero> airplane or car?
22:24 < fenn> airplane
22:24 < fenn> i'm interested in using a turbo diesel as the generator for a serial hybrid car tho
22:25 < bkero> http://www.deltahawkengines.com/journa00.shtml
22:25 < bkero> Already been done
22:25 < fenn> hard to find small high efficiency diesel engines for cheap-ish though
22:25 < bkero> http://www.evxteam.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2&Itemid=25
22:25 < bkero> Not if you tear them out of old VWs. ;)
22:26 < bkero> Electric motors are up to 98% efficient.  Gasoline/diesel motors are up to 26%
22:26  * kanzure sleeps
22:26 < fenn> VW engine is too big
22:26 < fenn> big engine == car bullshit
22:26 < fenn> you end up designing the car around the engine
22:26 < bkero> Riding lawn mower?
22:28 < fenn> hmm that "hybrid supercar".. what were they thinking? couldnt afford supercapacitors so they tried to use lead acids instead?
22:28 < bkero> Supercapacitors don't story energy for very long. :/
22:28 < bkero> They dissapate really fast.
22:29 < fenn> it says their batteries didnt provide enough power
22:29 < bkero> lol
22:29 < procto> kanzure: I don't hate concepts :> though there are concepts that I hate seeing implemented
22:29 < bkero> Lead acid batteries are really good at discharging TONS of amps at once.
22:30 < fenn> but not enough for this supercar, apparently
22:30 < bkero> The only thing that's gotten close is LiFePO3, and that's about 12x as expensive.
22:30 < fenn> what about NiCd?
22:30 < bkero> Nope
22:30 < fenn> seems to me that batteries shouldn't be used for power buffering
22:31 < bkero> NiCads discharge at about 0.75C.  That means if it's a 12v 2000mAh battery, it the maximum that it can discharge is 24W
22:31 < bkero> Er, 24 * 0.75
22:31 < bkero> Batteries are used for power storage, capacitors are used for energy storage.
22:32 < bkero> Capacitors discharge on their own significantly faster though.
22:32 < fenn> uh, express that in SI units please
22:32 < fenn> "Batteries are used for power storage, capacitors are used for energy storage."
22:33 < bkero> Capacitors are great at being charged very fast with a lot of electricity.  They can also discharge equally quickly, but they don't store it that well.  Think of how you're supposed to wait 5 seconds after you shut your computer off to turn it back on.  That's the caps discharging themselves.
22:34 < bkero> Batteries are the exact opposite.
22:34 < fenn> that's a resistor across the capacitor terminals dissipating the energy stored in the capacitor, it's a safety feature
22:34 < fenn> the capacitor doesn't have any internal leakage (not nearly as much as a battery anyway)
22:35 < bkero> But if I go and charge a capacitor to however many farads it's going to hold, and measure the wattage in there after 1 second, it's going to be significantly higher than 1 minute.
22:35 < fenn> not true
22:36 < fenn> and your units are all wrong
22:36 < bkero> Which unit?
22:36 < bkero> (s)
22:36 < fenn> if you charge a 1 farad capacitor to 12V it will stay at 12V for a very long time
22:37 < bkero> But if you put a known load on it, it can sustain the load longer if it was just charged
22:38 < fenn> if it was charged recently you mean?
22:38 < bkero> yes
22:38 < fenn> basically you are arguing that the equivalent parallel resistance of a battery is higher than a capacitor
22:39 < fenn> why oh why is this data so hard to find
22:42  * bkero shrugs.  I've had this conversation before with people asking about superconductors as a remedy to the problem of charging electric cars.
22:43 < fenn> "The self-discharge of the supercapacitor is substantially higher than that of the electro-chemical battery. Typically, the voltage of the supercapacitor with an organic electrolyte drops from full charge to the 30 percent level in as little as 10 hours.
22:43 < fenn> Other supercapacitors can retain the charged energy longer. With these designs, the capacity drops from full charge to 85 percent in 10 days. In 30 days, the voltage drops to roughly 65 percent and to 40 percent after 60 days."
22:43 < fenn> so, i was wrong. sorry 
22:43 < bkero> S'no problem
22:43 < bkero> I'm surprised to see it that high though.
22:43 < bkero> THey'd be really good in electric dragsters. :)
22:44 < bkero> "Look how many amps i can dump!"
22:44 < bkero> I've thought of picking up some supercapacitors, they're about $200 on digikey iirc
22:46 < bkero> 100F 2.7V are $15.
22:46 < bkero> I'd need 14 of them to power my bicycle
22:47 < fenn> ESR is a critical parameter
22:47 < bkero> 10 mOhm
22:48 < bkero> Is that the rate of dischareg?
22:48 < bkero> *discharge
22:48 < bkero> (or internal resistance)
22:48 < fenn> its resistance
22:49 < fenn> hmm that could work
22:53 < bkero> F=(A*sec)/V
22:53 < fenn> at 8kW total you'd dissipate 400W in the capacitor
22:54 < fenn> but 8kW isn't a steady state condition so it's sorta hard to estimate heat sinking requirements
22:54 < bkero> It disappates as heat, and 400w is a shitton of heat
22:54 < fenn> and also you have to consider the thermal conductivity of the insides of the capacitor
22:54 < bkero> 400w would be doable by a really big heat sink.  My processor does about 210w
22:55 < fenn> also, you'd only get 20 sec of "thrust"
22:56 < bkero> Which is plenty for a dragster, but not so much a car. :P
22:56 < fenn> ya
22:56 < fenn> but you said bicycle so i assume there's some kind of regenerative braking
22:56 < bkero> Nah, I'm using a cheap motor.
22:56 < bkero> I'm using 2 36v 15Ah batteries, an ebay 750w motor, and a MY1020 750w motor
22:57 < bkero> *ebay controller
22:57 < fenn> then why use supercaps at all?
22:57 < bkero> I hadn't looked into that very much
22:57 < bkero> To put a really fat back tire on the bike and do burnouts
22:57 < bkero> Although supercapacitors would be excellent for taking regenerative braking
22:58 < fenn> well 750W isnt enough to do burnouts :0
22:58 < bkero> Priuses should use it for regen. :/
22:58 < bkero> It is on a tiny skinny bike tire. 8)
22:58 < bkero> 745 watts = 1 horsepower
22:58 < bkero> 1 horsepower and < 100lbs
22:59 < fenn> i think i've seen remote controlled cars with >1hp
22:59 < bkero> 1 horsepower will get me up to around 22-30mph depending on if it's completely full or half empty
23:00 < bkero> Voltage drop on lead-acid batteries is aboslute shit.
23:00 < fenn> use a boost converter? eh nevermind
23:00 < bkero> I'd like to replace this pack with lithium ion cells, but that's expensive AND NOBODY MAKES BATTERY HOLDERS FOR THEM!!!!
23:01  * bkero ordered a 10 pack of 18650s on ebay last week to replace the ones in his aging iBook.
23:02 < fenn> i just never unplug my laptop
23:02 < bkero> That's pretty bad for the battery.  I've ruined 2 in my powerbook that way
23:02 < bkero> If you never unplug it, I'd recommend taking the battery out.
23:03 < fenn> why?
23:03 < bkero> Battery chargers(even smart ones) maintain float voltage on the batteries.
23:03 < bkero> They burn off the top electrolyte
23:08 < bkero> The battery on my macbook is 9 months old, and the battery holds 5091mAh.  The battery was originally rated for 5020mAh.
23:08 < bkero> It has 300 load cycles on it
23:09 < fenn> remaining capacity:      299 mAh
23:09 < fenn> it seems to cut that number in half each time i run on battery power
23:09 < fenn> that's "fully charged"
23:10 < bkero> errr
23:10 < bkero> What's 'original capacity'?
23:10 < bkero>  / design capacity
23:10 < fenn> i think 2000-3000, not sure how to find out
23:10 < bkero> cat /proc/acpi/battery/BAT0/state
23:11 < fenn> present:                 yes
23:11 < fenn> capacity state:          ok
23:11 < fenn> charging state:          discharging
23:11 < fenn> present rate:            800 mA
23:11 < fenn> remaining capacity:      299 mAh
23:11 < fenn> present voltage:         12330 mV
23:11 < bkero> Hum, strange.
23:11 < bkero> Look up your model laptop on google. :P
23:11 < bkero> 300mAh is staggeringly bad though.  My 2005 iBook is at 72% original capacity, and goes up to 3100mAh.
23:12 < fenn> i'm sorta wondering how it comes up with that number
23:13 < fenn> looks like it was probably 3600mAh
23:13 < bkero> The ACPI controller on your motherboard shows it to the bios
23:16 < fenn> i want a laptop that takes AA batteries, is that so hard
23:16 < bkero> It's entirely doable.
23:17 < bkero> You'd need 16 AAs to get a decent sized laptop battery
23:18 < fenn> that's about the same as what's there now
23:18 < bkero> The Li-ions in there now are 3.7V * 2000mAh
23:18 < bkero> That's what's been used in laptops for the last 5 years or so
23:19 < bkero> AAs can't be recharged that many times. :/
23:19 < bkero> Sorry, rechargables are 1.2V.  You'd need 20 to get a decent sized battery
23:20 < fenn> what do you mean 'decent'?
23:20 < bkero> Would last more than 1.5 hours
23:20 < bkero> At 1.2V you'd need 10 to get up to 12V.  Then you have 12V * capacitory of a single cell
23:21 < bkero> Put 2 of those strings in parallel and you have 12V * double the capacity of a single cell
23:21 < fenn> ok, so NiMH AA batteries are like 2600mAh = 3.25hr
23:21 < fenn> at the 800mA which i'm currently using
23:22 < bkero> NiCAD AA's are 650-800mAh
23:22 < fenn> but i dont need nicad
23:22 < bkero> If you use NiMHs you can get them 1300-2850mAh
23:23 < bkero> Good laptops will typically draw around 18W
23:23 < bkero> So if you have 2850mAh * 12V, that's 34.2 Wh
23:23 < fenn> i guess my laptop sucks then because it's using 10W?
23:23 < bkero> Are you sure it's using 10W?
23:23 < fenn> no
23:24 < fenn> that's just what acpi tells me
23:24 < bkero> 10W is pretty good
23:24 < bkero> Then theoretically a single string of the highest capacity AAs you can find would make it last for 10/34.2 hours
23:25 < fenn> uh, what?
23:25 < bkero> Your laptop is consuming 10 watts per hour
23:25 < bkero> If the battery is 34.2 Wh, that's 10/34.2 hours it'll last
23:25 < fenn> 34.2 watt*hr/10watt = 3.42hours
23:25 < bkero> Sorry, yea
23:25 < bkero> Other way around
23:26 < bkero> Hooray checking for feasability.
23:26 < bkero> 4 hours on 10 AA's isn't too bad
23:26 < bkero> My laptop is using 1487mA at 12.371mV
23:27 < bkero> 18.4 watts :/
23:29 < bkero> 20 AA's would be a nice auxilery battery pack though. :)
23:48 < bkero> What do you think of Human completion?