--- Day changed Thu Oct 09 2008
00:00 < xp_prg> so sounds like we have a good design now
00:00 < fenn> we've identified the massive blank areas
00:02 < kanzure_> think of it like a college kid trying to remember his freshman year of parties.
00:04 < kanzure> ooh
00:04 < kanzure> I have a treat :)
00:05 < kanzure_> for those of us that can view pptx files
00:05 < fenn> nup
00:05 < xp_prg> what is a pptx file?
00:05 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/repo/presentations/ :)
00:05 < kanzure_> pptx is apparently the latest powerpoint BS
00:05 < kanzure_> I'm sure openoffice can do it.
00:05 < fenn> one line summary please
00:06 < kanzure_> automated design presentation from Automated Design Lab point of view
00:06 < kanzure_> *presentations
00:06 < kanzure_> so basically everything we talk about :)
00:06 < fenn> "user is stupid let computer do the work"?
00:06 < kanzure_> hah
00:06 < fenn> hmm that's not terribly specific is it
00:07 < kanzure_> optimization, search algorithms, black boxen, 'flow' diagrams, configuration function diagrams (or whatever), 
00:08  * fenn has a black box belt in the works
00:08 < kanzure_> turlte belt?
00:08 < kanzure_> *turtle
00:08 < fenn> AA battery belt
00:08 < kanzure_> bah, you functionalist scum.
00:09 < fenn> not ipoddy enough for you?
00:09 < kanzure_> what?
00:09 < fenn> AA is the greatest turtle i've had the pleasure of dealing with
00:09 < kanzure_> well, actually, I prefer the battery belt
00:09 < kanzure_> AA is a good turtle I suppose
00:10 < kanzure_> kind of acidic though, doesn't that worry you
00:10 < kanzure_> for the turtle soup :)
00:10 < fenn> also known as LR44
00:10 < fenn> oops not LR44
00:10 < fenn> LR6!
00:11 < fenn> not sure what the difference is
00:11 < fenn> anyway, supposedly you can even get li-ion AA's
00:12 < kanzure_> huh. what luck. no pptx viewer for linux.
00:14 < bkero> The fuck is a pptx?
00:14 < kanzure_> Pure evil.
00:16 < fenn> $0.50/watt*hr is about the same as NiMH but lighter and no stupid self-discharge
00:16 < fenn> why the hell do i have 'botten anna' stuck in my head
00:17 < bkero> Just go with LiFePO3's
00:17 < fenn> where do i buy one in AA?
00:18 < bkero> If you really want size constraints just get an 18650
00:18 < bkero> You can get those relatively close to AA size
00:18 < kanzure_> relatively close? heh'
00:18 < kanzure_> why would they bother making it "slightly off from AA" ?
00:18 < kanzure_> seriously?
00:18 < bkero> They don't.
00:18 < kanzure_> just to screw with you?
00:18 < xp_prg> what a cool presentation, you using genetic algorithms?
00:18 < kanzure_> xp_prg: yes
00:18 < bkero> 18650s are almost as common as AAs.
00:18 < kanzure_> xp_prg: and SA
00:18 < xp_prg> what you coding in?
00:18 < xp_prg> perl?
00:18 < fenn> i'm having trouble finding LiFePO3 batts
00:18 < xp_prg> what is SA?
00:18 < kanzure_> perl, java, C#, all sorts of stuff
00:18 < kanzure_> SA = simulated annealing
00:18 < bkero> fenn: Look for lithium polymers
00:19 < kanzure_> it's like GA but population size = 1
00:19 < xp_prg> cool
00:19 < kanzure_> yes
00:19 < kanzure_> oh
00:19 < kanzure_> even better news! :)
00:19 < fenn> bkero: i think you're missing the point
00:19 < bkero> fenn: what is the point?
00:19 < kanzure_> bioreactor project is getting Dow funding!
00:19  * kanzure_ does a happy dance
00:19 < fenn> bkero: to have a generic battery form factor that can be easily procured and/or upgraded when necessary
00:20 < bkero> fenn: 18650s with tabs
00:20 < xp_prg> kanzure wow man really?!
00:20 < kanzure_> yes
00:20 < xp_prg> you just found that out?
00:20 < bkero> You put them in PVC tubes
00:20 < kanzure_> yes
00:20 < xp_prg> how much you getting?
00:20 < kanzure_> xp_prg: unknown
00:20 < kanzure_> xp_prg: But they're very interested in the 10,000 gallon version we're doing this year -- this is the bioreactor-algae-biodiesel subset project
00:20 < bkero> 18650s are more dense, you can get them for pretty cheap, they have a longer cycle life, and they have a better chemistry.
00:20 < xp_prg> kanzure_ what does this project do they are interested in?
00:20 < xp_prg> make bio disel cheaply?
00:20 < fenn> but i have to spot weld them
00:20 < kanzure_> biodiesel
00:21 < kanzure_> very cheaply.
00:21 < xp_prg> how much per gallon?
00:21 < kanzure_> 1 g lipids per liter.
00:21 < bkero> fenn: Or just buy them with tabs.  Most places will weld them on for you for free.  Some charge $0.50/cell
00:21 < kanzure_> doubling rate of 24 hours at the moment
00:21 < kanzure_> but we're going to kick that up
00:21 < bkero> fenn: Or just use small metal cylinders between the cells in a PVC pipe.  THat's what I do for my bike.
00:21 < kanzure_> with multiple background schedulings of growth rates for multiple subchambers etc.
00:21 < xp_prg> how much will it cost per gallon of bio dizel?
00:22 < kanzure_> cost? light is free
00:22 < xp_prg> no but how much does it cost for the materials averaging to price per gallon?
00:22 < bkero> Uh
00:22 < fenn> bkero: also they are looking around $1.40/Wh
00:22 < bkero> kanzure_: biodiesel?  Are you doing an algae extraction?
00:22 < kanzure_> bkero: yes
00:22 < xp_prg> kanzure will it be like 1.00 a gallon?
00:22 < kanzure_> xp_prg: The entire setup hasn't been cost estimted yet.
00:23 < kanzure_> xp_prg: Not sure.
00:23 < bkero> I've made biodiesel before.  It's really fucking easy.
00:23 < kanzure_> xp_prg: Working on it.
00:23 < xp_prg> will it be less then what we pay now?
00:23 < kanzure_> I don't pay for gasoline as it is, so I don't know
00:23 < kanzure_> or diesel for that matte.r
00:23 < kanzure_> *matter.
00:23 < xp_prg> well its 4.00 a gallon
00:23 < kanzure_> bkero: yeah, so this is pretty fun as you can imagine
00:23 < bkero> 1)  Grow an oil-rich strain of algae.  2)  Heat it up.  3)  Put it in a giant fucking press.  4)  Put it in a gas tank.
00:23 < fenn> or $0.7/Wh in 36 qty which isn't too bad i guess
00:23 < bkero> Or replace 3 with a hexane bath to extract the oil.
00:23 < kanzure_> bkero: Was your heat up process energy efficient?
00:23 < kanzure_> I mean the heat up + press
00:24 < bkero> kanzure_: Yea.  It doesn't require much heat beyond a hot day.
00:24 < kanzure_> Interesting.
00:24 < bkero> Well, a hot day and drying out a while.
00:24 < kanzure_> I was going to go through about 10 or 12 lipid extraction techniques
00:24 < kanzure_> to do some analysis and make sure I'm not being stupid
00:24 < bkero> kanzure_: Just use hexane.  Press is about 70% efficient, hexane bath is 95+
00:24 < kanzure_> also throwing those equations and numbers into OpenFOAM with geometric constraints for the bioreactor well.
00:25 < kanzure_> bkero: Okay. I'll look into that.
00:25 < kanzure_> For some stupid reason we're using algae with strong membranes.
00:25 < bkero> kanzure_: What strains are you using?  I've found that oil rich strains aren't hearty at all.  If you don't keep native algae in check, it'll totally take over your tank.
00:25 < fenn> bkero: you could put the left overs into a thermal depolymerization reactor, to extract the energy from starch/protein etc
00:26 < bkero> Especially strains that have been genetically modified to produce oil.
00:26 < kanzure_> bkero: I'll have to double check on the strain. I've been trying to get the lab partners to send me the information for a week now. ;-)
00:26 < bkero> fenn: Actually a lot of people put it in a digestor to produce methane.
00:26 < kanzure_> It's all in a powerpoint.
00:26 < kanzure_> Everything's by powerpoint these days. :(
00:26 < kanzure_> bkero: No genetic modification at this point.
00:26 < bkero> kanzure_: You should fly me out to check the project out. :P
00:26 < fenn> also with thermal depolymerization you can use wild/natural algae
00:26 < kanzure_> But they are highly selected for pH resistance.
00:26 < kanzure_> bkero: Yeah! oh wait :)
00:26 < bkero> What kind of tank are you using to cultivate it?
00:26 < fenn> just spray a concrete field with fertilizer water
00:27 < kanzure_> bkero: I just told you - I'm doing some CFD/OpenFOAM simulations to determine optimization.
00:27 < fenn> and scrape off the gunk with a bulldozer
00:27 < bkero> Ah
00:27 < kanzure_> bkero: photobioreactor + tubular design sounds really good at this point though
00:27 < bkero> kanzure_: When I did, I didn't have much of a choice.  I used a large plastic septic tank.
00:27 < kanzure_> right
00:27 < kanzure_> At the moment we're using fish tanks
00:27 < fenn> or one of those sprinkler rotor irrigation machines they use on farms
00:27 < kanzure_> and I just lugged up a stupid 150 gallon 'plastic pond'
00:27 < bkero> You want lots of light exposure, and lots of co2 to feed it
00:27 < kanzure_> and some plywood
00:27 < kanzure_> yeah
00:27 < kanzure_> we have a co2 tank at the moment
00:27 < kanzure_> 5000 psi :/
00:28 < kanzure_> I keep forgetting the name of the component that I want to call a compressed air generator
00:28 < kanzure_> compressor?
00:28 < fenn> air compressor?
00:28 < bkero> co2 is easy.  Just have a small bleeder valve attached to both tanks, and make a watertight seal around a hose at the bottom of the algae tank.
00:28 < kanzure_> does it make sense to have an air compressor here?
00:28 < kanzure_> fenn: yep, that's what we have.
00:28 < bkero> Air compressor?  For what?
00:28 < kanzure_> erm, I mean bkero
00:28 < kanzure_> well
00:28 < kanzure_> we have a co2 tank wired up to some sort of generator
00:28 < kanzure_> I'm guessing it's doing compressed air
00:29 < kanzure_> it's really fucking loud
00:29 < fenn> what does it sound like?
00:29 < bkero> Air compressors are pretty sweet, but does algae need oxygen?
00:29 < bkero> (er, air)
00:29 < kanzure_> that's why I'm wondering
00:29 < kanzure_> we have the co2 tank hooked up
00:29 < fenn> algae needs oxygen during the dark cycle
00:29 < kanzure_> oh right
00:29 < kanzure_> :)
00:29 < bkero> Well, then just get a couple gallon air compressor tank, and find some way to automate the bleeder valves.
00:30 < kanzure_> so anyway, charlie/gene has been suggesting pulsed light on an LED at 10 kHz or something
00:30 < bkero> Have an air compressor tank(with compressor) on one valve, and a co2 tank on the other.
00:30 < kanzure_> to make the algae cycle on the photo-light/dark reactions really quick, to kick up the growth rates
00:30 < kanzure_> we don't have an air tank though
00:30 < bkero> Would that work?
00:30 < bkero> Most air compressors have tanks
00:30 < kanzure_> anyway, I'm more interested in making sure the extraction machines are energetically efficient
00:30 < bkero> An air compressor without a tank just looks like a small motor.
00:30 < fenn> i think messing with compressed air and co2 and tanks is way too high tech for growing algae on earth
00:30 < kanzure_> bkero: yep, that's what it looks like
00:30 < fenn> i mean the stuff grows in ponds
00:30 < kanzure_> heh
00:31 < bkero> There's no small metal tank beneath it?
00:31 < kanzure_> fenn: we wnat more than the surface area
00:31 < kanzure_> bkero: correct
00:31 < bkero> You can pick one up at walmart for $20.
00:31 < kanzure_> probably
00:31 < kanzure_> bkero: this is already installed and working.
00:31 < bkero> k
00:31 < bkero> That motor probably isn't rated for 100% duty cycle though. :/  Most new ones aren't.
00:31 < kanzure_> one sad thing about it though
00:31 < kanzure_> is that the professor had to go to home depot or something
00:31 < kanzure_> and buy a ton of valves, washers, screws and other random parts
00:32 < fenn> dont buy a consumer air compressor, period
00:32 < kanzure_> since none of this has size markings on it and so on
00:32 < kanzure_> random trial and error
00:32 < bkero> What's a consumer air compressor?
00:32 < kanzure_> off the shelf?
00:32 < bkero> You mean one of those tiny pieces of shit that you plug into a cigarette lighter?
00:32 < fenn> they are good for pumping up car tires and running your brad nailer
00:32 < kanzure_> ah, yeah, we're not using one of those
00:32 < bkero> No dude.  You would never EVER buy one of those.
00:32 < fenn> not the cigarette lighter, the little pancake ones, or really anything you could buy at wal mart
00:33 < fenn> an air compressor should at least run off 240V
00:33 < bkero> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=90168
00:34 < fenn> this is the one i have: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=93786
00:34 < bkero> When I get back to oregon, the first thing that I"m going to buy is an air compressor.
00:34 < kanzure_> so soon I'll be writing some scripts to throw OpenFOAM together with some lipid extraction simulation stuffs
00:34 < fenn> i think it might be a fun project to make one out of an old car engine
00:34 < kanzure_> and I'm sure I'll yell at all of you for not doing it for me or something
00:35 < fenn> or motorcycle engine
00:35 < bkero> A gas motor?
00:35 < fenn> diesel would be better
00:35 < bkero> Just get an electric motor and AC compressor
00:35 < fenn> AC = air conditioner?
00:35 < bkero> Yes
00:35 < bkero> Just the compressor
00:35 < fenn> yeah, i'm concerned about heat build up though
00:36 < bkero> You'll have more with a car/motorcycle motor.
00:36 < fenn> but it has a radiator :)
00:36 < bkero> That you're going to have to run air though
00:36 < fenn> fan on the crankshaft
00:36 < bkero> Jesus.  You might as well run a car off of it then.
00:36 < bkero> Mine involves no fluids. ;)
00:37 < bkero> and is 90+% efficient.  And can be quiet.
00:37 < fenn> actually, you could fire some of the cylinders with gasoline to make it self powering
00:37 < bkero> And definitely cheaper.
00:37 < fenn> i like the air conditioner idea though, i've thought about adding an additional one to my car as an air compressor
00:38 < fenn> comes with electric clutch even
00:38 < bkero> air compressors have 7 cylinders in them
00:39 < bkero> TBH though, if I were you I'd just get a belt-driven one like http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=93785 and run it off your accessory belt.
00:39 < fenn> nah too big
00:39 < fenn> and you have to run it constantly
00:40 < fenn> i'd want it to run with the engine at idle, if there's no clutch it has to work up to the motor redline without breaking
00:40 < fenn> sort of conflicting requirements
00:40 < bkero> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=94724 looks pretty good for my home purposes.
00:40 < fenn> but with a clutch you can disengage above a certain rpm
00:41 < bkero> Just get a torque converter
00:41 < bkero> That's how automatic cars idle.
00:41 < fenn> why re-engineer all this when the AC compressor already has it?
00:41 < kanzure_> I am confused.
00:42 < kanzure_> redoing an engine or something?
00:42 < fenn> portable air compressor built into the car engine
00:42 < kanzure_> to help with the cylinder explosiosn?
00:42 < kanzure_> *explosions
00:42 < fenn> to run air tools and stuff
00:42 < kanzure_> with good air circulation or something?
00:42 < kanzure_> oh
00:42 < kanzure_> heh
00:42 < bkero> Why not just get a 12v air compressor and keep it in your trunk?
00:42 < fenn> because they suck
00:43 < fenn> i want multiple kW of power
00:43 < fenn> that's the point of air tools right?
00:43  * fenn makes grunting noises
00:43 < kanzure_> Tim?
00:43 < bkero> http://store.kryptonitecustomworks.com/vi45airco.html
00:43 < bkero> 23 amps
00:45 < kanzure_> ugh
00:45 < kanzure_> so
00:45 < kanzure_> the dorm has us on a lighting schedule tonight
00:45 < kanzure_> "BEAT OU" because of the awesome game going on
00:45 < bkero> Assholes
00:45 < kanzure_> evidently one of the eight monitors is causing me to be in violation of the complete darkness I'm supposed to be in
00:46  * fenn drools at http://www.tcservice.com/products.html
00:46 < fenn> kanzure_: the germans are bombing austin?
00:46 < kanzure> what?
00:46 < bkero> Oh god
00:46 < bkero> I wants me some air tools.
00:51 < fenn> i've got some busted electric chainsaws i want to convert to air
00:51 < kanzure_> How would that work?
00:51 < fenn> replace the electric motor with an air motor
00:51 < kanzure_> You'd have some central source of compressed air maybe, either your motorcycle or your shop maybe,
00:51 < kanzure_> ah
00:51 < kanzure_> okay.
00:51 < fenn> and run an air hose to the car
00:52 < fenn> or the shop if it's feasible
00:52 < fenn> air hose is surprisingly cheap from HF
00:52 < fenn> you can even use garden hose
00:52 < kanzure> http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4542 <-- pptx stuff
00:53 < fenn> can't i juse email to google and do 'view as html'?
00:53 < kanzure> dunno?
00:53 < kanzure> please try
01:00 < fenn> hmm i guess you can't attach a url
01:01 < kanzure_> i'll be done in a few moments
01:01 < kanzure_> converting via zamzar.com 
01:01  * fenn watches some MIT machine shop educational videos
01:01 < kanzure_> linkage
01:01 < kanzure_> pic or didn't happen
01:02 < fenn> http://techtv.mit.edu/file/743 or direct link to files: http://fennetic.net//pub/irc/mit_machine_shop
01:03 < kanzure_> your typical video rippage scripts?
01:03 < fenn> it's blip.tv
01:03 < kanzure_> ? should I know of blip.tv?
01:03  * fenn shrugs
01:03 < fenn> they offer the .wmv as a download, but then you have to click a bunch of stuff
01:03 < fenn> wget -i urls
01:04 < fenn> er, wget -i mit_machine_shop
01:05 < kanzure> no such file http://fennetic.net//pub/irc/mit_machine_shop
01:06  * fenn smacks kanzure's browser
01:06 < kanzure> no no
01:06 < kanzure> am wgetting
01:06 < kanzure> anyway, I've fixed
01:06 < fenn> you can't wget -i http://...
01:07 < kanzure> k, got it
01:07 < kanzure> 70 kbps
01:08 < fenn>  The attachment cannot be viewed as HTML. Download the attachment to view it in its original format.
01:08 < kanzure_> tis okay, am fixing
01:08 < fenn> one might wonder why they would offer to view it in the first place
01:08 < kanzure_> hm, still haven't gotten an email from zamzar
01:09 < kanzure_> hrm, I hear a band
01:09 < kanzure_> never question the google!
01:09 < fenn> sieg heil!
01:09 < kanzure_> translation?
01:10 < kanzure_> I'd do the translation myself, but my laptop is still having some difficulties
01:10 < fenn> look it up
01:10 < kanzure_> blah
01:10  * kanzure_ hits his machines
01:10 < bkero> Fix them
01:10 < kanzure_> Am working on it.
01:11 < fenn> Since Nazism argued that war was a way to determine the superior race and that Germans were that superior race, hailing war was to hail the struggle that would eliminate all others and establish, in a social Darwinist manner, the "New Order."
01:12 < bkero> Meh.  War isn't the way to determine the superior race.  Eugenics is.
01:12 < kanzure_> please stop.
01:13 < kanzure_> The transhumanists have enough problems as it is.
01:13 < bkero> Heh
01:13 < kanzure_> Half of them think they're going to exterminate the other half.
01:13 < kanzure_> The other half just sits there wondering WTF the other half is smoking.
01:13 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/transhumanism_def.html fights some of the eugenics bullshit.
01:13 < fenn> and the other other half publishes press releases
01:13 < kanzure_> "No, let me repeat: I do _not_ want to kill you. Thank you."
01:13 < kanzure_> heh
01:15 < fenn> i wonder if there's a way to get mplayer to pitch-shift the audio back to normal when playing video at 2x
01:20 < kanzure_> wonder why this conversion is taking so long.
01:20 < bkero> ?
01:20 < kanzure_> trying to convert pptx to ppt
01:21 < kanzure_> those presentations
01:21 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/repo/presentations/
01:21 < bkero> Which one?
01:21 < bkero> Wed3-... or Campbell...
01:21 < kanzure_> both
01:21 < bkero> OOo doesn't open them?
01:22 < kanzure_> right
01:23 < bkero> lol
01:23 < bkero> It crashes oo2.4
01:26 < kanzure_> xp_prg: could you save the files for us?
01:27 < kanzure_> since you were looking at them and all
01:27 < kanzure_> ppt would be ok, but not pptx
01:31 < kanzure_> yay I have the stupid files
01:32 < kanzure_> wtf
01:32 < kanzure_> the download links to 0 KB files
01:33 < kanzure_> argh
01:40 < kanzure_> Open XML File Format Converter ?
01:42 < bkero> wtf
02:07 < kanzure_> Hey red1_ 
02:07 -!- red1_ is now known as red1
02:08 < red1> sorry for the restart
02:11 < kanzure_> Are you on windows?
02:36 < kanzure> http://odf-converter.sf.net
02:47 < kanzure> http://katana.oooninja.com/w/odf-converter-integrator/download           odf-converter-integrator_0.1.5-2_i386.deb
02:47 < kanzure> http://katana.oooninja.com/f/software/odf-converter-integrator_0.1.5-2_i386.deb
02:49 < bkero> Hmm
03:47 < kanzure_> gene: Can you open pptx files?
03:47 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/presentations/ <-- Could you save these as ppt files, the older powerpoint versions?
03:47 < gene> no
03:47 < gene> I have open office not ewww... word
03:49 < gene> why would you want to open up such evil format?
03:50 < kanzure_> Okay.
03:50 < kanzure_> odp files now exist
03:50 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/repo/presentations/
03:50 < kanzure_> fenn, if you're interested enough, just be warned that the odp conversion sucks immensely
03:57 < kanzure> Bonus points for anybody who can make a proper conversion.
03:58 < gene> it has been said that every time you open up a pptx file, a penguin dies
04:02 < ybit> heh
04:03 < ybit> kanzure, woah. you are right. that is indeed a terrible conversion. maybe i can fix this tomorrow sometime
04:04 < kanzure_> so could I .. tomorrow though. :/
04:09 < willPow3r> did u get those files converted?
04:09 < kanzure_> not reallu
04:09 < kanzure_> really
04:10 < ybit> bkero, do you have a homepage or a page listing your projects?
04:11 < willPow3r> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/presentations <-- doesn't exist
04:12 < kanzure_> other link
04:12 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/repo/presentations/
04:12 < willPow3r> you need them in ppt right?
04:12 < kanzure_> yes please :)
04:12 < kanzure_> pre-2007 format
04:14 < willPow3r> you have 20 KBps upload?
04:16 < willPow3r> kanzure_, you're going to lose some functionality on these slides in a .ppt format rather than the .pptx
04:16 < kanzure_> I should have something better than 20 kbps up
04:16 < kanzure_> :/
04:17 < kanzure_> functionality loss is ok, but it should look good
04:17 < kanzure_> and not crap :(
04:17 < willPow3r> it looks good.
04:17 < willPow3r> you need all four files converted? or just the .pptx ones
04:18 < kanzure_> pptx
04:18 < willPow3r> whats your email?
04:19 < kanzure_> kanzure@gmail.com
04:20 < willPow3r> i'm getting about 22KBps d/load
04:25 < willPow3r> kanzure_, had to send as 2 emails due to attachment size exceeding 10 MB
04:25 < willPow3r> should be in your inbox shortly
04:26 < kanzure> yay
04:29 < kanzure> fenn, where's your ikiwiki link?
04:32 < ybit> btw, i haven't mentioned this, i have full access to a junkyard which has a roughly a 13 acres lot
04:33 < ybit> minus one "a"
04:35 < ybit> haven't quite figured out what to do with the materials... in about 5 years, most of cars will have been crushed for $
04:37 < willPow3r> you could do some drug deals there
04:37 < ybit> already did that, next? :)
04:38 < willPow3r> hide dead bodies, open illegal chop shop
04:38 < willPow3r> torture suspected terrorists
04:39 < ybit> hehe
04:39 < ybit> i'm sure the government has enough torture chambers for terrorists as it is
04:42 < willPow3r> the gov't doesn't torture
04:42 < willPow3r> ask them if you don't believe me
04:47 < ybit> heh, you first
04:48 < willPow3r> just sent an email to sarah palin's yahoo acct
04:48 < ybit> subject?
04:48  * ybit gets modafinil/provigil within the week! :)
04:48 < willPow3r> are you getting it for adhd?
04:48 < ybit> sure
04:48 < ybit> i dunno
04:49 < ybit> it's what i'm telling my parents it is for
04:49 < ybit> it does help with that though
04:49 < willPow3r> i've tried it
04:49 < ybit> me too
04:49 < willPow3r> you liked it?
04:49 < ybit> yep
04:49 < ybit> you?
04:49 < willPow3r> nope
04:49 < ybit> why?
04:49 < fenn> buh.. what iki link
04:49 < ybit> what do you like?
04:50 < willPow3r> vyvanse
04:50 < kanzure_> okay
04:50 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/repo/presentations/
04:50 < kanzure_> ppt links now
04:50 < kanzure_> willPow3r gets bonus points
04:50 < willPow3r> provigil was extremely expensive
04:50 < willPow3r> and not nearly as effective as stimulants
04:50 < ybit> yeah, i couldn't afford it until just recently
04:50 < willPow3r> at least for me
04:51 < willPow3r> i think it was like, $750 for 30 or some crazy amount
04:51 < ybit> i was a dumbass and bought some generic modafinil, but there's no way i can tell if that's what it actually is without access to proper lab equipment
04:52 < ybit> here it's $375 for a month's worth
04:52 < ybit> w/out insurance
04:52 < fenn> that's like, my rent
04:52 < fenn> i think that's more than most people spend on illegal drugs
04:52 < willPow3r> yeah. the price we pay for normal cognitive functionality
04:52 < ybit> so with insurance, it's about $40 for me
04:53 < kanzure_> I'm paying $12 a pill. 
04:53 < ybit> for modafinil?
04:53 < kanzure_> Adderall.
04:53 < ybit> ah
04:53 < kanzure_> just re: fenn's comment on his rent
04:53 < kanzure_> so I'm spending about $720/mo
04:53 < ybit> doc doesn't want me on those since he knows my drug history :|
04:53  * ybit should change docs
04:53 < willPow3r> why would you tell your doc your drug history??
04:54 < fenn> lol
04:54 < willPow3r> i consider my past history nothing more than self medication
04:54 < fenn> can't they get medical records anyway?
04:54 < willPow3r> my doc would think otherwise ;)
04:54 < ybit> i was depressed and not thinkng correctly
04:54 < willPow3r> fenn, not without your permission. confidentiality
04:54 < ybit> fenn: i was referring to un-prescribed drugs
04:55 < ybit> non* w/e
04:55 < fenn> proscribed drugs :)
04:55 < ybit> :)
04:56 < fenn> kanzure_: what would you say an average janitor makes per hour in austin?
04:56 < kanzure> no clue whatsoever
04:57 < ybit> my guess: $7.15
04:57 < ybit> or whatever min. wage is about to be
04:57 < kanzure> fenn, couldn't you get yourself going for a master's somewhere?
04:57 < kanzure> not that school is the best place for you of course
04:57 < ybit> surely you could get a grant for master's
04:57 < kanzure> but being a master's student forever might not be bad
04:57 < kanzure> oh wait.
04:58 < fenn> "40 hours/week @ 4.33 weeks per month" does anyone else see anything wrong with this equation?
04:58 < willPow3r> nope
04:59 < ybit> i do
05:00 < ybit> if it's not what your area of study, ~20hrs/week is too much imo
05:01 < fenn> i dont mind doing work, or earning crap pay.. it's the fact that it screws up the rest of my life for no particular reason just to make scheduling easier
05:01 < ybit> fenn: why haven't you continued onto graduate school?
05:02 < fenn> ybit: i've been waffling on that
05:02 < ybit> why so?
05:02 < fenn> sent a letter to gershenfeld, no response. i probably did something wrong
05:02 < kanzure_> waffling is a verb? 
05:02 < kanzure_> this makes me so happy.
05:02 < willPow3r> only if you take urban dictionary to be your grammatical standard
05:03 < fenn> urban dictionary is THE grammatical standard
05:03 < kanzure_> works for me.
05:03 < willPow3r> lol
05:03 < fenn> only thumbs up entries of course
05:04 < fenn> ybit: there's a lot of cool stuff going on at MIT media lab/cba that i could see myself doing.. the problem is weaseling my way into their culture enough to be noticed
05:06 < fenn> they must make their bubbles out of ultra strength dish soap
05:06 < ybit> fenn: you could try getting on with BU and then becoming friends with those at the media lab 
05:06 < ybit> heh
05:06 < kanzure_> that's what I was planning on doing
05:06 < kanzure_> BU, I mean
05:07 < bkero> ybit: What?
05:08 < ybit> i sent you a PM that explains whatever i was asking
05:08 < bkero> Ah
05:08 < ybit> just wanted to know what projects you had mentioned before since my logs are doomed
05:09 < ybit> i remember something about an electric bike
05:10 < bkero> ybit: I've done(and am still in the process of doing) an electric bike.  I've converted a 1985 MR2 to electric.  if I embelish a bit, I could say that I've built a plane(fiberglassed and fitted the panels to a Rutan Long-Ez), made biodiesel from algae.  Am in the processes of doing some brain->computer interfaces, um, more...
05:11 < fenn> bkero: i dont even know anyone who has any of those things in bloomington..
05:12  * fenn mopes
05:12 < bkero> Nonsense, there's probably an EAA chapter in bloomington
05:12 < bkero> Also the annual EAA meeting is IN indiana
05:12 < bkero> Also there's the largest collection of PowerPC computers i Bloomington
05:12 < fenn> i've seen paragliders by the highway
05:13 < fenn> and the EAA meeting is in oshkosh, WI
05:13 < bkero> Yea
05:13 < bkero> Wait, which EAA?
05:13 < bkero> I'm a member of both. :)
05:13 < ybit> nothing too signficant but related to diy: http://www.eaa.org/news/2008/2008-09-30_final_comments.asp
05:13 < bkero> The Electric Auto Association, and the Experimental Aircraft Association
05:14 < fenn> aw wtf were they thinking "electric auto association"
05:15 < bkero> Why not?
05:15 < fenn> because they both involve wingnuts building exotic vehicles?
05:16  * bkero must be a spuuer ultra wingnut.
05:16 < bkero> No, the best thing about oshkosh is that when people go there they HAVE to be good pilots.
05:16 < bkero> If they're drunk they'd crash before they got there.
05:16 < bkero> One year I hope to go. :)
05:16 < ybit> no eaaev chapters in my state, hmm... that should be changed
05:17 < bkero> Build an EV
05:17 < fenn> i suppose now we need an "electric airplane association" just to piss everyone off
05:17 < bkero> They're cheap(ish) and easy.
05:17 < bkero> Bikes are really cheap :)
05:17 < bkero> lol
05:17 < bkero> Electric airplanes don't work very well.  Batteries don't provide enough power density.
05:17 < bkero> Believe me, I've seen attempts.
05:18 < ybit> that would be fun
05:18 < fenn> aluminum air batteries might work
05:18 < ybit> (building an ev)
05:18 < ybit> anyone care for brown university?
05:18 < fenn> or if the EESTOR ever makes it to reality-land
05:19 < bkero> I'd go with a sodium air battery personally
05:19 < ybit> i'm highly considering attending for grad
05:19 < bkero> Actually, ultra caps would be great for a takeoff
05:19 < bkero> EESTOR?
05:19 < ybit> http://gradschool.brown.edu/go/centers
05:19 < fenn> you dont know about EESTOR?
05:20 < ybit> not the traditional grading system either, thankfully
05:20 < fenn> super purity barium titanate high voltage cap.. 35kV, and energy storage goes as the square of the voltage so you get (supposedly) 52kWh out of a 100lb capacitor the size of a shoebox
05:21 < bkero> What's the disipation rate on that though?
05:21 < fenn> = approximately a tankful of gas
05:21 < fenn> charges as fast as you can pump current into it
05:22 < bkero> Yes, I know
05:22 < fenn> discharges just as fast :\
05:22 < bkero> hahahaa
05:22 < bkero> Yea, that's the problem with caps.
05:22 < fenn> dont stick your tongue on the terminals
05:22 < fenn> they engineered it so it won't explode or anything if shorted
05:22 < bkero> Heh
05:23 < fenn> rather vague on the details though
05:23 < bkero> I've yet to find a use for ultra caps, besides one.
05:23 < bkero> They would be fucking MEAN in a dragster.
05:23 < bkero> There's an electric vehicle division in the NHRA
05:23 < fenn> um, 52kWh in 100lbs is pretty useful
05:24 < bkero> For what?
05:24 < fenn> even if it's at a silly voltage
05:24 < fenn> for driving your car cross-country without refueling...
05:24 < fenn> um, mega robots with lazers
05:24 < fenn> yeah
05:25 < bkero> uh
05:25 < fenn> it can be divided into smaller chunks too
05:25 < bkero> Remember the problem with disipation?
05:25 < fenn> no, what problem?
05:25 < fenn> self discharge?
05:25 < bkero> Yes
05:25 < fenn> apparently it's no big deal
05:25 < fenn> about the same as lead acid
05:26 < bkero> Really?  I've heard them say 'no big deal', but when I confront them about it, they five me a figure in single digits of minutes for most charges
05:26 < kanzure> willPow3r fails. openoffice doesn't open those ppt files.
05:27 < willPow3r> i converted them w/ office 2007
05:27 < willPow3r> i don't fail, OOo does
05:28 < bkero> Microsoft fails for broken shitty standards.
05:28 < bkero> :s/standards/formats/
05:28 < willPow3r> they open fine in my OOo
05:29 < fenn> WP says "A self-discharge rate of 0.1% per month"
05:29 < fenn> this seems highly unlikely
05:30 < bkero> Fuck
05:30 < bkero> Woot has my TV
05:30 < bkero> For $575
06:01 < ybit> $s/standards/formats/g  ..no? :) [bkero]
06:02 < ybit> :$
06:02 < kanzure> ?
06:02 < ybit> ...right..
06:02 < ybit> was attempting to correct bkero, but failed due to a missing colon sign :)
06:02 < bkero> I use :1,$s/a/b/g
06:03 < ybit> that works
06:04 < ybit> kanzure, who is marayad on the diybio mailing list?
06:04 < kanzure> maradydd on irc.
06:05 < kanzure> "Meredith L. Patterson" <clonearmy@gmail.com>
06:05 < kanzure> apparently she's married to a guy that gave a couch to bram cohen.
06:05 < kanzure> by 'gave' as in 'gave a place to sleep'
06:06 < kanzure> dormbuddies
06:06 < kanzure> dorm-mates?
06:08 < kanzure> "What are the top manufacturing techniques for making physical objects now in practice?"
06:08 < kanzure> "What are the top techniques in theory?"
06:08 < kanzure> Nathan asks such impossible questions :/
06:08 < kanzure> any ideas on how one would go about answering those questions
06:09 < kanzure> what does 'top' mean? what most people use? because usually what people actually use sucks or is behind the times
06:09 < ybit> gn
06:10 < kanzure> ?
06:10 < kanzure> ybit: who are you talking to?
06:11 < fenn> contrary to popular belief, there is such a thing as a stupid question
06:12 < kanzure> but he wasn't talking to me really
06:12 < kanzure> I guess he did say one thing to me
06:12 < kanzure> unless I accidentally blocked bkero or something
06:12 < kanzure> am I missing messages?
06:12 < fenn> re "What are the top manufacturing techniques"
06:12 < kanzure> djklkajsdl;jkfasdjkl;fadl;jka
06:12 < kanzure> yes of course
06:13 < fenn> gn = good night, just letting us know he went to bed
06:13 < kanzure> I know the translation.
06:24 < willPow3r_> i dont see a problem with the question
06:24 < willPow3r_> about top manufacturing techniques
06:24 < willPow3r_> its kind of a general question
06:24 < willPow3r_> and has a lot to do with efficiency
06:25 < kanzure_> Eh?
06:25 < kanzure_> Manufacturing techniques, though, means what?
06:25 < kanzure_> The conversion of bits and bytes into other materials?
06:25 < kanzure_> Usually this is through electromechanical interfaces, if that's what he means.
06:25  * kanzure_ is being rather stubborn for some reason. Probably needs sleep.
06:26 < willPow3r_> to me it sounds more like a question about process implementation
06:26 < kanzure_> In what sense?
06:27 < willPow3r_> like, "what is the most efficient method of producing a car in an assembly line"
06:28 < bkero> Top manufacturing techniques?
06:28 < bkero> kanzure_: Did you block me?
06:28 < kanzure_> No.
06:29 < kanzure_> Was just wondering if ybot was talking with you and I wasn't seeing it.
06:29 < bkero> I think extrusion and molding are the top manufacturing techniques. :P
06:29 < willPow3r_> yes, but you need to talk about the top techniques of extrusion and molding.
06:30 < willPow3r_> if there's more than one way to do it, then there is a 'top' method
06:30 < bkero> Extrusion is like taking a big shit, and molding is basically pissing in a cast, freezing the piss, and cracking the cast in half.
06:30 < bkero> Then talk about casts versus plugs
06:33 < fenn> injection molding/die casting is sorta halfway between the two
06:34 < fenn> honestly i think it's a stupid question
06:35 < fenn> you can't make extrusion dies without both casting and machining
06:35 < fenn> i still havent gotten the email though
06:36 < kanzure_> private email
06:38 < fenn> personally i think hand scraping is the top manufacturing technique :)
06:39 < fenn> all the finest precision tools and instruments are made that way
06:39 < fenn> or maybe lapping
06:39 < fenn> same thing really
06:40 < fenn> single crystal growth is pretty 'top dog' as well
06:41 < fenn> ion beam welding/machining
06:45 < fenn> atom holography, super dense matter created by relativistic shock waves from antimatter explosions
07:20 < willPow3r_> fenn, can you think of anything less trivial?
07:25 < faceface> can anyone help me get at the streams of an RTSP server? aparently the linux RTSPlive modules don't support authentication, but the 'real' ones do
07:26 < faceface> so I can play the stream in real (after authenticating) but not save it, else I fail to play it with mplayer
07:26 < willPow3r_> yuck, real
07:26 < faceface> yeah
07:26 < faceface> its recordings of a conference I attended 
07:26 < willPow3r_> mplayerplug-in won't play it?
07:26 < faceface> they give me '25 hours to view lectures at my leasure' - bastards
07:27 < willPow3r_> lol
07:27 < willPow3r_> whats the link
07:27 < faceface> willPow3r_, I didn't check that specifically. I figure if mplayer can't, mplayerplug-in wont
07:27 < faceface> its an issue of RTSP authentication
07:27 < faceface> trying xvidcap, but its sub optimal
07:28 < faceface> one moment
07:28 < willPow3r_> pastebin the webpage source
07:28 < faceface> OK
07:29 < faceface> wtf? Ctrl-U = This page uses frames, but your browser doesn't support them
07:29 < faceface> The stream is here anyway http://leadingstrand.cshl.edu/2008/INFOUK/1.1.ram 
07:32 < faceface> willPow3r_ if you have real, you should be able to view it. Seems nothing else free works that I can find
07:33 < willPow3r_> have you tried VLC?
07:33 < faceface> there was a nice command line thing that I found to capture the ouptut of any program ... i.e. you invoked "$ grabber super-secure-thing" and the 'grabber' app would suck the video card to capture all output
07:33 < faceface> yes
07:34 < faceface> willPow3r_, the #videolan people told me that "the RTSPlive modules don't support authentication"
07:34 < willPow3r_> hmm
07:34 < willPow3r_> you're obviously on linux, right?
07:34 < faceface> yea
07:36 < faceface> just playing with this http://xvidcap.sourceforge.net/ to see if I can do this on an ignored desktop for example
07:36 < faceface> seems like -- if the screen saver comes on, thats what you capture!
07:37 < willPow3r_> so everything out of the video card
07:37 < willPow3r_> pretty sweet
07:37 < faceface> just a frame of your desktop
07:37 < faceface> its nice, but I don't actually want to watch all the lectures again, just cap them
07:37 < faceface> especially not at 1:1 speed
07:41 < willPow3r_> yea
07:46 < willPow3r> http://www.videolan.org/doc/videolan-howto/en/ch03.html
07:47 < faceface> willPow3r, you got that working?
07:48 < faceface> http://discussion.forum.nokia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=89195
07:50 < faceface> when I try to put username:password into the url, I get cannot handle DESCRIBE response: RTSP/1.0 404 Not Found
07:50 < faceface> (mplayer this is)
07:51 < faceface> when I pass -user and -passwd I get librtsp: server responds: 'RTSP/1.0 401 Unauthorized'
08:08  * faceface starts to but live555
08:23 < faceface> lets see... http://lists.live555.com/pipermail/live-devel/2008-October/009582.html
08:32 < willPow3r> faceface, whats the url again?
08:33 < faceface> me pains
08:33 < faceface> rtsp://meetstream.cshl.edu:554/Secure/INFOUK/1.rm
08:34 < faceface> I used a tool years ago that would run an application and capture its audio / video output to file
08:34 < faceface> I forget the name thouhg
08:34 < faceface> though
08:34 < faceface> all I can find with google are screencasting tools
08:35 < willPow3r> but because it requires authentication mplayer/xine wont work
08:35 < faceface> yes
08:35 < faceface> no
08:36 < faceface> I mean, I can install real, and then run real through this 'grabber', and then go about my day
08:36 < faceface> otherwise I need to find a box that no one will touch and use xvidcap (again with real)
08:37 < faceface> willPow3r, because of the authentication I need to run the 'authentic' real software, but then I can still capture the video ...
08:37 < faceface> just looking for a convenient way to do that...
08:37 < willPow3r> right
08:37 < faceface> Like I said, a while back I had a solution that was "$ grabber 'real rtsp://some.ram'"
08:38 < faceface> worked nicely
08:39 < faceface> else people just say 'use mplayer;
08:39 < willPow3r> if it were only that easy
08:40 < faceface> In theory it should be, if the authentication protocol was supported by live555 (hence the email)
08:41 < faceface> or else its a solution for windows...
08:43 < willPow3r> http://www.live555.com/mplayer
08:43 < faceface> yup
08:43 < willPow3r> read the section on streaming access-controlled rtsp
08:43 < willPow3r> you already did?
08:44 < faceface> yeah
08:44 < faceface> I passed those options, and the error message changes when you get your user/pass correct, but no joy
08:44 < faceface> see the post
08:44 < faceface> http://lists.live555.com/pipermail/live-devel/2008-October/009582.html
08:47 < willPow3r> what version of mplayer are you using?
08:47 < faceface> at home I tried the svn version
08:47 < faceface> yesterday
08:48 < willPow3r> hmm
08:49 < faceface> Just frantically googling for the app ...
09:23 < willPow3r> faceface, realrekord?
09:24 < faceface> willPow3r, looks promising
09:40 < willPow3r> faceface, the video file is stored in a temp folder when using the helix player
09:40 < willPow3r> just copy that file after its fully loaded to another location from the temp
09:40 < faceface> willPow3r, no way?!?!?
09:41 < willPow3r> on vista, can't imagine linux version would be any different
09:41 < faceface> realrekord was not compiling + I think its only for audio..
09:43 < faceface> given that helix has source code available, it seems strange that authentication cannot be done properly by live555
09:44 < faceface> I hope this works... just intalling helix
09:45 < willPow3r> its not an authentication issue
09:46 < willPow3r> Received DESCRIBE response: RTSP/1.0 200 OK
09:46 < willPow3r> that is the authentication successful line
09:47 < willPow3r> k, i see the problem
09:47 < willPow3r> Unable to create receiver for "video/X-PN-REALVIDEO" subsession: RTP
09:47 < willPow3r> payload format unknown or not supported
09:48 < faceface> any clue what that is?
09:49 < willPow3r> there's a new extremely proprietary audio/video format being used by real that can't yet be converted
09:49 < faceface> I see
09:49 < willPow3r> can you view the video at all?
09:50 < faceface> yes, it plays in real (once I log in)
09:50 < willPow3r> what version?
09:50 < faceface> 11.0.1.1056 (GOLD)
09:51 < faceface> will it download while paused?
09:51 < willPow3r> the new format came out a month ago
09:51 < willPow3r> it should, yeah
09:52 < faceface> trying one of the 'free' videos now (so as not to eat into my 25 hours)
09:52 < faceface> where is the file downloaded? (on vista)
09:52 < willPow3r> C:\Users\[user]\AppData\Roaming\Real\RealPlayer\Temp
09:53 < willPow3r> its the .ivr file
09:53 < faceface> find ./ -name "*.ivr" ... nothing (under the Real install dir)
09:54 < faceface> willPow3r, wait now... you say that the .ivr is not convertable?
09:54 < willPow3r> i'm checking on that right now
09:54 < faceface> even if I can play it 'at my leasure' using helix, that would be better
09:56 < willPow3r> well
09:56 < willPow3r> even realplayer can't play it.
09:56 < willPow3r> thats what i mean by "extremely proprietary"
09:56 < faceface> oh... thats bad... must be DRMed
09:58 < willPow3r> how many lectures are there?
10:01 < faceface> about 25 ;-)
10:01 < faceface> looks like I'm going to have to cap them
10:03 < faceface> actually 50! I'll ball at them about the 25 hour limit, but I don't think I can get away with asking for more than another 24
10:03 < nsh> limit what?
10:03 < faceface> I'm going through lsof to track down the tempoary file - I found realplay.  9304   dbolser   12u      REG      253,0  86401793   4178073 /tmp/hx_tmpsb.dat (deleted)
10:03 < faceface> nsh, limity silly idits
10:03  * nsh has no context
10:03 < faceface> I payed like several hundred dollars to attend a conf that was recorded
10:04 < nsh> mmhmm
10:04 < faceface> they have put up recordings DRM access restricted 25 hours viewing time per person
10:04 < nsh> uh
10:04 < nsh> that's retarded
10:04 < faceface> also hard to rip!
10:04 < faceface> hence my struggle against 'the man'
10:04 < nsh> there needs to be a antihoarding internet taskforce
10:04 < faceface> they haven't thought it through, but I don't have time to argue
10:04 < nsh> that responds to gregarious infostingery
10:04 < faceface> I just want to cap them and get them on youtube
10:04 < willPow3r> its not DRM, because the files can be burned to cd then ripped
10:05 < willPow3r> but you have to purchase the full version of real
10:05 < willPow3r> or download it illegally
10:05 < faceface> crazed
10:05 < faceface> how do I get at /tmp/hx_tmpsb.dat (deleted)
10:06 < willPow3r> you have to copy the file while the player is open
10:06 < willPow3r> and playing the file
10:06 < faceface> willPow3r, it is 
10:06 < faceface> I recon they delete the file but keep it locked
10:06 < faceface> you can do this, for example if you have  a perl script writing to some.file, half way through the run you can rename / move some.file and perl don't care
10:07 < faceface> it just keeps on writing to the node
10:07 < faceface> similarly if its deleted, ls won't show it up, but its there
10:08 < faceface> that is the only file in "lsof | grep real" that hits /tmp
10:08 < faceface> whats more is it is growing in size
10:08 < willPow3r> right
10:08 < faceface> (still (paused) streaming one of the freebies)
10:08 < willPow3r> it should do that until the whole clip is cached
10:08 < faceface> http://leadingstrand.cshl.edu/FAM.html
10:09 < faceface> ls /tmp/hx_tmpsb.dat -> ls: /tmp/hx_tmpsb.dat: No such file or directory
10:09 < willPow3r> i hope you're using sudo
10:09 < faceface> yup
10:09 < faceface> on the ls command or in general?
10:09 < faceface> realplay.  9304   dbolser   12u      REG      253,0 256153852   4178073 /tmp/hx_tmpsb.dat (deleted)
10:09 < willPow3r> on ls
10:10 < faceface> which number is hte inode?
10:10 < faceface> I figure I can link it ?
10:10 < faceface> sudo ls /tmp/hx_tmpsb.dat -> No such file or directory
10:10  * faceface braves ##linux again
10:11 < willPow3r> good luck
10:14 < faceface> sleuthkit
10:17 < willPow3r> hmm?
10:17 < faceface> seems I can get at the 'deleted' file 
10:18 < faceface> sneeky of them to do that!
10:18 < faceface> now I wonder if the next instance of real uses a different file
10:18 < willPow3r> heh, yeah it is
10:19 < willPow3r> you're in luck that the file is in .dat format
10:19  * faceface wonders if the extension lies
10:19 < faceface> we won't know until we can poke it
10:27 < faceface> OK, its actually amazingly easy to get the file :D
10:27 < faceface> http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/aix/library/au-lsof.html
10:28 < faceface> Section "Recovering a deleted file"
10:28 < faceface> now I have a 'data' file :(
10:28 < willPow3r> k, so you saved the file
10:28 < faceface> yeah
10:29 < faceface> According to Real its an 'unknown file format'
10:29 < willPow3r> fuck real
10:29 < willPow3r> try it with mplayer
10:29 < faceface> mplayer balks
10:30 < faceface> LAVF_check: no clue about this gibberish!
10:30 < faceface> http://pastebin.com/d41390f37
10:33 < willPow3r> lol
10:37 < faceface> yeah...
10:37 < faceface> pain...
10:38 < faceface> I'll cap 2 a day... one during lunch and one when I go home
10:38 < faceface> I don't have a spare box to cap them on
10:40 < faceface> hopefully... must remember to disable screensaver!
10:40 < willPow3r> heh
12:13 < kanzure> is RSTP MMS?
12:22 -!- willPower__ is now known as willPow3r
12:27 -!- red1_ is now known as red1
16:47 < kanzure___> One more time. An artifact has a child element called 'subfunction'. Each subfunction element has two properties, input and output artifacts. Each subfunction element has a child 'flow' element that has two properties, input and output flow. What I think is going on is that each 'subfunction' is a cross-section of the overall graph of the overall product. So methinks the inputartifact is supposed to be graphed, followed by the input flow
16:49 < nsh> what are you talking about?
16:52 < kanzure___> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/prettyrepo.zip the format of the silly XML files.
16:52 < kanzure___> it's not easy to figure out what it's meaning to say.
16:59 < nsh> repo of what?
17:02 < kanzure___> http://graphml.graphdrawing.org/
17:02 < kanzure___> repo of parts
17:04 < kanzure___> I feel ashamed to ask this, but does anybody recall which of the graphviz apps I want to build dia files? The graph visualization stuffs.
17:04 < kanzure___> was it 'dotty' ? or 'dot' ? 'lefty' also was in there somewhere once upon a time
17:05 < kanzure___> http://www.trustlet.org/wiki/DOT_format hrm
17:06 < fenn> you can try all of them and see which you like best
17:07 < fenn> they all take the same input, just a different arrangement algorithm
17:13 < xp_prg2> hi all!
17:14 < kanzure___> Hello.
17:18 < bkero> Firefox is still rocking with 190 tabs :)
17:19 < xp_prg2> good job bkero!
17:19 < bkero> One of which is http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1593271905 :(
17:31 < bkero> kanzure___: What do you think of agalmics?
17:34 < kanzure___> the Niven essay?
17:34 < bkero> Yes
17:34 < kanzure___> Or in general?
17:34 < bkero> Well, I wasn't looking for a critique of the essay, more of your opinions on the theory.
17:34 -!- xp_prg2 is now known as xp_prg
17:34 < kanzure___> Hrm. I'll have to review it to give it a good overview, actually
17:35 < kanzure___> It's been a while :)
17:35 < bkero> http://www.openverse.com/~dtinker/agalmics.html
19:43  * kanzure___ smirks
19:44 < kanzure___> hrm, this is taking longer than I was hoping :)
19:49 < kanzure___> ah, it's getting stuck at iroomba
19:54  * procto is in sf
19:55 < kanzure___> procto: hit up maradydd
19:55 < kanzure___> actually
19:55 < kanzure___> crap
19:56 < kanzure___> big list of people to hit up :)
19:56 < procto> haha
19:56 < kanzure___> how long?
19:56 < procto> someone said something to me, but it was lost in the buffer
19:56 < procto> before you, that is
19:59 < kanzure___> http://www.shareddesign.org/
19:59 < kanzure___> fenn^
20:08 < kanzure___> for bonus points I forwarded the emails to openmanufacturing
20:09 < kanzure___> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/repo/CFGs/ <--- PNGs :)
20:11 < xp_prg> hi again :>
20:12 < kanzure___> xp_prg: http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/repo/CFGs/ just got done generating these
20:12 < kanzure___> http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/ forwarded an email here re: http://shareddesign.org/
20:12  * kanzure___ has to run :(
20:12 < xp_prg> wow what is that?
20:23 < procto> seasteading conference tomorrow, woo
20:53 < xp_prg> cool procto!
20:56 < fenn> kanzure___: dot is so icky
21:02 < fenn> it doesnt help that the data is fubared though
21:02 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/pub/irc/camera.png
21:03 < fenn> neato gives a much better idea of what is actually going on
21:03 < fenn> even if you cant read all the labels
21:03 < fenn> i guess it wasnt designed with degenerate graphs in mind
21:08 < fenn> maybe you could use colors for the different flow types
21:21 < fenn> fdp is not too bad either
21:34 < fenn> gawd this is Open Source Initiative all over again: "Shared designs work best in areas where needs are diverse and pressing and where there is a relatively small opportunity for profit"
21:36 < fenn> i want no less than complete world domination
21:37 < fenn> not "you can share in your piddling little niche, but mess with our market and we'll kill you all"
21:55 < xp_prg> fenn I don't understand the dot stuff he has generated, what is it, I am without a clue
21:56 < fenn> some lame attempt at describing the functionality of each piece of a product like a camera or a pair of pliers
21:56 < xp_prg> fenn no, kanzure dots
21:56 < fenn> the dots are just a graphical representation of the functionality
21:56 < xp_prg> can you please explain one to me?
21:57 < fenn> dot is a graphing program
21:57 < fenn> ok 1.dot is the one i've been looking at
21:57 < xp_prg> ok explain it to me then :>
21:58 < fenn> in the upper left you see "button" with {human energy, mechanical, solid} arrows going to it
21:58 < fenn> because it takes a human to push on it
21:58 < xp_prg> oh ok
21:59 < fenn> and apparently that button pushes on the "upper lever spring"
21:59 < fenn> or something like that
21:59 < xp_prg> how does this help me do my project?
21:59 < fenn> how should i know?
21:59 < xp_prg> why has he generated these dot files?
22:00 < xp_prg> why is the sky blue?
22:00 < fenn> light scatters at a different angle depending on wavelength
22:00 < xp_prg> right
22:01 < fenn> i think he made the diagrams so people could understand what's in the database better than digging through raw XML
22:02 < xp_prg> what database?
22:04 < xp_prg> fenn?
22:04 < fenn> the automated design lab repo
22:04 < xp_prg> so this has nothing to do with biobricks?
22:04 < fenn> do i have to drip feed you?
22:05 < xp_prg> ya :(
22:26 < kanzure> fenn: re: shareddesigns.org. Jon emailed Michel sometime yesterday I guess. I picked up a magazine my dad gave me today .. in the back there's this lengthy article about the open source prosthetics project people, third word begins Jon's name. 
22:26 < kanzure> freaky.
22:27 < fenn> what magazine?
22:28 < kanzure> apparently SciAm.
22:29 < xp_prg> I wish they would make an opensource electrical car :>
22:29 < kanzure> http://oscar.com/
22:29  * fenn yawns
22:29 < xp_prg> is that a joke?
22:30 < fenn> no just a bad url
22:30 < fenn> http://www.theoscarproject.org/
22:31 < fenn> the latest design is actually pretty good
22:31 < xp_prg> is it electrical?
22:31 < fenn> it needs a fairing and brake lights though
22:31 < fenn> yes it's electric
22:32 < fenn> why would anyone design a direct drive gasoline car?
22:32 < xp_prg> cuz they are stupid
22:33 < fenn> i cant believe they still havent made a prototype
22:33 < fenn> at least a scale model or something
22:33 < kanzure> wtf
22:33 < kanzure> they don't actually have anything?
22:33 < fenn> these sorts of projects seem to mostly attract "design" students :(
22:33 < xp_prg> what about the electrical engine is that opensourced as well?
22:33 < fenn> no
22:34 < xp_prg> lame
22:34 < fenn> they dont even have any engineering docs up yet
22:34 < xp_prg> and it has been 8 years?
22:35 < fenn> yeah
22:36 < fenn> if only we could harness the power of all that mouse clicking
22:36 < fenn> each mouse click uselessly dissipates 0.1 joules of mechanical energy
22:37 < xp_prg> heh
22:37 < fenn> with my new patent pending Open Source mouse button generator kit, you can start saving the planet today!
22:37 < kanzure> *click*
22:37  * xp_prg hugs fen
22:37 < fenn> energy accumulated to date: 0.1J
22:41 < kanzure> re: melamine in the diybio mailing list, Wikipedia tells me that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface_Enhanced_Raman_Spectroscopy might be a good way to detect melamine, but I'm not sure about the actual physical setups of SERS equipment - does it follow the typical "use a CD and a cereal box, presto: instant spectroscopy" ?
22:41 < kanzure> absorption spectra, at least
22:42 < fenn> melamine?
22:42 < fenn> is that some lipofuscin-y chemical?
22:43 < fenn> oh the dog food thing
22:43 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melamine  ,3,5-Triazine-2,4,6-triamine
22:43 < kanzure> 1,3,5 I mean
22:44 < fenn> Melamine is combined with formaldehyde to produce melamine resin, a very durable thermosetting plastic
22:44 < kanzure> hm
22:44 < fenn> part of why i have a particle-board-free house
22:46 < fenn> raman spectroscopy is pretty cool
22:47 < kanzure_> so a diybio.org person wants to do some biological method of detecting melamine
22:47 < kanzure_> and he needs it fast apparently :p
22:47 < kanzure_> but I don't think that's a really good way to do this
22:47 < kanzure_> unless there's some miracle bacteria already doing melamine detection
22:48 < kanzure_> I guess you'd check reactome or something to see if melamine fits into any of the known biochemical cascading catabolic networks
22:48 < kanzure_> anyway, CD + cereal box + light source might be more appropriate for easy detection of melamine
22:48 < fenn> you could breed an aptamer maybe
22:48 < kanzure_> true that, I can imagine doing many experimental designs
22:49 < kanzure_> how much time would you want to spend making up new experiments and directed evolution cycles to get this though?
22:49 < fenn> simple diffraction spectrometer probably isnt discriminatory enough..
22:50  * kanzure_ would have to see some plots
22:50 < fenn> i mean you're probably doing absorption spectroscopy which often gets blurred together, especially with many different chemicals in the mix
22:50 < kanzure_> if there's something really close to melamine that's really important to have, then yeah, that would suck
22:55 < fenn> Raman won the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1930 for this discovery accomplished using sunlight, a narrow band photographic filter to create monochromatic light and a "crossed" filter to block this monochromatic light. He found that light of changed frequency passed through the "crossed" filter.
22:55 < kanzure_> :)
22:55 < fenn> monochromatic light is easy to come by now with led's, so what's a crossed filter? just two polarizers 90 degrees apart?
22:56 < kanzure_> surely he got the prize for a paper?
22:56 < fenn> science literature used to be a lot more straightforward :(
22:57 < fenn> you said what you did, then what you saw, then you said what you think happened
22:57 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandrasekhara_Venkata_Raman#Raman.27s_Scientific_Publications_.28A_select_list.29
22:57 < bkero> Sweeeeet
22:57 < bkero> Just ordered a laptop
22:57 < fenn> duuude
22:57 < bkero> Duude is perfectly right
22:57 < fenn> no wai
22:57 < bkero> It's a dell
22:57 < kanzure>  "The Diffraction of Light by High Frequency Sound Waves: Part I", Proc. Indian Acad. Sci., 1935 (with N. S. Nagendra Nath)
22:57 < kanzure> wtf
22:57 < fenn> a dell? i have a dell too!
22:58 < bkero> I hate dells
22:58 < bkero> This is a mini inspiron 9
22:58 < bkero> Besides the keyboard and 4 cell battery it's excellent.
22:58 < kanzure> Huh. No Raman paper. wtf?
22:58 < bkero> $409 laptop for an atom, 1gb ram, 16gb hard drive, 8.9" 1024x600 screen.  $380
22:59 < bkero> 7% student discount
22:59 < fenn> i wonder if they will ever start selling mass-market laptops with ARM processors
23:00 < bkero> I hope every day that they will.
23:00 < bkero> But as of yet I've seen very little
23:00 < kanzure> I wish Wikipedia would stop bullshitting me and just give me the original references to the original works
23:00 < bkero> If they do, it'll be here
23:00 < bkero> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_netbooks
23:01 < xp_prg> wow laptops are coming down in price!
23:02 < kanzure> Hahahah.
23:02 < kanzure> Yay nature.
23:02 < fenn> gah what's with putting important data in background colors
23:02 < fenn> like i dont know how to read or something?
23:03  * fenn fires up the pig so he can see colors
23:04 < kanzure> What the hell? Why don't I have the 1928 article?
23:04 < kanzure> I Have "A New type of *" (everything else) except Raman's paper.
23:06 < fenn> you have Proc. Indian Acad. Sci. from 1935?
23:06 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/Raman_spectroscopy_1928.pdf
23:06 < fenn> wow a real paper
23:07 < fenn> i wonder if any academics realize what they are taking for granted
23:07 < kanzure> what do you mean?
23:08 < fenn> the fact that they can just look up any scientific paper and see how it was done
23:10 < elias`> I'm thinking of getting thinkpad x40 for about ?100 (maybe +?40 if I need to replace battery)
23:11 < elias`> it's +4cm and +5cm in width/height compared to typical netbooks, but otherwise maybe somewhat similar
23:14 < fenn> that sounds rather inexpensive
23:18  * nsh decides at least 5 billion people need to die
23:19 < nsh> or at least, not reproduce
23:19 < nsh> i've decided the voluntary human extinction movement
23:19 < nsh> is for pussies
23:20 < nsh> mandatory human extinction is where it's at
23:20 < fenn> i think we already do that
23:20 < kanzure_> bad day at the office?
23:21 < nsh> hm
23:22 < nsh> [[[
23:22 < nsh> "The fate of our civilization, and maybe our species," says Ehrlich, "may be determined by the next five generations. So I don't really give a shit what's happening to our genetic evolution." The global climate is changing too violently for DNA to respond by fiddling around with heat regulation and hair thickness; forests everywhere are being clear-cut too quickly for their inhabitants to adjust, and so food chains are coming undone; 
23:22 < nsh> the collapse of global fisheries has been identified as an imminent calamity; and a nuclear disaster would constitute a catastrophe many orders of magnitude larger than what nature could readily absorb. If any of these nightmare scenarios comes to pass, Ehrlich fears, evolution will be unable to help us. It may be operating faster than we thought, but it's not that fast. Problems like smog and acid rain seem almost quaint, and even to be longed for.
23:22 < nsh> ]]] --http://www.seedmagazine.com/news/2008/10/how_we_evolve_1.php
23:22 < kanzure_> yawn.
23:22 < kanzure_> nsh: what gives
23:23 < kanzure_> we commonly deal with more higher-level concepts in here, such as ways to mutate the self and so on so as to avoid being dependent on that shit not happening, whatever
23:23 < kanzure_> lots of "etc" in there.
23:23  * nsh smiles plastically
23:23 < fenn> bleh, ehrlich
23:23 < fenn> the eternal pessimist
23:24 < nsh> pessimism and realism are often indistinguishable
23:24 < fenn> except ehrlich is often wrong
23:25 < fenn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon-Ehrlich_wager
23:25  * nsh nods
23:26 < nsh> there have always been people claiming the world is ending
23:26 < kanzure_> what does it mean for a world to end
23:27 < nsh> ask the dinosaurs
23:27 < kanzure_> the planet is still here
23:27 < nsh> it's a figurative expression 
23:28 < nsh> when you cease, the world ceases
23:28 < nsh> out here is just a heuristic projection
23:29 < fenn> "For some reason he could never comprehend, people were inclined to believe the very worst about anything and everything;"
23:29 < fenn> i'd wager it's due to poor diet
23:30 < fenn> not enough raw dark green leafy vegetables, too much cooked grains and starch
23:33  * nsh smiles
23:36 < kanzure_> nsh: Too much assumption of identity.
23:36 < kanzure_> You're poisoning the caches.
23:36 < kanzure_> For the record, I'd rather not kill.
23:38 < kanzure_> "The only limit to my freedom is the inevitable closure of the galaxies, as inevitable as your own last breath. And yet there remains time to create, to create and escape."
23:41 < nsh> hmm
23:42 < fenn> i want imaging spectrometer glasses 
23:43 < kanzure_> Wouldn't you be squinting all the time? :)