--- Day changed Sun Nov 02 2008
00:00 < kanzure-_> http://www.explorecircuits.com/circuit/schematic/3.jpg 
00:00 < kanzure-_> http://www.motherearthnews.com/multimedia/image-gallery.aspx?id=69552&seq=1
00:00 < fenn> ok let me make one thing clear: piezo does not work the same way as a speaker coil, so the circuit to drive it will be different
00:00 < fenn> i dont know how because i've never looked into it
00:02 < kanzure-_> "Some dog whistles have adjustable sliders for active control of the frequency produced." (typical dog whistle is 22 kHz)
00:02 < fenn> almost 2 orders of magnitude too low
00:03 < kanzure-_> "Some cell phone ringtone providers invented a so-called dog whistle ringtone that can be heard by young people, but not old ones (the spectrum of frequencies that a human can hear narrows with age) so that high school students can have their cellular phones on in class." <-- This was ultrasound? I thought the speakers wouldn't be able to handle it.
00:03 < fenn> cellphones use piezo speakers
00:04 < fenn> i think you will need to set up two transducers, one transmittin and one receiving, just to make sure you're actually making ultrasound
00:05 < kanzure-_> http://searchwarp.com/swa227833.htm <- some guy took 30 years making an adjustable dog whistle for 3 to 30 kHz. Bah. Oh well.
00:05 < kanzure-_> actually I was thinking that if I make a variable/adjustable circuit that I'd just tone it down to 10 kHz to see if it works at all
00:05 < kanzure-_> but that might be asking too much wrt the range
00:05 < fenn> 30 years eh.. i knew a guy who made an ultrasound to electricity converter in two months
00:06 < fenn> he called it his "fingerburner" because it would set things on fire across the room with acoustic energy
00:07 < kanzure-_> by pointing his finger?
00:07 < fenn> you could tune a resonant cavity (think: bell) to interact with the ultrasound and produce an audible tone
00:07 < kanzure-_> How's that?
00:07 < kanzure-_> Mystic heathen ways! Burn him!
00:07 < fenn> it would burn his finger if he stuck his hand in the apparatus
00:08  * kanzure-_ points fingerburner at fenn
00:08 < kanzure-_> oh
00:08 < kanzure-_> I was expecting you to spontaneously combust
00:08 < kanzure-_> Nevermind.
00:08 < fenn> sometimes the ultrasound would "leak" and make invisible burning rays
00:09 < fenn> "God gave those creatures a unique ability to sneeze under our skin" uh what?
00:10 < kanzure-_> what?
00:11 < fenn> did you ever read about the Flanagan neurophone?
00:12 < kanzure-_> yeah, you linked me to it
00:15  * fenn flops onto his pallet
00:15 < kanzure-_> hm?
00:16 < fenn> nedtime
00:17 < kanzure-_> http://austin.craigslist.org/bab/902120854.html <- 2 MHz ultrasound machine. 
00:17 < kanzure-_> Not adjustable, but I could probably hack for parts.
00:30 < kanzure-_> I am confused. Is this useful or not? http://www.valuetesters.com/Protek-B801-Sweep-Function-Generator-0-02Hz-to-2MHz.php
00:32 < kanzure-_> Why can't I just plug something into RS232 and go crazy, if that's what I need?
00:34 < kanzure-_> http://www.cappels.org/dproj/functsweep/functionswp.html
00:43 -!- ybit2 is now known as ybit
00:43 -!- ybit is now known as h2i
00:43 -!- h2i is now known as ybit
00:45 < kanzure-_> http://ezultrasound.com/US1000.aspx
00:51 < kanzure-_> http://www.alibaba.com/catalog/100010338/1_And_3_MHz_Dual_Ultrasound_Ultrasonic_Facemate_Massager_Es330_Body_And_Face.html
00:52 < kanzure-_> http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=14562 <- Aha.
00:54 < kanzure-_> http://mysite.du.edu/~etuttle/electron/elect16.htm
00:55 < kanzure-_> Okay. Looks like I'm going to have to make an LC filter or sine wave generator circuit and directly couple that to the piezo.
00:55  * kanzure-_ leaves
01:25 < kanzure_> I suppose it's rather silly to try to make a sine wave generator circuit while blind. I guess I'll have to go fetch a lab with an oscilloscope and wave generator.
01:27 < kanzure_> I wonder how you can predict frequency of a dog whistle given a certain amount of input air at some applied pressure. The design of the inner chamber somehow contributes to resulting frequency.
01:42 < wrldpc> !
01:48 < kanzure_> wrldpc: ?
02:15 < kanzure_> Uh. I wonder why I didn't try centrifugation + filtration simultaneously today. I was doing gravity filtration. Bleh.
02:15 < kanzure_> 0.2 micrometer pores. Was expensive stuff.
02:21 < kanzure_> Hi ybit .
02:22 < ybit> oi kanzure_
02:25 < kanzure_> I wonder what the maximum frequency expressed in an mp3 file is.
02:25 < kanzure_> and if that's not constrained, then if cell phones will play a megahertz frequency tone in an mp3 file for a ringtone
03:57 < kanzure_> Ah, it's called a synthesized function generator.
05:32 < kanzure_> I received a package from the Boston Fab Lab people today.
05:32 < kanzure_> SATA 1 TB hdd.
05:33 < kanzure_> The server will be going offline shortly. I'm transferring again to yet another box.
05:33 < kanzure_> Particularly everything in /books/
05:34 < kanzure_> and /graph/ and /bioreactor/
06:03 < gene_> topic is fags?
06:04 < gene_> wtf
06:04 < gene_> the fablab people?
06:06 < kanzure_> Hrm. I'm not supposed to be able to be on two boxes at once, what with the dhcp kicking and the no-sharing and the evilness.
06:07 < bryan__> Huh.
06:07 < bryan__> Different IP addresses.
06:12 -!- bryan__ changed the topic of #hplusroadmap to: _
06:15 < kanzure_> Alright. The server is back up.
11:52 < facefaceface> A friend just sent me this - http://docs.google.com/View?docid=ah79fdd5kmrp_222fk4f88dz
11:53 < facefaceface> any views? I mean I know this idea isn't revolutionary, but any tips to help him on his way?
11:59 < fenn> try to contact OLPC
12:00 < fenn> at first i thought it was going to be like Bucky Fuller's "World Game"
12:01 < facefaceface> OLPC?
12:01 < fenn> one laptop per child
12:01 < facefaceface> coo
12:01 < facefaceface> l
12:02 < fenn> i dunno what he's trying to say really. MUD and MOO have been around for decades
12:03 < facefaceface> yeah, I don't really see it either... still, with more work it should mature.
12:03 < facefaceface> I mean if he's serious about developing it.
12:03 < fenn> if i had a nickel for every time i heard that :\
12:07 < facefaceface> hehe
16:19 < kanzure_> Hello SL4observer.
16:20 < kanzure_> Oh. PeerInfinity.
16:26 < SL4observer> please excuse the newbie question, but... Peer crashed, and now IRC won't let me log in as Peer.  What do I do to fix this, just wait?
16:26 < kanzure_> ghost kill. Go ask NickServ for help. /msg nickserv help
16:29 < UtopiahGHML> look for "recover" AFAIR
16:32 < SL4observer> hmm, I typed that, and it's not loading the help info...
16:43 < SL4observer> there, that worked :)
16:43 < SL4observer> thanks :)
17:33 < kanzure_> I'd like to see "auto load next page in gmail" and "make threads like Google Groups hierarchy in gmail" as two userscripts/greasemonkeys.
17:37 < UtopiahGHML> what would that do?
17:38 < kanzure_> Which one?
17:38 < kanzure_> Autoload next page should be rather obvious :)
17:38 < UtopiahGHML> not really
17:38 < UtopiahGHML> would it just load the data in the background?
17:39 < kanzure_> For those of us who receive >700 emails a day, and when we're not at our clients, autoloading of the next page of results to append below the current display.
17:39 < kanzure_> No, it would load it on screen.
17:39 < kanzure_> It shows a maximum of 100 emails per page. This needs to be fixed. ;-)
17:40 < kanzure_> Also, why is xrandr so out of date on debian etch?
17:40 < UtopiahGHML> >700 emails a day
17:41 < kanzure_> Right.
17:41 < UtopiahGHML> obviously a filtering problem there
17:42 < kanzure_> Nope. See, I use gmail to display everything unfiltered.
17:42 < kanzure_> And I have my kmail client sort everything for me.
17:42 < kanzure_> So usually I'm in front of kmail and can go look in categories or whatever,
17:42 < kanzure_> but sometimes I need to see the raw inbox so that I don't miss something super important
17:43 < UtopiahGHML> you receive >700 emails a day on average
17:43 < UtopiahGHML> emails emails or twitt+rss+..?
17:43 < kanzure_> No twits. 
17:43 < kanzure_> twitts?
17:43 < kanzure_> whichever :)
17:44 < kanzure_> Ah, but there is some RSS in there. I receive all Elsevier ScienceDirect journal updates. But I don't include this in my count.
17:44 < kanzure_> UtopiahGHML: http://heybryan.org/mailing_lists.html <---
17:44 < UtopiahGHML> (Elsevier made RSS with stats in it, like top-whatever article, pretty nice)
17:45 < UtopiahGHML> yep I wouldn't cound mailing list as "emails" to me an email is sth with <5 recipients
17:45 < kanzure_> Meh, I just get the raw updates. :) It's actually kinda useful every once in a while. "Oh lookie, updates in manufacturing." And then I get to go yell at how much it all sucks.
17:45 < kanzure_> Hrm.
17:45 < kanzure_> Well then, I do receive a lot of those too. But much less than 700.
17:47 < kanzure_> So this actually brings up a topic that I should get off my chest.
17:47 < kanzure_> I've been wondering how to scale my correspondence so that I can keep up to date with everyone that I meet. 
17:48 < kanzure_> Lee Corbin and I were discussing some methods of this up in California last I saw him. I told him that if I could find the time, I'd sit down and go through the list of everyone I have ever known and make some more formal documentation about each piece of correspondence (email, chat, whatever)
17:48 < kanzure_> I was supposed to do this in August, but I didn't get around to this apparnetly.
17:48 < UtopiahGHML> Im trying to make a tool for similar problems, basically good practices based on "Never eat alone"
17:48 < UtopiahGHML> (book on social networking)
17:48 < kanzure_> I haven't read it. 
17:49 < kanzure_> But anyway, yes, food is best stored in the belly of a friend.
17:49 < UtopiahGHML> mindmap notes http://www.mind42.com/pub/mindmap?mid=604356a3-1808-469c-a28b-036d99bafab3
17:49 < UtopiahGHML> and basically I end up with a wiki page with people and information/people to link them with
17:50 < UtopiahGHML> ideally Id just drop profiles/information on the picture of someone but so far it's just theoretical
17:50 < kanzure_> Right, I was going to do something pretty similar, maybe a few tools for XML for some of the information, but much of the info is unstructured
17:50 < UtopiahGHML> and I started http://seedea.free.fr/wiki/index.php?n=Oimp.Socialannotating too
17:50 < kanzure_> yeah, since I always have my cameras with me anyway (uh, actually, this is not true any more .. where'd my battery recharger go?)
17:50 < UtopiahGHML> (should have a solar-pannel backback)
17:51 < kanzure_> So, one of the things that's hard for me is keeping track of who to send an email to.
17:51 < kanzure_> I know always to reply to sender, and usually also to everyone else that the original sender sent to, yes, of course.
17:51 < UtopiahGHML> (I have a "2reply" red tag in Gmail)
17:51 < kanzure_> But for instance, Michel has introduced me to many people (>30?), and so has Tony and Paul, but keeping lists of "who to reply to when the topic is xyz" is difficult.
17:51 < UtopiahGHML> (I don't have RSS reminder yet though)
17:52 < kanzure_> Mostly because it's never as clear-cut as "XYZ" anyway.
17:52 < kanzure_> For instance, when I meet someone, I'm "in the zone" and kind of know what I know about them and what I don't know about them, and thus know what to send them and what not to send them.
17:52 < UtopiahGHML> I make mental annotation and write them down ASAP
17:52 < kanzure_> But then as time goes on, I lose that "zoning" and even forget the new contacts simply because I had to drop their communication in place of more urgent/interesting things that come up
17:52 < UtopiahGHML> and I make explicit feedback on material I share
17:52 < kanzure_> Yes, but mental annotations are hard to sort through.
17:52 < kanzure_> Natural language sucks ..
17:53 < UtopiahGHML> well you could use some neural networks based on feedback you receive :)
17:53 < kanzure_> It's also interesting that this is resembled in the Communication-Initiator Problem.
17:53 < kanzure_> UtopiahGHML: No doubt we could all use such. :)
17:54 < fenn> tag tag tag
17:54 < kanzure_> in the Initiator Problem, as I call it, you start to notice that on all of those mailing lists, not many people frequently /start/ conversations
17:54 < kanzure_> I've also observed over my life time that not many people initiate conversations with me.
17:54 < kanzure_> erm, brb
17:54 < kanzure_> phone
17:54 < kanzure_> how ironic
17:55 < kanzure_> Okay, that doesn't count. That was my father.
17:55 < kanzure_> To tell me of the Peirce Brosnan Bond movies on USA :-) Heh.
17:55 < UtopiahGHML> so far, if you want to make it scalable you have to group people, beside that you can ... copy yourself
17:55 < UtopiahGHML> but then you'd have to sync then delete ;)
17:55 < kanzure_> Anyway, because of my observation of the Initiator Problem, I try to see how I could initiate such that I don't cause others to realize that others don't initiate with them either
17:56 < kanzure_> UtopiahGHML: I don't see why you'd have to delete.
17:56 < kanzure_> fork and merge, fork and merge, but nothing about delete
17:56 < kanzure_> fenn: Tagging sucks here.
17:56 < UtopiahGHML> if you can manage it
17:56 < kanzure_> You can capture some of the information, some, but it's not the same.
17:56 < fenn> kanzure_: why?
17:56 < fenn> but it's computer-parseable
17:56 < kanzure_> did you read my explanation of "zoning" and the drop off that is induced by time and going on to other things?
17:56 < fenn> so you can build a list of people who might be interested
17:57 < kanzure_> I also think this mirrors somewhat how people use folders and directories in their filing systems.
17:57 < kanzure_> Personally I find it excruciatingly painful to sort things into folders. 
17:57 < fenn> yes because files have many possible categorizations (and so do people)
17:57 < kanzure_> For years I've been trying to keep something like /home/bryan/scifi/ with my own doodlings, and yet, when I come up with something new, I can't remember where to put it.
17:58 < kanzure_> it's not so much that I get an anxiety attack because I don't know _which_ to put it in, but because I literally forget where I'm trying to squirrel it away into .. heh'
17:58 < fenn> that's just losing context
17:58 < kanzure_> yes
17:58 < kanzure_> that's not just a "just "
17:58 < fenn> meh
17:58 < fenn> i periodically clean out all the unsorted junk that accumulates in ~
17:58 < fenn> so then it's not hard to traverse the tree
17:59 < UtopiahGHML> if you don't remember it then it's probably not that important anyway.
17:59 < kanzure_> UtopiahGHML: WRONG.
17:59 < kanzure_> Sorry for caps.
17:59 < fenn> other people will find your /scifi/ dir from a google search and then say "oh there's only one entry too bad" and leave
17:59 < UtopiahGHML> np but I prefer caps+justification that no-caps but no argumentation ;)
17:59 < kanzure_> oh crap, I might actually have a scifi dir there
17:59  * kanzure_ checks
18:00 < kanzure_> woah, I do.
18:00 < kanzure_> Huh.
18:00 < fenn> the whole website vs server directory tree thing is annoying
18:00 < fenn> like / maps to /var/www
18:00 < kanzure_> also keeping a dir structure over time. It's annoying that I had to map /graph/ to /mnt/maxtor/all/2008-10-18/
18:00 < kanzure_> UtopiahGHML: Everything is important ..
18:00 < fenn> uh, you're probably doing it wrong then
18:00 < kanzure_> fenn: hrm? 
18:01 < kanzure_> I suppose I could have moved 2008-10-18 to /mnt/hdb1/ where the main public_html sits
18:01  * fenn mumbles something about logical volumes
18:01 < UtopiahGHML> not everything is important, like in chess.
18:01 < kanzure_> so, /mnt/hdb1/home/bbishop/public_html/ is where index.php is
18:01 < kanzure_> and then there's /home/bbishop/public_html/ where we see http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/
18:01 < fenn> why is everythig in /mnt? you can mount anywhere in a filesystem
18:01 < kanzure_> and then there's /mnt/maxtor/all/ where some of the http://heybryan.org/books/ stuff is
18:02 < kanzure_> because the links everywhere already point to /mnt/ stuffs.
18:02 < kanzure_> I've been using symlinks more frequently though, and it's helping sort of
18:05 < fenn> re: initiator problem, you have to feel "responsible" for some {community, project, topic} before you start posting new thread topics
18:05 < fenn> +ideas
18:06 < kanzure_> you basically just said "prioritization"
18:06 < fenn> no, there's plenty of things that are low on the priority list that i still feel "responsible" for
18:06 < UtopiahGHML> the only situation where you don't need priorities is when you have illimited resources.
18:06 < kanzure_> unlimited?
18:06 < kanzure_> :)
18:06 < UtopiahGHML> same
18:06 < kanzure_> oh? 
18:07 < UtopiahGHML> but thanks for the correction
18:08 < UtopiahGHML> anyway Im out of here, good luck with being socially scalable especially outside of the net
18:11 < kanzure_> There is no outside.
18:11 < fenn> a prison without boundaries
18:12 < kanzure_> "the only way out is back in"
18:12  * kanzure_ hums the tune to "I want to dive into the black hole"
18:12 < fenn> garbage out garbage in
18:13 < kanzure_> fenn: but I still have to wonder how people like Leibniz did it
18:13 < kanzure_> besides an obvious answer of having assistants or something
18:14 < kanzure_> I'm pretty sure he didn't have an assistant. Maybe he did.
18:14 < kanzure_> Leibniz was apparently corresponding with 600 people by hand
18:14 < fenn> you mean his writing thousands of letters a day?
18:14 < kanzure_> to many hundreds of different people? yeah
18:15 < fenn> did they even have a postage system in place? how the heck did that work
18:15 < kanzure_> were they smart enough to include the previous mails in the envelopes for replies?
18:15 < kanzure_> was this still when people sent scrolls to each other? probably not..
18:16 < kanzure_> 1646 to 1716..
18:17 < fenn> first stamp was 1840
18:18 < kanzure_> which country?
18:18 < fenn> probably britain, "penny black"
18:22 < kanzure_> "Only in 1895, when Bodemann completed his catalogues of Leibniz's manuscripts and correspondence, did the enormous extent of Leibniz's Nachlass become clear: about 15,000 letters to more than 1000 recipients plus more than 40,000 other items. Moreover, quite a few of these letters are of essay length."
18:23 < kanzure_> "I cannot tell you how extraordinarily distracted and spread out I am. I am trying to find various things in the archives; I look at old papers and hunt up unpublished documents. From these I hope to shed some light on the history of the [House of] Brunswick. I receive and answer a huge number of letters. At the same time, I have so many mathematical resutls, philosophical thoughts and other literary innovations that should not be allowed to vanish
18:24 < kanzure_> that often I do not know where to begin."
18:24 < kanzure_> *results
18:30 < kanzure-> http://leibnizviii.bbaw.de/pdf/Aus+Otto+von+Guericke%252C+Experimenta+nova/LH035%252C14%252C02_091v/LH035,14!02_091+va.png
18:31 < kanzure_> Now surely it would be impractical to write all of that in flowing handwritting.
18:32  * fenn squints
18:32 < kanzure_> Though there's hardly meta information about how he managed all of it.
18:32 < fenn> i think i see some numbers
18:33 < fenn> perhaps by some miracle one could sic an OCR AI on it
18:34 < kanzure_> If those "40,000 items" include little pieces of paper, then I might be able to understand.
18:34 < kanzure_> I surely already have thousands of little pieces of paper with stupid little notes on it that I'll never see again ..
18:34 < kanzure_> *never read again
19:25 < fenn> bah. hotmail has gotten so bad i cant even send an email any more
19:27 < kanzure_> Hotmail, fenn? Really now?
19:28 < fenn> spam prevention measure
19:28 < fenn> i'm trolling craigslist ads
19:28 < fenn> job postings
19:29 < kanzure_> is it working?
19:29 < fenn> is what working?
19:29 < kanzure_> nevermind.
19:29 < fenn> the jobs available are all horribly depressing and have ridiculous experience/certification requirements
19:30 < fenn> and half of them are work at home scams
19:30 < kanzure_> Yes, I've noticed the job pre-req certification inflation thing too.
19:31 < fenn> gasp, i got a response!
19:31 < kanzure_> impossible!
19:31 < fenn> it's a real human!
19:31 < kanzure_> HR dept. goons do not count as real people.
19:31 < fenn> no, a real real human
19:37 < fenn> a veterinarian apparently
19:37 < fenn> "vegan housekeeper wanted"
19:37 < kanzure_> housekeeper?
19:38 < fenn> http://bloomington.craigslist.org/lab/881416217.html
19:39 < kanzure_> I'm confused. What am I doing?
19:40 < fenn> muwahahaha, now that i have you in my trap, you have no option but to obey my commands!
19:40 < fenn> rub your head and pat your belly!
19:40 < fenn> no, the other way
19:41 < kanzure_> I .. I .. can't.
19:41 < kanzure_> Hrm. Nevermind. Turns out I can. I suspect it's the Adderall.
19:41 < fenn> yeah i never got what was so hard about that
19:42 < kanzure_> I have to do it with my left-hand on my head.
20:07 < kanzure-> http://news.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1012183&cid=25566031 <- ITAR-insider-guy-who-is-screwed
20:09 < kanzure-> Is this serious? http://news.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1012183&cid=25571167
20:13 < fenn> "illegal export of its technology" there are so many things wrong with that sentence
20:14 < kanzure_> Isn't a multi-axis milling machine kind of obvious?
20:15 < kanzure_> Hm. These are 3+ axis, right?
20:16 < fenn> hm that "cheers, Gene" sounds like a guy on the emc mailing list
20:17 < fenn> as well as the whining about 74 and diabetic, waiting to fall over, yadda yadda
20:17 < fenn> ITAR restricts 6-axis milling machines, which doesn't really make sense because you can do anything with 5 axis
20:18 < fenn> anyway, hexapods are 6-axis :\
20:19 < kanzure_> perl doesn't have any 3D modeling modules. 
20:19 < fenn> that's what you think
20:19 < kanzure_> Does have python have anything? I remember blender using python.
20:19 < kanzure_> fenn: Eh? Care to show me?
20:19 < kanzure_> I've been searching on cpan for a bit.
20:20 < fenn> http://www.bruno.postle.net/neatstuff/draft/
20:20 < fenn> ok so maybe not
20:20 < fenn> but it's still cool
20:21 < fenn> blender and freecad both have python API/built in terminal
20:21 < kanzure_> ah, http://search.cpan.org/dist/Draft/
20:21 < kanzure_> "CAD directory-based file format demo"
20:22 < kanzure_> hrm, this is more CAD geometry w/ lines than what I'm looking for
20:22 < fenn> what are you looking for?
20:22 < kanzure_> I'd like to find either a mesh vertex handler or something that can do 3D geometric primitives with adding them together or subtracting them from each other
20:22 < kanzure_> "what's a sphere minus a pyramid" => shape
20:22 < fenn> hmm. nope
20:23 < fenn> brlcad could do that
20:23 < kanzure_> so blender-python-stuff should be able to do this.
20:23 < fenn> blender _should_ be able to do that :)
20:24 < kanzure_> How did I use to do this with OpenGL?
20:24 < kanzure_> I remember OGL's vertex specification API for making shapes and objects,
20:25 < kanzure_> and I also remember some premade libraries for reading in common 3D model file formats
20:25 < kanzure_> Where's my OGL superbible when I need it? Grumble grumble .. don't let parents convince you to keep books behind.
20:26 < fenn> GLUT cant do CSG
20:26 < kanzure_> CSG?
20:26 < fenn> hence why there's a http://opencsg.org/
20:27 < fenn> i wish whatsisname would release pythonizer open source
20:27 < fenn> so we could just slap a quick dirty python mapping on all these C++ libraries
20:27 < kanzure_> I'm not familiar with this method.
20:28 < kanzure_> It looked like the python and perl bindings to libsbml were automatically generated with some tool that I'm forgetting the name of.
20:28 < kanzure_> Uh, swig?
20:28 < fenn> http://www.pythonizer.org/pythoncascade/pythoncascade.html
20:28 < kanzure_> I don't think it's swig. Sounds too close to java's swing.
20:28 < kanzure_> Ah.
20:28 < fenn> swig = python binding generator
20:28 < kanzure_> go figure.
20:28 < kanzure_> ok, so I'm kind of just goofing off right now
20:28 < fenn> better than banging your head against a wall
20:28 < kanzure_> the random 3D shape generation
20:29 < fenn> so you are trying to shake a box of virtual parts around and see how they might fit together?
20:30 < kanzure_> I'm not sure whether it's the ASD or the rock that causes me to bang my head to stuff like "metal health". uh, link in a sec, am running locate
20:30 < kanzure_> no, but that'd be cool too :)
20:30 < kanzure_> This is more like metal forming
20:30 < kanzure_> single-material manipulation
20:30 < kanzure_> so, in the end this might end up being an algebraic expression language dealy
20:31 < kanzure_> triangle params, sphere params, next-shape-here, and then run it through a script and outpops a 3D model
20:31 < kanzure_> This is most definitely not for interfacing of parts together, although I might have to do something similar.
20:31 < kanzure_> When specifying the shapes to add/subtract, it would have to know where to place them on the already-built-shape
20:31 < kanzure_> which would involve something like markers or tags or something I guess
20:32 < fenn> oh .. /me remembers some eric hunting post whining about lack of geometry specification language
20:33 < kanzure_> analytical geometry surely already has an ML for itself
20:34 < kanzure_> Huh. Google's "preferences" page now has "Format: HTML (default), PDA, XHTML"
20:35 < fenn> (x) YAML
20:37 < kanzure-> http://heybryan.org/books/music/9-01-07/Twisted%20Sister/Bang%20Your%20Head.mp3
20:37 < kanzure-> God that took forever to find.
20:39 < kanzure_> (And it's not even the Quiet Riot version. Bah.)
20:41 < fenn> i think it's the metal
20:42 < fenn> you weren't even alive in the 80's so how the heck do you like 80's metal?
20:43 < kanzure_> When you spend enough time behind a search box, you find everything
20:43 < kanzure_> I stumbled upon Gamma Ray in 2003 or 2004 when I was searching for "new world order".
20:44 < kanzure_> Some friends started to hail and salute me in hallways in school, it was peculiar, so we joked about new world orders and the like.
20:44 < kanzure_> So now I'm a metalhead .. or something.
20:53 < kanzure-> http://labs.freehackers.org/wiki/pythonmeshviewer
20:54 < facefaceface> hey guys, just catching up above
20:54 < facefaceface> about leibnitz, do you think we can clone him?
20:54 < facefaceface> do you think a modern day leibnitz would be as good?
20:55 < facefaceface> and if given the choice would you like to form 'a group' with einstein, liebnitz, whats his name... invented the normal distribution...
20:55 < facefaceface> I figure who better to have on 'my team' than those kinds of insainly intellegent people from history.
20:56 < facefaceface> about the 'who should get cc'ed in what' question, this is something that I think email software could help with really easily.
20:56 < kanzure_> How would that be?
20:56 < facefaceface> I have posted on thunderbird mailing lists about this
20:56 < facefaceface> a spam filter for any folder
20:56 < facefaceface> with a learning algorithm that is based on what you file there
20:57 < kanzure_> Meh.
20:57 < facefaceface> so you define groups by just sticking emails into folder, and the folder learns (just like a spam filter) a set of rules for inclusion.
20:57 < facefaceface> I see where your coming from, but it would be a big help to me
20:57 < kanzure_> Then you get too many groups to scroll through and you end up not sending the messages to the right groups. For instance, once you hit 192041941041 mailing lists like I have ..
20:58 < facefaceface> I have about 10 folders in Gmail, mostly because I gave up adding rules to sort them
20:58 < kanzure_> As for cloning Leibniz, have you seen the groups that are working on cloning jesus?
20:58 < kanzure_> I have about 100 folders in kmail. ;-)
20:58 < facefaceface> kanzure_, if there are too many groups for you to handle, you have too many groups to handle ;-)
20:58 < kanzure_> Bull fucking shit.
20:58 < kanzure_> Rawr.
20:58 < facefaceface> heheh
20:58 < facefaceface> kanzure_, I wanted to work on a 'jesus burger' - custom meat on a stick
20:59 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Meat_on_a_stick
20:59 < facefaceface> kanzure_, but, what I mean is, you have some information to 'categorize' into some vague "mailing list" that is a group of friends or contacts that you think will be, or who have declared their interest
21:00 < facefaceface> and you complained that you forget who defines the 'mailing list' precicely that is.
21:00 < kanzure_> Yes, I know what you are suggesting.
21:00 < facefaceface> vaguely you know that so and so and such and such...
21:00 < kanzure_> This is not different from fenn's suggestion of tagging, except you might choose to add stupid probability crap.
21:00 < facefaceface> I think a spam filter generator would help a lot
21:00 < facefaceface> kanzure_, exactly
21:00 < facefaceface> crap that constitutes intellegence ;-)
21:00 < kanzure_> Hahah.
21:00 < facefaceface> how do you decide
21:00 < facefaceface> ?
21:00 < kanzure_> What's a decision?
21:00 < facefaceface> your spirit is disconected from your physical body?
21:01 < kanzure_> My what?
21:01 < facefaceface> decide who gets included in a certain posting?
21:01 < facefaceface> you make some statistical inference based on a domain ontology and statistical inference
21:01 < facefaceface> wait, thats too much stats
21:01 < kanzure_> You're lying.
21:01 < kanzure_> The real truth is that I don't remember everyone I've ever met when I write an email.
21:01 < facefaceface> perhaps not (according to aristotle ;-)
21:02 < facefaceface> kanzure_, sure, but a bunch of 'likely suspects' somhow spring to mind
21:02 < kanzure_> Stats isn't how it springs to mind.
21:02 < kanzure_> That's neurobiology/neuroscience.
21:02 < facefaceface> kanzure_, I choose to believe that underlying that is an algorithm
21:03 < facefaceface> underlying that neurobiology
21:03 < kanzure_> As long as you agree it's the brain that needs to be changed.
21:03 < kanzure_> Not some stupid stats crap about "decisions".
21:03 < kanzure_> Nobody has shown a neurobiological basis of the existence of "decisions".
21:03 < kanzure_> That's just folk psych ontological bullshitting. :(
21:03 < facefaceface> kanzure_, but decisions exist at the level of cc or not cc
21:04 < facefaceface> ultimately you do one thing or another, and that is a useful way to describe our behaviour
21:04 < kanzure_> Not true, because I don't remember everyone I ever met.
21:05 < facefaceface> I don't disagree with the idea that perhaps its not the most efficient / correct way to categorise our behaviour
21:05 < facefaceface> kanzure_, I don't see the argument
21:05 < facefaceface> you don't have infinite knowledge therefore no 'decision' that you apparently make is a true decision in some abstract sense?
21:06 < kanzure_> You're bringing up stupid things like behavior and classification and other crap that isn't necessary here. The fundamental problem is that I lose context and "drop out of the zone" and fail to understand people after some amount of time. This isn't a categorization issue .. this is a "keeping it in mind issue". Nevermind. I don't think you understand what I was saying earlier today.
21:07 < facefaceface> fair enough
21:07 < kanzure_> But I'd be willing to pick up the topic if you'd want to talk about the original issue .. :)
21:10 < kanzure_> fenn: I'm missing a few python modules. Is there a cpan -i equivalent?
21:11 < kanzure_> Meh. apt had pygame.
21:12 < facefaceface> kanzure_, :-)
21:12 < kanzure_> Hm?
21:14 < facefaceface> sorry, I'm busy working with endnote
21:14 < facefaceface> anyone got any experience
21:14 < facefaceface> I need to read in a library from an existing 'reference' section, but I don't know if that is possible
21:15 < kanzure_> I keep forgetting to go to the Endnote training sessions on campus.
21:15 < fenn> no, cpan is just another package manager to worry about
21:15 < kanzure_> neglecting, rather.
21:16 < kanzure_> This is rather stupid. In that python mesh viewer, 3D objects are instantiated with the Object() object. Gah.
21:16 < kanzure_> Isn't that reserved?
21:16 < facefaceface> looks like I just have to populate the endnote library by hand
21:17 < kanzure_> What's a 'reference section'? Do you mean the references in a given PDF?
21:17 < kanzure_> or something endnote-specific?
21:18 < fenn> hum i thought some fMRI stuff showed you made a decision a couple seconds before you consciously made the decision
21:18 < facefaceface> no, the references in a given word document
21:18 < facefaceface> fenn, computer says no
21:18 < kanzure_> There's BibTeX if you want to automatically parse into an XML-like format
21:18 < kanzure_> But I don't think they have interfaces for APA/MPA citation formats .. they /should/ in an ideal situation
21:19 < kanzure_> fenn: I remember that. Are you claiming that a pattern of blood flow == decision?
21:19 < kanzure_> from identity import decision
21:19 < kanzure_> given no 'identity' module you can't really import decision all too well
21:20 < fenn> pff call it "phase change" if you want
21:20 < facefaceface> kanzure_, are you arguing against a link between the physical state of the brain and the 'mental' world of thoughts and 'decisions'?
21:20 < fenn> the point is, something happens
21:20 < kanzure_> fenn: Interesting. I'll have to play with that concept a bit.
21:21 < fenn> it's vital for survival, obviously
21:21 < fenn> can't jump and not jump
21:21 < kanzure_> facefaceface: No. What's a mind?
21:21 < kanzure_> I'd argue that it's poorly defined and that nobody knows what they're talking about, so best avoid it and get on with things.
21:21 < facefaceface> kanzure_, what I personally experience
21:21 < facefaceface> thats my mind
21:21 < kanzure_> ambiguous, sorry :)
21:21 < facefaceface> fair enough, but it seems to be playing a role in your thinking
21:22 < facefaceface> kanzure_, abigous yes
21:22 < facefaceface> subjective by definition, hence the problem
21:22 < facefaceface> but is it impossible to talk of neural correlates of consciousness just because its hard?
21:22 < kanzure_> since you can't define what it is that you are experiencing, (that's the job of the universe), <stuff>
21:22 < kanzure_> No, subjectivity is not a problem.
21:23 < kanzure_> No, I don't think consciousness exists really, since nobody can define it.
21:23 -!- fenn changed the topic of #hplusroadmap to: no philosophy, please.
21:24 < fenn> next you guys will be talking about whether "exists" really means anything
21:24 < facefaceface> but fenn thats a philosophical statement
21:24 < facefaceface> I think consciousness can be defined in a variety of ways
21:24 < kanzure_> Oh boy.
21:24 < facefaceface> It depends on what you need the definition to do
21:25 < kanzure_> uh, let's stop there.
21:25 < facefaceface> I don't think that philosophical discussion should be arbitrarily avoided, especially when it is the core (believe it or not) of the argument.
21:25 < facefaceface> I don't want to talk to myself, so yes.
21:25 < jm|earth> ;-)
21:25 < kanzure_> But at this point I'm just repeating myself.
21:26 < kanzure_> We've talked for many hours/days in here about grounding problems.
21:26 < facefaceface> no, your saying, i'm right, but lets not talk about it.
21:26 < facefaceface> OK
21:26 < facefaceface> I thought you meant with me
21:26 < fenn> grounding is not a problem in industrial control systems
21:26 < fenn> its all this frou frou mathematical bullshit where people get off on philosophical tangents
21:27 < fenn> the biggest step is going from a sensor reading to a dimensional unit
21:27 < kanzure_> dimensional units => more for sharing information than anything
21:28 < facefaceface> my personal belief is that philosophical understanding is crucial to framing any idea in the proper context. Of course contexts can change, that's science. However, if we loose the ability to communicate our understanding, aren't we screwed?
21:28 < kanzure_> When did we last talk about dimensioning?
21:28  * facefaceface hides
21:28 < kanzure_> That might have been with Steve actually. He and I were doing a deconstructed identity module.
21:28 < fenn> kanzure_: no, they are very useful for predicting the future (with scientific models)
21:28 < fenn> or non-scientific models, if you're into fuzzy logic :)
21:29 < kanzure_> Yes, but the uniting and technology has to be conserved throughout for the units to be useful. I.e., relative synergies or your "phase lock" mention, but I don't have anything to add here anyway
21:29 < kanzure_> bleh, I got too metaphorical
21:29 < kanzure_> ok, back to the python
21:31 < kanzure_> huh.
21:32 < kanzure_> fenn: MeshViewer.py line 174 has def __add__ "Concatenate this object and 'other', returns it". 
21:32 < fenn> so?
21:33 < fenn> "other" is b in "a + b"
21:33 < kanzure_> looks like object concatenation?
21:42 < kanzure_> Not quite. Given an equation of a 3D shape, solving for the zeroes of the derivatives will yield points of possible interest at which union/intersection operations should be performed (and provide a reference for offsetting). Plus also an "origin" point for those shapes that don't have a nice 3D equation with useful zeroes. 
21:46 < kanzure_> "Landmark" points for additional/subtractive geometries to be specified wouldn't allow for "some point slightly to the left". Although allowing for all of those points wouldn't be useful for overall shape.
21:46 < kanzure_> Heh. It would be cool to have an interface where we could stretch a 3D monstrous shape thing made up of X pyramids, Y spheres, Z cubes, etc., such that by moving the mouse around in some N-dimensional space, the offsets of each of the shapes are changed a little bit and the overall geometry is recomputed.
21:48 < kanzure_> Ok, I guess "landmark points" for each shape, and at each stage tell the program how many possible landmarks there are to choose from to allow modifications to. 
21:49 < kanzure_> Oh. I think this means I shouldn't be doing this at the mesh level as the go-between.
22:16 < kanzure_> Steradians are new to me.
22:17 < kanzure_> I'm not sure it's steradians that I should be looking into. I need a 3D equivalent of the 'radian' for rotation of an object. I could just do three dimensional rotation with factors for each of the axis.
22:20 < fenn> steradian is basicaly angle^2
22:20 < fenn> you won't find this anywhere, oddly enough, because the SI decided that angles weren't a unit
22:33 < kanzure_> fenn: I'm not sure I understand steradians. What's the range of rotation that is provided?
22:33 < kanzure_> oops. Nevermind. Cartesian solution, that's right. Was distracted.
22:43 < kanzure-> If you have any trouble sounding condescending, find a Unix user to
22:44 < kanzure-> "If you have any trouble sounding condescending, find a Unix user to
22:44 < kanzure-> show you how it's done. (Scott Adams)
22:44 < kanzure-> hrm, weird paste.
22:46 < fenn> what an idiot! he obviously meant "find a Unix admin" - do I have to fix everything around here?
22:46 < kanzure_> Ooh. That's right. There's some matrix math involved for cartesian-based rotation.
22:46 < kanzure_> yes, and for very little pay
22:46 < fenn> yes sir.
22:47 < kanzure_> eat your rice!
22:47 < kanzure_> *vegan rice
22:47  * fenn goes back to scrubbing the floor
22:47 < fenn> *with a toothbrush
22:47 < fenn> my pallet is calling me
22:48 < kanzure_> night
22:50 < kanzure_> bah, rotation was already implemented. time for food
23:23 < kanzure_> Ah crap.
23:23 < kanzure_> http://yudkowsky.net/
23:32 < facefaceface> in the back of one of the GITS books there is an exert from an essay on futureism 
23:33 < facefaceface> the book says - its on a website called betterhumans.com - anyone know anything more about this essay?
23:33 < facefaceface> I was reminded of it by the 'three paths' thing on the above website.
23:35 < kanzure_> I write occassionally for betterhumans.com
23:35 < kanzure_> James and George requested it of me.
23:38 < facefaceface> any reference for 'the three (or five?) paths of human development'?
23:38 < facefaceface> I remember one was 'the way of the genes' 
23:40 < kanzure_> I'm afraid not.
23:41 < facefaceface> nm, I'll let you know when I find it.
23:42 < facefaceface> Just reading "Three Major Singularity Schools"
23:42 < kanzure_> Be careful there. The singularity-people like to claim that it's only about intelligence, but if you get exponential self-replication in there first, you can easily get exponential self-replication of humans or the like.
23:43 < facefaceface> self rep?
23:43 < facefaceface> just as a kind of singularity?
23:43 < kanzure_> Something like that, yeah.
23:44 < facefaceface> just out of interest, do you know about Myan time wave theory?
23:44 < kanzure_> No. What is the theory about?
23:44 < facefaceface> the end of time
23:44 < facefaceface> some kind of singularity - its sci-fi
23:44 < kanzure_> Tipler/Omega point thing?
23:44 < facefaceface> mayan
23:45 < kanzure_> Oh, yes then. 2012, we're all doomed, etc. etc.
23:45 < facefaceface> ;-)
23:45 < facefaceface> not necessarily doomed
23:45 < facefaceface> just that, at that point, the singularity will occur
23:45 < kanzure_> How nice of them to schedule it for us.
23:45 < facefaceface> pretty smart
23:57 -!- drazak is now known as draz|bread