--- Day changed Wed Oct 15 2008
00:09 < willPow3r> and no i'm not racist.
00:26 < ybit> kanzure, is the cad.py file located http://fab.cba.mit.edu/about/fab/ in fabuntu?
00:27 < ybit> you do have fabuntu right?
00:27 < kanzure> http://fabuntu.org/downloads/
00:27 < kanzure> No, I don't have fabuntu. /me fetches it.
00:28 < fenn> it's rather small @277mb
00:29 < ybit> i'll grab it tomorrow while i'm on a stable comp.
00:29 < fenn> they don't really explain what it is, eh?
00:30 < kanzure> CBA/fablab on some site somewhere explains it a bit
00:30 < kanzure> something about a handful of extra scripts for using the equipment
00:30 < ybit> okay, yeah, cad.py is included
00:34 < ybit> btw, i'm sure most of you have seen this page: http://fab.cba.mit.edu/content/tools/
00:34 < ybit> it still makes me drool
00:34  * fenn is unimpressed
00:35 < kanzure> ybit: wrong link.
00:36 < kanzure> http://fab.cba.mit.edu/about/fab/inv.html
00:41 < fenn> what the fuck: 3M #1126 copper tape with conductive adhesive 6"x36 yds @$236.44/roll
00:42 < willPow3r> http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/web/LenovoPortal/en_US/catalog.workflow:expandcategory?current-catalog-id=12F0696583E04D86B9B79B0FEC01C087&current-category-id=02695ADDF94544E5A11D24AEBC064493&tab=1#tab-container-3
00:42 < fenn> nevermind, i guess that is a lot of tape
00:42 < kanzure> ? lenovo, laptops?
00:42 < willPow3r> i wish i would have seen that before i blew 2k on my new u110
00:45 < bkero> I can give anyone here IBM employee pricing on any Lenovo laptops.
00:46 < willPow3r> how much could you get a u110 for?
00:47 < bkero> I dunno
00:47 < willPow3r> do you get like 35% off or something?
00:48 < bkero> Let's see.
00:48 < bkero> They start at $1486.65
00:48 < ybit> para el enlaces (fablab inventory web link), gracias capit?n kanzure 
00:49 < willPow3r> bkero, before emp. pricing?
00:49 < bkero> After
00:51 < willPow3r> they start at 1899 w/out, but are on sale for 1749 right now
00:52 < willPow3r> so about 22%
00:52 < willPow3r> which is significant. wish i had known sooner
00:54 < bkero> I ordered new macbook today.
00:54 < bkero> I have 2 new laptops coming in the following weeks.
00:54  * bkero goes home
00:55  * fenn cries in his milk
00:56 < willPow3r> fenn, melamine milk?
00:56 < fenn> old-laptop milk
00:56 < kanzure> How the fuck do you people afford these things?
00:56 < willPow3r> there is one significant advantage to having an old laptop
00:56 < willPow3r> kanzure, u are familiar w/ the credit crunch, right?
00:57 < willPow3r> the linux drivers.
00:57 < fenn> willPow3r: i'd just buy a new one with linux installed
00:57 < willPow3r> linux wont even install on mine
00:57 < kanzure> willPow3r: What?
00:57 < kanzure> Credit crunch, huh?
00:57 < kanzure> That doesn't explain how you can afford this.
00:58 < willPow3r> i used to be in the air force and i collect funds from them now to go to school
00:58 < kanzure> And this allows multiple laptops?
00:59 < willPow3r> military doesn't pay [i]nearly[/i] as bad as the media makes it sound 
01:00 < fenn> it's a job..
01:00 < willPow3r> "cell phones for soldiers"?? pull-fucking-leeze. they make so much money in combat zones
01:00 < fenn> that pisses me off, because they just grind them all up into toxic sludge to extract the gold, and then i can't get any cellphones to play with
01:02 < kanzure> but I see this in general all across campus
01:02 < willPow3r> kanzure should join the army
01:02 < kanzure> if I join the army, you'll see a death star deployed in under three months
01:02 < kanzure> secret backup garage w/ nitrogen-based rockets
01:02 < kanzure> I have this psychosis; I don't tell you guys nearly as much as I probably should
01:02 < willPow3r> ehh. not impressed.
01:02 < kanzure> Have you seen my journals? :-/
01:03 < willPow3r> do they have pics of you in caves in afghanistan by chance?
01:03 < kanzure> Yes, but I was in metal armor.
01:03 < willPow3r> oh, medevial style
01:03 < kanzure> Nah.
01:08 < willPow3r> it would have been cool though.
01:16 < willPow3r> kanzure, is this you: http://heybryan.org/shots/2008-05-23_bryanhead.png
01:30 < kanzure_> Can somebody help me become more paranoid?
01:31 < fenn> aw, it's like reprap only less pretentious: http://fab.cba.mit.edu/classes/MIT/863.07/11.05/fabaroni/
01:32 < kanzure> "How to Make (Almost) Anything" is a very famous class.
01:32 < kanzure> I recall reading about one year where the class decided to build a 747 while stranded on an island. That sort of thing.
01:33 < fenn> huh?
01:33 < kanzure> Slashdot comment id 5820149
01:33 < kanzure> Maybe.
01:34 < fenn> sounds like sarcasm to me
01:34 < fenn> (not that i can find the comment you're talking about)
01:35 < kanzure> http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aslashdot.org+build+an+airplane+how+to+make+anything&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
01:35 < kanzure> Blargh.
01:37 < fenn> yay, no results
01:39 < kanzure> http://membranes.nbi.dk/publications.html
01:39 < kanzure> http://superkuh.ath.cx/users/superkuh/Library/BrainDynamics/On%20the%20action%20potential%20as%20a%20propagating%20density%20pulse%20and%20the%20role%20of%20anesthetics.pdf
02:34 < kanzure> http://superkuh.ath.cx/users/superkuh/Library/BrainDynamics/Global mapping of pharmacological space nbt1228_Paolini.pdf
02:34 < kanzure> Wouldn't that reek of fenn's global ontological crisis
04:09 -!- mind|distracted is now known as mindspillage
05:01 < xp_prg> hi all!
05:37 < gene> you know people don't tend to like the concept of self-replicating machines
05:39 < gene> they keep telling me that self-replicating robots are bad
05:39 < gene> They have obviously watched too many movies
05:44 < boogles_> Life is a self-replicating machine
05:44 < fenn> how many movies have self-replicating robots anyway? i can only think of one: the terminator series
05:44 < fenn> oh and the matrix
05:45 < fenn> any more?
05:57 < willPow3r> didn't fortress have those?
05:58 < willPow3r> w/ christopher lambert?
06:02 < gene> people see robots as bad beacause movies paint robots as bad
06:03 < gene> Hollywood stereotypes robots
06:06 < gene> will you must be old
06:08 < fenn> ooo james cameron is doing battle angel alita
06:10 < gene> and steven spielberg is doing ghost in the shell
06:10 < fenn> ew
06:10 < fenn> that doesn't even make sense
06:10 < bkero> lol
06:10 < bkero> Keanu Reeves is diong Cowboy Bebop
06:11 < gene> really?
06:11 < gene> spielberg wants to do ghost in the shell
06:11 < gene> he better not do what he did to indiana jones
06:12 < bkero> Keanu Reeves is spike in a live-action Cowboy Bebop
06:13 < gene> I am not familiar with that anime, please wait while plot summaries are loaded...
06:19 < bkero> what
06:20 < bkero> You know GitS but not Bebop?
06:20 < bkero> Bebop is my third favorite anime.
06:20 < bkero> The soundtrack is a close first.
06:22 < fenn> awesome soundtrack
06:23 < fenn> i love 'we qui non coin'
06:24 < bkero> I like the entire thing :)
06:24 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/pub/irc/Cowboy Bebop OST 3 - 14 - We Qui Non Coin.mp3
06:26 < fenn> strangely it has nothing to do with the plot in that particular episode
06:26 < fenn> erm, but i guess you'd have to know japanese to understand what it's about
06:27 < fenn> (it's about a girl whose dog ran away)
06:27 < bkero> Yea
06:27 < bkero> I listen to the soundtrack in alphabetical
06:27 < bkero> I have all 3 OSTs, the Movie soundtrack, and Vitaminless
06:28 < fenn> vitaminless is just the same songs live, right?
06:29 < bkero> No
06:30 < bkero> Vitaminless is actually by the seatbelts
06:30 < bkero> It's Yoko Kanno's band doing covers of Yoko Kanno songs.
06:31 < bkero> Damn, it seems there's a bunch more seatbelts I need
07:38 < fenn> ooo spooky, search for "sharon apple theory" http://www.gabrielarobin.com/mainsite/gr.html
08:27 < fenn> the new sifter interface is refreshingly functional
08:29 < fenn> or maybe it's just the sub-second response time
15:20 < kanzure_1_> http://www.interfacecontrol.com/sml/sml/mainpage.htm Spacecraft Markup Language.
15:22 < kanzure_1_> http://www.yeda.de/dreammarkup/index1.php Dream Markup?
15:23 < kanzure_1_> http://www.interfacecontrol.com/sml/sml/mainpage.htm Spacecraft Markup Language. <-- Phreedom. Since you missed it.
15:24 < Phreedom> kanzure_1_: thanks. will take a look
15:24 < kanzure_1_> fenn: it occurs to me that the 'interface'/flow metadata might already be somewhat implemented with CAPs in ebXML CPP situations
15:27 < kanzure_1_> http://fcmlgroup.org/index.php?id=1&L=2&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=&cHash= Facility Control Markup Language
15:28 < kanzure_1_> Everybody Wants To Be A Markup Language
15:28 < kanzure_1_> Next they're going to want me to design an XML-compatible microprocessor ...
15:37 < kanzure_1_> Explanation of cpp: http://www.developer.com/xml/article.php/2247851
15:37 < kanzure_1_> "The CPP is a formal description file that lists what an organization can do in terms of ebXML operations."
15:37 < kanzure_1_> Except obviously we don't want it in terms of 'organizations' but instead 'parts'.
15:54 < kanzure_1_> http://web.mit.edu/mecheng/pml/why_pml.htm    <-- Hrm.
15:57 < kanzure_1_> "
15:57 < kanzure_1_> Within lower order pairs there are six general types of couplings - spherical, planar, cylindrical, revolute, prismatic and screw, as shown in Figure 7, There are six lower order kinematic pairs -, spherical, planar, cylindrical, revolute, prismatic and screw can be represented easily in the Physical Markup Language."
16:14 < kanzure_1_> fenn: is the male/female socket distinction useful enough to keep?
17:13 < xp_prg> hi all!
17:44  * kanzure_1_ leaves.
17:49  * bkero stays.
17:49 < bkero> lolmicrolanguages
19:34 -!- xp_prg4 is now known as xp_prg
19:57 < fenn> yep otherwise you try to put a nut in a nut
19:57 < fenn> which is possible, but not with the same size thread
20:02 < nsh-> saywhat?
20:04 < splicer> I have a completely unrelated question... does anyone know how a chemical sperm count kit works?
20:05 < nsh-> my friend malthius simbad al-internet probably does
20:05  * nsh- asks
20:06 < splicer> took me a while to get that ;) .. i couldn't find it there
20:08 < splicer> they look like this: http://www.reallifesolutions.co.uk/FORHIMfertilmarqtech.htm
20:09 < splicer> some reaction turns the thing blue in proportion to the amount of sperm
20:09 < splicer> but i can't understand how it works
20:09 < nsh-> how the staining works?
20:09 < nsh-> or how the comparison works?
20:10 < splicer> yeah... it it pH driven?
20:10 < splicer> staining
20:10 < splicer> is it just a stain, like gram staining?
20:11  * nsh- would suspect so
20:11 < nsh-> http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/reprod/semeneval/morph.html looks informative
20:12 < splicer> you´re right... I'm an idoit
20:12 < splicer> ; ) thanks
20:12 < nsh-> np, happy sperming
20:14 < kanzure_> Hrm, it's not supposed to rain in Texas.
20:15 < splicer> it's sperm
20:16 < splicer> sorry about that, I'll do it somewhere else
20:18 < fenn> not pH, semen is highly buffered regardless of sperm content. it's probably a bradford assay?
20:20 < kanzure> fenn: Charles Collis is adciv.org
20:20 < splicer> fenn: About the pH, I overcomplicated it... I imagined some reaction with the sperm that would make the solution acidic. I was far off.
20:22 < splicer> fenn: I think there is a lot of protein in the solution compared to the amount of sperm
20:23 < kanzure_> Also, I've been unable to find mathematical models of the destruction of algal membranes by different methods of energy transfer. Since I've not been able to find anything, I'm considering bruteforcing it .. i.e., total energy content of the membrane, anything greater than that will bust it. Thoughts?
20:23 < bkero> Unequal energy distribution around the membrane?
20:24 < fenn> you can break the membrane at room temp. with the right enzymes
20:24 < kanzure_> fenn: enzymes are another method, that's true.
20:24 < fenn> i'm just saying it's not about energy content
20:24 < fenn> strain in the membrane, for physical methods
20:24  * fenn suddenly has the urge to rap
20:25 < kanzure_> There was a big list going last Saturday.
20:25  * bkero raps his knuckles against fenn's head..
20:25 < bkero> fenn: You should walk into C-money's office and break out some rap.
20:26 < kanzure_> Anyway, for mechanical contact methods, what are some good assumptions to make? 
20:26 < kanzure_> I don't know what characterizes breakability/burstability really.
20:26 < fenn> mechanical contact is probably not very good for single cell algae
20:26 < kanzure_> for instance, I could make up arguments about the energies in the bonds between the atoms in the membrane, but that's not anywhere near true
20:26 < kanzure_> that's true, but I need to come up with something
20:26 < kanzure_> for the general categories.
20:27 < fenn> we used a "pressure cell" i think it was.. you pump water at high pressure through a tiny orifice, the sudden pressure drop across the orifice bursts the cell
20:27 < kanzure_> yes, yes, pressure is also on the list alreaduy
20:27 < kanzure_> *already
20:28 < kanzure_> "A model of neuronal bursting using three coupled first order differential equations" surely this implies a reference to a more general paper?
20:28 < xp_prg> kanzure I did some work on biobench, is it ok if I use google app engine, it is free and works with python which is perfect for using sybioss code
20:28 < fenn> bursting could mean a zillion different things
20:28 < kanzure> xp_prg: What are you talking about?
20:29 < xp_prg> biobench implementation software
20:29 < kanzure_> fenn: Ah, yes, bursting => action potential bursting :/
20:29 < kanzure> xp_prg: I don't want anything dependent on Google unless you can disconnect from the internet and it still works.
20:29 < kanzure> if you're http'ing over to google, that's failure.
20:30 < xp_prg> ok, google app engine will work without google
20:30 < kanzure> is it a javascript download?
20:30 < xp_prg> no it is a very powerful cloud computing offering from google
20:30 < xp_prg> just google for it
20:30 < kanzure> what the fuck
20:30 < kanzure> that would require google
20:30 < xp_prg> it hosts web apps
20:30 < kanzure> " Provides the possibility for developers to host theirs web application on the company's servers."
20:30 < kanzure> yeah, that's failure
20:30 < kanzure> don't do it.
20:30 < xp_prg> no the engine itself can run without it!
20:31 < xp_prg> :(
20:31 < willPow3r> failure == gau
20:31 < willPow3r> gay*
20:31 < xp_prg> hahah will
20:31 < xp_prg> kanzure but it can run without google man!
20:31 < fenn> is it just me, or is the intelligence level of the room falling steadily?
20:32 < kanzure> No, I've noticed it too.
20:32 < xp_prg> kanzure just trust me it works without google it will be ok
20:32 < kanzure> Then why are you asking me?
20:32 < xp_prg> just keeping you in the loop is all :>
20:32 < kanzure> " The Breakdown of Cell Membranes by Electrical and Mechanical Stress" <- Aha.
20:33 < xp_prg> kanzure did you read in Sci Am about causing neurons to fire with light?!
20:33 < kanzure> " Electric field-induced breakdown of lipid bilayers and cell membranes: A thin viscoelastic film  ..." <- Excellent.
20:33 < kanzure> xp_prg: Yes. 
20:33 < xp_prg> that rocked!!!!
20:33 < kanzure> Optogenetics has been around forever though :-)
20:33 < kanzure> Ed Boyden does a lot of that.
20:33 < kanzure> Our labs do too.
20:54 < kanzure> I find this ridiculously awesome: http://jcs.biologists.org/cgi/content/full/114/11/2009 "life without a cell membrane". 
20:57 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/Life_without_a_cell_membrane.pdf
20:57 < fenn> woah.. it's like fluowen
20:57 < kanzure> ?
20:57 < kanzure> No definitions were found for fluowen.
20:57 < fenn> er, flouwen
20:57 < kanzure> " Light-induced changes in membrane potential in Spirogyra"
20:58 < kanzure> dependent on the amount of chloroplast in the cell. Fun.
21:07 < fenn> no-javascript pulldown menus: http://www.grc.com/menudemo.htm
21:11 < kanzure> for 80 micrometers^3 solution of of erythrocytes, with some unknown molarity, it takes about 3.25kV/cm to rupture the bastards.
21:11 < kanzure> (for the records: http://www.biophysj.org/cgi/reprint/14/11/881.pdf )
21:11 < kanzure> page 888 table 1
21:12 < fenn> i'd wager the voltage/distance is the defining characteristic
21:12 < fenn> you can probably increase the field concentration with tiny conductive needles
21:12 < kanzure> 3.25 kV for 80 um^3 is not good.
21:13 < kanzure> what's the rule of thumb, diesel engines are 80% efficient? 
21:13 < kanzure> with some sort of kV output that I forget. Bah. Back to searching.
21:14 < fenn> hmm 80 um^3 = 80 femtoliter
21:15 < fenn> generally higher voltages are more efficient, but diesel is like 25% efficient at most
21:15 < kanzure> that's reason to cry.
21:15 < kanzure> higher voltages are more efficient?
21:15 < fenn> i dont really see what volume has to do with the process
21:15 < kanzure> What the fuck have I been learning in these years of electronics classes
21:15 < kanzure> presumably volume means there's more cells.
21:16 < fenn> higher voltage = less current for the same power; power dissipation goes as the square of current
21:16 < fenn> no i mean, why the fuck are they even mentioning the volume
21:17 < kanzure> what I want is per cell, it's true, but they might be doing something 'special' with their setup. like not counting their cells.
21:17 < fenn> uf. dielectric breakdown doesn't mean what you think it does
21:19 < fenn> hmm.. i read some old cranky stuff about sending electricity into a diseased area at the resonant frequency of the bacteria/parasites, and this would 'pop' them
21:20 < kanzure> so, 
21:21 < kanzure> since each membrane has a 'membrane potential' value that we can measure, would my equation involve that variable to determine the voltage I'd need to kill it?
21:22 < fenn> what do you mean "membrane potential"?
21:22 < kanzure> There was this awesome page in a medical terminology text I shelf that talked about a form of "therapy" where they electrocute the hell out of a diseased area.
21:22 < kanzure> Voltage across the membrane = membrane potential
21:22 < kanzure> No?
21:22 < fenn> ok
21:22 < fenn> in bacteria this is typicalle about 1.2V or so
21:23 < fenn> usually less
21:25 < fenn> i'm picturing something like two nanotube forests intermingling, (one is upside down) and small droplets of water suspended in the oil pass by and make a breakdown path between the nanotubes
21:26 < fenn> but this just seems too high tech
21:26 < kanzure> Agreed.
21:27 < fenn> what was wrong with thermal depolymerization?
21:27 < kanzure> Is 'electroporation' enough? The techniques that labists were using to transfer DNA into cells. Would they expel their lipids at the same time? That sounds counterintuitive .. if DNA is going to be transferred, they want to keep energy caches.
21:28 < kanzure> I don't care what's wrong with it .. I'm attempting to be all good about this and do a direct comparison of the models for the members of the list.
21:28 < fenn> electroporation is brutal, most of the cells die
21:28 < kanzure> 'cell lysis' is another phrase that has just turned up in a result .. should have been more obvious to use that.
21:29 < kanzure> ' Automatic spark gap control for spark source mass spectrometry  ' <-- there's a spark gap spectrometer method?
21:29 < fenn> emission spectroscopy
21:30 < fenn> um, yeah
21:30 < fenn> and plasma desorption
21:30 < kanzure> ' Reagentless mechanical cell lysis by nanoscale barbs in microchannels for sample preparation' http://biopoems.berkeley.edu/publications/DiCarlo-mechanical-LabChip2003.pdf ... almost your nano-electrocution method.
21:31 < fenn> but better since it doesnt need electricity
21:32 < kanzure> 'barbs' on that scale can rupture membranes? That doesn't sound right -- it's always been my understanding that the smaller things are, the less likely things are going to be ruptured by much of anything. I.e., the bigger bubble will surely burst, but as you scale it down, the "sharp tip" is increasingly losing relative "sharpness".
21:33 < kanzure> 'integrated in microfluidic channels'. Oh crap. Was hoping that read 'implemented in microfluidic channels'.
21:33 < fenn> well looks like it works
21:35 < fenn> what was wrong with thermal depolymerization?
21:35 < kanzure> nanospheres with nanobarb spikes?
21:35 < kanzure> I didn't say anything was wrong with it
21:35 < kanzure> gah
21:35 < kanzure> Are you not listening?
21:35 < kanzure> I don't care what's wrong with it .. I'm attempting to be all good about this and do a direct comparison of the models for the members of the list.
21:35 < fenn> ok, it's just.. the most straightforward way to skin a cat is to cut the skin off it
21:36 < kanzure> with a boiler?
21:37 < fenn> yeah basically you pressure cook whatever and it turns into oil, salts, and some dissolved gases
21:37 < fenn> 300C for 15 mins
21:37 < kanzure> of course, you'd want constant flow, so what's the energy requirements on boiling?
21:38 < fenn> theoretically zero, practically i have no idea
21:38 < kanzure> okay, so just assume initial investment energy in boiling will be made up
21:38 < kanzure> and then just worry about thermal heat dissipation
21:38 < fenn> or maybe half the energy required to raise water to 300C
21:38 < fenn> also, it doesnt boil since it's under pressure
21:38 < kanzure> especially with respect to heat dissipation of any specimen you take out
21:39 < kanzure> pressurized systems. fun stuff ..
21:39 < kanzure> Need to run.
21:40 < fenn> maybe just a couple coils of stainless tubing would work
22:41 -!- splicer is now known as Splicer
22:41 -!- Splicer is now known as splicer_sleeping
23:11 < bkero> Hm
23:12 < bkero> So if you chop off the top half of a rat except for it's spinal cord and soak the leftovers in neurotransmitters, the legs kick.
23:22 < kanzure> bkero: Working late in the lab?
23:23 < bkero> kanzure: Heh
23:23 < bkero> I work at google right now
23:23 < bkero> Back to the lab in January