--- Day changed Sun Sep 28 2008 02:25 < kanzure> Steve's brother really, really hates ESR apparently. 02:26 < kanzure> Something about terminfo being broken. 03:23 < kanzure> bkero: Know anything about Urszula Chajewska? 04:11 < bkero> Sorry 04:16 < ybit> concening skdb, instead of manually entering in information for a material, anyone want to share thoughts on using an "intelligent" (bot|program) to do classify and identify properties for the user 04:20 < kanzure> ybit: *cough* 04:20 < ybit> guess a realistic approach would just be to buckle down and enter in the info 04:20 < kanzure> ybit: you know I'm downloading matweb for a reason, right? 04:20 < kanzure> meep 04:20 < kanzure> http://designworld.matweb.com/search/datasheet_print.aspx?matid=44744 04:20 < kanzure> unless you mean automated material testing equipment 04:21 < ybit> what about fruit? 04:21 < ybit> plants 04:21 < kanzure> ? 04:21 < fenn> what about meat on a stick? 04:21 < fenn> or popsicles? 04:22 < ybit> :P 04:22 < ybit> Seed the database with a number of functional parts, components, tools, etc. 04:22 < ybit> * Basic: lemon battery 04:22 < fenn> fuck lemon battery 04:22 < kanzure> seeding, right 04:22 < gene> huh? 04:22 < ybit> from the wiki 04:22 < gene> why? 04:22 < kanzure> so that you don't have to manually enter all this bullshit 04:23 < kanzure> re: meat on a stick 04:23 < kanzure> or really just re: bio in general, 04:23 < kanzure> note that I've been working off and on that synthetic biology circuit creator app 04:23 < kanzure> so somehow biobricks fit into the scheme of things somehow 04:24 < kanzure> yet it's not obvious to me that it's appropriate to place 'biobrick' next to a 'gear' in the same dir for a db. meh. 04:24 < fenn> you dont like the debian "throw twenty thousand packages in the same dir" strategy? :) 04:25 < kanzure> no 04:25 < kanzure> just my typical turtle objections 04:25 < kanzure> the molecule is not the gene 04:25 < kanzure> erm 04:25 < kanzure> the protein is not the gene 04:25 < fenn> a biobrick is not a gear, unless of course it is 04:26 < kanzure> biobricks could /encode/ gears 04:26 < kanzure> does that still make it a gear? 04:26 < kanzure> just wondering. 04:26 < kanzure> I could go either way on this 04:26 < fenn> the gene is source code for the protein 04:26 < fenn> there are a number of ways we could have "source code" for a gear as well 04:27 < fenn> so how do you classify a gear generator program 04:27 * fenn grumbles about e-prime 04:27 < kanzure> are we going to have stupid N part generators? 04:27 < kanzure> compiler theorem 04:27 < fenn> N part? 04:28 < kanzure> any problem can be broken into smaller parts 04:28 < gene> what .stl files? 04:28 < kanzure> say you have these parts: gear, train, rocket 04:28 < kanzure> so are you going to infinitely splice this? 04:28 < kanzure> into smaller and smaller turtle shells ? 04:28 < kanzure> so we have a turtle shell generator? 04:28 < kanzure> that sounds unreasonable, frankly 04:28 < fenn> no, that leads to running a simulation of the universe, which is computationally impossible 04:28 < gene> huh what are you guys talking about? 04:28 < kanzure> so we don't need a gear generator 04:28 < ybit> sorry, was distracted, just got a txt from my mum. supposedly, some previous u.s. president is related to me somehow. whatever. how is the data being formated into uniform yaml files? 04:28 < kanzure> but maybe we need a gear-configurator, yes 04:29 < kanzure> which data, ybit? 04:29 < gene> just store em as stl files 04:29 < ybit> all of it 04:29 < gene> all of it 04:29 < fenn> a gear generator program is one layer of turtles up in the abstraction hierarchy 04:29 < gene> on magnetic tape or something 04:29 < fenn> stl is practically useless for manufacturing gears 04:29 < gene> then convert em in to g code 04:29 < kanzure> gene: stl is a step backwards here 04:29 < kanzure> please don't 04:29 < kanzure> no 04:30 < gene> I know it's an arbitrary file formate 04:30 < fenn> gene just shut up 04:30 < kanzure> ybit: you check the repo yet? 04:30 < ybit> autogenix? 04:30 < kanzure> no no 04:30 < kanzure> this is recent 04:30 < ybit> ah 04:30 < kanzure> ybit: http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/repo/ try one of the smaller files 04:30 < fenn> ok there's this abstraction hierarchy, going from "computer, build me a thing" to machines running machine code 04:30 < ybit> not yet 04:31 < kanzure> ybit: go look at a file in there that won't take forever to download 04:31 < kanzure> and that's the format that I've found out that the lab is working with 04:31 < kanzure> we need to improve this a bit 04:31 < kanzure> preferably in yaml of course 04:31 < fenn> genes are source code that eventually gets translated into DNA and then RNA and then protein 04:31 < fenn> but you can't store DNA in your database 04:31 < fenn> because it's on a hard disk 04:32 < gene> you can but it's tricky 04:32 < gene> there are dna databases out there 04:32 < gene> real meatspace dna 04:32 < fenn> yay 04:32 < gene> on bacterial plasmids 04:32 < fenn> i'm talking about SKDB 04:33 < fenn> skdb is supposed to be easily distributed via protocols like git and http 04:33 < fenn> therefore it cant contain a freezer full of eppendorf tubes 04:33 < gene> yup 04:33 < fenn> or a warehouse full of gear manufacturing equipment 04:34 < fenn> so, what was the problem? 04:34 < fenn> i look at some arbitrary chunk of metal and can confidently say "this ia a 10DP 52 tooth gear" 04:35 < fenn> or some protein is firefly luciferase 04:35 < fenn> if you dont like it, learn to speak e-prime 04:37 < gene> how do you compile it? 04:37 < fenn> compile what? 04:38 < gene> the gear, the luciferase 04:38 < kanzure> :) 04:38 < fenn> well, they are different "targets" 04:38 < fenn> one targets a gear hobbing machine and associated robots 04:38 < gene> indeed they are 04:38 < fenn> the other targets some dna sequencing machinery and expression vectors 04:39 < gene> a gear hobbing machine can only make gears 04:39 < fenn> not true 04:39 < gene> what else can it make? 04:39 < fenn> depends on the machine 04:39 < kanzure> ybit: anyway, what were you asking? or did I answer it already or something 04:40 < gene> a mill is more universal 04:40 < fenn> most machine tools are just three sliding parts and a spinning part 04:40 < gene> yup 04:40 < fenn> sometimes they have two spinning parts, these can be used as gear hobs 04:40 < gene> unless it's one of those fancy noncartesian setups 04:40 < fenn> but there are other problems, like how do you mount the gear, and do you have encoders on both spindles, and what tooling to use, etc 04:41 < gene> jigs 04:41 < gene> lots and lots of jigs 04:41 < kanzure> anybody remember where I put baez.zip ? 04:41 < fenn> try locate 04:42 < gene> jigs are pretty much the best method for automated construction 04:42 < fenn> what is a "jig" 04:42 < gene> a part that holds another part in place during assembly 04:43 < gene> say a part that holds a gear and part that connects with that to align the gears onto the rod 04:43 < fenn> why is it i'm picturing big blocks of metal with bolts all over them instead of a robot arm 04:43 < gene> it's sort of like that 04:43 < gene> except on the end of the arm 04:44 < gene> stratasys 3d printers are used to make jigs 04:44 < fenn> good for them 04:44 * fenn is so sick of hearing about 3d printers it's not funny anymore 04:44 < gene> Man I could really make you sick 04:45 < gene> ** printers are fairly universal 04:45 < fenn> you could synthesize some ebola and send it to me in the mail 04:45 < gene> NO 04:45 < gene> I don't synthesize ebola 04:45 < fenn> meh 04:45 < kanzure> guess it's not universal then 04:46 < gene> but, you could make parts to make a machine to make ebola 04:46 < fenn> if i did that, could i say the printer made ebola? 04:46 < fenn> what if i just pressed the green button, who did it? 04:46 < gene> sort of 04:47 < fenn> is anyone here a philosopher? please step into the chamber to your left 04:47 < gene> you pressed the button you caused it 04:47 < gene> been wanting to make a machine to click ok on EULAs for me 04:47 < fenn> what if we have a cat, in a box, with a gamma ray source 04:48 < gene> the cat dies 04:48 < fenn> there's a fifty-fifty probability the light will blink, based on whether our detector senses a gamma ray or not 04:48 < gene> nope 04:48 < fenn> if i see a blinking light i'll press the button 04:48 < fenn> at what time did the two trains pass? 04:48 < gene> green 04:49 < kanzure> god I'm confused. 04:49 < gene> why is a mouse when it spins? 04:51 < gene> this topic isn't very productive 04:51 < gene> it must be ended 04:51 < fenn> channel rule proposal: no philosophy 04:51 < kanzure> where will the turtles live? 04:52 < kanzure> am I missing messages or something? 04:52 < fenn> no 04:52 < kanzure> because those previous messages I'm seeing make very little sense 04:52 < gene> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jig_(tool) 04:52 < gene> jig 04:52 < fenn> do not adjust your computer monitor 04:53 < fenn> irssi is currently experiencing some mental difficulties 04:53 < kanzure> fenn: I was going to stop you after your first message to gene because I didn't see what you were going for 04:54 < gene> So you're worried about degradation with time? 04:54 < fenn> is it clear now? i can eloquate 04:55 < gene> "a single Fanuc two-armed robot assembles smaller robots using a three-dimensional vision sensor and six force sensors that correct random positional errors." 04:55 < gene> the answer is vision sensors 04:55 < fenn> a three dimensional vision sensor.. i want one of those 04:55 < gene> unfortunately 04:55 < gene> you have one already 04:55 < fenn> nuh-uh 04:56 < gene> unless you wear an eyepatch 04:56 < kanzure> stereo? 04:56 < gene> yeah 04:56 < gene> eyes 04:56 < gene> http://www.molecularassembler.com/KSRM/3.7.htm 04:56 < gene> source 04:57 < gene> Yes I know you guys hate freitas 04:57 < kanzure> not true 04:57 < fenn> i dont hate freitas, but i dont blindly believe everything i read in it 04:57 < fenn> or extrapolate to absurd degree 04:57 < gene> freitas has sticky fingers 04:58 < gene> back to the topic 04:58 < gene> how to replicate a camera 04:58 < gene> or 3d vision sensor 04:58 < fenn> that's the topic? 04:58 < gene> how do you replicate a camera 04:59 < kanzure> god, I haven't been this confused since the great freenode disconnect of 2006 04:59 < fenn> me personally, i havent replicated any cameras, but if i were to choose the simplest path it would probably involve a woman at some point 04:59 < gene> heh 04:59 < fenn> and a lot of extraneous production 04:59 < gene> I mean in a mechanical replicator 04:59 < fenn> i suppose the process could be simplified with a tank of guppies or something 05:00 < gene> hmmm... 05:00 < gene> guppies do have the computational power of a PS2 05:00 < fenn> is that so? who did you parrot that from? 05:00 < fenn> what is the computational power of a cup or warm tea? 05:01 < gene> not much 05:01 < fenn> what is "computational power" anyway? 05:01 < gene> Some dude trying to extrapolate to the singularity 05:01 < gene> so how do you make a ccd 05:02 < fenn> you take a slice of ultrapure silicon... 05:02 < ybit> ybit, you answered my question, essentially, it's a work in progress 05:02 < ybit> """ 05:02 < ybit> [23:19] and that's the format that I've found out that the lab is working with 05:02 < ybit> [23:19] we need to improve this a bit 05:02 < ybit> [23:19] preferably in yaml of course 05:02 < kanzure> ybit: work in progress as in, I'm too lazy to fix it *right now*. I should though. 05:02 < kanzure> if I was more awesome I would. 05:03 < fenn> spray some photo-mask solution on it, photo-sensitize the mask, spray some etchant on it, repeat with various patterns of etchant and dopants 05:04 < gene> by dope do you mean coat with thin film of metal? 05:04 < kanzure> are we talking typical semiconductor manufacturing? 05:04 < kanzure> no 05:04 < gene> ok 05:04 < fenn> no, dopants are usually salts that diffuse into the silicon 05:04 < gene> so shoot ions at it 05:04 < gene> btw 05:05 < kanzure> this is all so random 05:05 < gene> I have always wondered 05:05 * fenn blames gene 05:05 < kanzure> I have a strong urge to go read ruby docs now. 05:05 < gene> how do they keep the wafers aligned during manufacturing 05:05 < fenn> with piezo stages 05:05 < fenn> and alignment marks 05:05 * fenn pulls explanation out of ass 05:05 < gene> that's bad 05:06 < ybit> manufacturing of CCDs is interesting 05:06 * ybit listens 05:06 < ybit> and i'm spent 05:06 < gene> piezoes are hard to replicate 05:06 < fenn> you know i'm just making all this up.. if you really want to know, go read a book 05:06 < gene> they require exotic elements 05:06 < gene> that actually sounds about right 05:06 < ybit> kidding of course 05:07 < gene> even worse 05:07 < gene> they move the whole damn mask around 05:08 < gene> over the whole chip 05:09 < gene> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepper 05:09 < kanzure> Steve's thinking we're going to be needing an ontology of ways for parts to be in surface contact, in order to get the subcomponents in designs working correctly, for simulation and such 05:11 < ybit> kanzure, kind of on-topic with fenn and gene, i remember you asking me what i would be doing in my research project, it's essentially ccd image reductions with iraf, nothing special. see http://iraf.net/irafdocs/# for more details 05:12 < fenn> kanzure: you mean like, helical=nut/bolt, planar=chip/heatsink ? 05:12 < kanzure> sort of. also glues between things, too 05:12 < fenn> a lot of that is what i call 'interfaces' 05:12 < kanzure> i.e., given any two parts that are next to each other, WTF is their interface and how does that influence the simulation? 05:13 < gene> maybe you should think of it in terms of force 05:13 < kanzure> the big example of what I'm thinking of is the car design scenario 05:13 < kanzure> two sheets of metals in various shapes 05:13 < kanzure> how do they connect? 05:13 < gene> Kanzure, you really need to learn statics 05:13 < kanzure> this greatly influences CFD/aerodynamics 05:13 < fenn> it's more generic than that, you have to worry about electrical and chemical interfaces too 05:13 < kanzure> yep 05:13 < gene> or solids 05:13 < kanzure> oh boy. 05:13 < kanzure> well, I know that there are chemical simulations 05:13 < kanzure> but this is highly domain dependent 05:13 < kanzure> right? 05:14 < gene> they have methods for describing things such as ball joints, rollers, bearings and such 05:14 < gene> so you can calculate the forces on them 05:15 < fenn> there are a lot of unpredictable ways that interfaces can interact 05:15 < kanzure> Steve thinks 'geometrical computations' are the only showstoppes here 05:15 < kanzure> hrm 05:15 < fenn> there are also predictable ways, which i think we should focus on 05:15 < kanzure> give me something other than geometry that is a Big Deal 05:15 < gene> sand 05:15 < fenn> why is geometry a Big Deal? 05:15 < gene> sand can clog up parts 05:16 < kanzure> fenn: two sheets of metal example 05:16 < kanzure> how do you specify two metals and their interface? 05:16 < kanzure> one has more stress than another; etc. there's shape involved there. 05:16 < kanzure> you don't just have it magically determine the most optimal shape or something. 05:16 < kanzure> there's all sorts of variables on shape. 05:16 < kanzure> uhm 05:16 < gene> well what are you trying to make 05:16 < kanzure> I'm not sure if that's a good characterization o the problem 05:16 < kanzure> SKDB 05:16 < fenn> there's all sorts of ISO fit classes, is that helpful? 05:17 < gene> what needs to be made from metal? 05:17 < kanzure> fenn: I'm trying to track down a link. 05:19 < fenn> there should be a standard process for flexible chip fab 05:20 < kanzure> no, I mean, 05:20 < fenn> so you can run your chip through, and they align the mems mirror array according to your cad spec 05:20 < kanzure> could you help me find a ref to ISO fit classes 05:20 < fenn> oh, yes, sorry 05:20 < gene> photosensitize the chips with lasers 05:20 * kanzure kicks google 05:20 < gene> or even better a electron beam 05:20 < fenn> iso = information scarcity organization :) 05:20 < kanzure> http://www.gizmology.net/nutsbolts.htm maybe 05:20 < kanzure> heh 05:21 < gene> yeah, Kanzure you need to learn solids 05:21 < gene> that is solids 05:22 < gene> you have to do Finite element mesh to model solids correctly though 05:22 < kanzure> FEM isn't a big deal 05:22 < kanzure> unless I'm supposed to do it on paper 05:22 < gene> good 05:22 < fenn> yeah the nuts/bolts thing is representative, they also have other classes for pegs in holes and so on 05:22 < fenn> all rather arbitrary if you ask me 05:23 < kanzure> classes 1 through 4 05:23 < kanzure> yep 05:23 < kanzure> arbitrary. 05:23 < kanzure> this doesn't help much with the issues 05:23 < fenn> no 05:24 < kanzure> maybe I'm missing something. are there general principles for dealing with the different iso fit classes? 05:24 < fenn> it just makes it easy to write "H7" on a shop drawing 05:25 < fenn> GD&T is more general and "pure" but it's harder to read and write 05:25 < kanzure> write? 05:25 < kanzure> what? 05:26 < fenn> with a pencil 05:26 < fenn> here read this http://www.efunda.com/designstandards/gdt/introduction.cfm 05:28 < fenn> tat's kinda long but at least you'll know wtf i'm talking about 05:30 < kanzure> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V1P-4MNRMXW-2&_user=108429&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=108429&md5=f138e2c93b47ea0fa213557c78658776 Flexural behaviour of bonded-bolted butt joints due to bolt looseness 05:31 < gene> what does the link concern 05:31 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/manufacturing/Flexural%20behaviour%20of%20bonded-bolted%20butt%20joints%20due%20to%20bolt%20looseness.pdf 05:32 < gene> bolt looseness? 05:32 < gene> oh shoot 05:32 < gene> I think I found a problem 05:32 < gene> with space replicators 05:33 < gene> metal parts cold weld in a vacuum 05:33 < gene> never mind not a problem 05:34 < gene> for what I was thinking about 05:34 < fenn> metal parts cold weld just about anywhere 05:35 < gene> but especially in vacuums 05:35 < gene> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_welding 05:36 < gene> you just oxide coat your metal parts 05:36 < gene> to avoid it 05:38 < gene> Product design by an advanced "expert system" software package or by humans remotely or interactively, using a computer design system that stores data on models, computes optimal designs for different options, displays results for approval, and allows efficient process iteration. 05:38 < gene> Production planning, an optimized plan for the manufacturing processes generated by a computer on the basis of product-design outputs, scheduling, and line-balance algorithms, and varying conditions of ore-feedstock deliveries, available robot resources, product mix and priorities. Planning includes routing, timing, work stations, and operating steps and conditions. 05:39 < gene> guess someone already thought of SKDB 05:39 < gene> http://www.molecularassembler.com/KSRM/3.7.htm 05:39 < kanzure> everybody's *thought of* it 05:39 < kanzure> http://adciv.org/ 05:39 < kanzure> http://peoplescapitalism.org/ 05:39 < kanzure> http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:Design 05:40 < kanzure> http://oscomak.net/ 05:40 < gene> yeah 05:40 < gene> I hope we actually implement it 05:42 < fenn> i wish everybody had already thought of it, then i wouldnt have to explain every damn time 05:44 < gene> and i wish I had a particle accelerator in my dorm room 05:45 < fenn> hah - i've got one right next to me 05:45 < fenn> it's a Mazellan 05:46 < gene> what's a Mazellan 05:46 < fenn> Hansol Mazellan 400A 05:47 < gene> nah 05:47 < fenn> i've got another one, of a different design 05:47 < gene> how many KV 05:48 < gene> how dense is the beam? 05:48 < fenn> a couple kV.. no fancy model name/number 05:48 < fenn> made by Ionizair 05:48 < fenn> beam width is about 10cm 05:48 < gene> too bad 05:49 < gene> Dang i though the beams on those things were smaller 05:49 < gene> like the size of a the pixels or something 05:49 < fenn> well, it's not circular or gaussian, it's planar 05:49 < fenn> about 2cm in the other dimension 05:50 < gene> is that really how big the beam is on tvs and such? 05:50 < fenn> no, this isn't a TV 05:51 < gene> they both use beams of electrons to light up phosphors 05:51 < fenn> no, this uses beams of ion to accelerate a working fluid gas 05:51 < gene> huh? 05:51 < gene> plasma 05:51 < gene> of course 05:52 < fenn> you can barely see the plasma actually, has to be totally dark 05:52 < fenn> then you will see it at the tips of the field concentrators 05:53 < gene> Ok I am confused 05:53 < fenn> i dont like sticking my face up that close though, too much ozone 05:54 < gene> your monitor makes fucking OZONE? 05:54 < fenn> it's not a monitor 05:54 < gene> what the heck is it? 05:54 < fenn> an air purifier, silly 05:55 < gene> heh 05:55 < gene> that's sort of a particle accelerator 05:55 < kanzure> " Uh, well, if an implementation detail constraint is logically implied by known design constraints, then coming up with an implementation that has that detail is part of what the optimizer's job is" 05:55 < fenn> actually i guess it's planar gaussian beam profile 05:56 < gene> in other words 05:56 < gene> just run it through a genetic algorithm 05:56 < fenn> GA has to start with something that works 05:56 < gene> yup 05:57 < fenn> before GA you have to use monte carlo or something that covers the whole search spce 05:57 < gene> you can start with something that doesn't work 05:57 < gene> but that takes too long 05:57 < fenn> if it's stuck in a local minimum that doesn't work, probably wont ever get out of it 05:58 < gene> ever read Prey by Michael Crichton? 05:58 < fenn> no 05:58 < gene> dang 05:58 < gene> you just start accepting stuff with lower fitness levels 05:59 < kanzure> fenn: Steve is suggesting compartmentalized optimizers. So each turtle layer gets an optimizer. 05:59 < kanzure> with each optimizer trying to figure out the lower layer's results. 05:59 < fenn> yes that simplifies things a lot 05:59 < gene> speaking of GAs check this out: http://www.framsticks.com/ 05:59 < fenn> black-boxing 06:00 < gene> could you document all this stuff about turtles? 06:00 < gene> so that I can start understanding it 06:01 < fenn> turtle just means abstraction layer 06:01 < fenn> "it's turtles all the way down" 06:01 < gene> abstraction layer means 06:01 < kanzure> fenn: he doesn't do programming 06:01 < fenn> oh ffs 06:01 < gene> yes I don't 06:01 * kanzure knows gene is thinking "fuck" 06:01 < kanzure> yep 06:01 < kanzure> :) 06:01 < gene> indeed I am 06:02 < fenn> this is sorta hard over text-based medium 06:02 < kanzure> http://www.whatisthought.com/bayes2.ps 06:03 < gene> abstraction layer you mean like concepts? 06:03 < kanzure> uh. 06:03 < kanzure> forget everything you know about english 06:03 < fenn> english is an abstraction layer 06:04 < gene> oh so what you call the parts 06:04 < fenn> i point in the direction of a collection of hair, bones, whiskers, claws, and teeth 06:04 < kanzure> fenn: best to have him do hard experience first before poisoning his mind 06:04 < fenn> we call it a "cat" 06:04 < gene> I am starting to see what you mean 06:04 < fenn> i point at a collection of subatomic particles, we call it "iron" 06:04 < gene> I was thinking that SKDB should imitate what the brain does 06:04 < gene> it looks like you already are 06:05 < fenn> brain doesn't do abstraction, it does categorization 06:05 < gene> I can't read .ps files 06:06 < fenn> some paper about bayesian tree algorithms 06:06 < fenn> not relevant 06:06 < kanzure> gene: you might as well ignore it, I'm not sure of its relevance really 06:06 < gene> ok then 06:07 < gene> but what I was thinking is that you make a program that is brain like 06:07 < fenn> we dont know enough about how the brain works to do that 06:07 < gene> have it read stuff online to "learn" how things work 06:07 < gene> but we know the basics 06:07 < fenn> and if we did, it would be a bad idea anyway, because then your program would get tired and lie to you and generally have all the problems that humans do 06:08 < gene> why would it lie? 06:08 < fenn> (and skdb is not yet another agi project) 06:08 < gene> I'm talking about something with the intelligence of a cow here 06:08 < gene> and maybe not even that 06:08 < kanzure> what the fuck is intelligence 06:08 < fenn> yes let's please not go down the philosophy pit 06:09 < fenn> gene have you ever played video games? 06:09 < gene> yes 06:09 < fenn> video games are full of simplified abstractions that are presented more or less directly to the player 06:09 < fenn> press a button, door opens 06:09 < gene> ok 06:10 < fenn> there's no fine-grained simulation of joined pieces of wood going on 06:10 < gene> that's sort of what I am hitting at with the brain thing 06:10 < gene> fire can be made by making wood hot 06:10 < kanzure> gene: there are neural networks that can be modularly involved with the automated design work 06:10 < kanzure> we're calling it "rule rewriting" 06:10 < kanzure> which is just connectivity rewiring in design graphs 06:10 < kanzure> this is _not_ a one-to-one mapping 06:11 < kanzure> in conceptspace. 06:11 < gene> ok 06:11 < fenn> rule rewriting? 06:11 < gene> I am just wondering about having something to put stuff into SKDB automatically 06:11 < kanzure> http://www.whatisthought.com/eric.html has some papers including "Where Genetic Algorithms Excel" 06:11 < fenn> (i didnt download your zip file) 06:11 < kanzure> graph rewriting rules, sorry 06:12 < fenn> isnt a graph just a collection of connections and nodes? 06:12 < kanzure> given such and such in the graph, try such-and-such 06:12 < kanzure> yes 06:12 < fenn> so what is there to change? 06:12 < kanzure> these are possible mutation operators 06:12 < kanzure> well 06:12 < kanzure> imagine what you'd write to go through all possible designs 06:12 < kanzure> (much like the schedule optimizer) 06:12 < kanzure> instead of going through them one by one you would be making some rather large jumps 06:12 < fenn> all possible designs = an infinite set 06:12 < kanzure> correct! 06:12 < fenn> -_- 06:13 < kanzure> so you have an upper limit, like 10 million, but the first 10 million might just be going down the left hand side of the tree 06:13 < gene> only some will be autocatalytic 06:13 < kanzure> fenn: so obviously we don't want to be left-hand-travelers, right? 06:13 < kanzure> fenn: so that's why we use some graph rewriting rules. 06:13 < fenn> i dunno, maybe the left hand path is imbued with certain mystical powers 06:13 < kanzure> heh :) 06:13 < kanzure> theoretically, there might be some rewriting rules that tend to work for certain problem domains 06:14 < fenn> what basis is there for thinking that? 06:14 < kanzure> none whatsoever, I just want to see really 06:14 < kanzure> isn't that why we're doing turtle optimizers though? 06:14 < kanzure> superturtle 06:14 -!- superautomation is now known as superturtle 06:14 < fenn> we're doing turtles because it reduces the amount of computation necessary 06:15 < kanzure> or because we know no other way. 06:15 < kanzure> heh 06:15 < fenn> sure, nobody has found the theory of everything 06:15 < superturtle> right 06:16 < kanzure> erm, wrong face 06:16 < fenn> and if we knew it, it would just be equivalent to running another instance of the universe 06:16 < gene> we might have found the theory of everything 06:16 < fenn> stuff it 06:16 < kanzure> hahah 06:16 < gene> but we don't know if it is right 06:17 < gene> and using it for automated design like this would be very impractical 06:17 < fenn> gah, gene you should change your nick to train-derailment 06:17 < gene> ok 06:18 < fenn> so, graph recombination is good for GA's for some reason, that's why we have sex and gene splicing and so on 06:18 < kanzure> sure. 06:18 < kanzure> oh 06:18 < kanzure> it's not just recombination though 06:18 < kanzure> from previous designs. 06:19 < gene> it's imperfect recombination 06:19 < fenn> if i 'recombine' one element, is that any different from a random mutation? 06:19 < kanzure> might not be entirely random 06:19 < kanzure> but no, not much different 06:19 < fenn> what's a non-random mutation? 06:19 < gene> do you know about meiosis fenn? 06:19 < fenn> yes 06:20 < gene> good 06:20 < kanzure> suppose a subvariable has a linear improvement curve on the output of a simulation 06:20 < kanzure> oh god, what did I just write 06:20 < kanzure> I mean to say that it's no longer a PDE 06:20 < kanzure> and a mutation in a certain direction offers some amount of improvement 06:20 < kanzure> I don't know how this integrates 06:20 < kanzure> let me shut up 06:20 < fenn> ok so you think the algorithm is smart enough to extrapolate the curve and set the variable to maximum 06:20 < gene> I believe that is sort of what GA's do with regards to combinationt 06:20 < kanzure> user/designer is the guy changing from single-mutation to GA 06:20 < gene> DIRECTED MUTATION 06:21 < gene> are you fucking crazy? 06:21 < fenn> user/designer is doing the mutation? 06:22 < fenn> rawr not enough context 06:22 < fenn> i assume this has something to do with ADL 06:22 < fenn> or DEL or whatever you call it these days 06:22 < kanzure> no, user/designer is saying "I hate this you bitch, give me something better" 06:22 < gene> heh why not use lamarkian evolution 06:22 < kanzure> in other words 06:22 < kanzure> he's denying/affirming the rewrite rules 06:22 < kanzure> "show me things less with rule #34" 06:22 < gene> heh 06:22 < fenn> so the user is requesting the computer perform a random mutation? 06:22 < gene> oh 06:23 < kanzure> on some set of designs with graphs 06:23 < gene> that's easy to do 06:23 < kanzure> sometimes, yes, fenn 06:23 < kanzure> but the user isn't specifying which mutation to make, really 06:23 < gene> GAs can be quite pesky 06:23 < fenn> i just dont get what these rules are doing in the first place 06:23 < gene> they cheat 06:23 < gene> they take advantage of physics system glitches 06:23 < fenn> we all do 06:24 < gene> well I need sleep 06:24 < fenn> he's gone! :) 06:25 < kanzure> WTF is he 06:26 < kanzure> rewriting the connectivity of the graph. 06:26 < kanzure> okay, so in the HTML example 06:26 < fenn> i wish i could just download information into other peoples' brains sometimes.. 06:26 < kanzure> what I was going to implement. 06:26 < UtopiahGHML> fenn: learn pedagogy 06:26 < kanzure> or don't 06:26 < kanzure> just eat the newbies for breakfast 06:26 < fenn> i'm too nice 06:26 < kanzure> me too :( 06:27 < kanzure> HTML example => graph was the HTML elements as nodes 06:27 < fenn> ok 06:27 < kanzure> rewrite would transform one recognized "chunk" of HTML into another chunk 06:27 < kanzure> predefinededly. 06:27 < UtopiahGHML> you can learn manipulation instead but I think it's pretty close anyway. 06:28 < fenn> transform one chunk into another chunk- please elaborate on that 06:28 < kanzure> http://www.cs.mdc.ac.uk/research/PhDArea/saeed/paper1.pdf 06:28 < kanzure> fenn: HELLO <-- Wrong. That type of element closure could be recognized and rewritten as something else. 06:28 < kanzure> huh 06:28 < fenn> Unknown host www.cs.mdc.ac.uk 06:28 < kanzure> error correction is actually a good example 06:28 < kanzure> but obviously we're not interested in correcting errors 06:28 < kanzure> erm 06:28 < kanzure> wait 06:28 < kanzure> errors have unrecognizable forms usually 06:29 < kanzure> bad example. shit. 06:29 < fenn> html has a syntax which defines the order characters are allowed to be arranged 06:29 < fenn> within that syntax you can make arbitrary rearrangements 06:30 < kanzure> s/characters/nodes/ and I'd say you have the idea 06:30 < kanzure> erm 06:30 < kanzure> I mean s/characters/elements/ 06:30 < kanzure> with the understanding that elements == nodes 06:30 < UtopiahGHML> you might to look at XHTML then XML then SGML if you want to understand HTML structure 06:31 < fenn> syntax defines something like text 06:31 < kanzure> Been dong that for years, UtopiahGHML ;-) 06:31 < kanzure> correct fenn. 06:31 < fenn> syntax says nothing about what "text" should be 06:31 < kanzure> oh, ignore text right now 06:31 < kanzure> just imagine that autogenerated latin BS ther 06:31 < kanzure> there 06:31 < fenn> lorem ipsum dolor sit amet 06:32 < kanzure> yes, that crap 06:32 < kanzure> in HTML, you have parent nodes and subnodes 06:32 < kanzure> <hi I am a child of title></hi I am a child of title> ...... 06:33 < fenn> and there is a grammar for those as well 06:33 < kanzure> reword 06:33 < kanzure> are you trying to affirm me? 06:33 < fenn> body tag can't be child of head tag 06:33 < kanzure> sure 06:33 < kanzure> that's a good constraint to mention. 06:34 < UtopiahGHML> might want to look at DOM and libexpat 06:34 < fenn> ok, where's the "rule" you're wanting to rewrite 06:34 < kanzure> uh oh 06:34 < kanzure> okay okay 06:34 < kanzure> that's just because of bullshit terminology 06:34 < kanzure> *you're* making a rule *for* rewriting the graph 06:35 < fenn> is a rule just an algorithm for satisfying constraints? 06:36 < kanzure> rule: you see a,b,c you turn it into a->b, b->c, so if I give you a randomly generated graph you look for matches for that rule to apply. 06:36 < kanzure> erm, stupid syntax there. commas would be nonconnections, -> would be a connection. 06:36 < UtopiahGHML> if you want to define rule of a well formed XML document (including XML) you might want to look at DTD 06:36 < kanzure> uhm, it could go either way so I guess I didn't need to send that less message 06:36 < fenn> yes UtopiahGHML we understand, we're not talking about html, we're talking about engineering design graphs 06:36 < kanzure> UtopiahGHML is right in a sort of different way 06:36 < kanzure> DOM is relevant, sure 06:37 < kanzure> BNF files are useful in a certain way too, but we're talking about looking at an example/sample file 06:37 < fenn> DTD is just a constraint grammar i think 06:37 < kanzure> right 06:37 < kanzure> something like that. 06:37 < UtopiahGHML> fenn: well to me it looks like you are talking about the underlying technical structure to support them and maybe using a lot of energy for things that doo already exist so Im just throwing suggestions in 06:37 < kanzure> the DOM could aide in some of this 06:38 < kanzure> argh 06:38 < kanzure> how do I word how this is not DOM? 06:38 < kanzure> I give you a graph. You see a graph. I give you a rule, "when you see this, you change it into this". You implement rule, painfully checking the whole graph. NP-hard. You cry. You finish. You didn't really check the DOM except maybe to make sure the rule wasn't retarded. 06:38 < UtopiahGHML> if it's an HTML document you can manipulate it with DOM (but it should be well-formed) 06:39 < fenn> DOM is totally unrelated 06:39 < UtopiahGHML> DOM manipulate nodes of a tree, HTML document are trees. 06:39 < kanzure> by retarded I mean "breaking the well-form-edness constraints" 06:40 < kanzure> get it? 06:40 < kanzure> fenn? 06:41 < fenn> what is the engineering purpose of the rule? what's the desired outcome? 06:41 < fenn> is it to prevent square pegs in round holes? 06:42 < kanzure> oh, yes 06:42 < kanzure> but also 06:42 < kanzure> consider you have a set of designs, and you have a list of the rules used to make each of them (and thus all of them) 06:42 < fenn> because i'd say that should be automatic, and why would the user be modifying a rule that prevented something obviously stupid? 06:42 < kanzure> and you figure you don't like the results of a particular rule application 06:42 < kanzure> so you just eliminate all results using that rule 06:43 < UtopiahGHML> because the user doesn't understand a software or model like the author indented it to be understood... 06:43 < kanzure> then user preferences might develop for certain rules. would be worth keeping track of, no? then you can switch between exploration v. exploitation (SA v. GA) with the 'knob' mechanism I was mentioning. this would be for selecting certain designs 06:43 < fenn> there is no author 06:43 < kanzure> kind of for going through the many, many results 06:43 < UtopiahGHML> oh 06:43 < UtopiahGHML> no author :) 06:43 < kanzure> filtering over possibility space, I guess 06:44 < fenn> unless you mean the guy who made the parts you're currently manipulating 06:44 < kanzure> just one? poor guy :) 06:44 < fenn> yeah :( 06:44 < kanzure> left hand path 06:44 < fenn> too many cooks spoils the tag-soup 06:44 < UtopiahGHML> if you invite a user to use a system, you are the author of the system 06:44 < UtopiahGHML> if your system provide affordance to your model 06:44 < UtopiahGHML> you are the author of the underlying model 06:44 < UtopiahGHML> so there is an author 06:45 < fenn> i guess 06:45 < UtopiahGHML> (you could even consider a genetic algorythm an author in some sort of way) 06:45 < fenn> that's what i mean by no author 06:45 < UtopiahGHML> to me the only option to "no author" is evolution thus evolutionary algo 06:45 < fenn> there's also brute force 06:46 < fenn> or some other "fuzzy" learning algorithm 06:46 < UtopiahGHML> brute force is evo algo with no return and selection only by final sucess 06:46 < UtopiahGHML> 1 step mutation/selection 06:46 < fenn> not necessarily 06:47 < kanzure> that's what I say SA is 06:47 < fenn> brute force can be systematic 06:47 < kanzure> had a paper ref 06:47 < kanzure> SAGA_hybrids.pdf 06:47 < UtopiahGHML> systematic or random you just build a space of solutions and try them with selection being only work,do not work 06:48 < fenn> imagine you're trying to cover a landscape in marbles, you can roll marbles into depressions in the landscape (GA) or glue them randomly, or glue a grid of marbles on the landscape 06:49 < fenn> what does SA stand for? 06:49 < kanzure> simulated annealing 06:49 < fenn> hrm. 06:50 < fenn> requires continuous changes to be good 06:50 < fenn> otherwise it might jump out of the hole 06:51 < fenn> or is that the point 06:51 < kanzure> need a little mutation to get evolution out of the gutters 06:52 < fenn> where's my magic quantum computer that can just give me the optimum answer 06:52 < fenn> hey, you know, in reality we want to support standards, which typically involve discrete choices ie M5 screw M6 screw etc 06:53 < fenn> so that reduces the search space drastically 06:54 < fenn> so i still dont know what "rules" are 06:54 < kanzure> "if you find this in the graph, do this" 06:54 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/rules/ check one of these files 06:54 < fenn> that's just a substitution system 06:54 < kanzure> yes 06:55 < fenn> that's as bad as cellular automata 06:55 < kanzure> (the files have a "left hand side" and a "right hand side") 06:55 < kanzure> eh? 06:55 < fenn> i.e. unpredictable output 06:55 < kanzure> rules are constrained by those standards though 06:55 < kanzure> that you just mentioned. 06:55 < kanzure> actually 06:55 < kanzure> it might just be an equivalency 06:58 < kanzure> they are standards for a reason 06:58 < fenn> most standards are proven designs 06:58 < fenn> but there is some arbitrariness, like what diameter is the screw 06:58 < kanzure> ok, so some rules are bendable 06:58 * kanzure recalls scenes from the matrix 06:59 < fenn> i mean why 5mm why not 5.1mm 06:59 < kanzure> yes, I know 06:59 < fenn> but the standard only defines 5mm screws 06:59 < kanzure> say you had to have 5.1 mm . that's a breakable rule methinks. 06:59 < kanzure> well that's probably a stupid standard anyway 06:59 < kanzure> size, jeesh 07:00 < fenn> however you can make a 5.1mm screw some of the rules for defining a 5mm screw (just change the diameter value) 07:00 < kanzure> lets do a more important thing in design space for standardization, I dunno, something that actually helps 07:00 < kanzure> 5 mm screws help of course, when buying parts 07:00 < kanzure> that's probably what it is. 07:00 < fenn> very much so 07:00 < fenn> used to be you had to call up the local blacksmith to make each screw since no two were alike 07:00 < kanzure> uh, how long ago? 07:01 < fenn> not that long ago :( 07:01 < fenn> 1910? 07:01 < kanzure> shouldn't have asked. 07:01 < fenn> optical comparator revolutionized screw making because it introduced some GD&T-like principles 07:02 < fenn> so a screw doesn't have to be exactly 5mm, as long as it falls within a certain range of shapes (optical comparator is because helical shapes are hard to measure with calipers) 07:16 < kanzure> right 07:22 < kanzure> fenn gets it yet? 07:26 < ybit> figured p.36 of http://web.mit.edu/endy/www/scraps/talks/03.06/EndyMarch2006.pdf might help gene 07:26 < ybit> maybe i will remember later 07:28 < ybit> and the 31m mark in http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6950604815683841321&ei=li7fSO-PKZycrALHy9igCw&q=synthetic+biology+drew+endy 07:31 < kanzure> effn 07:31 < kanzure> don't get me wrong, substitution is a complementary method to everything else (like bruteforce) 07:31 < kanzure> but to some extent it's somewhat equivalent 07:31 < kanzure> I'd want to hash out the code for bruteforce first to see/show etc. 07:32 < kanzure> hm, weird typo on 'fenn' 07:32 < kanzure> why'd I type? 07:33 < UtopiahGHML> [tab] don't type 07:33 < kanzure> right 07:33 < UtopiahGHML> actually 07:34 < UtopiahGHML> comment on http://seedea.free.fr/wiki/pmwiki.php?n=Oimp.Ubiquitousvocabulary please 07:35 < kanzure> where'd my log analysis scripts go? 07:35 < kanzure> I had 100+ MB of analyzed logs from my many years of chatting 07:35 < kanzure> technically the information is still in my mysqldb :) 07:36 * ybit takes a few capsules of melatonin and calls it a night 07:36 < kanzure> dictionary based tab completion, eh? 07:36 < ybit> goodnight 07:36 < UtopiahGHML> night 07:36 < UtopiahGHML> kanzure: 100MB of raw data or of resulting analysis?! 07:36 < kanzure> raw data 07:36 < UtopiahGHML> that's different ;) 07:37 < kanzure> /me was working on auto grammar expansion stuff a while back (conceptually) .. would be nice to have computer assisted grammar / sentence construction for conveying sufficient meaning/detail 07:37 < kanzure> the analysis was like 300 MB or something 07:37 < kanzure> lots of stupid crazy overhead 07:37 < kanzure> timestamp on each and every word 07:37 < kanzure> (not connectivity though, why? mostly because I took the code from another guy) 07:38 < UtopiahGHML> well the point if to use [tab] all anytime anywhere instead of typing 07:38 < UtopiahGHML> s/if/is/ 07:38 < kanzure> have you seen the japanese text input interfaces for cell phones? 07:38 < kanzure> I hear it's kind of like tab completion except more gui 07:38 < UtopiahGHML> yep, chinese actually but I guess it's the same 07:39 < UtopiahGHML> Ive spend 6 months in Shanghai 07:39 < UtopiahGHML> didn't think about it actually, thanks :P 07:39 < UtopiahGHML> (duh) 07:40 < UtopiahGHML> they basically phonetically type and tab cycle amonst the different possibilities based on the word frequencies 07:41 < UtopiahGHML> sound very similar indeed 07:41 < kanzure> sentence construction help next please. 07:41 < UtopiahGHML> that's why I love to share ideas, you always have people looking at it with a different perspective 07:41 < kanzure> or people sufficiently annoyed with the problems. 07:43 < UtopiahGHML> they basically phonetically-type and tab-cycle amonst the different possibilities (possibilities ordererd by the frequency of usage of each word) 07:45 < kanzure> theoretically that's how standards should be crystalizing 07:45 < kanzure> but anyway. 07:45 < kanzure> sleep. g'night 07:45 < UtopiahGHML> ++ 15:56 < superturtle> uh 15:56 < superturtle> can anyone explain why precisely my laptop is off? 15:59 < UtopiahGHML> sounds like a job for the X-files guys 16:07 < superturtle> I suspect the fans. 16:19 < superturtle> 48585. This delay has set it back. 16:58 < kanzure> yep, no fan movement 17:51 < kanzure> http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=2960641 17:51 < kanzure> somethingawful feels like the missing link in my internet ancestry 17:51 < kanzure> infopop brings me back. 17:51 < kanzure> *takes me back 17:51 < kanzure> which one is it? 17:52 < bkero> I'm a goon. 18:04 < kanzure> patrick sucks 18:04 < kanzure> on openmanufacturing 20:48 < superturtle> blah 22:21 < superturtle> would anyone be interested in accounts to the file server? 22:45 < bkero> files? 22:49 < superturtle> 300 GB collection of stuff.