--- Day changed Fri Nov 07 2008
00:31 < nsh> gay
00:32 < nsh> nature doesn't give subscribers access to articles prior to 1997
00:32 < nsh> :-/
00:33 < fenn> why do you say that?
00:33 < nsh> "Personal subscribers to Nature can view articles published from 1997 to the current issue."
00:33 < fenn> i think we would have heard kanzure whining if it were so
00:34 < nsh> http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v361/n6409/pdf/361212b0.pdf 
00:34 < nsh> yeah
03:03 < kanzure_> xp_prg: I was the one who linked you to celldesigner.org. Get back to work.
03:03 < kanzure_> UtopiahGHML: I haven't noticed/checked. Hod Lipson tomorrow though.
03:04 < kanzure_> fenn: I'm not a "personal subscriber". Institutional.
03:06 < kanzure_> GraphSynth compiles on linux under monodevelop.
03:06 < kanzure_> It compiled on the first try too.
03:24 < gene_> hey Kanzure want any ultrasonic transducers?
03:25 < kanzure_> Any?
03:25 < kanzure_> Uh, sure.
03:28 < gene_> yeah
03:28 < gene_> how many do you want
03:29 < gene_> I have like 20 something
03:29 < kanzure_> Where?
03:29 < gene_> at my house
03:29 < kanzure_> Your dorm?
03:29 < gene_> no
03:29 < kanzure_> I'll take some, that's fine.
03:30 < gene_> so what does it take to do transcrainial or transdermal nerve stimulation with ultrasound
03:31 < gene_> I hear you can induce feelings in hands with ultrasound
03:31 < kanzure_> 600 to 700 megahertz at 0.5 to 1 watts
03:31 < gene_> hmmm...
03:32 < gene_> what about 24khz
03:32 < kanzure_> No.
03:32 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/Ultrasound_brain.pdf
03:32 < kanzure_> Oops
03:32 < kanzure_> Excuse me.
03:32 < kanzure_> 600 to 700 kilohertz.
03:32 < kanzure_> 0.6 to 0.7 MHz. 
03:33 < gene_> dang
03:33 < kanzure_> Rather important difference.
03:33 < gene_> the transducers I have are rated for 24 khz
03:33 < gene_> http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G951
03:34 < gene_> that's the transducer I have
03:34 < kanzure_> Piezo tweets should work.
03:34 < gene_> ok
03:35 < gene_> so now
03:35 < gene_> the question is how do we set up all these piezos to stimulate a specific location in the brain
03:35 < gene_> or nerve
03:36 < kanzure_> One of the papers in the neuro dir show something about ways to calculate the applied shape of the ultrasound's influencing area.
03:36 < kanzure_> It follows some inverse square law of course, so it might just be a 3D inverse square thingy.
03:37 < gene_> you also have to take into account refraction
03:37 < kanzure_> I've been seeing numbers from 5 to 10 mm of depth penetration into the skull.
03:37 < kanzure_> Hand stimulation would be a good first step though.
03:37 < gene_> ok
03:37 < gene_> specificity?
03:38 < kanzure_> Imagine a cone.
03:38 < gene_> as in could you stimulate specific spots
03:38 < gene_> that's why you need to take index of refraction into account
03:38 < kanzure_> Sort of. You can stimulate a conal region, so the deeper regions will get less stimulation than the surface of the brain for instance.
03:38 < gene_> so you can get more specific
03:39 < kanzure_> This was only with one transducer/speakerpiezo though, with multiple trajectories you might get fancy.
03:39 < gene_> yeah
03:39 < gene_> I'm thinking a phased array
03:39 < gene_> possibly with adaptive optics or something
03:40 < kanzure_> More important is some cheap way to test whether or not you're generating your ultrasound. One method is a dead frog. But if a piezo can handle going from 10 Hz to 700 MHz, then just auditory testing can be done.
03:40 < gene_> uh
03:40 < gene_> that's fairly easy
03:40 < gene_> you use an oscilloscopte
03:41 < gene_> or a microphone
03:41 < kanzure_> Do you want to buy me an oscilloscope?
03:41 < gene_> I have one
03:41 < gene_> at my house
03:41 < kanzure_> Do you want to give me an oscilloscope?
03:41 < gene_> maybe
03:41 < gene_> the labs here have them
03:41 < kanzure_> It's not quite walk-in.
03:42 < gene_> don't they have walk in soldering labs?
03:42 < kanzure_> For the EE/CS/CE students, yeah.
03:42 < kanzure_> RAS probably has something though.
03:42 < gene_> then make friends with an EE student
03:42 < gene_> that's what I was about to say
03:43 < gene_> but we don't have anything designed yet
03:43 < kanzure_> Bullshit.
03:44 < kanzure_> Did you see all of the circuits in the directories?
03:44 < kanzure_> I guess I might not have those there, maybe it's on the ME servers.
03:46 < gene_> damn
03:46 < gene_> so all you need is a frequency generator and a transducer?
03:46 < gene_> heck
03:46 < gene_> you might be able to use a computer and some earbuds for that
03:46 < kanzure_> Maybe a few resistors and capacitors that all of the circuits include.
03:47 < kanzure_> I'm not sure LTP or RS232 can do 700 megahertz.
03:48 < gene_> So
03:48 < fenn> not even close
03:48 < gene_> I read someone that ultrasound can be used for tactile stimulation
03:48 < gene_> somewhere
03:48 < kanzure_> gene_: Ultrasound_brain.pdf
03:48 < kanzure_> It has a reference to hand-tactile-ultrasound stimulation.
03:48 < gene_> that be it
03:50 < gene_> so how would we make a tactile display?
03:50  * kanzure_ loads up his bookmarks.
03:51 < fenn> electrorheological fluid
03:51 < gene_> damn
03:51 < gene_> I've thought of that too
03:52 < kanzure_> Ed Boyden was making a tactile display for tongues.
03:52 < gene_> yeah
03:52 < gene_> but can you feel temperature with it?
03:52 < kanzure_> When he called me he mentioned some godly-high-up-there resolution that I didn't believe.
03:52 < gene_> no
03:52 < gene_> I'll believe it
03:53 < gene_> the display is a bunch of electrodes
03:53 < gene_> it has no moving parts
03:53 < kanzure_> Unless you can read 1024-dot brail with your tongue, I don't see that going anywhere fast.
03:53 < fenn> apparently it can be used as a sort of crude vision substitute
03:54 < kanzure_> Tongue?
03:54 < fenn> there are similar interfaces for face/scalp
03:54 < gene_> you don't see it going anywhere fast?
03:54 < gene_> it works great if your blind
03:54 < kanzure_> *cough*
03:54 < fenn> when i read about it they were using the interface to show balance information, for people with damaged cochlea
03:54 < gene_> no really
03:55 < gene_> well enough to avoid things and see what things are to some degree
03:55 < kanzure_> I don't recall the exact setup, and if it was just dry electrodes then even more; I do remember reading something about smaller stimulation devices for the tongue or something, but anyway
03:55 < gene_> it's just electrodes
03:56 < fenn> i'm more interested in "surround sound" "display" technology, for real-time grokking of sonar and radar data
03:57 < kanzure-_> "You're not autistic; you don't even have Asperger's. You wish you did, it would exempt you from the rules, give you freedom, absolve you of responsibility, let you date 17-yr-olds. But most important it would mean that you're not just a jerk."
03:57 < kanzure-_> Yay House.
03:57 < kanzure_> What would real-time grokking grok like?
03:58 < kanzure_> I mean, of sonar.
03:58 < gene_> syntax error
03:59 < gene_> hmmm....
03:59 < gene_> I wonder
03:59 < gene_> could one use ultrasound to mess with the proprioception sense?
03:59  * kanzure_ forgot to load up the bookmarks
03:59 < kanzure_> I have some links on this left over from Superkuh.
04:03 < kanzure-_> http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~jmp/neurocc/theme3.html
04:03 < kanzure-_> http://www.visualprosthesis.com/sensub.htm
04:03 < kanzure-_> http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:IWehRGzP9kkJ:www.physiology.wisc.edu/neuro524/somatosensory02.htm+dermatome+maps+fine+touch&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
04:03 < kanzure-_> http://www2.umdnj.edu/~paneuweb/spincrd.htm
04:03 < kanzure-_> http://www.lclark.edu/~reiness/neurobiology/Lectures/lecture18.htm
04:03 < kanzure-_> http://www.google.com/search?q=Meissner+corpuscle+density+map&sourceid=opera&num=50&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
04:03 < kanzure-_> http://www.google.com/search?num=50&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=nerve+growth+density+in+fatty+tissues&btnG=Search
04:03 < kanzure-_> http://www.google.com/search?num=50&hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=Penfield+map+sensory+cortex&btnG=Search
04:03 < kanzure-_> http://www.google.com/search?num=50&hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=Penfield+map+sensory+cortex+homunculus&btnG=Search
04:04 < kanzure-_> http://www.google.com/search?num=50&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=skin+touch+%22receptor+field%22+size+variations&btnG=Search
04:04 < kanzure-_> http://www.google.com/search?q=tactile+map+of+the+brain+sensory+cortex&sourceid=opera&num=50&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
04:04 < kanzure-_> http://www.google.com/search?q=tactile+resolution+body+parts&sourceid=opera&num=50&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
04:04 < kanzure-_> http://www.google.com/search?num=50&hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=tactile+resolution+dermatome&btnG=Search
04:04 < kanzure-_> http://www.google.com/search?num=50&hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=tactile+resolution+with+increasing+skin+area+and+static+brain+volume&btnG=Search
04:04 < kanzure-_> http://www.google.com/search?num=50&hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=tactile+skin+finger+pad+drug+increase&btnG=Search
04:05 < kanzure-_> http://www.biomedical-engineering-online.com/content/2/1/6
04:07 < kanzure-_> http://www.zelscope.com/features.html 10 Hz to 20 kHz + software for windows.
04:12 < nsh-> YAYLINKS
04:12 < kanzure_> Rawr
04:14 < kanzure_> nsh-: How's the foot?
04:14 < nsh-> mostly harmless
04:14 < nsh-> back to the lab tomorrow
04:14 < nsh-> sick leave ends
04:14 < nsh-> i say tomorrow
04:14 < nsh-> i mean today
04:14 < nsh-> it's 6:14am
04:17 < kanzure_> Michel's asking me for some information on open source space developments
04:17 < kanzure_> Blargh. Time for another linkdump?
04:25 < fenn> you should write a script that filters out 404's from your linkdumps
04:26 < kanzure_> Huh, I should write a bot to linkdump to.
04:31 < kanzure-_> http://heybryan.org/bookmarks/bookmarks-old2//Space/Spacecraft%20design/index.html#32.10
04:46 < ybit> it seems my joke went nowhere
04:46 < ybit> [22:40] <ybit> fenn, i guess its just me and you in a room, all alone... together
04:46 < ybit> [22:40] <ybit> don't even think about it ;)
04:47 < ybit> when it seems i may have been the only one in this room or not
04:47  * ybit pats himself on the back
04:47 < kanzure_> You and fenn were the only ones that split.
04:48 < ybit> oh
04:49 < ybit> openmoney.org -- not new, just wanting comments from anyone who has thought about it.
04:49 < kanzure_> Rawr money
04:49 < ybit> openmoney.info
04:50 < gene_> sudo apt get money?
04:50 < kanzure_> while 1 sudo apt get money <-- your system makes no sense.
04:50 < kanzure_> Just apt-get everything that you need, why do money?
04:51 < gene_> sudo apt get galaxy
04:51 < kanzure_> I'd rather have the filaments.
04:51 < gene_> heh
04:52 < gene_> what about cosmic strings
04:52 < gene_> those are fun too
04:52 < kanzure_> Meh.
04:52 < kanzure_> Saw one of those in Benford's books once.
04:52 < gene_> some quarkonium would be fun to
04:52 < ybit> i'm guessing it makes sense sense while the majority of machines are open until such a thing as drexler's molecular assembler causes zero-point competition
04:52 < gene_> it's a PERFECT mirror
04:53 < kanzure_> ybit: What?
04:53 < kanzure_> ybit: majority of machines are open ? huh?
04:53 < nsh-> make sense?
04:54 < ybit> until we can live self-sufficiently, such a currency makes sense
04:54 < kanzure_> No it doesn't.
04:54 < kanzure_> Did you see my line about tenure the other day?
04:54 < ybit> such an infrastructure allowing various currencies*... since open money isn't a currency according to michael linton
04:55 < ybit> kanzure_, nope
04:55 < gene_> uh
04:55 < kanzure_> ybit: The financial infrastructure can be mimiced pretty effortlessly, but that's another topic.
04:55 < ybit> which financial infrastructure?
04:55 < kanzure_> ybit: I was talking about the idea of growing meat in tanks with a defined rate and feeding capacity to give people "tenure" for living.
04:56 < gene_> on meat growing
04:56 < kanzure_> ybit: Financial exchange protocols, RSS for stock quote updates, I mean this stuff isn't complex.
04:56 < gene_> how do you feed teh meats
04:56 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Meat_on_a_stick has my notes, gene_ 
04:56 < ybit> kanzure_ that's not what open money is
04:56 < kanzure_> I haven't looked at it in a few months.
04:57 < gene_> artificial stomach
04:57 < kanzure_> ybit: I know, you're giong to say wuffles or tuffles or something else
04:57 < kanzure_> gene_: No, I wasn't thinking of an immune system or digestive system.
04:57 < kanzure_> It would have been straight up with minimal separation processes on the inputs.
04:57 < gene_> or more importantly how do you get a circulatory system up and running?
04:57 < kanzure_> Thin sheets.
04:58 < ybit> see this page for what open money can do: http://openmoney.info/phronesis/index.html
04:58 < gene_> thin sheets of meat don't taste so well
04:58 < kanzure_> What the hell do I care?
04:58 < ybit> who is that directed to?
04:59 < kanzure_> taste.
04:59 < gene_> maybe you could process it into something like chicken nuggets
04:59 < gene_> or burgers
04:59 < kanzure_> If you require the tongue you're doing it wrong.
04:59 < kanzure_> IVF would be more interesting.
05:00 < kanzure_> Baby formulas are well defined.
05:00 < gene_> you know
05:00 < ybit> i don't know many people willing to trade 5 chicken wings for a new laptop
05:00 < kanzure_> ybit: Trade?
05:00 < ybit> i need details
05:00 < kanzure_> Didn't I beat the trade crap into you a few weeks ago? heh'
05:01 < kanzure_> *out of you
05:01 < ybit> :P
05:01 < gene_>  this might be feasible, did you hear what the russians did with a bioreactor?
05:01 < kanzure_> That's not very descriptive, gene_ .
05:02 < gene_> in soviet russia, they built a bioreactor that grew monkey kidney cells on plastic beads
05:02 < gene_> then they infected them with smallpox
05:02 < gene_> and made tonnages of pure smallpox
05:02 < gene_> tonnages
05:02 < gene_> of smallpox
05:05 < gene_> now if they had only made something more useful
05:05 < kanzure_> Tissue cultures can be easily infected, so it requires some relatively sterile environments.
05:05 < fenn> kanzure_: your obsessions with growing meat in tanks is quite amusing to a vegan :)
05:05 < kanzure_> There's some good tutorials on the internet for setting up a myco lab on your own though.
05:05 < gene_> yeah
05:06 < gene_> they infected them on purpose
05:06 < kanzure_> fenn: good luck with your surface area woes
05:06 < kanzure_> gene_: No, that's not what I'm talking about.
05:06 < fenn> fungus is much easier to grow, more efficient, can feed on a much wider variety of substrates
05:06 < kanzure_> gene_: Tissue cultures, even in labs, are esy to knock dead because of viral and bacterial infections, even here at UT.
05:06 < fenn> and it tastes better..
05:07 < kanzure_> Students make a small mistake and <poof> a ring develops around the culture.
05:07 < gene_> orly?
05:07 < kanzure_> fenn: Fungus tastes better?
05:07 < gene_> you might be a bit biased thre
05:07  * fenn shrugs
05:07 < kanzure_> fenn: The plants or the fungus?
05:07 < fenn> i've never had tissuefurkey
05:08 < fenn> sorry that was an obscure referenec
05:08 < kanzure_> Anyway, with the whole vegan thing, the surface area issue seems to be the biggest problem for growing greens
05:08 < fenn> algae grows pretty dense dont you think?
05:08 < kanzure_> High density myocytes woul--
05:08 < kanzure_> well, yes.
05:09 < kanzure_> But it also has the surface area problem unless you want to stream fiber optic lines into it or something. Hrm.
05:09 < fenn> i mean you dont have to use direct sunlight any more than you'd put your tissue culture out to pasture
05:09 < fenn> red LED's work just fine
05:09 < gene_> nuclear power
05:09 < fenn> though currently sodium vapor lamps are the highest efficiency lighting method
05:10 < fenn> or was it fluorescent? hmm
05:10 < gene_> what about sulfur lamps?
05:10 < gene_> aren't those more efficient?
05:10 < fenn> ah that's interesting, did they get past the vapor ware stage? haha
05:10 < gene_> yeah
05:11 < gene_> they did
05:11 < gene_> it's just that no one needs to buy light in bulk
05:11 < fenn> oh well, there is this huge nuclear furnace blazing overhead after all
05:11 < fenn> might as well use it
05:12 < kanzure_> Linkdump to orbital algae farms
05:12 < gene_> heh
05:12 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Orbital_algae_farms
05:12 < kanzure_> or something
05:12 < gene_> they were talking about that in the 50s
05:12 < fenn> kanzure_: i hope you've taken into account the fact that a gallon of gasoline in orbit contains more kinetic energy than chemical energy
05:13 < kanzure_> Based off of gas laws?
05:13 < fenn> earth orbital mechanics
05:13 < kanzure_> And the nutritional supply problem still hasn't been entirely solved, even if you have biomining of moonrock/asteroid-rock.
05:13 < gene_> http://davidszondy.com/future/farm/space_farm.htm
05:13 < kanzure_> fenn: Orbital motion?
05:13 < fenn> it's traveling at mach 30
05:14 < fenn> KE = 0.5mv^2
05:14 < kanzure_> Did I say orbital? 
05:14 < kanzure_> But anyway. Nutrition/inputs.
05:14 < fenn> "orbital algae farms" made me think it was orbital, but whatever
05:14 < gene_> inputs to what>
05:14 < kanzure_> Nutritional inputs to the farming. 
05:15 < kanzure_> Algae and bacterium do not grow in a vacuum :)
05:17 < gene_> farming what?
05:17 < kanzure_> ..
05:17 < gene_> hmmm...
05:18  * fenn mumbles something about sterling engines and hydrolysis
05:18 < gene_> bacteria can grow in a vacuum
05:18 < kanzure_> That's not what I mean.
05:18 < kanzure_> I refer to vacuums in the sense of contexts.
05:19 < kanzure_> Particularly because I was talking about nutrition.
05:19 < gene_> ok
05:19 < gene_> I am too confused right now bye
05:20 < fenn> hmm or that AMETEC no-moving-parts thermal->electricity conversion would work well in orbit
05:21 < fenn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alkali-metal_thermal_to_electric_converter
05:22 < kanzure_> Argh. Where'd my copy of Sutton go?
05:22 < kanzure_> Rocketry book.
05:31 < gene_> http://davidszondy.com/future/Living/synthetic_food.htm
05:31 < gene_> why even grow meat?
05:32 < kanzure_> Were you not listening to fenn?
05:32 < kanzure_> or me for that matter re: IVF I guess, but that was a different context
05:36 < gene_> dang
05:36 < gene_> http://davidszondy.com/future/Living/in_vitrio.htm
06:47 < gene_> guess what?
06:47 < gene_> http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601124&sid=a.FUkzJc0iWw&refer=home
06:48 < gene_> ep might have just got owned
07:08 < fenn> duh.. this is why you run controls. not news
07:09 < fenn> glass affects proteins also, that's why you rinse it with BSA solution before doing anything with low concentrations
12:37 < kanzure_> http://asc2008.com/ "Transformational Army Science Conference"
12:37 < kanzure_> They're including Kurzweil? wtf?
12:38  * kanzure_ would like to be "Dr. John Parmentola"
12:42 < kanzure_> Huh. Albus is included in the lineup. He's still alive? Why isn't he replying to my emails?
12:43 < kanzure_> "Toward Three Dimensional Circuits Formed by Molten-alloy Driven Self-Assembly"
12:47 < kanzure_> "Development of a portable DNA sensor system" - J. J. Sumner, P. Freudenthal @ Nanex, Meinhart, Plaxco, some people at Santa Barbara, ..
13:34 < UtopiahGHML> I know it's like that but still seing things like ASC2008 written down always give me a shiver...
13:38 < UtopiahGHML> kanzure_: you think Kurzweil shouldn't go there?
15:33 < UtopiahGHML> If you like animes, pretty straight yet effective recommendation engine : http://anime.antialiased.net/
15:38 < bkero> :/  Lain and Eva aren't in the top rated first page
15:38 < fenn> UtopiahGHML: gits-sac isn't a 10 :(
15:40 < bkero> It seemed to confirm what I originally suspected--I hate most anime.
15:40 < bkero> Death Note was pretty good, Bebop was fucking excellent.  Gurren Laggan?  Er, no.
16:16 < UtopiahGHML> bkero / fenn : I guess being able to select a subset of the population could help but I don't see this option
16:18 < fenn> you could map the users onto an x-y plane and then circle a group
16:18 < fenn> i wonder how they make the comparison/prediction
16:20 < fenn> oh, btw what i meant was that gits-sac didnt deserve a 10 (i was looking at your ratings)
16:21 < UtopiahGHML> care for a little explanation or prefer to stick with un-argumentrary arbitrary judgement? ;)
16:21 < fenn> well i just felt like it didn't really go anywhere
16:25 < UtopiahGHML> I think I like GITS generally because it provide some aesthetic affordances to things that interest me a lot (GUI, HUD, AI, IA, Collaborative Env., virtual reality, biotech, HMI, ...) so that might create a bias regarding the storyline itself.
16:30 < bkero> I'm a Lain/Eva person myself. :)
16:31 < UtopiahGHML> we should code an anime somewhow :P
16:34 < fenn> lolcode
16:34 < UtopiahGHML> yes, generate it
16:34 < fenn> desu desu desu
16:35 < UtopiahGHML> the game would be to not be able to edit it, a bit like in the spirit of demos
16:35 < fenn> yes, algorithmically generated
16:35 < fenn> like "AARON" i think it was, the "AI painter"
16:36 < bkero> Have you guys seen 'love'?
16:36 < bkero> It's a procedurally generated landscape.  The results are amazing.
16:36 < bkero> Sadly, the shithead won't opensource it.
16:36 < UtopiahGHML> bkero: not "love" particularly but it's a common technique so I can imagine the result
16:36 < UtopiahGHML> but yes, pretty impressive results
16:37 < bkero> UtopiahGHML: http://kotaku.com/360715/love-is-a-procedurally+generated-mmo 
16:37 < ppk> howdy
16:38 < ppk> any of you guys know how many sequential base pairs endy is aiming for, in the short term, in 'DNA printers'?
16:39 < fenn> UtopiahGHML: what is he trying to do?
16:39 < fenn> er, bkero 
16:39  * fenn sulks
16:39 < fenn> i mean, he's not selling it, he's not open sourcing it, so WTF
16:39 < bkero> I dunno
16:40 < bkero> Jerking himself off?
16:40 < fenn> maybe he should write a paper and submit to siggraph :)
16:41 < bkero> Maybe I should to to his house and threaten to kill his dog if he doesn't open source it.
16:41 < fenn> what i dont understand is why open source MMO-ish stuff sucks so bad
16:42 < UtopiahGHML> bkero: can't you hack his universe from the inside?
16:42 < UtopiahGHML> (a la Hack//SIGN maybe ;)
16:43 < bkero> Dunno, I stopped watching that show after an episode and a half. :P
16:43 < UtopiahGHML> well, unfortunately like most animes out of 24 episodes 4 max. carry the real core, the idea
16:43 < UtopiahGHML> the rest is... I dunno... waiting :/
16:44 < fenn> yeah 26 episodes, watch 1, 25, 26
16:44 < UtopiahGHML> around that yep :)
16:44 < bkero> Sounds silly
16:44 < UtopiahGHML> it's like a super slow warmup :|
16:44 < UtopiahGHML> "Alright now, stop the introduction, give me content, we are at episode 10!" :(
16:45 < bkero> It's Reboot + a level 1 D&D game
16:45 < bkero> "aventure"
16:45 < bkero> *adventure
16:45 < fenn> "love"?
16:45 < ppk> anybody have that synthetic biology screw standardization spiel handy?
16:45 < ppk> Such is a shitload of S'
16:46 < fenn> screw standardization? i hope you refer to making an analogy with bolt thread standardization
16:46 < ppk> yeah
16:46 < fenn> ah. in that case i have no idea
16:47 < fenn> it's more like electronic components than nuts and bolts
16:47 < ppk> ./whine, i need to be a synthetic biology apologist
16:47 < ppk> true, but I think the analogy is good
16:48 < ppk> for demonstration purposes
16:52 < UtopiahGHML> when do you think we'll have API to administrations? like an API to build companies, manage the paperwork thanks to code calls
16:53 < ppk> hm, what's the difference between modularity and standardization
16:56 < fenn> standardization means independent groups can work on different versions of the same thing and know they will work together
16:56 < fenn> modularity just means it can be broken into different pieces fairly easily
16:56 < ppk> cool, thanks
16:57 < fenn> so, HTML is standard, and firefox is modular (sorta)
16:58 < fenn> and HTML/CSS is modular and standard
17:06 < fenn> bkero: from his bloggish (news.quelsolaar.com) it sounds like he has low self esteem/doesnt want to herd cats, and that's why he's not open sourcing it
17:16 < bkero> That's a pretty lame excuse.
17:19 < fenn> http://media.rockpapershotgun.com/eskil.flv  <- preview video of 'love'
17:19 < fenn> this is kinda what i wanted to do with "Smirf"
17:20 < fenn> (not that anyone cares)
17:22 < fenn> i always wanted a whole world like a MUD to run around in with the characters from "bushido blade" from playstation.. no hitpoints or any of that crap, if you chop someone's neck with a sword they die
17:23 < fenn> screenshots don't really do bushido blade justice
17:35 < bkero> lol
17:52 < fenn> weird. the memes are stirring: http://news.quelsolaar.com/##post27
17:57 < bkero> fenn: Will you talk to this asshole and tell him to open it?
17:58 < fenn> haha what should i say?
17:58 < bkero> Uh
17:59 < bkero> Give us your code, you don't have to herd cats
17:59 < bkero> We'll establish a project for it, you can be grand poobah
18:00 < fenn> i really think it's more valuable as a VR landscape than as a "game"
18:00 < fenn> to relieve the dreariness of SL and clones
18:04 < UtopiahGHML> a while ago (several years) there was a website where you could share your list of favorite movies, it was also able to find similar lists from other people, anybody remembers it?
18:05 < UtopiahGHML> maybe it doesn't exist anymore but Id like to try eventually using web.archive.org
18:05 < UtopiahGHML> (it was a big and simple website so I guess it has been archived)
18:06 < bkero> I wouldn't really make a game out of it
18:06 < bkero> Well,
18:07 < bkero> I'd just use it to walk around and see what it makes
18:08 < fenn> you could use the game grammar to put together artifacts from SKDB parts
18:09 < fenn> i suppose any game engine could do that, but procedurally generating an entire industrial ecology based on the landscape would be sweet
18:11 < UtopiahGHML> (instead of some crapy spore)
18:15 < bkero> Run a giant game of life on it. :P
18:15 < fenn> well spore is just a game, and as such it has a sort of doctor-seuss magical aspect to it
18:15 < fenn> and there is no multiplayer spore
18:16 < bkero> Er, there is.
18:16 < UtopiahGHML> bkero: have you seen "The 13th Floor"?
18:16 < fenn> much of the benefit would be that you could demonstrate your project to others in real time
18:17 < fenn> bkero: not just content sharing. more like SL or a MUD
18:17 < bkero> Is Spore multiplayer? An MMORPG?
18:17 < bkero> The short answer: No. Will Wright describes Spore's on-line feature as Asyncronous Sharing. Spore is unique in that while it has multiplayer elements involved there will be no direct live contact with other players. Players' created content gets saved to a master server and will be downloaded by the client-software of other players. In this way, a player will interact with the content created by another player in a non-intrusive manner. 
18:17 < bkero> Yea
18:17 < fenn> that's not multiplayer
18:17 < bkero> fenn: chizu and a couple others are working on a distributed MUD that interacts with IRC
18:17 < bkero> UtopiahGHML: I might have, I don't remember.
18:17 < fenn> i'd wager you couldnt tell the difference between player generated content and some random neural net
18:17 < bkero> Wait, I was thinking of 4 Rooms
18:17 < xp_prg> hi all!
18:18 < fenn> 4 rooms?
18:18 < bkero> fenn: I can if all the player generated content is eight different kinds of goatse, each with a slightly browner shade of asshole.
18:18 < xp_prg> Klowner here?
18:18 -!- Irssi: #hplusroadmap: Total of 18 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 18 normal]
18:18 < xp_prg> I have a special thankyou to suggest
18:18 < xp_prg> well to give
18:19 < xp_prg> oh wait wrong channel
18:19 < fenn> bkero: markov models..
18:19 < bkero> fenn: Talk to mister low self esteem and tell him we want his baby
18:19 < fenn> hmm i have a poor record of getting people to open source their projects (0/4 or so)
18:19 < xp_prg> ppk you here?!
18:19 < bkero> fenn: Markov chains are amusing.  My friend lotyrin made one, we went in #neuroscience and claimed it passed a turing test.
18:19 < fenn> but i will tell him about my dreams and see what he does
18:20 < bkero> fenn: Start a dialog and tell him the most senior system administrator for the biggest open source lab in the world is interested in his project. :P
18:20 < fenn> uh. i wont tell him that.
18:20 < bkero> Aw
18:21 < fenn> perhaps cleverly embellish so "the biggest open source lab in the world is interested"
18:21 < bkero> How's that embellishing?
18:21 < fenn> it implies that OSUOSL has a coherent agenda :)
18:21 < bkero> oh
18:22 < bkero> lol, he's probably not going to get hosted, we'll probably point him to sourceforge
18:22 < bkero> (which would get him hosted with us anyway)
18:22 < fenn> "not going to get hosted"?
18:22  * bkero indirectly hosts sourceforge
18:22 < fenn> does foo.osuosl.org require special holy penguin pee?
18:22 < kanzure_-> Hod Lipson presentation was good
18:23 < kanzure_-> Symbolic regression analysis of various data sets. He's turning more to gait/movement stuffs.
18:23 < kanzure_-> Hidden dynamical nonlinear systems approximation stuff too. (re: the Markov model mention above)
18:23 < bkero> foo.osuosl.org just requires emailing support@osuosl.org, telling them what your project is, and why you don't fit on sourceforge.
18:23 < xp_prg> kanzure_- want to hear what I did last night man?
18:24 < kanzure_-> bkero: I thought Death Note was good as well.
18:24 < fenn> bkero: sourceforge sucks balls, is that a good enough reason?
18:24 < xp_prg> kanzure_- have you seen cell designer?
18:24 < xp_prg> just curious, do you like that?
18:24 < bkero> fenn: Yea, it does, heh.  That's not our fault though.
18:24 < kanzure_-> re: algorithmically generated anime; did anyone see my algorithmic story generator from 2006?
18:24 < fenn> it's money sucking parasites fault most likely
18:25 < bkero> kanzure_-: Have you seen Maddox's Tom Clancy story generator from 2006?
18:25 < fenn> so, i'm googling around, and "symbolic regression analysis" still doesnt mean anything to me
18:25 < kanzure_-> UtopiahGHML: APIs for building companies sort of already exists. The problem is that nobody sees value in being able to randomly generate databases for HR departments or whatever.
18:26 < kanzure_-> fenn: Re: games from SKDB stuff. Paul Fernhout wants to make something like that at the moment for Mars simulators.
18:27 < kanzure_-> I was also posting on allegro.cc about that in 2006 or 2007 re: grammars for objects in my MMORPG work.
18:27 < fenn> yeah i'm sure it's not just me
18:27 < kanzure_-> So, I was trying to figure out how to solve the combinatorial problems of having to code all of the interactions between all of the thousands of objects, without making a stupid restricted storyline. I was using stuff like nethack dungeon generators and the story generator stuff, but of course it gets hard making all of these N! interactions
18:28 < xp_prg> kanzure_- dude am I invisible?
18:28 < fenn> grammar based generation doesn' need to deal with N! interactions though?
18:29 < fenn> and, you can do it in real time, so when you punch old peasant lady, she runs bawling to Lord Modred or whatever
18:29 < fenn> you dont have to precalculate every possible outcome
18:30 < fenn> old peasant lady doesnt necessarily know about hobgoblin #4236 in the enchanted forest on the other side of the world
18:31 < fenn> but Lord Modred interacts with the locals and information has a high probability of reaching her
18:32 < fenn> goo
18:41 < kanzure_-> xp_prg: I already told you that I was the one who told you about cell designer.
18:41  * kanzure_- puts ODE validator/solvers back on to his todo list.
18:41 < kanzure_-> fenn: It's like regression/fitting except you have a bag of units (sin, cos, +, -) and then you generate something that matches your experimental data points.
18:42 < kanzure_-> fenn: n! is still a problem, yes, of course. 
18:43 < kanzure_-> "problem"
18:43 < fenn> so just statistical regression with different basis functions
18:43 < fenn> why is n! still a problem?
18:43 < kanzure_-> I quoted problem so suggest that we should just get over it
18:44 < kanzure_-> going over the graphs so many times just makes for lots of computational operations
18:44 < fenn> modred doesnt interact with every person in the world, only those in the vicinity, probably divided up with quadtrees somehow
18:44 < fenn> so it's more like n(log n)
18:45 < fenn> i can never figure out those O thingies
18:45 < kanzure_-> That's not quite what I was talking about. When you're generating the possibilities for a solution to a black box diagram set, I mean.
18:45 < fenn> same thing, dont worry about finding the global optimum
18:45 < kanzure_-> In a game-simulator-thingy, I was talking about all of the different ways that objects should be able ot interact with each other.
18:45 < kanzure_-> "Throw box at peasant"
18:45 < kanzure_-> "ERROR: peasant doesn't recognize box"
18:45 < kanzure_-> or "ERROR: box.throw() or whatever doesn't know how to deal with peasant"
18:45 < fenn> that's why you have class inheritance :(
18:46 < fenn> worst case scenario is that peasant is an object an the box bounces off
18:47 < fenn> methods should be designed for the most abstract/generic interface so you get the most use out of them
18:47 < kanzure_-> No argument there.
18:47 < kanzure_-> So the lab here kind of has a grounding problem of its own. Hod prints out his little robots and does physical tests to see if he can get 'better and better movement'. But here we're not quite looking for movement, or "adaptability" really.
18:48 < fenn> so, back to automated design, if you divide up the possibility space into quadtrees sufficiently randomly, you can get a fairly global optimum, and then you can refine the design by dividing up the tree by different parameters
18:49 < fenn> i guess that's like simulated annealing sorta
18:49 < kanzure_-> right
18:49 < kanzure_-> But right now it's kind of like design-in-a-vacuum. 
18:49 < fenn> because all we have is vaporware and no content? :)
18:49 < kanzure_-> No, because the question is what to measure results by.
18:50 < fenn> oh. yeah, defining requirements is always hard
18:50 < kanzure_-> If we focus too much on one type of optimization problem, that's not quite as general enough. Like cone optimization for rockets.
18:50 < kanzure_-> But on the other hand, I'm the other extreme or something :p
18:50 < fenn> i'll leave that up to the users :)
18:50 < xp_prg> kanzure_- why don't like cell designer, why doesn't it fulfill your need to create sbml files just curious?
18:52 < kanzure_-> What's so hard about finishing your work, xp_prg ?
18:52 < kanzure_-> Argh.
18:52 < xp_prg> nothing, I was just curious is all
18:52 < xp_prg> want to hear what I did yesterday real quick?
18:53 < kanzure_-> Stop asking to ask.
18:53 < kanzure_-> I don't have time to waste like this. Just say it.
18:53 < xp_prg> dude I took the bbf files and converted them into a big BioBricks actionscript class!
18:53 < kanzure_-> fenn: Requirements have to be defined in a way that both the user understands as well as the program that goes off and does the calculations.
18:53 < kanzure_-> So there has to be some sort of shared stuff.
18:54 < xp_prg> now I can get at biobrick info easily and quickly!
18:54 < kanzure_-> Who cares?
18:54 < kanzure_-> Get your work done ..
18:54 < xp_prg> ok :>
18:54 < kanzure_-> (and post the code instead of talking about it)
18:55 < xp_prg> just curious why don't you like cell designer for your need though?
19:00 < UtopiahGHML> how long before the media try to brag about finding a gene of the Internet?
19:00 < UtopiahGHML> "So you have XL8790 thus your are tech-savy."
19:01 < UtopiahGHML> (would be more like "NE1337" I guess)
19:01 < fenn> rs14142136: aspie +5 points
19:03 < fenn> i wish SL werent so gay..
19:04 < UtopiahGHML> SecondLife?
19:04 < fenn> ya
19:04 < UtopiahGHML> is there a commandline client?
19:04 < fenn> no
19:04 < UtopiahGHML> can you make an IRC bot walker?
19:04 < fenn> yeah
19:04 < UtopiahGHML> would that make a kind of commandline client?
19:05 < fenn> uh, not really
19:05 < fenn> it would suffer the same fate as surfraw
19:05 < fenn> but by "gay" i meant the culture
19:06 < UtopiahGHML> have you tried Croquet?
19:06 < fenn> not yet
19:06 < UtopiahGHML> I think the culture might be slightly more interesting there.
19:06 < fenn> i didnt realize there was a community yet
19:10 < UtopiahGHML> well Id be curious to you have your opinion on it
19:10 < UtopiahGHML> gotta go for now, bbye
21:04 < fenn> bkero: email sent to eskil steenberg..
21:05  * fenn prepares for rejection.. sigh
21:05 < UtopiahGHML> why
21:05 < fenn> story of my life
21:05 < willPow3r> self-fulfilling prophecy
21:05 < UtopiahGHML> rejetion is the story of your life? tough
21:06 < fenn> tell me if you have any better ideas
21:06 < willPow3r> welcome rejection as a form of constructive criticism and an opportunity for self-betterment?
21:06 < fenn> usually i get the "ignore" treatment
21:07 < willPow3r> so its not outright rejection then
21:07 < fenn> well, responding to me would be a sort of implicit validation of my worth as a person
21:08 < fenn> s/validation/acknowledgement/
21:09 < willPow3r> so you pretty much have to follow up, then get rejected
21:09 < UtopiahGHML> what about sending menacs?
21:09 < UtopiahGHML> menaces
21:10 < UtopiahGHML> kanzure_- / kanzure_ : regarding social scalability you should study the politicians model, they are IMHO the experts in that art.
21:11 < UtopiahGHML> btw http://cdn1.ustream.tv/swf/4/viewer.45.swf?cid=317016 kickass
23:23 < kanzure_> xp_prg: I did not say I did not like the cell designer.
23:25 < kanzure_> Just got back from a nitrogen-CNT talk.
23:25 < kanzure_> Meh.
23:28 < kanzure_> fenn: What are mechanical engineering departments doing with labs anyway? 
23:28 < kanzure_> Half of them look like they service businesses.
23:29 < kanzure_> The other half do routine measurements on materials.
23:37 < xp_prg> kanzure_ but why isn't cell designer adequate for your needs?
23:38 < UtopiahGHML> (for the generated Anima, maye Vocaloid could be used, I just discovered it, surprising)
23:44 < kanzure_> I have many complaints about celldesigner. It's java, for one. That kind of sucks. It's all GUI based, that also kind of sucks. fenn complained about the license at one point. Meh. Just finish the script. You're so close.
23:45 < xp_prg> ok just curious
23:58 < gene_> http://www.physorg.com/news145256350.html
23:58 < gene_> HAHAHAHAHA
23:59 < gene_> worst powered exoskeleton ever