--- Day changed Sun Aug 24 2008
02:21 < kanzure> A novel pixon-representation for image segmentation based on Markov random field  http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=GatewayURL&_method=citationSearch&_urlVersion=4&_origin=SDVIALERTHTML&_version=1&_uoikey=B6V09-4SDGR1W-5&md5=9870b2fd9ddc1e6547f7c72468614b39
03:19 < ybit> novel indeed
18:20 < kanzure_> Hi all.
18:22 < nsh> ohai
18:23 < kanzure_> What I have: four boxes, one laptop, three ethernet PCI cards, one DVD drive, at least two hdd. I think I can throw the 2 hdd and 1 ethernet card into the new box, and then have a gateway with three ethernet ports + 1 onboard port, totalling up to four connected computers at a time. 
18:23 < kanzure_> The catch is that the server would have to come offline for a bit. Any objections? :p
18:23 < nsh> none here
18:23 < kanzure_> ok, anybody remember what the driver is on debian to make it go vroom? erm, I mean, to serve as a gateway/router thingy?
18:28 < nsh> no idea, sorry
21:02 < kanzure_> Hm. I'm not good at naming my machines.
21:39 < Phreedom> kanzure_: I think every linux box is a router by default
21:49 < kanzure_> I had to go through some configuration last time I did it.
21:50 < fenn> are you talking about IP masquerade NAT stuff?
21:50 < kanzure_> possibly
21:50 < kanzure_> not sure :)
21:51 < kanzure_> I used to run a wireless box as a router with its extra ethernet port to another machine
21:51 < kanzure_> erm, not quite a router
21:51 < kanzure_> just as a port ghost
21:51 < kanzure_> also, I don't know what to hostname this box
21:51 < fenn> you'll probably have to set up some iptables rules, it's pretty easy
21:51 < kanzure_> that's all?
21:52  * kanzure_ can do that.
21:53 < fenn> sudo iptables --table nat --append POSTROUTING --out-interface eth1 -j MASQUERADE
21:53 < fenn> sudo iptables --append FORWARD --in-interface eth1 -j ACCEPT
21:53 < fenn> echo 1 | sudo tee /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_forward
21:53 < kanzure_> does irssi log by default?
21:53 < fenn> no
21:53 < kanzure_> bastards
21:53 < kanzure_> can I turn on logging from within an irssi session?
21:54 < fenn> yeah
21:54 < nsh> why would anything nnot log by default in this day and age...
21:54 < fenn> terrists
21:54 < nsh> damn terr
21:54 < nsh> must it ruin every good thing
21:55 < fenn> oh, i guess you meant 'can i save whats on the screen to a log file' which is probably "no"
21:58 < kanzure_> Sort of, I also mean in general
21:58 < kanzure_> since it's been running for the past month
21:58  * nsh would suspect you can save the buffer
21:58 < nsh> oh
21:58 < nsh> then you're probably fuxed
22:03 < kanzure_> what was that word that I used the other day that meant that one is an egglayer?
22:04 < fenn> oviparous
22:05 < kanzure_> robot parents maybe
22:05 < kanzure_> I was trying to figure out how to make it work for humans ;-)
22:05 < kanzure_> parenting a von neumann probe kind of sucks
22:06 < fenn> you mean more than just the egg-laying, but the child-rearing process too?
22:07 < kanzure_> well, if you just did egg laying, children without parents are supposedly known to die
22:07 < kanzure_> however I can't recall citations on this one ..
22:07 < kanzure_> it might just be a myth
22:07 < fenn> i dont see why they should, with a big enough egg
22:07 < kanzure_> nutrition isn't the problem
22:07 < kanzure_> psychobabble stuff
22:07 < fenn> bullshit
22:07 < kanzure_> could we test with mice?
22:08 < fenn> they might grow up feral and unable to speak, but not dead
22:08 < kanzure_> what about the Nazi-infant studies?
22:08 < fenn> what nazi infant studies?
22:08 < kanzure_> dunno, just something I've heard
22:08 < kanzure_> the infants died when only provided nutrition
22:08 < kanzure_> don't know if this included diaper changing or sanitation and so on
22:09 < fenn> well, if wolves can raise a baby then robots can probably do a decent job
22:09 < kanzure_> wolves ?
22:09 < kanzure_> thought that was just a legend :)
22:09 < fenn> nope
22:09 < kanzure_> well then.
22:09 < kanzure_> if you can get me a ref on that, that'd be awesome
22:09  * kanzure_ finds snopes ..
22:10 < fenn> http://www.feralchildren.com
22:10 < fenn> lol
22:10 < fenn> i wonder if there's a sort of goth subculture around feral children
22:12 < kanzure_> "Rome wasn't made in a day, true, but it was made by wolf children."
22:12 < fenn> i saw a documentary where this leopard killed a monkey and then felt sorry for the baby money and raised it
22:14 < kanzure_> this would be a simple experiment to do with a mouse, really
22:14 < kanzure_> baby mouse, wire it up with one of those subdermal medicine dispension systems if we want
22:14 < fenn> a man is not a mouse, it doesn't prove anything
22:14 < kanzure_> for periodic nutrition releasal
22:15 < kanzure_> (refill during sleepcycles)
22:15 < kanzure_> hm
22:15 < fenn> but if you had a hyperintelligent mouse, it might be good enough to skip the humans altogether :P
22:17 < fenn> syrian gazelle boy!
22:19 < kanzure_> let's mount a DNA synthesizer, sequencer, ectogenetic tank / artificial/synthetic/otherwise-normal womb, and wearable computer on an exoskeleton
22:20 < kanzure_> it's not quite what I've been thinking
22:21 < kanzure_> you know how I got all hyper about the "recursive public" phrase and the way twobits.net says it? recursive public == SKDB == recursive self-improvement, except it's not really 'improvement', it's about architectures of these 'publics' or 'selves'. such as an exoskeletal architecture .. or an architecture where you're not going to completely, totally die if you die. By "you" I mean something else than consciousness though, so don't interpret this p
22:21 < kanzure_> *removable/portable womb ;-)
22:21 < kanzure_> no reason to emulate humans there ..
22:22 < fenn> "so don't interpret this p"
22:22 < kanzure_> poorly
22:22  * kanzure_ was being too verbose
22:23 < fenn> "recursive public" sounds like in-crowd jargon to me
22:23 < kanzure_> there's a concept of a 'public'
22:23 < kanzure_> normally it's just "whoever comes by to pick something up" and it's literally an "anybody"
22:23 < kanzure_> whereas when you say "public" it's more like "family" or "people that are in the same context"
22:23 < fenn> i know what it means, i just hate using jargon because it makes the person who doesn't know it feel inferior/ignorant
22:23 < kanzure_> wait, what's the alternative wording?
22:24 < kanzure_> does "recursive societies" mean the same thing?
22:24 < fenn> yes, but "recursive" doesn't carry the right meaning on its own
22:25 < fenn> also i think 'public' in 'recursive public' refers to the infrastructure as well as the people
22:25 < fenn> but whatver
22:25 < kanzure_> people are infrastructure
22:25 < kanzure_> is anything ever secure/private?
22:25 < fenn> um, that's a rather distorted view of the world
22:26 < fenn> which is unfortunately very widely prevalent in the modern era
22:26 < kanzure_> pardon?
22:26 < kanzure_> it's true that a person is a biological system
22:26 < fenn> people are not infrastructure, a man is worth more than what use he is to you
22:27 < fenn> otherwise why bother to do anything at all?
22:27 < kanzure_> oh, well, "people are infrastructure" could be interpreted to mean that I'm a nasty businessman making broad generalizations
22:28 < kanzure_> 'infrastructure' has connotations related to goals, doesn't it? hm
22:28 < kanzure_> but on the other hand I could argue to you a von Neumann probe that contains 20 different phenotypes of peoples
22:29 < kanzure_> bah, this is just semantics. sorry.
22:29 < fenn> some people think the whole universe belongs to them personally, at the expense of everything else
22:29 < fenn> i don't think that's right
22:30 < kanzure_> heh, remember my troubles with 'property rights'
22:31 < kanzure_> (although I'd like to figure out something better than "first come first serve" for matter acquisition)
22:31 < nsh> how bout
22:31 < fenn> say your embryos on the probe grow up and decide they don't really care about exploring the universe after all, and blow up your probe, is this 'good' or 'bad'?
22:31 < nsh> everyone grows the fuck up and learns to share
22:31 < nsh> i think that might work
22:32 < nsh> whoa, embryos on a probe?!?
22:32  * nsh wonders what is happening in this conversation
22:32 < fenn> nsh: kanzure is considering using humans or modified humans to direct the replication of von neumann probes in other star systems
22:33 < fenn> because it's easier (maybe) to grow humans than to grow computer chips or whatever
22:33 < nsh> oh
22:33  * nsh is dubious
22:33  * fenn to
22:33 < nsh> how much intelligence does a von neumann probe really need?
22:33 < kanzure_> well, you have to remember what I'm doing here
22:33 < nsh> you could use a drosophila brain
22:34 < fenn> nsh: more than you think.. could you bootstrap civilization on your own? from a bunch of interstellar debris
22:34 < kanzure_> the reason why I'm thinking about humans at the moment is because I'm interested in extending the human architecture to perhaps be its own sort of von neumann probe and so on
22:34 < nsh> fenn, good point
22:34 < kanzure_> it's not really that; I have trouble wording it
22:35 < fenn> you want to change the definition of human, simple enough
22:35 < kanzure_> heh
22:35 < fenn> present biological humans are unsuited for interstellar travel
22:35 < kanzure_> but but 
22:35 < kanzure_> no, that's not what I want
22:35 < kanzure_> robots are for interstellar travel, really
22:35 < kanzure_> I mean, that's what we should use for that
22:36 < fenn> eh, why?
22:36  * fenn wonders what we're having a discussion about
22:36 < kanzure_> nothing really
22:36 < kanzure_> hold on
22:36  * kanzure_ fixes
22:37  * fenn hands kanzure a can of "aspie's best friend" the new brain stimulator drink
22:43 < kanzure_> did we already slash down my idea of updating one's all-too-human architecture? i.e., grow a few clones, keep them adequately nutritioned, etc. ? Plus the usual ideas on apt-get for genes and technologies to throw into the exoskeleton or one's (mobile? please??) fablab
22:44 < kanzure_> erm -> re: growing clones. It occurs to me that we should be smart enough to pre-fetch all of the food necessary to sustain a child for 20 years. (egg yoke) (yolk?)
22:45 < fenn> 20 years is a lot of food
22:45 < kanzure_> let's calculate it
22:45 < fenn> easier to just graft a few leaves on :)
22:45 < kanzure_> take the numbers from intravenuous feeding tubes for patients per day 
22:45 < kanzure_> on a healthy diet
22:45 < kanzure_> a few leaves is hardly enough for autotrophy and humans
22:45 < kanzure_> there's a guy out on the net who wants to become photosynthetic
22:45 < kanzure_> I think he started Orion's Arm.
22:46 < fenn> not if you have a nuclear reactor providing plenty of light and cooling
22:46 < kanzure_> fusor.net :p
22:46 < fenn> there's a guy in india who stares at the sun for two hours a day, and hasnt eaten in twenty years
22:46 < kanzure_> a statue?
22:46 < fenn> no, he's a jainist
22:47 < kanzure_> I haven't heard of this one.
22:47 < kanzure_> Anyway, 20 years of food might turn out to be a few thousand gallons of nutritional slurp
22:48 < nsh> he's a jainist? the guy with the hilarious website?
22:48 < nsh> i thought he was central european and christian
22:48 < nsh> (inverted commas)
22:48 < fenn> Hira Ratan Manek
22:49 < nsh> ah, different guy
22:49 < kanzure_> so we didn't slash it down?
22:49 < kanzure_> good
22:49 < kanzure_> that's what we're talking about :p
22:51 < fenn> what is your idea, in detail?
22:54 < kanzure_> is there a way to explain an idea without making it sound goal-oriented?
22:56 < fenn> yes, most scientific theories are like this
22:56 < kanzure_> hm. since I suck at describing things when I try to be coherent, I'm going to try to be as incoherent as possible
22:57 < kanzure_> what I want to do is build my typical fablab setup, get my DNA synthesizer and my metal cutting tools and so on
22:57 < fenn> hint: remove i/we/you words and use passive tense
22:58 < kanzure_> oh, maybe calling it a 'family' is not too terrible
22:58 < nsh> Eliezer is a lot more stomachable when he's writing about physics
22:58 < nsh> (than AI)
22:59 < kanzure_> I think what I'm making might be a 'transhuman transitional system' ;-) but I'm not sure
22:59 < kanzure_> namely because there's no "self-improvement" necessarily in it
22:59 < kanzure_> i.e., if a user had apt-get install for genes, that's no guarantee of any phenotypic "improvement"
23:00 < kanzure_> (apt-get install in either (1) pre-embryonic stages of development or (2) viral gene therapy as well -- both are technologically feasible)
23:00 < kanzure_> but it's also a 'family' in that the user is actively backed up with little experiments running around
23:02 < kanzure_> hrm, this isn't making any more sense
23:04 < kanzure_> actually, it really should ever since I mentioned that it's skdb applied on a smaller scale
23:04 < kanzure_> and with the mentions of 'becoming a system administrator of the self' from a while back
23:06 < kanzure_> damn, why does it keep turning off at 70% completion of the debian installation?
23:07 < fenn> i had a computer that got hit by lightning that did that.. it also turned off if you moved the mouse too much or plugged anything into USB
23:07 < kanzure_> I think it might be overheating
23:08 < kanzure_> I asked the ##hardware guys whether I could have applied too little thermal paste
23:08 < fenn> it had weird voltages and would do it more when it was cold in the room
23:08 < kanzure_> and they sai no ..
23:08 < kanzure_> *said no
23:08 < kanzure_> I think they might be telling lies, so I'll go pile the thermal paste on it
23:08 < fenn> usually less thermal paste is better than more
23:08 < fenn> you want as much metal to metal contact as possible, paste just gets in the way
23:08 < kanzure_> even if it's not metal?
23:08 < kanzure_> oops
23:08 < kanzure_> even if it's not even?
23:09 < fenn> uh, what are you pasting?
23:09 < kanzure_> on top of the processor?
23:09 < fenn> processor is metal
23:09 < kanzure_> right
23:09 < kanzure_> I asked if "even if it's not even"
23:09 < fenn> er.. i dont know what you're asking
23:09 < kanzure_> i.e., maybe I didn't apply it smoothly
23:09 < fenn> thermal paste just fills in the cracks so it's even
23:10 < fenn> ideally you'd lap the heatsink so it's perfectly flat and use no paste
23:10 < kanzure_> lap?
23:11 < fenn> a grinding process