--- Day changed Sat Oct 04 2008
02:56 < kanzure> fenn: how's the thinking coming with inventory systems or alternatives?
04:15 < gene> kanzure
04:16 < gene> are there any diy microprocessors?
04:45 < splicer> Not sure there is a need. There are very cheap microcontrollers that are easy to handle. 
04:47 < ybit> i think kde is dead
04:47 < ybit> awesome still works
04:47  * ybit needs to open the lappy tonight or tomorrow
04:48 < ybit> and i think i will hold off on grabbing the matweb.zip file until this lappy is fixed
04:49  * ybit needs to backup soon
04:49 < ybit> i don't think my baby will last much longer :|
04:51 < splicer> hmm.. I'm gonna do one later today too
04:51 < ybit> splicer: do you use an offsite backup service?
04:52 < splicer> i just copy the db, as sql
04:52 < ybit> to...?
04:53 < splicer> local HD.. occacianally DVD. I don't have the amout of data I suspect you guys have. 
05:00 < gene> the question is, is it possible to make microcontrollers with the complexity of the one in say a 1998 pc
05:01 < gene> splicer you there?
05:02 < splicer> here
05:02 < gene> not to make our own microcontrollers
05:03 < gene> but making semiconductor devices is necessary to make something that can self-replicate
05:04 < splicer> you are not talking biology now?
05:04 < gene> yeah
05:04 < gene> one of the main goals of this forum is the design of self-replicating machines
05:04 < gene> and also the biohacking toolkit
05:05 < gene> for the biohacking toolkit a way needs to be found to synthesize sequences of DNA
05:05 < gene> a DNA compiler is needed
05:06 < gene> one that is sufficiently cheap and easy to use
05:07 < splicer> I have kindof avoided the self replicating machins discussion... I guess computers can be made out of very simple standard parts with simple instructionsets and good parallellisation. 
05:08 < gene> mechanical computers?
05:08 < splicer> yeah
05:08 < gene> I've been thinking fluidic computers
05:08 < splicer> ah
05:09 < gene> computers that use fluidic logic gates and such
05:09 < splicer> ok
05:09 < gene> they don't require the tolerances necessary for mechanical computers
05:10 < splicer> I'd like to find out how brains work
05:10 < gene> ask kanzure
05:10 < gene> he has a bunch of papers
05:10 < splicer> I know how his brain works
05:10 < gene> and is doing some work with computational neuroscience
05:11 < gene> me too
05:11 < splicer> ok
05:12  * ybit is on furlough until this issue is resolved. later everyone
05:14 < gene> so do you have access to any interesting equipment?
05:17 < splicer> me?.. not really
05:18 < splicer> it seems to me that the brain is the holy grail when it comes to biological computing.
05:18 < gene> yeah
05:19 < splicer> I think the blue brain project is probably the state of the art right now... and they don't know much
05:19 < gene> yup
05:20 < gene> they know quite a lot 
05:20 < gene> but not enough 
05:21 < splicer> it's like the beginning of the beginning
05:22 < gene> that pretty much describes
05:22 < gene> it 
05:24 < splicer> For me it's a bit like when a philosopher friend asked me once "Don't you ever think about the meaning of it all" and I thought about it and came to the conclusion that a lot of smart people I knew were thinking about it constantly and If they found out they would probably tell me.
05:26 < gene> yeah
05:47 < gene_> huh?
05:48 < gene_> Did I win or something?
06:04 < bkero> you win the game!
06:05 < bkero> (I don't remember typing that)
06:05 < gene_> what game
06:06 < gene_> I don't know about the game
06:06 < gene_> some one told me not to think about it
06:06 < bkero> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Game_(mind_game)
06:07 < gene_> strange
06:07 < gene_> I can't read that page
06:07 < bkero> lol
06:07 < gene_> it shows up
06:07 < gene_> I can't read it
06:08 < bkero> I've lost the game too many times.  06:07 <+Mogget> 3  bkero         1452    0 secs
06:08 < gene_> I can't read what you just typed
06:09 < gene_> it is possible to win this game
06:09 < bkero> Yes
06:09 < gene_> people in the amazon without internet win the game
06:17 < bkero> Hahaha thursdays daily show is great.  http://www.hulu.com/watch/37533/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart-thu-oct-2-2008#s-p1-so-i0
06:17 -!- Irssi: #hplusroadmap: Total of 16 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 16 normal]
06:21 < gene_> I truly believe brownian motion equations can be applied to talk on the internet
06:21 < bkero> brownian motion equations?
06:24 < gene_> in other words
06:25 < gene_> the current topic of a forum can be represented as x,y coordinates
06:26 < bkero> orly
06:26 < gene_> the forum randomely shifts from the original or current topic
06:27 < gene_> see right now?
06:27 < gene_> what was the original topic?
07:12 < splicer> good episode. Love the daily show.
13:09 < kanzure> http://groups.google.com/group/getarticles
13:19 < kanzure> wtf's wrong with my server?
13:19 < kanzure> the screen has switched to some sort of kernel dump
13:19 < kanzure> "0kb pages_scanned:0 all_unreclaimable? no"
13:19 < kanzure> reboot :(
13:22 < kanzure> "/dev/hda1 has gone 225 days without being checked, check forced"
13:22 < kanzure> bwahah, fear my uptime! 
13:35 < kanzure> re: diy microprocessors http://opencores.org/
13:37 -!- kanzure__ is now known as kanzure_
14:10 -!- Utopiah is now known as UtopiahGHML
15:06 < UtopiahGHML> anybody watching videos with sound at >1x speed?
15:06 < UtopiahGHML> good way to do that with synchro sound?
15:06 < UtopiahGHML> good way to do that with Flash videos?
15:06 < UtopiahGHML> good way to do all that online integrated to my usual browsing environment? (FF with WinXP)
15:10 < fenn> download flash video and use mplayer
15:10 < fenn> there are firefox add-ons to download just about anything, but i usually use a command line script
15:11 < fenn> and give it the url as an argument
15:11 < UtopiahGHML> like keepvid.com
15:11 < UtopiahGHML> ok so mplayer support that well, cool
15:11 < fenn> every once in a while there is some video i can't play (very rare)
15:11 < UtopiahGHML> I tride it a while ago (>2 years AFAIK) and it wasn't so cool
15:13 < UtopiahGHML> but can't mplayer actually read videos from an URL?
15:14 < fenn> not a yourube url
15:14 < UtopiahGHML> and a translated url from your script?
15:22 < fenn> so, this works: youtube-dl.py -g http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4N3Nm3vwkpY |xargs mplayer -speed 2
15:23 < UtopiahGHML> and it's possible to call that within a greasemonkey script I guess, hmmm sounds like the best solution
15:23 < UtopiahGHML> (like doing a little x2 x4 x8 button on the side of the flash player)
15:23 < fenn> can't seek though, you'd have to download first for that
15:24 < UtopiahGHML> that's ok as long as I can pause/play
15:25 < fenn> did i mention i hate flash?
15:25 < UtopiahGHML> what do you hate more, AI people or Flash?
15:25 < fenn> flash
15:25 < fenn> at least i can choose to ignore ai people
15:29 < UtopiahGHML> you can ignore flash with adblock
17:15 < kanzure> argh
17:15 < kanzure> I have a problem
17:17 < kanzure> Shumaker's Process Pipe Drafting, Adventures from the Technology Underground (catapults, pulsejets, rail guns, flamethrowers, tesla coils, air cannons, garage warriors), Unit Processes in Organic Synthesis, Modern Manufacturing Process Engineering
17:19 < kanzure> and my grandmother sent me another Vinge book that she's read .. I'm worried that next she's going to start sending me Sterling stuff or something
17:27 < kanzure> http://tools.google.com/gapminder/ or http://gapminder.org/ for the main site - seems to be a statistics datawarehouse of some sort
17:27 < kanzure> downloadable figures? http://www.gapminder.org/downloads/documentation/
17:34 < kanzure> http://www.tubecad.com/2004/blog0018.htm OTL amplifier design .. main site is http://www.tubecad.com/index.htm "John Broskie's Guide to Tube Circuit Analysis & Design"
18:54 < gene> So who here knows about Charles Michael Collins
18:55 < gene> he claims to have made a replicator in 1998
18:55 < gene> http://www.geocities.com/charles_c_22191/_home.html
18:55 < kanzure> 1996.
18:55 < kanzure> http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPAT5764518
18:55 < gene> is he crazy?
18:56 < gene> He's claiming patent infringement on reprap!
18:58 < gene> or does his replicator actually replicate
18:59 < gene> I can't figure out how it works
19:02 < kanzure> it's about time I wrote the validator anyway .. I'll do it when I get back into the lab next
19:02 < kanzure> if I write the validator and throw it up for download, gene, would you use it the next time you think you have a replicator?
19:02 < kanzure> this validator checks for minimal requirements of self-replication
19:02 < kanzure> the basic idea of skdb basically.
19:02 < kanzure> it's not in any good form yet because it's just a simple io checker but whatever.
19:03 < gene> so has collins actually made a replicator or is he some internet conspiracy nut?
19:03 < gene> I tend to favor explanation 2
19:03 < gene> I don't think I have a replicator
19:06 < kanzure> then why are you asking about this Charles Michael Collins fellow?
19:06 < gene> I want to know if he is a nutcase or not
19:07 < gene> if we should consider his ideas
19:08 < gene> or if we should consider them as noise
19:09 < gene> It cerntainly is an interesting approach
19:10 < gene> nothing like the Advanced Automation for Space Missions study
19:12 < kanzure_> hm, my system locked up
19:12 < gene> plus, it seems like his "alleged" replicator can't replicate fully
19:17 < gene> but this cellular automaton approach
19:18 < gene> might be easier to accomplish
19:18 < gene> just look at the moses replicator
19:18 < gene> it can assemble itself
19:19 < gene> non autonomously 
19:19 < gene> and with human intervention
19:19 < gene> but that's still a step up from reprap
19:23 < fenn> yay overly broad patents
19:24 < fenn> 75 claims! and number 1 covers just about every tool on the planet
19:25 < gene> yes indeed
19:25 < fenn> it looks like he's describing a turing machine
19:26 < gene> maybe he could sue all kingdoms of life for infringing on his patent
19:26 < gene> he allegedly built one in 1996
19:27 < gene> all there is to support this claim is a blurry photograph
19:27 < gene> just like big foot
19:27 < gene> or the loch ness monster
19:33 < gene> but a cellular automaton approach like he and toth-fejel describe
19:34 < gene> simplifies things a lot
19:36 < gene> it makes things vastly simpler for software to do
19:36 < fenn> lol qbasic
19:41  * fenn is so moving to guptastan
19:57 < fenn> rofl
19:57 < fenn> The same nefarious accusers of greed are working in tandem with large multinational corporations who in actual greed are seeking to water down patent laws and other intellectual property rights simply to pay less royalties for innovations within big business. This is the real source of your "open source" movement and "globalization" movements and "patent reforms" and "patent harmonization" movements who play the greed card all 
19:58 < nsh> "plat the green card all"
19:58 < nsh> (cut)
19:59 < fenn> all the way to their big banks.
20:00 < fenn> and then he goes on to say that nasa is infringing on his patent merely for showing pictures of colorized tiles on the internet
20:02  * nsh chuckles
20:03 < fenn> seems to be angry at freitas, bowyer, et al because he can't get any funding
20:04 < fenn> ok cant read any more of that crap
20:06 < kanzure_> fenn: re: the patent stuff there "the real reason of your 'open source' movement"
20:06 < kanzure_> that's funny.
20:06 < kanzure_> in the engineering class that I'm taking, the professor says that patents are bad because they don't offer engineers protection "it's pre-patent that you want, that way the FBI will hunt down and kill anybody that infringes upon your idea"
20:06 < kanzure_> methinks everyone is confused about patents
20:06 < kanzure_> or something
20:07 < kanzure_> what else would explain all of this?
20:07 < fenn> pre-patent? what's that mean?
20:07 < kanzure_> in the review queue
20:07 < fenn> why does that offer more protection?
20:07 < kanzure_> "stuff that the uspto is supposed to get to"
20:07 < kanzure_> dunno, apparently "it just does"
20:07 < fenn> is that like "patent pending"?
20:08 < kanzure_> ah, perhaps it is
20:08 < fenn> "everyone is confused about patents" probably because we aren't living under the Rule of Law
20:08 < kanzure_> under the what?
20:08 < kanzure_> what are you about to be going on about now?
20:09 < fenn> you know, the idea that law is supposed to be applied equally regardless who you are
20:09 < fenn> but anyway the patent system is impossible now due to computational intractability
20:09 < fenn> especially with people going and patenting any fabricational device with a data storage
20:10 < fenn> or some crap like that
20:10 < kanzure_> the other day I found that fabuntu was just a collection of three or four scripts on top of ubuntu
20:10 < fenn> my toy from last night: http://fennetic.net/pub/camera/DCP_0836.JPG
20:10 < kanzure_> the three or four scripts being the tie-in between different cad tools and the device drivers or something
20:11 < fenn> this shows the C-axis rotation better: http://fennetic.net/pub/camera/DCP_0837.JPG
20:11 < fenn> yeah i'm rather unimpressed with the software coming out of gershenfeld's army
20:11 < kanzure_> he has a friggin army
20:11 < kanzure_> shouldn't there be, uh, more?
20:11 < fenn> he does
20:12 < kanzure_> it doesn't seem like the code is to really operate and manage a fablab
20:12 < kanzure_> although I've not seen any *lab or *shop for that matter that is able to keep track of all of its materials, tools, procurement, etc. anyway
20:12 < fenn> it's because they were fighting with commercial CAM software which is stuck in the 70's
20:12 < kanzure_> how would you do that? 
20:12 < kanzure_> I'd be much too tempted to just bring in boxes of stuff and not categorize it
20:13 < kanzure_> I know there's all sorts of content management systems
20:13 < fenn> you mean inventory systems?
20:13 < kanzure_> yes
20:13 < fenn> it's more than just software
20:13 < kanzure_> stuff for managing shop floor activity as well. inventory, where things are (or are not), etc.
20:13 < fenn> training monkeys is the hard part
20:13 < fenn> that's why techshop is so lame
20:13 < kanzure_> training? not just getting them?
20:13 < kanzure_> techshop is also lame because you have to pay :)
20:13 < fenn> getting monkeys is easy, they're running around all over the place
20:14 < kanzure_> hrm
20:14 < fenn> its the wild monkeys that come in and abuse your inventory
20:14  * fenn has been cleaning up messes all day
20:14 < fenn> s/day/week/
20:14 < kanzure_> but really, how much time would you spend making sure you properly check out tools or materials in your own personal shop?
20:15 < kanzure_> it's not like you're going to want to hack together a few pcb's one day and say "oh, geeze, I should really check this out from the inventory"
20:15 < fenn> i dont check out tools, i put them back where they belong when there's too much crap lying everywhere
20:15 < fenn> however, if the only way to get something was through a computerized storage system, i'd be able to see who last used my frobknob
20:16 < kanzure_> yeah, but what if somebody just took it?
20:16 < kanzure_> without swipping a barcode or something?
20:16 < fenn> how do they know where it is?
20:16 < kanzure_> they see it?
20:16 < fenn> no, it's in surplus tub 15-A
20:17 < kanzure_> so, surplus tub 15-A under some authentication system?
20:17 < kanzure_> *is under
20:17 < fenn> well, back when i was thinking about this, i was about to move into a room that used to contain a 1 lane swimming pool
20:17 < kanzure_> erm, well, I guess this should be modularized and up to the implementation of the *shop/*lab of course, but we're still lacking a good system in general
20:18 < kanzure_> hm?
20:18 < fenn> so all the storage would be under the floor in the swimming pool, accessible only by robot
20:18 < kanzure_> ah, so a robotic retrieval system would be my style :)
20:18 < fenn> but it seems kinda slow
20:18 < fenn> i mean waiting 30 seconds for a wrench
20:18 < fenn> where's my RFID tag utopia
20:19 < kanzure_> and then somebody takes the rfid off
20:19 < fenn> well at least we'll know they took the rfid tag off
20:19 < fenn> most people who borrow tools arent actually thinking about stealing them
20:19 < fenn> people like that should be shot on sight
20:19 < kanzure_> I'm just worrying about things that can go wrong
20:19 < kanzure_> things go wrong in file systems all the time
20:19 < kanzure_> (hdd file systems)
20:19 < kanzure_> even more so in paper filing systems
20:20 < kanzure_> hell if I know how wrong things can get in an automated tool shed system
20:20 < fenn> worst case scenario is a nuclear explosion
20:21 < kanzure_> I guess.
20:21 < fenn> unless you can think of worse
20:21 < fenn> grey goo already happened billions of years ago
20:21 < kanzure_> what about material procurement?
20:22 < kanzure_> the way that the superbarges do it is via the typical containers that you see being trucked around on the highways
20:22 < kanzure_> each of these has a specific standard interface for package delivery
20:22 < fenn> shipping containers are awesome
20:22 < kanzure_> and during their trip they are hooked up to electrical power at some wattage and voltage and such
20:22 < kanzure_> :)
20:22 < fenn> before that you had ceramic urns and cargo nets
20:22 < kanzure_> which is nice since this allows systematic material shipping
20:22 < kanzure_> ceramic urns and cargo nets? I am not familiar with these.
20:22 < fenn> because you were born in the era of shipping containers
20:23 < kanzure_> well, yeah
20:23 < fenn> what do you mean "material procurement" anyway?
20:23 < fenn> like a hopper full of bauxite?
20:24 < fenn> a hopper full of fpga's?
20:24 < kanzure_> "fabuntu-fablab-thingy #234-79A, package delivery 63 for bryan .. contains platonium and 32 ounces of liquid amphetamines .. please open docking bay" :p
20:24 < kanzure_> erm
20:24 < fenn> so the context is "how to integrate stuff into your inventory"?
20:24  * kanzure_ is honestly more worried about the monkeys at the reception bay for materials .. "hey, look, a box of new materials and hardware! now what?"
20:25 < kanzure_> yeah
20:25 < kanzure_> specifically when it's not so specific
20:25 < kanzure_> just hire really really good monkeys?
20:25 < fenn> hmm.. automated assimilation procedures
20:25 < fenn> dunno, that's the classic software interoperability problem
20:25 < kanzure_> or pray that someone has already added the information into skdb for that package or box or something?
20:26 < kanzure_> obviously you'd bitchslap anybody who makes something and doesn't have a definition of it in the repositories, but when untagged/untracked materials are gathered from The Black, Cruel Dataless Abyss, ..
20:26 < fenn> and the subcontractor problem.. they'll probably make their own entry and ignore the others already in the db
20:26 < fenn> well you cant have something in the inventory with zero data about it
20:26 < fenn> except for rats and fungus n stuff
20:27 < kanzure_> let's say you have two shops deployed somewhere
20:27 < kanzure_> send them two identical boxes
20:27 < fenn> you should know the date it was entered at least
20:27 < kanzure_> of materials that they do not know about
20:27 < kanzure_> somehow you have to make sure that both can input the data in some nonredundant manner
20:27 < kanzure_> or something.
20:28 < kanzure_> maybe it would be better if they were able to acquire the history of the materials and tools and other things they add to their inventory?
20:28 < fenn> black box number d3b07384d113edec49eaa6238ad5ff00
20:28 < kanzure_> i.e., "hey, I found this package off of the streets from some guy named Fred here .. he says he got it from the mines"
20:28 < kanzure_> heh
20:28 < fenn> go ahead, try to figure out what it is
20:28 < kanzure_> really this is sort of like the bibliographing/sourcing problem
20:28 < kanzure_> oh, do you want me to go to #md5 on rizon or something?
20:29 < kanzure_> their md5 cracking system and such.
20:29 < fenn> i'm wondering if this bot can solve a simple problem
20:29 < kanzure_> (s/cracking/reverse lookup/)
20:29 < kanzure_> what do you mean?
20:29 < fenn> whether it works at all
20:33 < fenn> right, well, if you get stuck, just remember "google knows all"
20:33 < kanzure_> what's going on
20:33 < kanzure> foo?
20:33 < fenn> i have a headache from this ashwaganda stuff
20:34 < fenn> yep 'foo'
20:34 < fenn> did the bot get it?
20:34 < kanzure_> google got it
20:34 < kanzure_> the bot will get it though, yes
20:34 < kanzure_> they have all strings up to 7 digits or something
20:34 < kanzure_> 7 characters
20:34 < fenn> why is it taking so long?
20:34 < kanzure_> uh? because I'm lazy?
20:34 < fenn> oh
20:35 < fenn> nevermind then
20:35 < kanzure_> essentially this is the same problem with recycling.
20:36 < fenn> assimilation
20:36 < kanzure_> hard enough to get people to remember to throw their plastic bottles in the 'plastic bottle bin', and don't even begin to laugh at the people that have to make the systems to separate the types of plastics :/
20:36 < fenn> you can separate most plastics by density in a water-alcohol gradient
20:37 < kanzure_> then why does everybody complaing about the recycling-sorting/classification problem?
20:37 < fenn> i think they just hire people to sort it by hand though
20:37 < fenn> or dump it into the ocean
20:37 < fenn> probably the latter
20:44 < fenn> ever played those electronic 20 question games?
20:44 < kanzure_> maybe. 
20:44 < kanzure_> I've played the one on the web that claims it's ai
20:44 < fenn> i was thinking we could write a categorization expert system, a search tree sorta like that, but you could add new categories/end nodes
20:45 < kanzure_> and what would the input be?
20:45 < kanzure_> the super-measures-everything-identfies-anything system?
20:45 < fenn> so when inventory monkey is trying to put an unclassified item in the system it would make him either find the existing entry to add a new one
20:45 < kanzure_> oh, ask the monkey the questions?
20:45 < fenn> s/to/or/
20:46 < kanzure_> so only monkey-see becomes become do? what about monkey-no-see, such as distinctions that are hard for the untrained to see?
20:46 < kanzure_> erm
20:46 < kanzure_> imagine the analytical chem lab
20:47 < kanzure_> they do some fairly complicated analyses on the materials they receive from forensics peoples, for instance
20:47 < fenn> hmm. supplement with automated analytical testing?
20:47 < kanzure_> and I know they're following protocols, do we want monkeys to follow protocols?
20:47 < fenn> if monkey receives unmarked baggie of white powder, i dunno how to get a good answer out of him otherwise
20:47 < kanzure_> yeah, automated analytical testing is one idea, but that sounds like an 'inverse reprap machine' :p 
20:47 < kanzure_> i.e., "has all possible gizmos and gadgets to poke and prod at stuff"
20:47 < kanzure_> *poke*
20:47 < fenn> dammit there has to be something at least approximating a tricorder
20:48 < fenn> gcms is pretty close
20:48 < fenn> raman spectrometer is good for things that have been surveyed already
20:48 < fenn> biological materials, well, no ideas there
20:48 < kanzure_> is there a way to get an object's hash other than looking at its overall wavefunction? (we can only get wavefunctions for very, very tiny molecules, and most atoms)
20:48 < kanzure_> yeah ..
20:48 < kanzure_> bah
20:48 < fenn> PCR i guess
20:48 < kanzure_> people have a pain classifying organisms as it is
20:49 < kanzure_> I've heard horror stories of biologists mistaking obvious flowers and plants that nobody catches simply because we're all clueless
20:49 < fenn> you can get an object's hash by shooting an x-ray laser at it :\
20:49 < kanzure_> joke?
20:49 < fenn> then looking at the scatter pattern
20:49 < fenn> no joke
20:49 < fenn> think about it
20:50 < kanzure_> I'm imaging medical x-rays and all I see is that similar sized objects cast similar 'shadows' and 'masks' not allowing the photons to pass
20:50 < fenn> i'm thinking something more like x-ray crystallography
20:51 < fenn> not a point light source, a planar wave
20:51 < fenn> there was some paper that got me thinking about it.. will look
20:52 < kanzure_> ooh
20:52 < kanzure_> what about this
20:52 < kanzure_> debian has free and nonfree
20:52 < fenn> assimilated and nonassimilated?
20:52 < kanzure_> so anything that you make that has unsourced materials, has to be labeled as such, i.e. "thar be black magic here"
20:52 < kanzure_> yes
20:52 < fenn> useful and useless?
20:52 < kanzure_> heh
20:52 < kanzure_> basically
20:52 < fenn> 'tainted'
20:53 < fenn> it's a start
20:53 < fenn> varying levels of taintedness too
20:53 < bkero> I'm black magick.
20:53 < fenn> like if i know how to make a computer chip, but dont have the infrastructure
20:53 < fenn> or rare isotopes
20:54 < kanzure_> it'd also be nice to see if people have previously tried nontainted alternatives so that you don't have to repeat stupid stuff
20:54 < kanzure_> which would obviously be uploaded in the repo
20:54 < kanzure_> unless they want me to visit them and cut off their legs
20:54 < fenn> and hopefully in the same category
20:54 < fenn> else you'd never find them
20:54 < kanzure_> well, surely there should be 'history' and 'use cases' and various reports (even if automatically generated) attached to each part and so on
20:54 < kanzure_> I was thinking that would be the case anyway
20:56 < fenn> http://www.media.mit.edu/sponsors/uspatents.pdf search for hash
20:57 < fenn> whoever invented the 'select text and type to delete everything' interface needs to be shot
20:57 < kanzure_> everyone needs to be shot at least once
20:57 < kanzure_> but what would be a better thing to do with selected text that you keypress on?
20:57 < kanzure_> besides copy :)
20:58 < fenn> its patent 6584214
20:58 < bkero> I don't need to be shot.
20:58 < kanzure_> you've compiled gentoo
20:58 < kanzure_> yes you do
20:58 < kanzure_> :p
20:58 < bkero> kanzure_: I do it for a living. ;)
20:59 < bkero> and I have damn good reasons for doing so ;)
20:59 < kanzure_> shot nonfatally, I mean
21:00 < kanzure_> "Ouch! Quick! Everybody out of the genetic pool!"
21:00 < bkero> I realize that :P
21:00 < bkero> I'm stirring some bleach into the genetic pool.
21:00 < kanzure_> fenn: that patent looks like something mostly structural
21:00 < fenn> the physical object hash idea came up because i was thinking about how marketing companies would protect their brand image in the age of molecular nanotech
21:01 < fenn> they would publish hash keys of a "genuine" apple nano-pod or whatever
21:01 < kanzure_> but we already have people doing reverse hashes of strings
21:01 < fenn> no, they arent doing reverse hashes, they're systematically building a db of forward hashes
21:01 < fenn> there's a difference
21:01 < kanzure_> since any object would be just a sequence of bits instructing the construction of the object, I fail to see how anything but "well, it has a large state space to permutate through" keeps it safe
21:01 < kanzure_> okay.
21:02 < kanzure_> I guess you can just hope nobody can do enough hashes to get the right ipod nano or something
21:02 < fenn> well the problem is it takes a really long time to dissect something down to the individual atoms
21:02 < fenn> so only the originator would have an atom-perfect copy
21:03 < fenn> trade secret, not copyright
21:03 < fenn> blah
21:04 < fenn> not like it matters whose name is on your clothing
21:05 < bkero> I don't have names on my clothing.
21:05 < bkero> MD5 has already been broken.
21:05 < kanzure_> my clothing has no words on it
21:05 < fenn> bkero: howzat?
21:06 < kanzure_> oh, that's a gershenfeld patent
21:06 < bkero> HD5 and SHA have both been cracked and/or broken.
21:06 < bkero> *MD5
21:07 < fenn> i consider a hash broken when you can make two different files with arbitrary content that have the same hash - is that what you mean?
21:08 < bkero> http://en.epochtimes.com/news/7-1-11/50336.html
21:09 < fenn> why would they announce that to the world?
21:09 < bkero> Because they're academics
21:10 < bkero> Why wouldn't you announce it to the world?
21:10 < fenn> because you're working for the chinese gov't?
21:10 < fenn> because you can sell it for billions of dollars?
21:10 < bkero> Some people don't want money.
21:11 < kanzure_> what he's wondering is why somebody who did want money didn't get it first
21:11 < bkero> It's just you and the rest of us fat americans who want to snort cocaine off a $10,000/night hookers ass
21:11 < kanzure_> $10k/night?
21:11 < fenn> i could do a lot of things with a cool 'bil
21:12 < bkero> There isn't much of an industry for cracking hashes
21:12 < kanzure_> hah
21:12  * kanzure_ has had to crack many a hash
21:12 < kanzure_> well, not crack
21:12 < kanzure_> erm.
21:12 < bkero> You didn't have to create algorithms for cracking hashes though. :P
21:12 < fenn> "I hope efforts to protect against password theft will benefit [from this]"
21:13 < kanzure_> are you sure it was 'from this' ? heh'
21:13 < fenn> but if you didnt announce to the world how to crack the hash there wouldnt be any problem!
21:13 < bkero> fenn: uh, unless someone else stole her research or figured it out for themselves
21:13 < bkero> obscurity != security
21:14 < fenn> is there such a thing as "unbreakable crypto"?
21:14 < fenn> it seems more like the history of science showing how un-special humans are
21:14 < bkero> fenn: Nobody has cracked RSA yet.
21:15 < kanzure_> cite thermodynamic arguments against the existence of 'security' here
21:15 < fenn> "ah but we are the only animal that sings sonnets with iambic pentameter"
21:16 < bkero> Need I remind you of the superiority of the dolphins?
21:16 < fenn> please do so
21:16 < bkero> Dolphins: Second most intelligent life-form to have inhabited Earth. Most intelligent of Earths indiginous species. Subordinate only to a race of Hyperintelligent pan-dimensional beings know commmonly as mice. Man has always assumed that he is more intelligent than dolphins because he has accomplished so much: the wheel, New York, Wars, and so on, while all the dolphins ever did was muck about in the water having a good time. However, dolphins consider themselves far more intelligent than man for exactly the same reasons.
21:17 < kanzure_> Cutoff at "However, dolphins consider"
21:17 < bkero> However, dolphins consider themselves far more intelligent  than man for exactly the same reasons.
21:18 < fenn> last i saw they could be coerced to jump through hoop for kippers
21:18 < kanzure_> I'm not sure it's worth pursuing security like that, fenn
21:18 < kanzure_> maybe backup strategizing, sure
21:18 < bkero> Curiously enough, the dolphins had long known of the impending destruction of the planet Earth and had made many attempts to alert mankind to the danger; but most of their communications were misinterpreted as amusing attempts to punch footballs or whistle for titbits, so they eventually gave up
21:18 < kanzure_> but relying on RSA, MD5, ugh.
21:18 < fenn> oh, atom-level product verification?
21:19 < fenn> it could be useful
21:19 < bkero> I wonder if anybody is close to cracking RSA public key encryption.
21:19 < kanzure_> in corporate situations maybe :)
21:19 < kanzure_> or govt
21:19 < bkero> DSA got owned, SHA1, SHA0, and MD5 got owned.  I think SHA256 and Blowfish are still both alright.
21:19 < fenn> i was thinking more like for checking DNA or its artificial equivalent
21:20 < bkero> The government doesn't have much of a fucking clue about encryption.  Sure, they employ cryptographers, but they outsource most of their cracking needs.
21:20 < fenn> bkero: how do you know they havent been sold to the russian mafia for $$$ by unscrupulous math student?
21:20 < kanzure_> "Today we tell Little Johnny that his mitochondrial hash is wrong."
21:20 < bkero> You can't really have a hash with significant entropy.
21:21 < kanzure_> what sort of entropy are you talking about here
21:21 < kanzure_> informational entropy?
21:21 < bkero> Genetic mutation
21:21 < fenn> what does that mean anyway
21:21 < kanzure_> suppose: scan in your genome, you get your information, you hash it
21:21 < kanzure_> oh, bkero, sure
21:21 < kanzure_> mitochondria have something like 13 proteins IIRC
21:21 < kanzure_> 13,000 bp or something
21:21 < kanzure_> so yes, it does mutate
21:21 < fenn> kanzure_: i was thinking, you just hash the info in place without scanning it at all
21:22 < kanzure_> I think you were mentioning something like that a while back, yes
21:22 < fenn> doesn't work with DNA because it's floating around in fluid
21:22 < bkero> XORing it is easier than hashing it.
21:22 < fenn> but some crystalling memory storage is different
21:22 < bkero> Plus, don't we have biological XOR gates already?
21:22 < kanzure_> hrm
21:22 < kanzure_> do we ?
21:22 < fenn> XOR is a hash algo, just not a very good one
21:23 < kanzure_> Hey Dan.
21:23 < bkero> Not a very good one for collisions.
21:23 < facefaceface> anyone good with graph stuff?
21:23 < bkero> It's a very good one for things otherwise
21:23 < facefaceface> hey kanzure_ 
21:23 < bkero> Which is why it's used in RAID5
21:23 < kanzure_> facefaceface: sort of, yes :)
21:23 < kanzure_> facefaceface: what sort of graph stuff?
21:23 < facefaceface> here is my questiobn... 
21:23 < fenn> it's more of a checksum than a hash
21:23 < facefaceface> hi, I'm looking for some algorithmic advice... I have a network (or graph) structure stored in a table as an 'adjacency list', if I represent this as a matrix, I can calculate the degree of each node by squiring the matrix. Is there an equivalent adjacency list operation?
21:23 < bkero> How is it a checksum?
21:23 < facefaceface> squaring 
21:23 < kanzure_> That's odd. 
21:24 < kanzure_> What's your table structure?
21:24 < facefaceface> Currently I'm using a grouping query over the union of two group by queries...
21:24 < facefaceface> Col 1 = node id x, Col 2 = node id y
21:24 < facefaceface> where each row is an edge
21:24 < kanzure_> yeah, that's what I've been doing recently 
21:24 < fenn> bkero: if the source is different, you get a different output, but it's easy to reverse the function
21:24 < kanzure_> I have something like nine tables all being selected at once
21:24 < kanzure_> based off of some ID columns and such
21:24 < kanzure_> (graph-based mechanical engineering designs, you see)
21:25 < fenn> bkero: "reverse" meaning make two different files with the same checksum
21:25 < facefaceface> OK
21:25 < facefaceface> seems like simply squaring the matrix to calculate the degree is a really elegant solution, however, it is not elegant on an adjacency list
21:25 < kanzure_> facefaceface: So, I think you might have the wrong type of table structure to calculate the degree of each node. 
21:26 < facefaceface> the adj -> mat is messy
21:26 < kanzure_> how does your adjaceny matrix work when there's more than one edge at that vertice?
21:26 < kanzure_> like three or four incoming vertices?
21:26 < facefaceface> the primary key is x,y
21:26 < facefaceface> a -> b
21:26 < facefaceface> a -> c
21:26 < facefaceface> a -> d
21:26 < facefaceface> etc
21:26 < kanzure_> each of those 3 is one row in the table?
21:26 < facefaceface> yes
21:26 < kanzure_> ah, that's better
21:27 < facefaceface> so I group by ( group by x union group by y ) 
21:27 < facefaceface> currently
21:27 < kanzure_> why can't you just count the number of rows that have the first node = 'A', and the result is therefore your total count?
21:28 < kanzure_> in MySQL this is something like SELECT count(ID) FROM mytable WHERE A='A'
21:28 < kanzure_> where table 'mytable' has columns ID (unique primary-key, in MySQL lingo), A, and (presumably also) B
21:28 < facefaceface> sure, but I want to get the answer for every node in one query
21:28 < kanzure_> hm.
21:28 < fenn> what are you trying to do? find the number of isolated graphs?
21:29 < bkero> fenn: XORing is very cheap though :)
21:29 < fenn> bkero: not if it's a chunk of un-scanned frozen xenon
21:29 < facefaceface> fenn, I'm trying to count the number of edges for each node
21:30 < fenn> for i in graph: i->count++ ?
21:30 < kanzure_> it would be nice to be able to say "SELECT count(ID) AS $blah-count WHERE $blah IS GROUPED FROM COLUMN 'A'"
21:30 < kanzure_> fenn: but he wants an sql query :/
21:30 < fenn> fff fuck sql
21:30 < kanzure_> sql queries usually don't have scripts inside of them
21:31 < kanzure_> well, there is one option that I can think of, but it kind of sucks
21:31 < facefaceface> Never mind, I have code, its just HUGE..
21:31 < bkero> fenn: I'm talking about computationally cheap
21:32 < kanzure_> facefaceface: Oh, well, hold on a sec
21:32 < fenn> bkero: me too.. hence all the discussion about x-ray lasers as an alternative to laboriously scanning each atom
21:32 < kanzure_> select * from the table GROUP BY 'A'
21:32 < kanzure_> then for each result that you get,
21:32 < fenn> bkero: the difference is the computation happens "out there in the ether" instead of on a CPU
21:32 < kanzure_> generate a query dynamically
21:32 < kanzure_> SELECT count(ID) FROM mytable WHERE A='$that_dynamic_result'
21:32 < kanzure_> this is something like two for loops, one within the other
21:32 < facefaceface> http://pastebin.com/d5b7d67b8
21:33 < kanzure_> it results in a retarded number of queries to the db though
21:33 < kanzure_> and it's not your single query :(
21:33 < bkero> That's a lot of queries
21:34 < kanzure_> bkero: From the pastebin or me?
21:34 < bkero> Your looping selects
21:37 < facefaceface> the paste is a bit overly complex...
21:40 < kanzure_> uh, anyway,
21:40 < facefaceface> simplified paste... http://pastebin.com/d3f7d37a7
21:41 < kanzure_> fenn: untainted would be directly drawn from the earth and the asteroids and distributed to spawn off projects or people's usage
21:41 < kanzure_> so everything might have to be somewhat tainted in the mean time
21:41 < kanzure_> unless we have like absolute total confirmation :)
21:41 < kanzure_> which would mean we still need data monkeys anyway
21:42 < fenn> what is COUNT(*)
21:43 < kanzure_> counts the number of results with "*" column.
21:43 < kanzure_> presumably all of them should have that column
21:43 < fenn> kanzure_: still requires an earth and asteroids etc
21:43 < fenn> hence varying degrees of taintedness
21:43 < kanzure_> but if you're doing a multi-table select statement, results from one table that don't match with another wouldn't have that column or something
21:43 < kanzure_> fenn: what? 
21:43 < kanzure_> fenn: in the automated procurement instances, presumably you have land surveying equipment and such
21:44 < kanzure_> so that you at least know preliminarily what the incoming materials should be
21:44 < kanzure_> then you just need to make sure nothing has damaged it on its way from mining operation to fablab-267a
21:44 < fenn> eh sorry i mixed up taintedness dimensions
21:45 < fenn> there's unobtanium and mysterium
21:45 < kanzure_> and turtles and pythons.
21:45 < fenn> complexity and nonlinear dynamics!
21:47 < kanzure_> guess I have to live with the monkeys and automated material analysis equipment ideas for now
21:47 < fenn> is there a 'sql to C converter'
21:47 < kanzure_> django is python->SQL for what it's worth
21:47 < kanzure_> it converts the data structures into sql tables and the like
21:48 < kanzure_> there really should be sql->C-datastructs. 
21:48 < kanzure_> it's not hard.
21:48 < fenn> i meant sql query to c code
21:48 < fenn> anyway, its just me being lazy
22:09 < kanzure_> it's weird how projects get completed. materials coming from out of nowhere, out of the blue sometimes. this is why I wanted to do the demo website showing four little material sourcing companies putting up responsible XML-like files to say what they have, and to do dynamic bidding contracts (or at least saying "yes, we could give 50 Mg of carbon for this project" as a designer sits there making up some system from the parts + materials databases. 
22:10 < kanzure_> (of course, then the patrons would need to have monkeys too)
22:10 < kanzure_> erm
22:10 < kanzure_> after 'materials databases.' It was:
22:10 < kanzure_> But it also occurs to me that it might be interesting to put everything that is 'tainted', in the sense of (1) having materials that aren't characterized, and (2) having materials that aren't available on the system/network, thrown up on a website where patrons can kindly see what everybody needs to get their Awesome Project rolling. These patrons would just have some preferential selection algorithms to see which designs and projects would be inte
22:11 < fenn> you know about 'rational street performer protocol'?
22:11 < kanzure_> .. and projects would be .. just press the 'go button'
22:11 < kanzure_> no?
22:11 < kanzure_> http://logiarithmic.net/pfh/rspp
22:11 < fenn> takes a while to read and then seems like common sense once you get it: http://www.logarithmic.net/pfh/rspp
22:12 < fenn> he says money but it could be just about anything
22:12 < kanzure_> 'system of conditional pledges' <-- yay
22:14 < kanzure_> (which is also the "ebay with agents to proxy for you while you're away just in case you want to be in on that awesome trading circle that spontaneously shows up")
22:14 < kanzure_> *show up
22:14 < fenn> unfortunately equipment isn't infinitely divisible or easily valuated
22:14 < fenn> so we're sorta back to barter
22:14 < kanzure_> what do you mean?
22:14 < kanzure_> I was thinking of something like
22:14 < fenn> you can't pledge half an oscilloscope
22:14 < kanzure_> "here's my super-awesome rocket"
22:15 < kanzure_> "I need some metals that I don't have, who would like to help?
22:15 < kanzure_> "
22:15 < kanzure_> "ooh, I have teh metals. *click*"
22:15 < fenn> hmm real life example
22:15 < kanzure_> heh, it would be interesting to see people pledging to go open source after they receive materials to do their first implementation
22:16 < fenn> i sent two netier xl1000 thin client computers to marcin jakubowski, on the premise that he would use them to complete his CNC acetylene torch table
22:16 < kanzure_> yeah?
22:16 < fenn> however he doesn't have stepper drivers etc
22:16 < kanzure_> is that just a cnc with a torch tooltip?
22:16 < fenn> now i paid good money for these so i dont want them to just go to waste, i'd rather wait until he has pledges for stepper drives
22:16 < kanzure_> by "just" I mean "just the most awesome thing ever"
22:17 < fenn> yes, its for cutting out compressed earth block press parts
22:17 < kanzure_> bwahah.
22:17 < fenn> an equivalent plasma cutter would cost too much
22:17 < fenn> (steel is too thick)
22:17 < fenn> (i guess)
22:17 < fenn> or maybe they just wanted to do something semi-original
22:18 < fenn> anyhoo
22:18 < kanzure_> it's not right for things to fall off the face of the internet just because somebody couldn't get materials to do it
22:19 < kanzure_> unless it was unobtanium in the sense of impossibilium
22:19 < fenn> i'm not sure about that
22:19 < fenn> a lot of projects fall under the category of "bad art"
22:19 < kanzure_> the data should still be there.
22:20 < fenn> take mister collins 'self replicator' for example
22:20 < kanzure_> would you kill a human for being bad art?
22:20 < kanzure_> even collins' 'replicator' is in the archive
22:20 < kanzure_> (uh, maybe)
22:20 < kanzure_> *the internet archive
22:20 < fenn> kanzure_: there's a difference, a human has intrinsic value, art does not
22:20 < fenn> art has value through being appreciated
22:20 < kanzure_> "Self-creation is the highest art."
22:21 < fenn> says so-and-so
22:21 < kanzure_> engineering is not an art?
22:21 < kanzure_> this is a slippery slope
22:21 < fenn> sometimes it's not
22:21 < kanzure_> not sure I care enough
22:21 < fenn> anyway the point was there's a lot of dumbasses out there who will be accepting pledges of cool stuff so they can do stupid things with them
22:22 < kanzure_> doesn't this always happen?
22:22 < fenn> i dont think it's unfair to not give them cool stuff
22:22 < kanzure_> ok ok
22:22 < kanzure_> let me qualify my statement, I'm not interested in fairness, I'd just rather not have things be deleted
22:22 < kanzure_> cleaning up my hdd's is like removing limbs, etc. etc.
22:22 < fenn> that's completely different
22:22 < fenn> data compression problem more than anything
22:23 < kanzure_> matter compression problem maybe?
22:23 < kanzure_> hlfkajfkl;as
22:23 < fenn> if you can recreate the half finished project from what information is available, what's the problem?
22:23 < kanzure_> sourcing materials.
22:23 < kanzure_> which was what I was talking about in the first place :)
22:24 < fenn> you're going in circles now
22:24 < kanzure_> oh
22:24 < kanzure_> I'm confused
22:24 < kanzure_> what am I supposed to be arguing?
22:24 < fenn> how everyone is supposed to get everything
22:24 < kanzure_> that's a hard one.
22:25 < fenn> it's "post-scarcity economics"
22:26 < fenn> i think the answer is just to design free hardware with no unobtanium components
22:26 < kanzure_> what's the sliding scale on unobtanium/taintedness or how is that defined?
22:26 < fenn> and reduce the price of materials to below the cost of keeping track of them
22:26 < kanzure_> it would be interesting to do it discretely for each material
22:26 < kanzure_> or each part and tool involved etc
22:27 < kanzure_> so for each person that wants to get that hardware or make it or whatever,
22:27 < kanzure_> they get their readout of materials they have in their inventory, as well as potential 
22:27 < kanzure_> what did we call it? potential patrons?
22:27 < fenn> potential donations?
22:27 < kanzure_> something like that
22:27 < fenn> ooh maybe we can slip the word virtual in there somewhere
22:28 < fenn> virtual donation *click*
22:28 < fenn> i feel so... 90's
22:28 -!- percent_ is now known as jihaaaaaaad
22:28 < kanzure_> do we just randomly add 'virtual' to anything or something?
22:28 < fenn> no, only when it's virtual, silly
22:29 < fenn> i havent actually donated my frobknob yet
22:29 < fenn> its dependent on other virtual donations
22:29 < kanzure_> bloorgh
22:29 < kanzure_> Consider The Following
22:29 < fenn> when all conditions are met, then they become real bequeathments (cant think of the right word)
22:29 < kanzure_> given no automatic metadata for materials and parts in a system,
22:30 < kanzure_> somebody could really really be smart constricting the growth of a community
22:30 < kanzure_> as long as that community is dependent on that single repository
22:30 < kanzure_> (I was thinking of this in the sense of modern economics. Without this context it's a "duh" thing.)
22:31 < kanzure_> okay, so, more intereting would be to make this more of a reality ..
22:31 < fenn> yes most people just buy something from the store instead of going to the trouble of tracking a free one down
22:31 < kanzure_> how about a way to calculate an estimated amount of time until a project is from 'completely infeasible' to 'feasible' given the available donors and such?
22:31 < fenn> we have this thing 'freecycle' but its such a joke
22:31  * kanzure_ uses freecycle
22:32 < fenn> i have all this crap i want to get rid of but the dumpster is so much easier
22:32 < kanzure_> I picked up a good number of boxes (both real boxes and boxes of boxen) from freecyclers
22:32 < kanzure_> also this monitor.
22:32 < fenn> would much rather just take it to a warehouse and let people dig through it, instead of laboriously cataloging and then arranging pickups etc
22:33 < kanzure_> don't get me started on all of the random driving required for pickups
22:33 < kanzure_> that's just carpooling problem waiting to be solved
22:33 < fenn> its a bad system
22:33 < kanzure_> shortest path algorithm, I mean.
22:33 < fenn> 'hubbing it' works
22:33 < kanzure_> huh?
22:33 < fenn> traveling salesman is a bad situation to be in
22:33 < kanzure_> the openmanufacturing@googlegroups.com guys wanted an open source automated car to pickup materials from locations on streets
22:33 < kanzure_> heh
22:34 < fenn> if there were a freecycling center it might be worth it
22:34 < fenn> openmanufacturing when?
22:34 < kanzure_> weeks ago?
22:35 < fenn> it must have been in one of the three threads :P
22:35 < kanzure_> anyway, like I was saying
22:35 < kanzure_> it would be interesting to be able to give estimates about completability, feasability, time-to-manufacture, based off of all of the acquisitions that are required and such
22:36 < kanzure_> this would give people some interesting numbers to make donations to such initiatives
22:36 < kanzure_> either for individual projects, or upgrading 'fablab-253894' in their local community, whatever
22:36 < fenn> that sounds like a system waiting to be cheated
22:36 < kanzure_> corporate goons?
22:36 < fenn> "why of course my fusor 9000 is inherently feasible"
22:37 < kanzure_> wouldn't that be something that skdb validation scripts are checking?
22:37 < kanzure_> things requiring more research should be labeled as such.
22:37 < fenn> i just need a five megawatt HV power supply, a porsche, and three sexy interns
22:37 < kanzure_> peer review too
22:37  * kanzure_ wishes he had three sexy interns.
22:38 < fenn> peer review = trust network
22:38 < fenn> (badly implemented, historically)
22:38 < kanzure_> sure. pgp trust circles.
22:38 < kanzure_> 'trust circles of wankery' :(
22:38 < fenn> right
22:38 < fenn> with monopoly on funding decisions
22:38 < kanzure_> aww crap
22:39 < kanzure_> what sucks is that, as it stands, everybody is stuck on the same boat
22:40 < kanzure_> in the future it'd be easy to say "go find yer own damn molecular cloud in a few hundred thousand years" but not so much the case here. 
22:40 < fenn> semi-OT; emc machine preview/simulator can now show arbitrary geometry: http://emergent.unpy.net/files/sandbox/base_stl.png
22:41 < kanzure_> maybe we can hope that the donators with the resources are smart enough to avoid the fusor 9000s?
22:42 < fenn> that was the idea behind capitalism
22:42 < fenn> i'll let you decide if that was an optimistic or pessimistic statement
22:42 < kanzure_> oh, that's right, that's why we call it philanthropy .. you can't guarantee that something is going to work. but you can at least hold people accountable (capitalism?).
22:43 < fenn> you distribute the computation
22:43 < kanzure_> hm?
22:43 < fenn> however it unfairly(?) forces multiple people to perform the same estimation calculation when it could be shared
22:44 < kanzure_> also: debian and USPTO have their little guardians blocking the gates from bullshit. uspto less so.
22:44 < fenn> "is the fusor 9000 worth investing X dollars in?" could be hashed and the result shared (tagged with the hash key)
22:45 < fenn> kanzure_: one thing i dont like about debian is precisely that, but i dont know how to resolve it
22:45 < kanzure_> well, splitting it is one way I would think
22:45 < fenn> its the same thing with wikipedia
22:45 < kanzure_> forking
22:45 < kanzure_> also user policies maybe .. "don't download xyz" 
22:45 < fenn> well, sorta, the reason it is the way it is, is the structure of the system that generates the social situation
22:45 < fenn> (yuck)
22:46 < fenn> so forking won't do anything different without a shitload of refactoring, because you are running the same system
22:46 < kanzure_> benevolent dictator that just-so-happens-to-be-running-things-well? (or to-have-stumbled-into-a-good-previous-dictatorship)
22:47 < fenn> WP doesnt really have a benevolent dictator, it's too big
22:47 < kanzure_> I'm not really sure if you could say they have social /structure/
22:48 < kanzure_> I know some admins that seem to have very little, if any ties, to the inner community of adminships
22:48 < fenn> hm. i dont really know. would be nice to see some pretty pictures
22:48 < kanzure_> that's actually doable .. via looking for people talking to each other on the talk pages
22:49 < fenn> also what do you compare it to?
22:49 < fenn> does myspace have a social structure? what does?
22:49 < kanzure_> do you remember everybody hating somebody on myspace?
22:49 < kanzure_> the guy who put himself as everybody's friend
22:49 < kanzure_> that's hardly structure. even though the graph says so.
22:51 < fenn> show me social structure and we might have something worth studying
22:52 < facefaceface> I wanted to implement the 'opinion-ome', a wiki where you place an opinion, then tag it with a category. 
22:52 < kanzure_> facefaceface: http://canonizer.com/ does that
22:52 < kanzure_> it sucks.
22:52 < kanzure_> trust me.
22:52 < fenn> Total Information Awareness program was doing in-depth research on strategies to analyze social networks to determine whether or not U.S. citizens were political threats.
22:52 < facefaceface> then people rate your opinion, and other people rate their rating of your opinion
22:52 < kanzure_> yes, that's exactly what canonizer is
22:52 < fenn> its quite possible there's a "conspiracy" to break up any significantly organized structures
22:52 < facefaceface> and the rating of their opinions weights their weighting of your opinion
22:53 < kanzure_> so you're talking about the different types/implementations of social structs, yes fenn?
22:53 < kanzure_> I wonder what the structure equates to though
22:53 < facefaceface> kanzure_, does it use categories?
22:53 < kanzure_> facefaceface: yep
22:53 < fenn> just localized order created by rules in a system
22:53 < kanzure_> and you get to place your vote on issues with various people that share your opinion set or whatever
22:53 < kanzure_> all sorts of bullshit.
22:53  * fenn is getting very NKS'y
22:53 < facefaceface> so my opinion in cookery counts for more, because people who are cooks rate my opinions?
22:54 < kanzure_> fenn: yeah, but what do the rules /imply/ ? like, debian's social contract. great. but there's no 'consequences'. or "this social structure is simply phpbb. k. done."
22:54 < facefaceface> hmm.. http seems down, but I can talk here
22:54 < fenn> opinionrank algorithm?
22:54 < kanzure_> or "weekly irc meetings" (which was the case)
22:54 < facefaceface> doh
22:54 < facefaceface> fenn, zactly
22:55 < fenn> kanzure_: well, the structure can possibly say something about the rules that created it
22:55 < fenn> you can then infer what sort of rules lead to different social structures
22:55 < kanzure_> what do we mean by structure
22:56 < fenn> and decide which rules to use based on your preferred structure
22:56 < fenn> i dont know, i'm sorta like a blind man with no elephants
22:56 < facefaceface> kanzure_, I'll have to look at http://canonizer.com/ more closely - it seems to be what I was thinking about.
22:56 < kanzure_> facefaceface: I have ssh access if you ever want to do some development work or something
22:57 < kanzure_> fenn: you mean no turtles.
22:57 < fenn> canonizer has ~zero participation, there must be some reason it's unpopular
22:57 < kanzure_> there is good reason it's unpopular.
22:57 < kanzure_> if you meet brent, you start to see why.
22:57 < facefaceface> rules like X believes y, Z believes X, so 'we' should believe y to the extent that X does and to the lesser extent that Z does via X
22:57 < kanzure_> he's going for goody-goody "everybody's opinion matters! stop telling me your opinion and go systemicize it and make friends with others with the same opinion" 
22:57 < kanzure_> erm
22:57 < kanzure_> it's worse than I'm making it sound
22:57 < facefaceface> fenn, its hard to get people invoved with anythign that has no payoff
22:57 < kanzure_> it's also just a bad idea
22:58 < kanzure_> why would this system be centralized anyway,
22:58 < fenn> facefaceface: thank you
22:58 < facefaceface> kanzure_, why?
22:58 < kanzure_> "Hello, you've reached the Centralized Opinion System."
22:58 < kanzure_> "Please sit down to begin your prayers."
22:58 < facefaceface> kanzure_, hello welcome to Nature
22:58 < kanzure_> the journal?
22:58 < facefaceface> submit your paper and hope to hell we treat you fairly...
22:58 < fenn> it has to be centralized in order to calculate the statistics
22:58 < facefaceface> yes
22:59 < fenn> the complete statistics
22:59 < fenn> otherwise you're back to random sampling
22:59 < fenn> or not-so-random sampling
22:59 < kanzure_> who says it's complete ...
22:59 < facefaceface> yup, like page rank but more complex... I suppose you could fully decentralize the day everybody starts using the semantic web...
22:59 < fenn> its complete with respect to itself
22:59 < facefaceface> ;-)
22:59 < kanzure_> just like your opinion is complete with respect to itself?
22:59 < kanzure_> geeze, this is going nowhere
22:59 < kanzure_> uhm
23:00 < kanzure_> speaking of going nowhere, I need to go get some foods
23:00 < facefaceface> ok, but you are wrong
23:00 < facefaceface> ;-)
23:00 < fenn> well, if i knew more about statistics i might be able to explain, but it's not worth the trouble
23:00 < kanzure_> go write your opinion on canonizer so that I'll never hear it
23:00 < kanzure_> 'good ideas' *compile*
23:00 < kanzure_> it's a different type of 'it works'
23:00 < facefaceface> my opinion as a scientist is backed up by other scientists who rate my work on the basis of there judgement 
23:01 < kanzure_> yikes
23:01 < fenn> argument from authority codified
23:01 < facefaceface> its true
23:01 < fenn> trust circle wankery
23:01 < kanzure_> yay trust circles
23:01 < facefaceface> so when I apply for a job, people say - is this guy any good? Well, has he published...
23:01 < fenn> everyone hold hands and dance for the end of the world
23:01 < kanzure_> we were talking about that with PLOS at BioBarCamp
23:01 < kanzure_> everybody was booing and hissing at that stuff
23:02 < facefaceface> I didn't say people were not idiots
23:02 < fenn> what's wrong with PLoS?
23:02 < kanzure_> nothing
23:02 < kanzure_> but they were talking about things like 'impact factor'
23:02 < fenn> why were they booing it?
23:02 < kanzure_> and hiring based off of 'impact factor'
23:02 < fenn> ugh, that shit's the problem, not plos
23:02 < kanzure_> right
23:02 < kanzure_> "we were talking about that with PLOS"
23:02 < kanzure_> "hissing at that stuff"
23:02 < fenn> scientists need to organize some beheadings
23:02 < kanzure_> nowhere did I say PLOS is doing it
23:03 < facefaceface> how do you rate a scientist?
23:03 < kanzure_> why would you
23:03 < fenn> i dont care how you rate a scientist
23:03 < facefaceface> how do you decide who to employ?
23:03 < kanzure_> fuck that shit
23:03 < kanzure_> employment is a broken concept
23:03 < facefaceface> which papers do you read?
23:03 < kanzure_> all of them
23:03  * kanzure_ has all of nature :)
23:03 < facefaceface> how many papers to you commit to memory?
23:03 < kanzure_> you commit papers to memory?
23:04 < kanzure_> honest question
23:04 < facefaceface> how many facts about nature do you assume?
23:04 < kanzure_> yer doing it wrong
23:04 < facefaceface> not the whole thing
23:04 < fenn> scientist submits a proposal, send results to people in the field to see if it's worth keeping.. are opinions unanimous? if not, why not?
23:04 < facefaceface> kanzure_, I'm doing science
23:04 < kanzure_> uh
23:04 < fenn> s/results/proposal/
23:05 < fenn> if there's argument about it, there must be some kernel of truth
23:05 < facefaceface> of course one should keep an open mind, but the basis of any research is information about what has come before.
23:05 < facefaceface> that information is filtered by its 'usefulness' in some more or less objective sense
23:05 < kanzure_> people are stupid, Eliezer has been working on proving this for the past decade or something :p
23:05 < kanzure_> god I just cited eliezer
23:05 < kanzure_> I suck.
23:05  * kanzure_ eats and goes off to cry
23:05  * facefaceface pats kanzure_ on the back
23:05 < fenn> usefulness isn't objective at all, it's entirely subjective
23:06 < facefaceface> fenn, circles of trust?
23:06 < fenn> what bout them?
23:06 < facefaceface> if the fact confirms your observation, then its useful 
23:06 < facefaceface> facts build on facts
23:06 < facefaceface> or perhaps I should say theories
23:06 < fenn> md5sum of 'foo' is d3b07384d113edec49eaa6238ad5ff00
23:06 < fenn> is that useful?
23:06 < fenn> it's a fact
23:06 < facefaceface> which is why I say "I'm doing science"
23:07 < facefaceface> its useful if it confirms a particular theory about what I believe to be the data in foo
23:07 < fenn> wtf are you parroting
23:07 < facefaceface> confirms or refutes
23:07 < facefaceface> parroting?
23:07 < fenn> say i have 9 metric tons of gold, is it useful?
23:08 < facefaceface> its an object, I thought we were talking about philosophy of science
23:08 < fenn> i'm just trying to show why utility depends on the subject
23:08 < facefaceface> OK, in that sense I take your point... in the *final* analysis *everything* is relative.
23:09 < facefaceface> but in the final analysis, everything is doomed - it doesn't stop others trying to live for ever
23:09 < fenn> if humans had infinite computational ability, simple ("elegant") scientific theories would be less useful
23:09 < facefaceface> it doesn't stop me trying to build a model of the world
23:09 < facefaceface> sure
23:09 < facefaceface> but we don't right?
23:09 < facefaceface> so we approximate
23:09 < fenn> (re "everything is doomed" have you heard of tipler's omega point?)
23:09 < facefaceface> fenn, anyway... I forget why I even went down this road...
23:09 < facefaceface> no
23:10 < fenn> well its a good side track
23:10 < facefaceface> the fact that perhaps we could rate science objectively, if we assess it in terms of some existing models - which is a bit like circle of trust.
23:10 < facefaceface> which is how we tend to rate science...
23:11 < facefaceface> but we call it objective even though we know it isn't really.
23:11 < facefaceface> simply because we take our hypothesis-es for laws
23:11 < facefaceface> hypothesi?
23:11 < fenn> i just dislike the current system of parasite publishing companies having all the 'impact factor'
23:12 < fenn> it stinks of system abuse
23:12 < facefaceface> fenn, agreed (about companies)
23:12 < facefaceface> what is parasite publishing?
23:12 < fenn> elsevier, wiley
23:12 < facefaceface> oh
23:12 < facefaceface> yeah, the opinion-ome is an idea to get rid of them
23:12 < facefaceface> the idea is to set it up and try some algorithms.
23:13 < fenn> so you'd use opinion-ome to rate scientists?
23:13 < fenn> this sorta reminds me of whuffie
23:13 < facefaceface> its all very well discussing ideas for scientific reform, but experements like PLoS One and things like opinon-ome are necessary
23:13 < facefaceface> fenn, yea, or specifically papers by scientists, and hence scientists by inference
23:14 < facefaceface> but only within categories, and conditional on what others thought of what they thought.
23:14 < fenn> one problem i see is the whole principle investigator structure
23:14 < fenn> if you rate papers
23:14 < facefaceface> so 'cliques' of belief could emerge (somehow), representing alternative theories in a field, for example.
23:14 < fenn> graduate student does all the hard work and PI gets credit because his name is on all the papers
23:14 < facefaceface> what is that?
23:15 < fenn> so then PI gets ranked as "awesome demi-god scientist"
23:15 < fenn> and student is "piddling pissant"
23:15 < fenn> just through sheer quantity
23:15 < facefaceface> but the students name should be on there right?
23:15 < fenn> yes but they only have one paper
23:15 < facefaceface> but its a good one right?
23:15 < fenn> yep
23:16 < facefaceface> so they are well placed to get a good next position
23:16 < fenn> somehow i messed up this explanation
23:16 < facefaceface> and continue good work and continue building their ... how the hell do you spell corea?
23:16 < facefaceface> career?
23:16 < facefaceface> ok
23:16 < fenn> heheh you must be british
23:17 < facefaceface> what woudl you say?
23:17 < facefaceface> spell?
23:17 < fenn> career
23:17 < fenn> words..
23:18 < kanzure_> increasingly coherent over increasing context
23:18 < facefaceface> oh well... time to work on my 'reply to reviewers'
23:18 < fenn> multiple perspectives are useful though
23:18 < fenn> top-down gets boring
23:18 < fenn> er, s/top-down/birds eye view/
23:19 < fenn> facefaceface: just remember to wear gloves when handling the explosives
23:20 < kanzure_> extropy covers many of these topics of growth and managing philosophy of science.
23:20 < kanzure_> by 'extropy' I refer to the mailing list
23:20 < fenn> tell them to work on something coherent then
23:20 < fenn> extropian manifesto
23:21 < kanzure_> uh
23:21 < fenn> nevermind
23:22 < fenn> context helps resolve ambiguities due to vagueness
23:22 < kanzure_> kinda like, say, http://maxmore.com/extprn3.htm
23:22 < facefaceface> kanzure_, canonizer isn't quite what I had in mind, but I'll have a look.
23:22 < fenn> 'extropian principles' document is rather vague and context-less
23:22 < kanzure_> that's true.
23:22 < kanzure_> there's been something recent in the mailing list that could be useful here
23:22 < kanzure_> just a sec
23:23 < fenn> US legal system resolves vagueness with "precedent" which rather sucks
23:23 < kanzure_> http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/2008-October/046112.html
23:27 < fenn> it's turtles all the way down
23:27 < kanzure_> that's in the next message (click "Next message" at the top/bottom)
23:29 < kanzure_> hah, in damien's link
23:29 < kanzure_> "there might be a final theory, a theory of the superturtle, if you will .."
23:29 -!- kanzure_ is now known as superturtle
23:29 < superturtle> hehe
23:29 < fenn> whatever, it's just the same thing all over again
23:29 < fenn> plato's allegory of the cave
23:29  * fenn points to the "no philosphy" sign in the topic
23:30 < fenn> this is why i'm a chauvinist
23:32 < fenn> hm. impossible to find a good definition of chauvinism
23:32 < fenn> its the idea that "of course i'm right, otherwise i wouldnt believe what i believe"
23:32 < superturtle> chauvinist == "together, we hate everything" ?
23:32 < superturtle> ah.
23:33 < fenn> and also explicitly "and so should you"
23:35 < fenn> that superturtle page.. i like the zooming out picture sequence
23:37 < fenn> "the typical size of a social network is constrained to about 150 members due to possible limits in the capacity of the human communication channel."
23:37 < superturtle> bwahah
23:37 < superturtle> oh, I guess I shouldn't be laughing
23:38 < superturtle> I'm *pretty sure* I keep track of more people than that
23:38 < fenn> certainly
23:38 < superturtle> I don't have an official count though
23:38 < fenn> i probably only keep track of 50 people
23:38 < fenn> it's a bell curve thing really
23:38 < superturtle> well, I be stupid and I sacrifice depth-of-keeping-up for breadth.
23:39 < fenn> anyway it's a regularity that we should be able to spot by studying social networks
23:40 < fenn> not sure if it really matters in the long run
23:42 < superturtle> what if there's a way to know when to abandon ship
23:42 < fenn> when to abandon what?
23:42 < superturtle> when the trust networks turn to pure wankery
23:42 < superturtle> a way to abandon the system and reboot
23:43  * fenn mumbles something about mutation and objectivity
23:43 < superturtle> you'll have to mumble a bit more
23:43 < fenn> the problem is a bit harder with science because ostensibly science is the way out
23:44 < fenn> "just look dammit" "we are looking!"
23:44 < superturtle> wait, science?
23:44 < superturtle> I thought we were talking about projects, design and stuff
23:44 < superturtle> which science does fall into I guess
23:44 < fenn> you were talking about trust circle wankery
23:44 < superturtle> right
23:44 < fenn> which i associate with tenured professors reviewing my grant proposal
23:44 < superturtle> you were talking about your fusor 9000 example
23:45 < superturtle> a way to tell when the system is being spammed/flooded or just going to hell
23:45 < fenn> fusor 9000 is just taking advantage of a lack of coherence in the trust network
23:45 < fenn> so its sort of the opposite case
23:46 < fenn> if i said "look it runs java" then i'd be taking advantage of trust circle wankery
23:46 < fenn> but if nobody has any idea what it is, and it gets funded, that's bad system design?
23:46  * fenn looks up what gave rise to the fusor 9000 comment
23:47 < fenn> right. you were suggesting that the person submitting the proposal also give an estimate as to its feasibility
23:47 < superturtle> nooo
23:47 < superturtle> not the person
23:47 < fenn> then who?
23:48 < superturtle> teh codes
23:48 < fenn> but.. code is stupid
23:48 < fenn> it doesn't know anything
23:48 < fenn> only what it has been told
23:48 < fenn> complete lack of inference and "objectivity"
23:49 < fenn> oh i dunno maybe you can hack together some neural network to recognize "feasible" characteristics, but that could easily be hacked by system-players
23:49 < superturtle> separation of experimental versus "untainted projects"
23:49 < fenn> (humans can also be gamed/hacked)
23:49 < superturtle> "untainted" meaning "sure thing"
23:49 < fenn> no it does not
23:50 < fenn> untainted means we know what is in it
23:50 < fenn> you have to run the experiment to find the results
23:50 < superturtle> I'm also referring to the designs.
23:50 < superturtle> sure
23:50 < fenn> you cant run the simulator to find the results
23:50 < superturtle> I said experimental versus untained
23:50 < superturtle> not "experimental is untainted"
23:50 < fenn> different dimension
23:50 < fenn> its experimental vs not-experimental
23:50 < fenn> whatever that means
23:51 < fenn> untested vs tested
23:51 < superturtle> it still has the same implications though. like "we know it will work" in the experimental/nonexperimental distinction, compare to "well, it might work if you got xyz material"
23:51 < fenn> tested-works vs tested-fail
23:52 < fenn> i dont think experimental/nonexperimental is very clear
23:53 < fenn> maybe flag something as "worked in the simulator"
23:53 < superturtle> you're not about to argue with me that you can't verify a lego design
23:53 < superturtle> I mean, if it's possible to build it with legos, it's going to be built ;-)
23:53 < superturtle> within constraints of the materials of course
23:53 < superturtle> which are in the system supposedly.
23:53 < fenn> hmm. you havent seen much GA output eh?
23:53 < fenn> they'll hack your lego simulator to bloody bits
23:54 < fenn> "i didnt know legos could do that!" "they cant"
23:54 < superturtle> if you allow the operators in the GA to be only possible moves then how would you get impossible things?
23:54 < fenn> shit happens
23:54 < fenn> the difference between theory and practice is much greater in practice
23:55 < fenn> sorry to get all dogmatic on you
23:56 < superturtle> okay.
23:56 < fenn> certainly i would like to see some GA putting legos together
23:56 < superturtle> I'm okay with never being sure that the design is going to work, or that my code might not compile
23:56 < fenn> good
23:56 < superturtle> we just need a system where everything isn't based on the hope that it will work.
23:57 < fenn> just dont try to lump everything together into the same variable
23:59 < fenn> even with supposedly "tested" code, or "replicable experiments" things can go wrong
23:59 < superturtle> sure
23:59 < fenn> there ought to be a science of testing
23:59 < superturtle> and of debugging
23:59 < fenn> same thing really