--- Day changed Sat Sep 13 2008
00:00 < fenn> i'm so uninformed when it comes to things like matlab that i dont even want to know
00:00 < fenn> like, wtf is matlab, why would anyone want to use it?
00:00 < kanzure> you want me to answer that?
00:00 < kanzure> matlab is all over the place in the labs
00:01 < fenn> "matlab allows easy matrix multiplication" but sfw, so does every other progamming language
00:01 < kanzure> it's as deeply rooted as perhaps fortran was
00:01 < kanzure> "nothing's better than fortran!"
00:01 < kanzure> then came matlab or something
00:01 < fenn> i thought everyone always hated fortran
00:02 < kanzure> mauk wants to rewrite his cerebellum code from visual basic to fortran
00:02 < kanzure> "when I was your age, and I entered academia, I too thought fortran was old .. and this was the 70s, mind you"
00:02 < fenn> tell mauk to spend 20 minutes surveying the past 50 years in computer language development
00:02 < kanzure> no kidding
00:04 < fenn> i wish python did lists the way matlab does (without having to do some import numpy or whatever) so that 2 * [1, 2] = [2, 4] not [1, 2, 1, 2]
00:07 < fenn> so i ordered one of those folding keyboards
00:07 < fenn> perhaps i can arrange things so that i will work on it in order to procrastinate working on something else
00:08 < kanzure> keep on procrastinating, soldier
00:08 < kanzure> it's good work.
00:08 < kanzure> meanwhile /me is still trying to figure out what it was that he was going to be doing
00:09 < fenn> good luck with that
00:09 < kanzure> I'm not sure I should write the skdb code stuff now, it looks like the lab's software sorta kinda does it
00:09  * fenn off to interact with real world for a bit, sorta
00:09 < kanzure> stalking?
00:09 < fenn> going to grocery w/roomie
00:29 < kanzure> does anyone remember their statistical thermodynamcis?
00:29 < kanzure> *thermodynamics
00:29 < kanzure> In particular, Boltzmann and his ensemble of particles; the importance of being able to set fire to a tree and get ashes and not be able to reconstruct the tree from the information within the ashes, and so on?
00:31 < kanzure> since we're just generally interested in matter/energy manipulation processes, I'm wondering if it would be helpful to just work at a slightly deeper level at those system effects rather than at the level of silly part names etc. - an ontology to approaching thermodynamics and 
00:31 < kanzure> general systems can be selected, and from there different parts are simply the embodiment of conversions from matter/energy into various forms in order to complete given design requirements with a given context specification. Like the conversion of hydrogen clouds into sandwhiches.
00:31 < kanzure> Oh, guess that doesn't help the grounding issues. Nevermind, you still can't get a free lunch with those sandwhiches.
00:31 < kanzure> (by this I mean you still have to provide enough to tell it what a 'sandwhich' must mean)
00:32 < kanzure> though I don't suppose keeping strictly to optimization rules thereof is a terrible idea
01:27  * fenn mumbles something about "new kind of science"
01:28 < fenn> you can't reconstruct the tree because of the heisenberg uncertainty principle
01:28 < fenn> if you knew the positions of all particles/wavicles in the tree's light cone, you could reconstruct the tree
01:28 < fenn> or at least backtrack through time to see what it was like
01:29 < kanzure> I keep having this love/hate relationship with metadata entry :) 
01:29 < kanzure> anywho, http://oem.cadregister.com/asp/PPOW_Entry.asp?elementID=73333734/HEATING/FANHEAT/CY0007/3&orderedResponses=0|&language=GB&oem=true&referrer=CNDynLink&css=&isWT=n&WTID=&cId=3374&appId=124&lsId=15617&ctId=0&vId=10&uId=&rn=02700.0-00&rm=PTC%20Fan%20Heater&rb=Woot
01:29 < kanzure> there's a java applet for viewing the models
01:29 < kanzure> meaning the model data is being sent to the client
01:29 < kanzure> although java applets apparently don't work on my system
01:30 < fenn> "Please install the Java Runtime Environment before refreshing this page. "?
01:30 < kanzure> although look under the 'email' select box thingy
01:30 < kanzure> no, I just get the java box fadded out thingy
01:30 < kanzure> even though I have, in fact, installed the jdk, vm, sdk, all sorts of java stuff
01:30 < fenn> what is this thing supposed to do exactly?
01:31 < kanzure> http://psv5.cadregister.com/enablement/ENparts/TIN41173.xml
01:31 < kanzure> is this just geometry?
01:31 < fenn> 404
01:31 < kanzure> '<!-- This XML-document is generated by PowerParts.
01:31 < kanzure> It's well-formed and valid against genius_part.xsd XML Schema Definition. -->'
01:31 < kanzure> hrm
01:32 < kanzure> go back to the link, see the 'download' select box thingy
01:32 < kanzure> select 'XML'
01:32 < fenn> i guess 'information only' is product lifecycle stuff
01:32 < kanzure> doesn't seem to be much functionality
01:32 < kanzure> this is a heater unit thingy?
01:33 < fenn> well, i cant get it to work either way
01:33 < fenn> did i mention i hate web 2.0?
01:33 < kanzure> doesn't look web 2.0 to me
01:33 < kanzure> what's happening on your end?
01:33 < fenn> it's a web app
01:33 < fenn> == web 2.0 in my book
01:33 < kanzure> oh :)
01:34 < fenn> it says 'please wait...' and then goes back to the 'please install jvm' page
01:34 < kanzure> web 2.0 started in the 90s for you then :)
01:34 < kanzure> what a hell
01:34 < kanzure> odd
01:34 < kanzure> browser?
01:34 < fenn> konq
01:34 < fenn> waiting on firepig
01:34 < fenn> my laptop seems to be getting exponentially slower
01:34 < kanzure> you can make an entire campaign on "fire the fox"
01:34 < kanzure> why is it that computers tend to get slow in their lifetime?
01:35 < kanzure> even without using other computers, i.e. without a bias effect
01:35 < fenn> ok  but it's actually iceweasel so, "ice the weasel"
01:35 < fenn> it's becausse each webpage has 500 fricking images on it
01:35 < fenn> so you get horrrid memory frragmentation, especially in the 256MB of ram that i have
01:36 < kanzure> works in ff for me
01:36 < kanzure> iceweasel, I mean
01:36 < fenn> me too
01:36 < kanzure> nope, nevermind
01:36 < kanzure> it doesn't give me my popup with the image I requested
01:36 < kanzure> opera works though. whatever.
01:37 < kanzure> hrm, elementID is a weird variable
01:37 < kanzure> guess I'll have to steal the index from thomasnet.com's html pages
01:37 < kanzure> but I'm not convinced this data set is useful
01:38 < kanzure> what's the point of just giving out the models?
01:38 < kanzure> there's not even a "send us money to give you the equations" etc.
01:38 < kanzure> maybe it's in the cad files, I haven't looked
01:38 < fenn> you mean non-parametric geometry?
01:39 < fenn> unlike industrial machinery, cad file format interoperability is a real Hard Problem
01:39 < kanzure> what?
01:39 < kanzure> I don't know if I mean any sort of geometry
01:39 < kanzure> I mean stuff like "here's what this *does*"
01:39 < fenn> hence monstrosities like STEP
01:39 < kanzure> STEP?
01:40 < fenn> STEP is sort of like the union set of all cad file formats
01:40 < kanzure> 214 or 213 or what do I want?
01:40 < fenn> but written in this awful EXPRESS language
01:40 < kanzure> 'STEP unigraphics' ?
01:40 < fenn> unigraphics is a cad company
01:40 < fenn> STEP is an ISO standard
01:40 < fenn> 214 is the second graphics/geometry subset of STEP
01:40 < fenn> for automotive/aerospace
01:40 < kanzure> is there a non-gfx subset?
01:40 < fenn> yes, at least 214 of them
01:41 < kanzure> hrm
01:41 < kanzure> /* ISO 10303-21 file written by STEP Caselib, ProSTEP GmbH, Germany */
01:41 < fenn> 10303 is STEP
01:42 < fenn> 10303-21 is the file format, sorta like XML but not
01:42 < kanzure> STEP 203 looks exactly the same .. 
01:42 < fenn> it's called EXPRESS and was made up solely for describing the STEP standard
01:42 < fenn> 21 is just the low level format
01:42 < kanzure> I don't see anything but geometry here
01:42 < fenn> the information within can be 203, 214, whatever
01:42 < kanzure> this tells me very little ..
01:42 < fenn> 203 is just geometry
01:43 < kanzure> I want non-geo info
01:43 < kanzure> argh
01:43 < fenn> what sort of non-geo info?
01:43 < kanzure> well, "what does this product do" 
01:43 < kanzure> I don't care what sort of weird ontology it's in
01:43 < kanzure> I guess it's on thomasnet.com's stupid 67,000 categories
01:43 < fenn> please be patient while my computer cranks away..
01:43 < kanzure> hm?
01:44 < kanzure> wtf is this shit? #703=EDGE_CURVE('EDGE85',#683,#667,#702,.T.); #704=ORIENTED_EDGE('COEDGE98',*,*,#703,.F.); #705=EDGE_LOOP('NONE',(#691,#697,#698,#704)); #706=FACE_BOUND('LOOP1',#705,.T.);
01:44 < kanzure> terrible :)
01:44 < fenn> i havent seen disk thrashing like this since 1999
01:44 < kanzure> same old lappy?
01:44 < fenn> no, only had this lappy 2 years or so
01:44 < fenn> this s what happens when i run java
01:45 < fenn> #705=EDGE_LOOP('NONE',(#691,#697,#698,#704))
01:46 < fenn> see #704, that references #704=ORIENTED_EDGE('COEDGE98',*,*,#703,.F.);
01:46 < fenn> those sort of reference links can be parametric
01:46 < fenn> oh, that's express format btw
01:46 < fenn> er, no actually it's 10303-21, sorry
01:47 < fenn> express is like XSD
01:48 < kanzure> I know what it's saying, just doubt its optimality for it
01:48 < fenn> so there is some non-geometry info if you download non-geometry XML (but not too much)
01:49 < fenn> most cad files are just "drafting" not "design" so dont get your hopes up
01:49 < kanzure> what use is it then
01:50 < kanzure> I mean, just algorithmically generate boxes and stuff
01:50 < fenn> it's a way to describe what you want, or what something is
01:50 < kanzure> problem solved, why download cad
01:50 < kanzure> drafting cad
01:50 < fenn> huh?
01:50 < fenn> ever try to draw precise boxes in blender?
01:50 < kanzure> if you just need polygons, run GenerateSphere(radius);
01:50  * kanzure is confused. are they making drafting harder than it actually is?
01:51 < kanzure> because I know there's more to it than just geometry
01:51 < fenn> you understand what a shop drawing is right?
01:51 < kanzure> well, no, because surely they come with different material requirements
01:51 < fenn> hell, most engineers don't know what a shop drawing is for :(
01:51 < fenn> this planet is so fucked
01:51 < kanzure> where are they getting the material information about the cad file they might be implementing?
01:51 < kanzure> eh?
01:52 < fenn> material information is usually marked somewhere on the drawing, it's a pretty standard cad thing
01:52 < fenn> sorry if i dont know whatever goofball XML format thomasnet uses
01:52 < kanzure> there's multiple file formats that they offer, did you see the list?
01:52 < fenn> thomasnet is like ebay for industry
01:52 < kanzure> except sucks a little bit more as far as I can tell
01:53 < fenn> naturally, everything in industry sucks
01:53 < fenn> for some reason the most pig-headed obstinate greedy fucks make it to the top
01:53 < fenn> and unlike the military or science, they dont have to actually show any progress
01:54 < fenn> just make it look like progress
01:55 < fenn> actually thomasnet is more like amazon, alibaba is like ebay
01:55 < kanzure> DXF 3D, STEP 214, STEP 203, STEP Unigraphics, ACIS SAT 4.0, ACIS SAT 3.0, ACIS SAT 2.0, IGES, VDA-FS, JPG, BMP, PNG,  TIF, PCX, TGA, XML, XML Geometry only, XML Information only
01:56 < kanzure> bmp! pick bmp!
01:56 < fenn> i like IGES
01:56 < kanzure> does it have non-geom info
01:56 < fenn> no, it's strictly geometry
01:57 < kanzure> gahreloq
01:57 < fenn> those are all geometry or picture formats i think (not sure what step unigraphics is exactly)
01:57 < kanzure> ok, explain shop drawing and why thomasnet isn't giving me something more useful than just a picture and saying "make up materials and specs while you go kthnxbai"
01:57 < fenn> and xml can contain whatever obviously
01:58 < kanzure> I checked the xml, it was geom
01:58 < fenn> ok, shop drawing is a piece of paper you hand to the dirty factory guy at the end of the line, where the bits hit the road
01:58 < kanzure> at the end of the line?
01:58 < fenn> somewhere in china
01:58 < fenn> in this factory there's dudes that run the machines and dudes that wrangle cad files
01:59 < kanzure> ok, I was interpreting lines to be machines
01:59 < fenn> the cad file is wrangled into a g-code format by cad programs that only recognize certain features of cad file formats, so it usually takes lots of massaging with said cad programs to make it work
01:59 < kanzure> so why would he be at the end of the machines if he's interpreting the drawings? etc.
01:59 < kanzure> hrm
02:00 < kanzure> how awkward .. no material specifity?
02:00 < fenn> "line" goes something like research -> engineering -> development -> procurement -> manufacturing
02:00 < kanzure> so people with calculators and fancy equations are doing everything, separately, somewhere, off in invisible margins?
02:00 < fenn> ok wait i'm not done yet
02:01 < fenn> while the software jockey is wrangling cad formats, the shop floor guy is looking around for a block of steel, because it says "steel 1040 AISI blah blah"
02:01 < fenn> on the paper drawing
02:01 < fenn> he theoretically doesnt care what the part is or does, as long as he makes the part to specification, meaning all the dimensions are to within spec of the drawing, and it looks "right"
02:02 < kanzure> is it usually just single word strings "materialname" ? and if so, why isn't that on these drawings
02:02 < kanzure> I only briefly glanced at the xml and other files here, but I'm pretty sure it's not here
02:02 < fenn> but the problem is many engineers are clueless, so the shop guy has to reverse engineer the part from the drawing and figure out what's wrong with the drawing (usually because the dickhead didnt know that .001mm tolerance is infeasible, even though it's the default tolerance of his cad program)
02:03 < fenn> it's not there.. that's not really a part diagram, i think its just a sort of general sketch of the whole product
02:04 < kanzure> this is Wrong, right?
02:04 < fenn> of course it's wrong!
02:05 < fenn> these days the engineers dont even know how to make a "normal" shop drawing, the kind that everyone can read
02:05 < kanzure> what's the difference? the correct answer would include two links :p
02:06 < fenn> they only teach GD&T which is this cryptic symbology based on extracting the most detailed description of what you want in any possible situation
02:06 < kanzure> I haven't heard of this yet
02:06 < fenn> dont worry about it
02:06 < fenn> unless you're going to go work in a factory
02:06 < kanzure> 'geometric drawing and tolerance'
02:06 < fenn> geometric dimensioning and tolerance
02:06 < kanzure> but I thought you said it's engineers that use gd&t?
02:06 < kanzure> and supposedly I'm taking introductory engineering courses (whether or not this is true, I'm not sure)
02:06 < fenn> they do, but nobody else knows how to read it
02:07 < kanzure> so why a factory?
02:07 < kanzure> anyway
02:07 < fenn> because some poor sap has to translate between gd&t and regular shop drawings
02:07 < fenn> unless for some reason your factory workers went to engineering school
02:08 < fenn> its sort of like, one guy speaks calculus and the other speaks matlab
02:08  * kanzure wonders who uses oem machines :p http://oem.cadregister.com/ I kid
02:08 < kanzure> hm, if it's wrong, then this data set is pretty much useless
02:08 < kanzure> is there a way to make it useful without those annotations?
02:09 < kanzure> oh, right, forking it
02:09 < fenn> what annotations?
02:09 < kanzure> what the material is 
02:09 < kanzure> and other stuff
02:09 < kanzure> like equations governing its operation, or how to use it, or manuals, or technical documentation, all sorts of relevant stuff
02:09 < fenn> that's not a part drawing, there probably isnt enough information there to manufacture the parts in it
02:09 < fenn> (or use it)
02:10 < kanzure> parts drawing != the geometry of the part?
02:10 < fenn> STEP is supposed to handle all that stuff but it rarely does, because you need like 9 billion dollars of software to be able to read/write all that info
02:10 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/me302/ hurray for crappy file formats
02:11 < fenn> parts drawing is a drawing, geometry of the part is just geometry
02:11 < fenn> most cad formats include tolerances with the geometry, but not all
02:11 < kanzure> let me use more convenient terminology
02:11 < fenn> drawing must have tolerances for someone to make it
02:11 < kanzure> the 'geometry' seems to be 3D point/edge/line plotting
02:11 < kanzure> part drawing then is what?
02:12 < kanzure> what other information does it encode
02:12 < fenn> geometry is a solid, in this case using boundary representation, but can be implicit geometry like spheres or paraboloids or whatever
02:12  * kanzure notices that the oem.cadregister.com site must be made by a German. <title> is "Testeite" 
02:12 < kanzure> oh
02:13 < kanzure> and then drawing includes tolerances in terms of measurement variation? "within 10% of desired measurements"
02:13 < kanzure> 10% :-p
02:13 < kanzure> http://www.thomasnet.com/catalognavigator.html?cov=NA&what=Heaters&heading=37420106&cid=10061056&pdtl=A&CNID=&cnurl=http%3A%2F%2Fstegousa.thomasnet.com%2FCategory%2Ffan-heaters
02:13 < kanzure> ^ there's some metadata there
02:13 < fenn> drawing also must have material, surface finish. might have "clues" like wtf the part is for, or what each feature does
02:14 < kanzure> heating element, overheat protection, housing, axial fan, air flow free blowing, function control light, connection, mounting, position, dimensions, weight, operating temperature, storage temperature, protection type, protection class
02:14 < fenn> if you're lucky it will inlude fixturing/machining setups
02:14 < kanzure> oh
02:14 < kanzure> :)
02:14 < kanzure> so it'd be somewhat slightly usable
02:14 < kanzure> in comparison to these silly cad files that thomasnet is trying to sell me
02:14 < kanzure> 'sell'
02:14 < fenn> is that metadata for the part TIN31447 or just the ontology you found it within?
02:16 < fenn> (btw slight philosophical musing: "is" a fan a part or an assembly?)
02:22 < fenn> well the chinese finally made a cnc hobby mill: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=66052
02:28 < kanzure> http://cooperationcommons.com
02:28 < kanzure> argh, damn musings
02:28  * fenn yawns
02:28 < fenn> why cant all these cooperation websites cooperate
02:29 < kanzure> is gnu really all just stallman and torvalds?
02:30 < kanzure> this can't be true ..
02:30 < kanzure> I mean, it's the only way that explains anything getting done
02:31 < fenn> no, stallman is mostly a political figure these days
02:31 < fenn> and torvalds doesn't really finish what he starts
02:31 < fenn> but in general, yes, it's mostly just one or two guys per niche making 90% of the cool stuff happen
02:32 < kanzure> I'm pretty sure stallman is responsible for the original toolchain of the 80s
02:32 < kanzure> and then cygnus which had business support
02:32 < fenn> yes, stallman practically wrote all the posix stuff himself
02:32 < kanzure> but why did it catch on?
02:32 < fenn> cat ls du etc
02:32 < kanzure> I remember it being because people hated installing software
02:32 < kanzure> when they got new machines.
02:32 < fenn> because people were familiar with UNIX but hated the unix vendors
02:33 < kanzure> haven't we had this conversation before
02:33 < fenn> stupid license agreements, bugs that should have been fixed ten times already
02:34 < fenn> cygnus didnt add anything to GNU, just their own windows port
02:35 < fenn> also there was a fear that unix would just vanish into the encroaching sea of windows computers
02:35 < fenn> you were asking before about how stallman went about announcing his crusade
02:36 < fenn> and dredged up some old usenet postings
02:36 < fenn> (rather uninspiring i might add)
02:36 < fenn> it's kind of amazing anyone cooperated with him - oh wait, they didn't.
02:36 < fenn> that whole cathedral/bazaar thing
02:37 < jk4930> kanzure: why did it catch on? -> "worse is better". it pushed unix, it pushed FOSS later. ;)
02:37 < fenn> yep
02:38 < fenn> plan 9 is superior to unix
02:38 < fenn> linux is agonizingly slowly moving towards a plan-9-like system
02:39 < kanzure> I'm not sure when it comes to programming
02:39 < kanzure> I've seen some awesome programmers before that seem to be able to do the impossible,
02:39 < kanzure> for instance, it would seem like some of them could just go implement their own plan 9 file system for linux if they wanted to
02:39 < kanzure> but they don't.
02:39 < kanzure> not sure how easily it would happen with minor patches
02:39 < jk4930> maybe they did. but no one used it.
02:39 < kanzure> are big revisions doable with minor patches from multiple programmers?
02:40 < fenn> yeah and dont forget all the software that has to be fixed to use the new system
02:41 < jk4930> network effect + switching costs
02:45 < kanzure> fenn: metadata
02:45 < kanzure> not ontology
02:45 < kanzure> as for part v. assembly musings .. what would assembly imply?
02:45 < fenn> more than one part
02:45 < fenn> assembled
02:46 < kanzure> hrm
02:46 < fenn> generally the assembly has some separate metadata
02:46 < fenn> you can make a bridge out of i-beams and rivets
02:46 < kanzure> all things are made of other things, infinite divisables, 'atoms' not being 'atoms' ..
02:46 < kanzure> oh, 
02:46 < kanzure> assemblies do have extra data available?
02:46 < fenn> "atom" is not a part unless you're a nutase
02:46 < fenn> (nutase = enzyme that degrades nuts)
02:47 < fenn> i dont know as much about cad metadata as i'd like (they call it PDM) 
02:47 < fenn> you might want to interrogate ben in #cad
02:47 < fenn> or scott, or whatever his name is
02:48 < fenn> scanf
02:48 < kanzure> Okay.
02:50 < jk4930> ok, my compile has finished, here it's 5 am, good night. cu
02:50 < kanzure> well this is odd
02:50 < kanzure> http://www.thomasnet.com/catalognavigator.html?cov=NA&what=Boilers%3A+High+Pressure&heading=6113609&cid=10043403&pdtl=A&CNID=&cnurl=http%3A%2F%2Fmiura.thomasnet.com%2FCategory%2Fsteam-boilers
02:50 < kanzure> this has notably more data
02:50 < kanzure> some PDFs, 'system diagram', wiring diagram, schematic, dimensions, ..
02:51 < kanzure> me dislikes these interfaces that have a variable "surprise!" amount of data shown on each page
02:51 < fenn> that's the nature of the XML beast
02:51 < kanzure> hm? xml would be useful here though
02:51 < kanzure> if you come across something that you know you can deal with it
02:52 < fenn> er.. you are wishing for a schema right?
02:52 < kanzure> I'm wishing for a plain xml file for each of these products
02:52 < fenn> but any XML document can also have stuff that's not in th schema
02:52 < kanzure> schema would be extra / bonus
02:52 < kanzure> this is true
02:52 < kanzure> but at least it could theoretically be somewhat repetitive
02:52 < kanzure> i.e., if I come across something new,
02:52 < kanzure> I just need to look at it once and hit 1k other instances
02:53 < fenn> not following
02:53 < kanzure> why does this one use an 'autocad active x plugin' while the other heater thingy was using something else
02:53 < kanzure> uhm, well, if you have your xml script to process the xml data set
02:53 < fenn> oh, bad web design i'd guess
02:53 < kanzure> and you come across some element that makes you crash
02:53 < kanzure> then you look at it visually and make some updates and you're good for another few thousand xml files maybe
02:53 < kanzure> if they have random variables for each item, then it's totally useless
02:53 < fenn> one firm hired later on decided to just make their own system instead of extending what was there (?)
02:53 < kanzure> *for each xml file
02:54 < kanzure> right
02:54 < kanzure> that's what I'm guessing is going on
02:54 < kanzure> or they don't know what they are doing
02:54 < fenn> its not like anyone actually uses that info
02:55 < kanzure> heh
02:55 < fenn> you dont spend $500k and not call up the manufacturer for the datasheet/manual
02:56 < kanzure> let's say that you want to try to actually figure out which product to use, one out of a thousand alternatives, this needs to be somewhat ontologically meaningful .. not a phone number to go call and yell at somebody for the right information
02:56 < kanzure> for a thousand times
02:56 < kanzure> ugh
02:56  * fenn wonders how much a 4500hp boiler costs
02:57 < fenn> kanzure: this is why there are procurement departments
02:57  * kanzure doesn't know what this is: http://cadupdate.thomasnet.com/mythomas/signup.html?goto=http://updates.cadregister.com/updates.asp
02:57 < fenn> its someone's job to call up all these suppliers and yell at them
02:58 < fenn> i guess partspec/cadblock is some kind of integrated cad software database of stuff that's in thomasnet
02:59 < fenn> hm. a 'block' is like a class (like programming) in autocad
03:00 < fenn> except you cant do inheritance or anything cool of course
03:01 < fenn> Design professionals use the CADBlocks CD-ROM to insert pre-drawn architectural and building products into their CAD plans
03:01 < kanzure> hm
03:01 < fenn> Engineering professionals use the PartSpec CD-ROM to insert 2D and 3D drawings of parametrically designed mechanical parts into their CAD plans.
03:01 < fenn> etc
03:01 < kanzure> http://updates.cadregister.com/downloads/partspec.exe
03:02 < fenn> so not downloading that
03:03 < kanzure> 69 MB exe file
03:03 < kanzure> yeah ..
03:07 < kanzure> http://oem.cadregister.com/asp/PPOW_Entry.asp?language=GB&product=PS&referrer=V3Redirect&ori=/CADREgister.ppow&
03:07 < kanzure> I am confused
03:07 < kanzure> where did this come from?
03:08 < fenn> it's.. a list of manufacturers?
03:08 < kanzure> well, they said "please wait x seconds to be redirected to our new system"
03:09 < kanzure> but it looks like one half of their own website doesn't even know about this 'new system'
03:09 < fenn> so?
03:09 < kanzure> dunno, guess I'm still in hunt-for-technical-incompetence mode
03:10 < fenn> its pretty cool to see instant cad drawings of products i've looked at on the manufacturer's website
03:11 < fenn> sort of amazing that people put up with no antialiasing
03:11 < fenn> its 2008 ffs
03:11 < kanzure> terrible images.
03:30 < kanzure> 'Part drawings can be inserted with one click into: AutoCAD, Mechanical Desktop, Inventor, Solid Works, SolidEdge, ProEngineer, CATIA, Caddy++, HiCAD, TurboCAD, MegaCAD, TopSolid, SmartSketch, Technobox and IntelliCAD, for example.  To setup your CAD system inside PartSpec go to: Options --> Configuration --> Defaults and select your CAD system.
03:30 < kanzure> PartSpec allows the user to access literally millions of components, to create these parts parametrically and to transfer them to the appropriate CAD systems. '
03:31 < fenn> take "parametrically" with a grain of salt
03:32 < kanzure> lies?
03:33 < kanzure> but it says 'parts drawings' which is what you suggested might be slightly better than just plain 3d coordinate geom files
03:37 < kanzure> ' III. Known restrictions ----------------------- a) A correct presentation of shaded 3D-models is possible only with a
03:37 < kanzure>    color palette of at least 256 colors.'
03:50 < fenn> part drawing != shop drawing
03:50 < fenn> though one might hope so
03:51 < fenn> anyway 'part' doesnt necessarily mean one solid component, it could be an assembly (like a fan for example)
03:52 < fenn> sorry if i'm confusing things, but it's not my fault
03:53 < fenn> one thing you can count on is that a "shop drawing" will be one solid manufacturable component (unless it's an assembly diagram)
03:58 < fenn> some examples
03:58 < fenn> here's what i'm calling a "shop drawing": http://www.laboratoryformicroenterprise.org/lme/Drawings/2.1.2-1.gif
03:59 < fenn> here's an assembly diagram: http://www.laboratoryformicroenterprise.org/lme/Drawings/2.1-1.gif
03:59 < fenn> and here's an assembly diagram where each "part" is another assembly: http://www.laboratoryformicroenterprise.org/lme/Drawings/2-1.gif
05:00 < procto> I have just become a 23andme customer
05:00 < procto> they dropped their prices from $1000 to $400
05:07 < kanzure> procto: decodeme gives you a CVS file w/ SNPs listed
05:07 < kanzure> don't know if you get your data from 23andme
05:07 < kanzure> Hey spookact.
05:08 < spookact> ello kanzure
05:08 < procto> too late now. my personal genomics price ceilirg for thi- year was $500
05:08 < kanzure> spookact: What brings you? :)
05:08 < procto> I saw tim o'reilly la-t night and he actually broke the price drop for me
05:10 < spookact> kanzure: noticed this channel mentioned in #bioinformatics, and transhumanism just happens to be my specific area of interest :)
05:10 < kanzure> Aha.
05:10 < kanzure> :-)
05:10 < kanzure> Yes, you're in the right place then.
05:10 < kanzure> Today we've been complaining about thomasnet.com
05:10 < kanzure> or, I have at least
05:12 < kanzure> spookact: So, what brings you to the concepts of transhumanism ?
05:15 < spookact> kanzure: I'm originally from a programming background, long story short gradually shifted toward neuroscience and now I'm back in school
05:16 < spookact> read a few too many books like Kurzweil's and now I'm all ready to evolve :)
05:17 < kanzure> programming background, excellent
05:18 < kanzure> I find that I don't care too much for Kurzweil
05:18 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/fernhout/ for the f/oss programmer's perspective on kurzweil ;-)
05:18 < kanzure> sort of.
05:19 < spookact> haha I'll give this a read... I wasn't impressed by his "science" at all... it was more of a cheerleading effect
05:20 < kanzure> he's an "inventor"
06:53 < kanzure> Hey gene.
06:54 < gene> hello kanzure
06:55 < gene> apparently plastic seperation is a bit harder than it looks
06:57 < gene> which might make it harder to make a sea bound replicator
06:59 < gene> there's a bunch of plastic out there just floating around in a current
07:00 < gene> it's the size of Texas
07:01 < kanzure> coordinates?
07:01 < gene> it moves around I think
07:02 < gene> http://www.bestlifeonline.com/cms/publish/travel-leisure/Our_oceans_are_turning_into_plastic_are_we.shtml
07:02 < gene> the north pacific gyre
07:04 < gene> it's just a bunch of plastic garbage floating around in the water
07:04 < gene> plastic garbage just keeps on accumulating there
07:05 < gene> unfortunately, not all of it is thermoplastics
07:07 < gene> some of it is fishing line
07:09 < gene> from my experience, it doesn't melt
07:43 < kanzure> fenn: words suck,
07:43 < kanzure> isn't the solution typically to therefore acronymitize everything?
07:44 < kanzure> an ACP, acronym creation process
07:44  * kanzure has been reading too many papers
07:56 < kanzure> "KARMA represents ourfirst steps in designing a testbed for the knowledge-based generation of maintenance and repair instructions using a head-mounted, see-through display."
07:57 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/Knowledge-based_augmented_reality.pdf
08:00 < kanzure> http://heybyan.org/~bbishop/docs/Understanding_and_automating_algorithm_design_-_Elaine_Kanf.pdf
08:30 < kanzure> Ooh.
08:30 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/manufacturing/An%20intelligent%20agent%20for%20conceptual%20design%20-%20informed%20search%20using%20a%20mapping%20of%20abstract%20qualities%20to%20physical%20form%20-%20Koile%20-%20good.pdf
08:30 < kanzure> A way to deal with crappy user input. Consider it as having to be "repaired" to the baseline level, letting the user help to conduct such 'repairs'. Progression from ambiguity/abstraction -> parts in the db.
08:31 < kanzure> 'Abstract. In early stages of design, the language used is often very abstract. In architectural design, for example, architects and their clients use experiential terms such as "private" or "open" to describe spaces. The Architect's Collaborator (TAC) is a prototype design assistant that supports iterative design refinement using abstract, experiential terms. TAC explores the space of possible 
08:31 < kanzure> designs in search of solutions satisfying specified abstract goals by employing a strategy we call dependency-directed redesign: It evaluates a design with respect to a set of goals, uses an explanation of the evaluation to guide proposal and refinement of design repair suggestions, then carries out the repair suggestions to create new designs.'
08:32 < kanzure> 'dependency directed redesign' pg 4 in particular
08:47 < kanzure> ' DESIGN GRAMMARS FOR CONCEPTUAL DESIGNS OF SPACE STATIONS' http://www.isd.uni-stuttgart.de/forschung/publikationen/publikationen.html
08:48 < kanzure> bah, stupid paywalls
14:01 < nsh> kanzure++
14:06 < nsh> lol
14:06 < nsh> i searched "paywalls" and found a physicsforums thread you'd posted in
15:01 -!- fenn_ is now known as fenn
18:17 < kanzure> mom says http://rockler.com/ for swivels
18:30 < kanzure> nsh: I was being lazy. I don't know why, but I figured I'd rather crosspost to 20 different forums asking the same damn question, rather than phone 50 different university libraries asking them for a list of the journals and databases they subscribe to.
18:32 < nsh> quite
18:32 < nsh> mmm
18:33  * nsh is trying to think of a way we could share journal access credentials
18:33 < kanzure> I still need to torrent some of the paper archives I've been downloading.
18:33 < nsh> without giving each other our passwords
18:33 < kanzure> You can set up a proxy on your own machine.
18:33 < nsh> i suppose i could set up a proxy
18:33 < nsh> yeah
18:33 < kanzure> nsh: Are you aware of the ezproxy password trading circles?
18:33 < nsh> vaguely
18:33 < nsh> or i remember something similar
18:33 < nsh> please go on
18:34 < nsh> o/ biopunk
18:34 < kanzure> Botnets sniff out passwords of unsuspecting users, then the Chinese/Russians farm those out for a small fee to Chinese students that really, really need it, then they post those on forums to share with their brothren.
18:34 < kanzure> It's how I was reading papers before I realized I could cough up $40 for the local community college to give me access (by taking a class).
18:35 < nsh> interesting
18:35 < nsh> did you purchase or intercept?
18:35 < kanzure> Pardon?
18:35 < nsh> oh, nevermind, you probably found on one of the forums
18:35 < kanzure> yes
18:36 < kanzure> nsh: I think it would be wiser to write more spiders and archive papers for future reference.
18:36 < kanzure> I know that I might not be in a university forever
18:36 < nsh> aye
18:37  * nsh is working at the lab until the end of the year
18:37 < nsh> then i'll lose access
18:38 < kanzure> Hrm, it seems I have the full indices to sciencedirect. I just need to write some HTML::TreeBuilder code to save each paper to the write file name and with the right extra metadata (I will not repeat the same mistakes I made with nature ...).
18:39 < kanzure> Since it's 9 million papers I figure that I don't actually have enough hdd space for it. I was going to look for some structured data describing "impact factor" of journals by name, but ..
18:39 < nsh> mmm
18:39 < kanzure> well, there is a way to get that information - each journal on sciencedirect has a link to elsevier's other server, through some cryptic link of course, where they have this brief text snippit saying "impact factor: 3.2" which is, of course, yet another silly regex
18:40  * nsh nods
18:43 < nsh> btw
18:43 < nsh> how are classes going?
18:44 < fenn> is the amount of data available in journal articles keeping pace with the cost of storage technology or will we eventually be able to swap "all" of the articles out there?
18:44 < nsh> storage will win, i'd wager
18:45 < nsh> though there is exponential increase in the number of papers in some fields (biosciences), it's far more strongly bounded growth than storage capacity
18:45 < nsh> well, there is exponential increase in scientific data, at least
18:46 < nsh> submitted papers is probably not growing at quite that
18:46 < fenn> with bio stuff yes, but either it's a trade secret or patented or publically available
18:46 < fenn> so there's no real advantage to charging for access to bio information (yet)
18:47  * nsh nods
18:47 < nsh> looking for some stats
18:48 < fenn> "99% of statistics never lie"
18:48 < nsh> (finding it hard to think of sensible search terms for this kind of query)
18:49 < kanzure> nsh: Classes are going well. Chem prof is trying to teach his class how to solve Schrodinger's wave equation for polyelectronic atoms and the poor kids haven't even gone through diff-eq. "Building Brains" is ok, but I failed when I couldn't recite ASCII 'A' off the top of my head.
18:49 < fenn> open access bioinformatics
18:49 < nsh> heh: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15657104
18:49 < kanzure> Does anyone remember the Word DOC to HTML converter that I was using in 2006?
18:49 < nsh> as in, the ascii char number for 'A'?
18:50 < kanzure> nsh: Re: that link. Marcotte Lab was doing just the same for GRNs. They're doing supermassive correlation studies. This is the lab with the full yeast knockout library in their attic.
18:50 < kanzure> nsh: yes
18:50 < kanzure> I said 39, and it was 48
18:50 < nsh> meh
18:50 < nsh> what would it serve anyone to brainclutter with that?
18:50 < fenn> word doc to html?
18:51 < nsh> the point of the human computer symbiosis is that we can easily check simple things like that
18:51 < fenn> like `strings *.doc` >> foo.html
18:51 < kanzure> fenn: Somebody shoved a laptop under my fingers during the 'building brains' class and so I typed up the entire lecture in real time, but then it was in DOCX format and I cried.
18:51 < nsh> and so dedicate more brainspace to abstract, non-verbal conceptualisation
18:51 < fenn> why didnt you just save as some other format
18:51 < nsh> kanzure
18:51 < kanzure> nsh: No, I think that after all these years that's something I should be able to recall
18:51 < kanzure> so much debugging etc
18:51  * nsh smiles
18:51 < kanzure> fenn: because I must not have been thinking.
18:52 < nsh> but yeah, kanzure, i'd suggest audiorecording every lecture, then sharing the transcription load between members of the class
18:52 < kanzure> wvware
18:52 < kanzure> wtf, I would have never remembered that
18:52 < nsh> only one person needs to transcribe something for everyone to have a copy
18:53 < kanzure> nsh: my fingers are quick enough for it to not matter much
18:53 < kanzure> but yes, I agree
18:53  * nsh nods
18:53 < nsh> ideally, you'd share the work out, and have a multi-layered collaborative note-system
18:53 < nsh> so, audio/visual recordinging, transcript, wikilinked/referenced version, etc.
18:54 < fenn> ascii A is 65?
18:54 < nsh> then share comments and resolve queries on the material
18:54 < kanzure> fenn: crap.
18:54 < nsh> ultimately, this would feedback into a free (CC/whatever) textbook being generated for the next year's class
18:54 < fenn> why would you need to know that anyway?
18:54 < kanzure> right right
18:54 < kanzure> uhm.
18:55 < nsh> the incumbant year could accept donations from the succeeding year's students for efforts and costs incurred
18:55 < kanzure> How many times have you wondered wtf your program was doing, so printed out a char, and then had to go look up on the ascii tables to check? Those clicks can be reduced.
18:55 < fenn> more important is to know how to find the value if you need it
18:55 < nsh> actually
18:55 < nsh> it'd be nice to go meta on this
18:55 < kanzure> of couse, it's quicker to just do a quick script to check for you
18:55 < kanzure> nsh: the notetaking?
18:56 < fenn> printf(%X", char c)
18:56 < kanzure> rawr, yes fenn
18:56 < nsh> no, the information access question. 
18:56 < fenn> or %d if you prefer
18:56 < kanzure> nsh: to what extent?
18:56 < nsh> have a 'watcher' program, that keeps tabs on how often you are required to look up a certain thing
18:56 < nsh> when it reaches a predetermined threshold, have it suggest memorisation
18:56 < nsh> or locally mirror for a resource that you query often
18:56 < nsh> etc.
18:57 < kanzure> well, I was intending to start mirroring every page I ever view since I have the capacity for it
18:57 < nsh> so information that's needed often is more 'cached' than more rarely accessed info
18:57 < kanzure> and then "sift" and "filter" stuff to the top or bottom of the stacks
18:57 < nsh> right
18:57 < nsh> keep meta-data on correlations between use of various parts
18:57 < nsh> so automate semantic linking
18:57 < fenn> this is starting to sound like vannevar bush
18:58 < kanzure> my point is that we've already been over this
18:58 < kanzure> I'll get to it "eventually"
18:58 < nsh> fenn, the guy who came up with the microfilm internet idea?
18:58 < fenn> right
18:58 < kanzure> also, Phreedom, when he comes back, is doing some semantic desktop stuff that he's proud of
18:58 < nsh> Memex, right
18:58  * nsh nods
18:58 < fenn> the idea was that you could store different paths through the web
18:58 < kanzure> huh?
18:58 < nsh> right, it makes perfect sense
18:58 < kanzure> I don't remember this
18:58 < kanzure> I thought I knew Memex though
18:58 < nsh> every trail is data that should feed back into the system
18:58 < nsh> the internet needs to be activated
18:59 < kanzure> right, like that old 2006 comment on my front page on the iste
18:59 < kanzure> *site
18:59 < nsh> interaction should enrich it
18:59 < nsh> kanzure, can you paste it?
18:59 < kanzure> suggesting http://trexy.com/ and http://prefound.com/
18:59 < nsh> mmm
18:59 < kanzure> recording search/click paths through the web
18:59 < nsh> right
18:59 < fenn> these sorts of things can be easily spambotted or hacked with social engineering
18:59 < kanzure> semantics fails
19:00 < kanzure> that's why we need 'realistics' people!
19:00 < nsh> well, i think the wikipedia effect might mitigate that enough
19:00  * kanzure is ashamed of himself.
19:00 < fenn> you need trust networks, and additionally you need smart difficult-to-hack people to trust
19:00 < nsh> (i.e. enough 'good' people to negate the spam)
19:00 < nsh> trust networks and metrics are a quagmire that no-one has been able to escape yet
19:00 < nsh> i've yet to see anything workable
19:01  * nsh not touching with a long stick until some light is seen
19:01 < fenn> no, not to negate the spam, just to provide enough good content that there's something worth paying attention to
19:01 < nsh> right
19:01 < nsh> in a sense, it's an inertia problem
19:01 < fenn> spam is automatically removed by the trust network's filtering
19:01 < nsh> have to get enough good people rolling the ball before such obstacals are encountered
19:01 < fenn> and to keep it rolling once the unwashed masses jump on the bandwagon
19:01 < nsh> perhaps gmail's long-term beta + invitation strategy would work well
19:02 < nsh> aye...
19:02 < nsh> that's a whole nother kettle of fish
19:02 < nsh> perhaps tiering
19:02 < fenn> gmail invitation seemed more like reverse psychology to me than anything
19:02 < nsh> have an "inner party", "outer party" type thing
19:02 < fenn> 'you cant have it' so it must be good
19:02 < nsh> fenn, it certainly had that effect too
19:02 < nsh> to be fair though, at the time, it was objectively a great service
19:03 < nsh> o/ gene
19:03 < nsh> bye then
19:04 < nsh> so, when i was thinking about this trust stuff a few years back, i decided one good approach would be something you might call 'successive cementing', each person that follows a user's trail of contributions without reverting or forking them adds confidence to them
19:04 < fenn> An associative trail as conceived by Bush would be a way to create a new linear sequence of microfilm frames across any arbitrary sequence of microfilm frames by creating a chained sequence of links in the way just described, along with personal comments and side trails. 
19:04  * kanzure doesn't understand tust
19:04 < kanzure> *trust
19:05 < kanzure> fenn: just a scaffold/annotation/tracking dealy
19:05 < kanzure> Xanaduguys wanted it to be implemented into the backbone of the web
19:05 < kanzure> web-server-side
19:05 < fenn> yeah, it would be very easy to implement
19:05 < fenn> right now i mean
19:05 < kanzure> don't think so, they would have done it by now
19:06 < fenn> you have referrer urls, but nobody shares them, why?
19:06 < kanzure> all of the guys like us wanting it, I mean
19:06 < kanzure> is that all it would take?
19:06 < fenn> for a fragmented subset of trails, yes mostly i think
19:07 < fenn> of course there's spamming/spoofing of referrer url's, but that's a different problem
19:07 < kanzure> OpenOffice can do DFX / "AutoCAD interchange format" apparently
19:08 < kanzure> Can't quite find docx though
19:08 < fenn> i think this is what google analytics does sorta
19:09 < fenn> DXF compatibility is a .. um, chinese horse (cant think of the metaphor)
19:10 < fenn> DXF isnt a standard, it's just "whatever loads into autocad version 1.2.3.4 when the author wrote it)
19:11 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/school/buildingbrains/2008-09-12.html 
19:11 < kanzure> finally
19:12 < kanzure> that was a pain :)
19:12 < kanzure> also, the class is kind of a pain since it's going over basics at the moment
19:13 < fenn> is there any reason to believe it will ever progress beyond basics?
19:15 < kanzure> the drop out date has passed, so yes
19:15 < fenn> hey that's halfway decent translation to html
19:17  * kanzure just opened up a paper from the "Knowledge Based Engineering Laboratory" .. what else would it be ?
19:18 < kanzure> fantasy engineering?
19:18 < fenn> i think they mean explicit knowledge rather than implicit
19:19 < fenn> i.e. stuff you can put in a computer and frottage in various ways
19:19 < kanzure> this paper, "Function-to-form mapping - model, representation and applications in design synthesis" and http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/manufacturing/An%20intelligent%20agent%20for%20conceptual%20design%20-%20informed%20search%20using%20a%20mapping%20of%20abstract%20qualities%20to%20physical%20form%20-%20Koile%20-%20good.pdf
19:20 < kanzure> both take the approach of calling the user's idea _wrong_
19:20 < kanzure> that's why they're using a computer for design anyway, right?
19:20 < kanzure> if they knew the design they would just write it out completely
19:20 < kanzure> but since they don't, the user is wrong and the computer is there to repair the user's misconceptions
19:20 < kanzure> (with their help, of course)
19:21 < fenn> i think its just the user doesnt know what to do next
19:22 < kanzure> like the times I become completely confused and wonder what it was that I was supposed to be doing during the time that I am being confused
19:22 < kanzure> here's that other paper: http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/manufacturing/Function-to-form%20mapping%20-%20model,%20representation%20and%20applications%20in%20design%20synthesis.pdf
19:24 < kanzure> 'What to do next: Using problem status to determine the course of action - Get this article
19:24 < kanzure> DG Ullman, D Herling, BD Ambrosio - Research in Engineering Design, 1997 - Springer'
19:24 < kanzure> HEH
19:25 < fenn> stuff like this is so much easier to understand by example (rather than technical paper)
19:25 < kanzure> which 'this' are we talking about? "what to do next" or the "fixing how the user is wrong" paper?
19:26 < fenn> um, "model, representation, and applications in design synthesis"
19:27 < kanzure> Hey spookact.
19:27 < fenn> crap like this makes my eyes glaze over: "  Let us assume that an artifact, Artjk has been found in the
19:27 < fenn> design stage j with some elements of Artjk.Inp are in PSj.Inp
19:27 < spookact> hey kanzure
19:28 < fenn> <- REALISTIC
19:29 < kanzure> fenn: the professor was doing that the other day on the whiteboard in his office .. I had to chuckle since I'm coming from a perspective where I'm thinking only in terms of implementation, and there he was going off with all of this "fancy" abstract algebra :p
19:29 < kanzure> so much more simpler to just say "here's the code, fool"
19:30 < fenn> no shit
19:30 < fenn> at least i can play with the code to figure out how it works
19:30 < fenn> equations are useless
19:31 < kanzure> fenn: so, "what to do next" is a big question methinks
19:31 < fenn> somehow i think it's related to keeping their job, for if anyone saw how simple their ideas were they wouldnt seem worth paying attention to
19:32 < kanzure> I think the solutions are something like (1) try to retrace your steps back to the todo list you had in working mem, or (2) go sleep (which doesn't help as much).
19:32 < kanzure> right
19:32 < fenn> what to do next assumes you had a goal in the first place, which might not have been the case
19:32 < kanzure> but weren't you designing something?
19:33 < fenn> if i'm an architect fooling around in my studio (computer) i'm not necessarily working on a job for someone
19:33 < fenn> many times artists will come up with something on their own, and then later sell it as part of a commissioned project
19:34 < fenn> s/artists/engineers/
19:34 < kanzure> but let's say you're big business boss sitting in front of CAD (our type of cad, real design stuffs) and you want to make the most ultimate hamburger ever, you want x y z features, blah blah blah, now what.
19:34 < kanzure> the concept of "repairing" their specs into usable information is kinda nice but you claim it's not enough
19:34 < kanzure> or that it's the wrong approach
19:35 < fenn> are you talking about the difficulty of making an algorithm to satisfy given constraints?
19:35 < fenn> or just the human-prodding aspect of working on a project
19:35 < kanzure> sort of .. except the constraints need to be in terms of the system in the first place
19:35 < kanzure> and if they already knew that, then they wouldn't have troubles beginning to talk about it in terms that the system can work with
19:36 < kanzure> erm, knew that -> knew how to write it in that way
19:36 < fenn> ah, well, that's an interface problem
19:36 < fenn> all the usual power vs simplicity arguments apply
19:36 < fenn> (not that i necessarily agree with them)
19:36 < kanzure> guess I should make a trip over to c2
19:37 < fenn> what's c2?
19:37 < kanzure> c2.com, the oldest wiki ever?
19:37 < fenn> ah
19:37 < kanzure> http://c2.com/xp/BigDesignUpFront.html
19:37 < fenn> most of my c2 trails are related to philosophy and cat herding, strangely enough
19:37 < fenn> at least not explicitly programming stuffs
19:38 < kanzure> cat herding literally?
19:38 < kanzure> herding developers or something?
19:39 < fenn> crap like http://c2.com/cgi/wiki/quickDiff?CarFree
19:39 < kanzure> fenn: did you look at the idea of "repairing the user's specifications" ? if that's an interface problem, I don't see how it maps on to the typical interface arguments/debates like wysiwyg, do what I mean not what I say, etc.
19:39 < fenn> oddly enough that page references BigDesignUpFront in multiple places
19:40 < fenn> no, i didnt find "repairing the users specifications" in either paper
19:41 < fenn> wolfram seems to think that iterative design strategies suck
19:42 < fenn> design / evolution
19:43 < fenn> basically he showed how in a vast majority of cases, iterative algorithms will never be able to satisfy even a simple set of constraints (user specified goals)
19:44 < nsh> hmmm
19:44 < kanzure> fenn: from that page, wtf: "Bicycles have been used on the battlefield to great success, though I forget by whom. Basically, cars don't do very well in forested terrain, and men on foot as always move relatively slowly. " :)
19:44 < kanzure> fenn: methinks wolfram is right, iterative design does tend to suck
19:45 < kanzure> interesting
19:45 < fenn> it's true, bicycles were heavily used in WWII by paratroopers
19:45 < fenn> i saw some us army stuff about repurposing consumer mountain bikes for paratroopers
19:46 < kanzure> get those troopers a lightweight folding bike and they'll be happy .. always carry your mode of escape (or attack)
19:46 < kanzure> god I feel like a little kid racing down the street again
19:46 < kanzure> "charge!"
19:49 < fenn> wolfram on constraints: http://www.wolframscience.com/nksonline/page-342
19:49 < fenn> he doesn't really provide any other way to satisfy constraints though, so i can only guess that he prefers rule-based built from the ground up systems (which meshes nicely with c2)
19:51 < fenn> ok enough pdf's for me for now
19:51  * nsh thinks he ought watch a film
19:53 < kanzure> "So why does the procedure not work better? The problem turns out to be a rather general one. And as a simple example, consider a line of black and white squares, together with the constraint that each square should have the same color as its right-hand neighbor. This constraint will be satisfied only if every square has the same color--either black or white. But to what extent will an iterative procedure succeed in finding this solution?"
19:53 < kanzure> http://www.wolframscience.com/nksonline/page-345-text
19:54 < kanzure> "How can one avoid this? One general strategy is to add randomness, so that in essence one continually shakes the system to prevent it from getting stuck. But the details of how one does this tend to have a great effect on the results one gets."
19:54 < kanzure> evolution gets in a rut sometimes
19:54 < kanzure> that's where mutation comes in
19:55 < kanzure> in case recombination incests itself or something
19:58 < kanzure> where did I put my nks pdf
20:00 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/pub/ebooks/bookwarez/Science popularization books/Stephen Wolfram - A New Kind Of Science.pdf
20:00 < fenn> 82MB tho
20:00 < fenn> just images of the text from website
21:44 < fenn> will the miracles never cease: http://www.teafromtaiwan.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_6&products_id=10&zenid=036286f9c945d77a0de19966fb4bc398
21:52  * nsh had a good NKS pdf at one point
21:53 < nsh> could only ever find a half-buggered copy of GEB though
22:20  * kanzure found a physical GEB for $5
22:20 < kanzure> fenn: GABA tea? :-)
22:20 < kanzure> Can't you just go buy MSG in a store and be happy?
22:21 < kanzure> Not quite the same thing, nevermind.
22:21 < fenn> glutamic acid = MSG + vinegar or whatever, right?
22:23 < fenn> kanzure is "time line for distributed manufacturing" from some list or just bouncing around?
22:24 < nsh> don't eat MSG
22:24 < nsh> (if you can avoid it)
22:24 < fenn> why?
22:25 < nsh> because it's [excito]toxic
22:25 < fenn> please explain how it's worse than, say, soy sauce
22:27 < nsh> because the active chemical in soy sauce does not cause wreak havoc with your neuroreceptors?
22:27 < fenn> but it's the same chemical
22:29 < nsh> depends on the sauce i guess
22:29 < nsh> apparantly the levels are comparable
22:29 < fenn> i've never seen a good argument why MSG is bad, it might just be my poor researching skills, but i'm skeptical of most crazed foodie claims
22:29  * nsh would avoid using too much soy sauce also
22:29 < fenn> i think i remember reading something about contamination at an msg factory in the 70's, but i might be making tha tup
22:30 < nsh> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monosodium_glutamate#Health_controversy
22:30 < nsh> and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glutamic_acid_(flavor)#Health_concerns
22:30 < fenn> but really it looks like a general irrational fear of "chemicals" in food, and having no fucking clue what any chemical actually is
22:30  * nsh smiles
22:31 < nsh> MSG is implicated in a lot of disorders
22:31 < nsh> http://www.jpands.org/hacienda/article27.html
22:31 < nsh> and it's the ubiquity as well as the toxicity that has to be taken into consideration
22:32 < nsh> effects of neurodegeneration are cumulative
22:32 < nsh> and highly compensated
22:32 < nsh> you can be way past fucked-up before it's apparant
22:33 < fenn> lyme borreliosis? how is that caused by MSG!
22:33  * nsh has no idea
22:34  * nsh suspects someone just searched for papers which mentioned MSG and lyme borreliosis came up in the results
22:34 < spookact> ticks love flavor
22:35 < spookact> MSG makes your blood yummy :)
22:39 < fenn> "an unknown percentage of the population may react to monosodium glutamate and develop a monosodium glutamate symptom complex when consuming more than 3 grams of monosodium glutamate alone" who in their right mind is going to eat 3 grams of MSG
22:39 < fenn> that would be like snorting caffeine or chugging vinegar
22:40 < nsh> heh
22:43 < fenn> i'm all for accuracy in food labeling, but after reading all that it still just sounds like mass hysteria due to ignorance
22:43 < nsh> romans had their lead pipes.. time will tell :-)
22:44  * nsh tries to err on the side of not getting brainspazed
22:44 < fenn> but there's so many real poisons out there that nobody seems to give a shit about
22:45 < fenn> what about the stuff they dump on crops from airplanes by the ton
22:45 < nsh> :-/
22:46 < nsh> consumers have very little walletvote power on shit like that though
22:46 < nsh> which is probably why it gets less talktime
22:54 < kanzure> fenn: just bouncing around
22:54 < kanzure> nsh: I've had, bad experiences with MSG.
22:55 < fenn> what specifically? and what made you think it was MSG?
22:55 < kanzure> I remember when I was about seven or eight having some intense experiences in a Chinese restuarant that is still around
22:55 < kanzure> Trial and error to tell that it was the MSG on the lemon chicken dish.
22:56 < kanzure> We went out to eat often, so it didnt' take long for the parents to catch on.
22:56 < kanzure> *didn't
22:57 < nsh> what happened during these experiences?
22:58 < kanzure> Symptoms included some sort of intense headache or migrane, closing-in-of-vision kind of like when you're fading off to sleep and you jolt awake at the last moment, and general loss of activity 10 to 15 minutes after consumption begins. This probably means it wasn't the MSG since I don't think it gets into the blood that quickly.
22:59 < kanzure> I've actually been meaning to try some of it again to see how repeatable it is.
22:59 < fenn> sounds like a fun experiment :\
22:59 < fenn> "lets see if this gives me a seizure.. no? next!"
22:59 < kanzure> fenn: Mostly because of my fascination with GABA, glutamate receptors, and so on re: attention links.
23:00 < kanzure> 'Airway Effects of Monosodium Glutamate in Subjects with Chronic Stable Asthma' <- Hm, this would have been me at the time.
23:00 < kanzure> but I don't recall airway effects
23:01 < kanzure> 'This article reviews the literature from the past 40 years of research related to monosodium glutamate (MSG) and its ability to trigger a migraine headache, induce an asthma exacerbation, or evoke a constellation of symptoms described as the "Chinese restaurant syndrome."'
23:01 < fenn> my working hypothesis is that there is some contaminant in synthetic MSG that some people have an immune sensitivity to
23:01 < kanzure> http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118565688/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0
23:01 < fenn> do you have any unusual allergies?
23:03 < kanzure> No.
23:03 < kanzure> None to begin with.
23:03  * nsh doubts it's contamination
23:03 < kanzure> Although I was terribly sick child .. asthma + hyperactivity ftw ;-)
23:03 < nsh> glutamate's purpose, as a food additive, is to overexcite nerves
23:03 < kanzure> that wasn't the cause of course
23:03 < nsh> it's what it does...
23:04 < kanzure> nsh: Anxiety? I don't recall that being an enhanced symptom after consumption. 
23:04 < kanzure> Too long ago to remember.
23:04 < kanzure> although I am interested in substances that increase anxiety
23:04 < nsh> neural nerves, not emotional nerves :-)
23:04 < fenn> it's not to overexcite nerves, it's to make it taste like beef broth ( = hydrolyzed protein = amino acids)
23:05 < kanzure> $100 to anybody who can get me anxious enough to stop telling everybody all me sekr9ts or whatever
23:05 < fenn> and why isnt there some equivalent controversy over nitrous oxide in Guinness beer?
23:05 < fenn> or whipped cream
23:05 < spookact> increase anxiety? I'm more interested in decreasing :) I like my GABA, this big bottle of Ativan here says so
23:05 < kanzure> 'Is the Inattentive Type of ADHD a Separate Disorder?' <-- Haha.
23:06 < fenn> heh kanzure, your self-publicity is your greatest asset
23:06 < kanzure> "biohacking toolkit! bryan bishop!" <-- yeah, greatest asset
23:06 < kanzure> pfft
23:07 < kanzure> spookact: I can sometimes arbitrarily modulate anxiety. I also notice interesting correlations with those with abnormally high levels of anxiety.
23:08  * nsh has a somewhat dissociational reactionm to anxiety
23:09 < nsh> i am aware that i am physiologically anxious, but my conscious 'ego' (for want of a better term) is not overly affected
23:09 < fenn>  headache, flushing, sweating, swelling of the throat, chest pain, heart palpitations, and shortness of breath. <- sounds like immune reactions
23:09 < biopunk> kanz: between themselelves as a group or between you and them?
23:09 < kanzure> biopunk: themselves?
23:09 < kanzure> Who?
23:09 < kanzure> oh
23:09 < biopunk> you talked about correlations
23:09 < kanzure> Correlations as in, they have other interesting side-effects.
23:10 < biopunk> you don't feel anxiety?
23:10 < biopunk> cool
23:10 < nsh> it's interesting
23:10 < nsh> for example, if i'm asking a question in an important conference
23:11 < nsh> i can think quite rationally, though my heart races and voice starts to falter
23:11 < nsh> i think it's a relic of a close encounter with a psychotic break a few years ago
23:12 < nsh> during which i was constantly anxious over a period of a few months
23:12 < biopunk> it sounds like something very normal to me
23:12 < kanzure> 'The Center for Rapid Automated Fabrication Technologies intends to
23:12 < kanzure> construct "a building a custom-designed house in a day" by 2012. Does
23:12 < kanzure> that seem feasible?'
23:12 < fenn> not many people would describe that as 'close encounter with a psychotic break'
23:12 < nsh> that was just one aspect, fenn...
23:12 < kanzure> biopunk: No, I do experience anxiety.
23:13 < fenn> is "building a custom-designed house in a day" supposed to be an exhibit or something?
23:13 < biopunk> kanz... It's a good thing I think
23:13 < nsh> most classically symptomatic was an almost complete epistemological catastrophe, religious experience, delusions of grandeur, magical thinking, etc.
23:14 < nsh> *more
23:14 < kanzure> fenn: he goes on to mention hexayurt in the next paragraph, so take it with a grain of salt
23:14 < fenn> say.. seeing how this is #hplusroadmap, er, how do we engineer our way around psychotic episodes and MSG-attacks?
23:14 < fenn> kanzure: you dont like hexayurt?
23:14 < nsh> good early detection and aversion systems
23:15 < fenn> its not exactly a house.. but it's rapid fabrication
23:15 < kanzure> fenn: I thought you don't :p
23:15 < kanzure> 'Given the current industrial paradigm, we're all screwed. IKEA might have it right for the big places, but for the smaller places we really need to fix the broken dependencies.' (talking about material dependencies)
23:16 < kanzure> the latest post by Smuri on http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/ is interesting
23:16 < fenn> did i say that?
23:16 < kanzure> he's on some fucked up island south of Africa
23:16 < kanzure> and he can hardly get 4x8 plywood
23:16 < kanzure> so what's he supposed to do ? :)
23:16 < kanzure> fenn: methinks you did, I'll double check / not hold you to it (one of these)
23:16 < kanzure> I'll be right back .. need to steal some food from the cafeteria
23:16 < fenn> wow 20 messages in a day?
23:16 < kanzure> hm?
23:16 < fenn> openmanufacturing
23:16 < kanzure> meh
23:17 < kanzure> I've seen worse ;-)
23:17 < fenn> yeah but it's brand new
23:17 < kanzure> p2pfoundation.net is kind of seeding it
23:17 < fenn> oh.. did nathan cravens do anything else besides freeconomy?
23:17 < kanzure> not sure
23:17 < kanzure> rawr, bbl
23:19 < kanzure> re: material dependency brokenness -- this is why he's indeed fucked .. you shouldn't colonize unless you're damned sure you have the available materials, and if not, then you should be damned prepared to trade until the end of oblivvion
23:20 < fenn> trade? if he cant get what he needs, what to trade for?
23:20 < biopunk> the hexayurt was cool.. it was new to me
23:21 < fenn> i liked the inflatable radio antenna sitting next to it even better :{
23:21 < biopunk> ... i watched a youtube clip
23:51 < ybit> anyone know of say... a neuroengineering graduate school in spain? :)
23:51 < kanzure> in spain?
23:51 < kanzure> who the hell lives in spain?
23:51 < ybit> s? se?or
23:51 < ybit> ha
23:52 < kanzure> ybit: but seriously, the comp-neuro mailing list is full of europeans
23:52 < ybit> yep, but not seeing many positions posted for a spanish uni
23:52 < ybit> i think this may be the place, but catalan is annoying http://www.upc.es/
23:53 < ybit> while i'm at it, might as well diss the galician language as well :)
23:54 < ybit> if i live in spain, i want everyone to speak spanish! :P
23:55 < ybit> they don't have techshop, but they do have a fablab in barcelona
23:55 < ybit> speaking of, is your school going to get one kanzure?
23:55 < kanzure> Working On It.
23:56 < kanzure> ybit: Don't look for positions being posted.
23:56 < ybit> i'm not
23:56 < ybit> my email box is bombarded by them occasionally though, so i take a look
23:56 < kanzure> It shouldn't be too hard to retrieve a full list of universities in Spain.
23:56 < ybit> ah, and then spider for keywords, riight