--- Day changed Sun Aug 17 2008
04:27 < kanzure> yes
04:27 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/
04:27 < kanzure> it's in the folder that makes sense
04:27 < kanzure> uhm
04:27 < kanzure> the one I linked to from the email
04:50 < kanzure> http://gizmodo.com/5036953/guy-films-space-shuttle-launch-from-passing-airliner
05:43 < willPow3r_>  http://www.nbcolympics.com/video/player.html?assetid=0816_sd_wlm_au_l1688&channelcode=sportwl
06:02 < ybit> maybe it'd be nice if, i dunno, it actually played on my computer (and supported my browser w/out me having to change the identification of my OS)
06:03 < willPow3r_> what? you don't use windows??
06:03 < ybit> though, tbh, i still wouldn't watch it :P
06:03 < willPow3r_> why's that?
06:03 < ybit> other things to do
06:03 < ybit> other things to watch :)
06:04 < willPow3r_> a hungarian weightlifter dislocates his elbow
06:05 < ybit> now that i do want to see
06:05 < willPow3r_> in high def ;)
06:06 < ybit> kanzure, that guy's reaction is classic
06:06 < ybit> willPow3r_ :P
06:06 < willPow3r_> i think he would have been less impressed had he not been on a very boring flight
06:11 < ybit> longturn.org (my fav strategy game just got better) 
06:17 < kanzure> I'm doing a brief re-read of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_computing and it mentions 'Given a specific task to solve, and a class of functions F, learning means using a set of observations, in order to find f within the class of functions F,  which solves the task in an optimal sense.' Geeze, damn, sounds like, I dunno, a (hack of a) compiler optimizer.
06:22 < willPow3r_> freeciv is your fav strategy game?
06:22 < willPow3r_> i prefer parcheesi
06:23 < ybit> well, it's my fav strategy game that runs on this computer and is free :)
06:24 < willPow3r_> heh
06:25 < ybit> you prefer a board game in the digital age o_O
06:25 < willPow3r_> call me a luddite if you will
06:25 < ybit> hehe
06:26 < ybit> i've always thought that those who played board games in the past would prefer RTS games these days, since the strategy required can be more dynamic
06:26 < ybit> and just as complex
06:26 < ybit> but i am interested in luddite now
06:26 < ybit> GRR
06:27 < ybit> parcheesi
06:28 < willPow3r_> 133000 google results for parcheesi
06:29 < ybit> and only one matters: wikipedia
06:29 < ybit> (joking)
06:29 < ybit> ..kind of
06:29 < willPow3r_> i'm looking for an online version
06:32 < willPow3r_> the "cultural references" section in wikipedia articles is the most useless information
06:32 < ybit> holy crap, http://www.yofrankie.org/ looks to be one of the most polished OS games 
06:33 < ybit> ^my initial thought from glancing at the initial screenshots
06:33 < willPow3r_> it does look good for OS
06:33 < ybit> but upon further examinsation, i'm not so sure. but yeah, for an OS game, it looks great
06:34 < willPow3r_> its definitely a step in the right direction
06:34 < willPow3r_> for os gaming
06:36 < willPow3r_> 34 euros?
06:37 < ybit> eh?
06:37 < willPow3r_> that game costs $50
06:37 < ybit> it will be free i do believe
06:38 < ybit> the dvd is to help the foundation
06:38 < ybit> you don't have to purchase it
06:38 < ybit> it's like http://www.bigbuckbunny.org/
06:39 < ybit> and elephant's dream previously before that
06:42 < willPow3r_> interesting
06:42 < willPow3r_> i knew blender had a game engine
06:43 < willPow3r_> but never really fiddled with it
06:45 < ybit> i'm not sure how it works really, haven't messed with it, but i do know they also used crystal space
06:45 < ybit> i bet wikipedia has the scoop
06:46 < ybit> or not
06:49 < willPow3r_> http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2008-08/mu-mtl081408.php
07:00 < fenn> uh, water + 1.2V = hydrogen + oxygen is nothing new?
07:01 < fenn> dont you love watered down science reporting?
07:19 < bkero> water + electricity = hydrogen + oxygen
07:19 < bkero> Because I didn't use that as a kid to make hydrogen bombs. :)
07:40 < willPow3r_> "Whilst man has been able to split water into hydrogen and oxygen for years, we have been able to do the same thing for the first time using just sunlight, an electrical potential of 1.2 volts and the very chemical that nature has selected for this purpose,"
07:40 < willPow3r_> the catalyst is what's important
07:42 < bkero> How about we cut out the middle man and make a car that runs off of straight atp
07:44 < bkero> I hear plants are pretty abundant.
07:44 < willPow3r_> bkero: sounds like you are referring to mr. fusion
07:45 < bkero> Why would it need fusion?
07:45 < willPow3r_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flux_capacitor#Flux_capacitor
07:46 < bkero> BioEngine that uses ATP for fuel :)
07:46 < bkero> Fuck internal combustion.  I did away with that a long time ago.
07:47 < willPow3r_> so you ride a bike mostly then?
07:47 < bkero> Electricity
07:47 < bkero> I have an electric bike, and electric car.
07:48 < willPow3r_> i hope your electricity doesn't come from a coal-fired power plant.
07:48 < fenn> bkero: plants are not very efficient.. something like 2-6% sunlight to sugar efficiency
07:48 < bkero> I've got 1 800 watt solar cell
07:48 < bkero> fenn: Could that be improved by genetic engineering?
07:49 < fenn> yes
07:49 < bkero> I'm sure it really varies depending on the environment too
07:49 < bkero> A good internal combustion engine is 25% efficient. :P
07:50 < bkero> Good electric motors are up to 95% mechanically efficient.
07:50 < fenn> more than that i should hope
07:50 < bkero> When you get to big brushless dc motors they're around 99%
07:50 < fenn> the motor is only part of the system though
07:51 < bkero> It really depends on the configuration too.  You can make it more efficient of a motor by advancing the brushes, but that will destroy the motor if you ever try to use it as a generator to get electricity back.  That's why a prius has 2 electric motors.
07:51 < fenn> also must take into account losses in the drivetrain, batteries, controller, charging system, transmission lines, yadda 
07:52 < fenn> let's not talk about the prius
07:52 < bkero> Drivetrain doesn't need to exist with a linear torque curve.  With properly sized wires loss is negligable.
07:52 < bkero> Charging systems are pretty inefficient for the first 10% and the last 8%
07:53  * bkero has made full-scale electric cars before. :P
07:53 < fenn> retrofitted right?
07:53 < bkero> Yup
07:53 < fenn> see, that sorta takes the fun out of it
07:53 < bkero> 91 MR2 is my car
07:53 < bkero> What?  Would you rather I make it a tube frame?
07:54 < fenn> its just that cars are totally designed around their engine
07:54 < fenn> and electric motors let you get away from that mentality
07:54 < bkero> They're also the cheapest turn-key solutions available.
07:54 < bkero> I made it when I didn't have a lot of extra funds lying around.
07:55 < bkero> 8" Advanced DC motor, 11 NiMH EV-1 batteries, 150A Zivan charger, Curtis controller
07:55 < bkero> I rebuilt the "engine" in half an hour without ever doing it before. :)
07:56 < fenn> how did you get ev-1 batteries?
07:56 < bkero> I bought them from a guy
07:56 < fenn> i thought they shredded them all
07:57 < bkero> I didn't ask where he got them from--I presume they took some batteries out of some before crushing.
07:57 < bkero> Probably because they posed a bad environmental impact.
07:57 < bkero> (do they take lead-acids out of regular cars before crushing?)
07:57 < fenn> yes
07:57 < bkero> That would be it then.
07:57 < fenn> how much did all that cost?
07:58 < bkero> $800 for the motor and controller, $2500 for the batteries, $300 for the charger
07:58 < bkero> $1500 for the transmission adapter
07:58 < fenn> ouch
07:58 < fenn> just a plate with some holes in it right?
07:58 < bkero> and a fucking shit ton for motor mounts, wires, per-cell charging pcbs, and the battery rack
07:59 < bkero> Yea.  It's custom made though, and I wasn't about to machine it myself.
08:00 < bkero> Heh, I'm not sure that I even needed to keep the transmission.  The only 2 gears I ever use are 2nd and 3rd.
08:01 < bkero> linear torque curves are awesome
08:02 < fenn> somewhere down the project list is a three wheel electric "motorcycle"
08:02 < bkero> Easy to do.  I did it to my bicycle for around $200
08:02 < fenn> enclosed canopy
08:02 < fenn> two seats, steam engine, etc
08:03 < fenn> this would be more like a car, with a roll frame and capable of reaching highway speeds
08:04 < fenn> i dont mind riding a bicycle around town
08:04 < bkero> So you want to convert a trike
08:04 < bkero> and put a top on it
08:04 < fenn> no, this would be scratch built
08:04 < bkero> Just buy a sparrow dude lol
08:04 < bkero> My ex-girlfriend has one
08:04 < bkero> 3 wheels, roof, roll cage, and I've personally taken it to 85mph
08:04  * fenn shudders
08:05 < fenn> wtf is that
08:05 < fenn> it looks like something from a richard scarry book
08:05 < bkero> This is the guy I bought the ev1 batteries from: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oifK7tJfKT0
08:05 < bkero> Get a jellybean and not a pizza butt
08:05 < fenn> http://www.thingamababy.com/photos/uncategorized/scarry2.jpg
08:06 < bkero> Heh
08:06 < bkero> Sparrows were made by the company Corbin, which was started by a bunch of disgruntled Harley Davidson engineers.
08:07 < fenn> yeah i believe it
08:07 < fenn> <- not a harley fan :P
08:08 < bkero> 40 mile range, 85+mph, costs around $0.11 to fill up
08:08 < bkero> tax breaks :D
08:08 < bkero> and you're not sending your money to middle eastern countries
08:14 < fenn> 1350 lbs is almost as much as my CRX
08:15 < fenn> how is that even possible?
08:15 < fenn> it must be made out of solid lead!
08:16 < bkero> 13 lead acid batteries
08:16 < bkero> Good big optima yellowtops
08:16 < fenn> batteries are only 600 lbs of that
08:17 < fenn> so what's the other 750 lbs?
08:17 < bkero> wheels, motor, controller, brake assembly, and frame
08:17 < bkero> The frame is aluminum with a composite body.
08:18 < bkero> and your crx is slightly more than 1350. :P
08:18 < fenn> 1715 stock, and i removed some pieces :P
08:18 < bkero> 1715 stock dry
08:19 < bkero> Take it to a scale and I bet it's almost 2k
08:19 < fenn> meh
08:19 < fenn> anyway, the point is that _thing_ weighs almost as much as a full size car
08:20 < bkero> CRX's aren't full sized cars
08:20 < bkero> It weighs well under half of most full sized cars.
08:20 < fenn> bah
08:20 < bkero> The only cars that I can think of around 1800 are CRXs and 1st gen GTIs.
08:20 < bkero> Most cars are 2800 upwards
08:21 < bkero> The 91 MR2 weighs almost 3200lbs stock
08:21 < bkero> Around 800 of that is the engine :P
08:22 < bkero> Insights make really good conversions thanks to their aluminum frames and small size.
08:23 < fenn> and they're all star-trekky too
08:23 < bkero> I'be seen absolutely horrendous looking insight trunks filled with A123 cells and chargers
08:29 < fenn> wouldnt it make more sense to put the batteries in the engine compartment?
08:29 < bkero> Not when you have 100+ A123 cells
08:29 < fenn> how many gallons is that? :)
08:29 < bkero> Plus it wasn't really finalized I think
08:29 < bkero> Gallons of what?
08:30 < fenn> volume
08:30  * bkero shrugs.
08:30 < bkero> It was 2 layers of insight trunk layed out
08:30 < bkero> laid out
08:30 < bkero> Why would in the engine compartment be better?
08:31 < fenn> for one it would keep the weight distribution more like the original
08:31 < fenn> and if the batteries explode or vent gas it's not in the passenger compartment
08:31 < fenn> and you get to keep the trunk
08:32 < bkero> Batteries in the trunk give it a weight distribution closer to 50/50 than the original
08:32 < fenn> is that good though?
08:32 < bkero> He could just put another board on top of the 2nd layer of batteries/chargers and have a trunk again
08:32 < bkero> 50/50 weight distribution is good for cornering, but isn't going to affect fuel economy at all.
08:34 < bkero> My MR2 originally had 35/65 weight distribution.  Which makes things very squirrely and fun.  It's like driving a giant styrofoam penis with lead balls
08:34 < fenn> hmm doesn't sound very fun to me
08:35 < bkero> Oversteer doesn't sound like fun?
08:35 < fenn> i want a car to go where i point it
08:36 < fenn> having weight over the steer/drive wheels just seems like a good idea
08:37 < bkero> Not really
08:37 < bkero> That just hurts braking performance and causes understeer
08:37 < bkero> Which is exactly what you don't want.
08:37 < fenn> why does it hurt braking performance?
08:39 < bkero> Because it fucks with the suspension doing weight shifts under heavy braking
08:39 < fenn> most of the mass should be below the wheel centerline
08:39 < bkero> Depends on the car
08:40 < bkero> With 240sx's and eclipses they're not
08:40 < fenn> (if you are putting batteries in the engine compartment)
08:40 < bkero> The reason people use 240sx's so much for drifting is because there's so much weight in the front that it's very easy to break the rear end out.
08:41 < fenn> ok, i'm talking about an electric car with front wheel drive
08:41 < fenn> sorry if that wasn't clear
08:42 < bkero> With electric cars you want an equal weight distribution because of spring rates.
08:42 < fenn> god how did they manage to make the insight even heavier than a CRX
08:42 < bkero> By putting electric motors and airbags and safety features in it
08:42 < bkero> ALL new cars are heavy as shit
08:42 < bkero> They're absolutely stupid.  I don't need 10 airbags to feel safe.
08:43 < fenn> i'd rather have a good CrMo roll cage
08:43 < bkero> Roll cages kill people in accidents. :P
08:43 < fenn> pff
08:43 < fenn> i'll take my chances with a harness + roll cage over being squished flat any day
08:43 < bkero> Before converting the MR2 I raced it in SCCA Solo2.
08:44 < bkero> Cars don't squish flat in accidents.
08:44 < fenn> yes they do
08:44 < bkero> That's what crumple zones and A pillars are for.
08:44 < bkero> My car has 5 firewalls. :P
08:49 < fenn> oh re: star-trekky insight, it was the s2000 speedometer i was thinking of
08:49 < bkero> lol honda making a rwd car
08:50 < fenn> http://images.importtuner.com/features/0401it_15z+2001_Honda_S2000+Interior_View_Speedometer.jpg
08:50 < fenn> not that a tachometer would be of much use..
08:50 < fenn> i'll shut up now
08:52 < bkero> ampmeters are nice
08:55 < fenn> http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/05_04/FlattenedCarG_850x649.jpg
08:55 < bkero> Totally worried about that happening in traffic
08:55 < bkero> Do you live in sheepfuckistan or something?
08:57 < fenn> actually a tree fell on my first CRX, wasn't quite so bad as that though
09:02 < bkero> lol
09:04 < fenn> this one's not so much flat as rolled up into a little ball: http://www.daylife.com/photo/0di66uY45S5Rx
09:05 < bkero> hahaha awesome
09:05 < fenn> did you know roll cage + harness is illegal to drive on public roads? supposedly because you'd get stuck more easily than with a seatbelt
09:06 < fenn> nevermind the whole not getting killed in the first place thing
09:06 < bkero> Yup
09:06 < bkero> and because even with padding, hitting a rollcage in an accident will break your bones.
09:06 < fenn> ... that's what the harness is for?
09:07 < fenn> and you can have airbags too if you're a wingnut
09:07 < bkero> Even with harnesses you're still suseptable to lateral motion.
09:07  * bkero had 5-point harnesses in his car
09:07 < bkero> Very easy to bolt to the firewall
09:11  * fenn mumbles something about phased array maser powered helicopters
09:12 < bkero> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Brushless-Etek-Motor-and-36VDC-Sevcon-Controller-NIB_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ46093QQihZ003QQitemZ130246906982QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW
09:12 < bkero> I built a small electric motorcycle out of those
09:14 < bkero> oh god manly http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5vgWVdU-XQ
09:34 < kanzure> http://blogoscoped.com/archive/2008-07-10-n25.html Google Lively
09:34 < fenn> *wank*
09:35 < fenn> google reinvents the wheel for the twentieth time
09:37 < kanzure> http://www.brothers-brick.com/2008/07/23/bridge-from-singularity-sky/ <-- Lego
09:37 < kanzure> hurry for wheels
09:37  * kanzure has been hearing about "wheels" a lot at the sf con he's been going to
09:37 < kanzure> which is very, very wrong
09:40 < fenn> why is what wrong?
09:41 < fenn> guess i have to read 'singularity sky' now
09:50 < kanzure> 'wheel of _blank_' is a common fantasy saga title
09:50 < kanzure> and there's these stupid fantasy people at a science fiction conference
09:50 < kanzure> in a discussion about Clarke, half the people were dressed as gnomes or something
09:50 < kanzure> or maybe they just naturally look like that.
09:51 < fenn> oh, i see
09:51 < fenn> why do fantasy and sf get lumped in the same category?
09:52 < kanzure> fuck if I know
09:52 < kanzure> the clumping irritates me
09:52 < kanzure> don't get me wrong, there can be some good fantasy out there I guess
09:52 < kanzure> but it's not what I'm looking for when I look for science fiction
09:52 < kanzure> although, I did just get a copy of 'Silicon Mage', which is a weird "Silicon Brotherhood" sort of crossover between the two .. hrm.
09:53 < fenn> well you can have SF detective mysteries too, but that doesnt mean you have a bunch of dick tracy guys wandering around your SF convention
09:53 < kanzure> 'Nevertheless, she had to save him. Suraklin was planning to gain immortality by placing his mind in a computer that would get its power by draining the life-force from all on both worlds, dooming everyone to eternal misery and hopelessness. And only Antryg was strong enough a wizard to challenge the Dark Mage.'
09:56 < fenn> hmm "the use of self-replicating objects" is outlawed in google lively
09:57 < kanzure> I also fetched 'Once upon a galaxy', sf fairytales
09:57 < kanzure> or spacepirate tales or whatever the equivalent translation is
09:57  * kanzure found himself using the name 'DNA pirates' to refer earlier today to people torrenting genomes.
09:57 < fenn> lol
09:57 < kanzure> guess we call those whores
09:57 < kanzure> or reversewhores or something
09:59 < kanzure> http://nesteduniverse.net/events.html ai-related events/conferences ... somebody did their homework :)
10:22 < fenn> seems like charles stross is more about aggregating ideas from other SF authors than coming up with his own
10:23 < fenn> that's not necessarily a bad thing, but i'd rather read about it from the original source first
10:48 < kanzure> yep
10:48 < kanzure> it's why I don't actually read him
16:28 < nsh> http://impromptu.moso.com.au/gallery.html
22:49 < kanzure> so apparently Clarke is famous among his friends for sending "ego grams" where he just dumps everything he's been working on in his local short term memory to a paper and just sends that as his "what I've been up to" response letter. 
22:49 < kanzure> doesn't sound like a bad idea, coming up with these them 'egograms'.
22:57 < kanzure> Something I picked up on today: Revelation in a World of Science: A Comparison of Revelation in Paul Tillich’s Systematic Theology / AG Latner - MA Thesis. Graduate Theological Union, 1985 / http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Tillich / http://www.sff.net/people/alexis-latner/
23:00 < nsh> hrm
23:00 < nsh> why do you always post interesting things when i've used up all my brainpower for the day, kanzure?
23:02 < kanzure> don't get me wrong, my brainpower is dwindling too
23:02 < kanzure> I really should be sleeping right now
23:02  * nsh too
23:03 < kanzure> but I'm trying to figure out quantifications of the effectiveness of recombinational methodologies where 'recombination' is more about the recombination of forked (physical) processes (not really just on my computer).
23:04 < kanzure> I guess it's just compiler optimization still where the most effective methods will be the most elegant / 'efficient' etc. but that doesn't tell you anything about how to actually write the code necessary for
23:04 < kanzure> hrm, I haven't filled you guys in on the context
23:04  * kanzure scurries off to eat some dinner
23:05 < nsh> mmm, monadic
23:05 < kanzure> ?
23:06 < nsh> monads
23:06 < nsh> non-sequencial code wrapping
23:23 < kanzure> sort of
23:23 < kanzure> so here's what I'm talking about
23:24 < kanzure> hrm, this is hard
23:31 < fenn> anything is stated simply enough when you design the entire language around it
23:34 < nsh> fenn++
23:34 < kanzure> I've been able to make skdb do the eukaryote story, at least in my head, but I haven't the guarantee that you will be able to immediately productively go along various paths of recombination with various 'weird stuff you sniff up' /unless/ you have a ridiculous amount of time to sit around and work on esoteric interfaces
23:35 < kanzure> or, put another way,
23:35 < nsh> yes pls do
23:35 < kanzure> suppose you've grounded your social context with some backup clone generators and artificial wombs or womanly wombs and such, and you have your little clones running around getting stuffs for you, you don't have the guarantee that they will necessarily care .. I'm not looking for a way to use an iron fist here, just a way to .. not waste time.
23:36 < kanzure> by 'care' I mean contribute back to send you patches and new stuff to 'recombine with' just as the cell took with it the mitochondria etc. and other viruses etc.
23:36 < fenn> i thought you already had decided that biological systems were hard to program
23:38 < kanzure> I have a way that 'kids' could send updates to their parent-node in a patch submission scheme, perhaps built off of the idea of neurotech + working with neuroplasticity rules + the neuronal basis of instincts (yeah, weird, I know -- but no 'meme=perception' transfer stuff here, I don't need that (but I'd be glad to get it of course))
23:39 < kanzure> parenting with the iron fist of this-is-what-you-shall-become is incorrect and generally fails and is not worth lying to yourself about the construction of new brains to do your bidding
23:40 < kanzure> and you're right that programming of these sub-brain thingies would be ridiculously hard :)
23:40 < kanzure> I mean, you could wire them up to Skinner boxes and make them all go through the same exact stimulatory routines through development, but it's still probabilistic and I refuse to leave things up to 'chance' (whatever the hell that is)
23:41 < kanzure> now, I was figuring that if neural networks are really just a sneaky way of doing code optimization, then you could theoretically select for the "lesser of the two evils" and just support either MEA + neural tissue pods that do interesting stuff and toss the rest, but that doesn't seem to fit
23:42 < kanzure> I know this is rather dense and it's not really supposed to make sense yet since I don't have it completely hashed out
23:43 < fenn> hash away
23:44 < fenn> it all sounds familiar to me i guess
23:44  * nsh will read tomorrow
23:45 < nsh> must sleep brain now
23:45 < kanzure> I wonder if calling it linkbacks in meiosis is legitimate
23:45 < kanzure> just sprang to mind, it might not be the same thing
23:46 < kanzure> by 'linkback' I mean 'the patch is, in fact, sent back'
23:50 < kanzure> I think that I need to reconsider how much information processing a pile of neurons in goo is going to be doing ... suppose the brainfarms, or the simulations even, of networks - I don't actually have evidence that your simulation of a small group of neurons for feature recognition on news articles (or something) is going to fail to respond because it wants to do something else. :p