--- Day changed Mon Nov 10 2008
00:03 < gene_> why not make a nixon shooter?
00:04 < kanzure_> What is a nixon shooter?
00:04 < gene_> it shoots nixons
00:04 < gene_> President Nixons
00:04 < gene_> in rapid succession
00:04 < gene_> anyway
00:04 < gene_> with the current cartridge setup
00:04 < gene_> there is the possibility of diversity of ammunition
00:09 < gene_> hmmm... a geneva mechanism might do the trick on the cartridge advancer
01:01 < kanzure_> There are still emails coming in of people wanting to sign up for Mars colonization via OpenVirgle.
01:12 < bkero> Heh
01:16 < kanzure_> Maybe we should launch them just for laughs.
01:17 < kanzure_>  Kind of like The Elevator to Nowhere in The Simpsons.
02:28 < kanzure_> Aha. Best iphone commercial ever. It was advertizing the 'Shazam app', which identifies audio input in an mp3 library over the net and gives you the meta tag information.
02:30 < bkero> Shazam is pretty nice
02:58 < fenn> there's no reason there couldnt be a p2p shazam
02:59 < fenn> more often though my problem is that the song is stuck in my head and i cant figure out where it's from
03:13 < kanzure_> I get that with 2 second chunks of music.
03:14 < kanzure_> It's pretty cool when I can locate it somewhere within the 150 GB of music.
04:18 < xp_prg> ok kanzure, I am getting very close
04:18 < xp_prg> I am sending you the latest
04:19 < xp_prg> ok sent it!
04:32 < wrldpc> http://gizmodo.com/5080619/anti+dealzmodo-the-6200-kindle-book
04:53 < xp_prg> kanzure_ you here?
06:40 < gene_> so here's my idea on the cartridge advancer
06:41 < gene_> we use a geneva mechanism to drive rack and pinion
06:41 < gene_> with the rack being the cartridge
06:42 < gene_> I am however
06:43 < gene_> getting a weird number on the pitch diameter needed for the pinion
07:04 < ybit> what's with the response from eric on o-m: "...seeking their margin at the 'front end' rather than the 'back end'... There is a great deal untapped"
07:05 < ybit> so much more i could pull out of context, i will spare you all 
07:08 < ybit> hmm, email messages from religious people are a little odd to me. "surgery on the ear was a success! ...re:"all praise his! [his ear??]... re[from a straight guy to another straight guy]: i am thinking of you"
07:30 < ybit> weeell, about time I hit the 'ol dusty trail
09:22 < kanzure_> Hello EricWheelman.
09:22 < EricWheelman> hi
09:22 < EricWheelman> that was quick :)
09:23 < kanzure_> I woke up 2 minutes ago. Lucky randomass shot in the dark.
09:23 < EricWheelman> ha
09:23 < EricWheelman> I just woke up :)
09:23 < EricWheelman> but it's 11:20 am
09:23 < EricWheelman> I can't get the MOTD to show
09:24 < kanzure_> So, you're not showing up in my email searches. You're new to us?
09:24 < kanzure_> "New Now Know How" sounds a familiar chant of .. someone .. I know.
09:24 < EricWheelman> Well yeah, I emailed you about infrared.. that's my real name.
09:25 < kanzure_> Excellent.
09:27 < EricWheelman> Actually I came here already because I just realized that the LILFU study actually had used ex vivo skulls. I thought they had no idea if it could actually go through the skull. And thinking it's such low-power, I just though it might be possible that it might be almost as easy to build as the infrared stimulator.
09:27 < kanzure_> Btw, the motd has recently been changed. It used to be this giant linkdump to god near everything that goes on in here.
09:28 < kanzure_> Right. There's somebody (maradydd) in #diybio who offered me a few ideas on schematics if I can dig up the logs around here shortly. Basically it seems that with a piezo stolen from a cell phone and a few well placed capacitors there's something that an be cooked up. What worries me is that my lack of electronics knowledge has told me to go off and scower the net, but I only find the stupid 20 kHz circuits. Maybe I'll find a variable frequency circ
09:29 < kanzure_> that /doesn't/ involve a function synthesizer.
09:29 < EricWheelman> why does it have to be variable?
09:30 < kanzure_> A few reasons. First, because I suck with circuits so far. Secondly it would be nice to have audio feedback, if it would go from somewhere in the range of human hearing up to 600 to 700 kHz. That would be nice. (Also, insert ref here about dog whistle version.)
09:31 < EricWheelman> I fail to still understand... I mean, my infrared doesn't have no audio feedback that it's working, although I admit that I can see the light turning on :)
09:32 < kanzure_> Uh, how have you confirmed functionality?
09:32 < kanzure_> Other than light-turn-on?
09:33 < EricWheelman> Well, right : ) didn't think too far. Yeah I was not the first one who tried it and he had said that it takes up to a month to really feel it and so I waited.
09:33 < kanzure_> And?
09:34 < EricWheelman> And it worked. Actually in a week for me.
09:34 < UtopiahGHML> experimental protocol?
09:34 < EricWheelman> ?
09:34 < kanzure_> What does "work" mean though?
09:34 < UtopiahGHML> yes
09:34 < UtopiahGHML> if it seems like an improvement to you it's good
09:35 < UtopiahGHML> but it can result from any form of bias or placebo effect hence my question on experimental protocol to furnish data from an experiene others can reproduce.
09:35 < kanzure_> See, this is why I would like the variable frequency version of the ultrasound circuit. It would allow some various experimental protocols with either dead animals found in your backyard/swamp-by-the-lake, etc.
09:35 < UtopiahGHML> (hi kanzure_ and EricWheelman , sorry for my direct intrusion in the conversation ;)
09:35 < kanzure_> I've read that frog legs work well here.
09:35 < EricWheelman> I've used it on a cat.
09:35 < kanzure_> Oh?
09:37 < EricWheelman> It was an old cat that was very sluggish. It took about a week as well and it was getting significantly more active. Don't worry, I didn't overdo it. When I stopped, soon afterwards the effects wored off too.
09:37 < EricWheelman> A.Ramonsky said that he wouldn't want to use it. Because of free radicals.
09:38 < kanzure_> I still don't know who he is.
09:38 < EricWheelman> Really? Wow. See Neurohacking wiki.
09:38 < kanzure_> Is that on the yahoo-group wiki or something?
09:38 < EricWheelman> No.
09:39 < EricWheelman> How can you test such a low-powered device with dead animals?
09:40 < EricWheelman> So is the audio feedback there to make sure it is sending ultrasound?
09:40 < kanzure_> http://home.ramonsky.com/ Neat, an IA book.
09:40 < EricWheelman> That was a really cool book to read I tell you.
09:41 < kanzure_> EricWheelman: The audio feedback would only tell you that it's sending something from 10 Hz to 20 kHz. It wouldn't tell you if it's working in the 600+ kHz range. You'd need an ultrasound detector for that, probably.
09:41 < kanzure_> It's a cheap hacky way to make sure you're not just frying electrons on a PCB. :-/
09:42 < EricWheelman> How could it not work in that range if you have the right components? I don't know how US stuff works though.
09:42 < kanzure_> I'm sure there are some better ideas for testing that the circuit works, come to think of it. Apparently you can make ultrasound transducers out of piezo speakers too (wtf?) and this would be useful for wiring in to a microphone.
09:42 < kanzure_> Very easily, things are breaking and blowing up all the time.
09:44 < EricWheelman> Ha ha, well, I have used infrared for more than 4 years now and I've had 2 of them break but they just didn't work. But I guess you're right. I just wonder if there would be other ways.
09:47 < EricWheelman> One unit I gave to an acquintance, she said didn't get anything from it. I'm surprised. I wonder if it could be the same phenomenon that some people don't experience anything when they take a moderate dose of some psychedelic as well.
09:47 < kanzure_> I should go back to sleep. I wake up in two or three hours for a ridiculous uni schedule. But I should mention that there's project money around here now that I'm loaded, so scheme away.
09:47 < EricWheelman> Yeah what time maradydd will be on or do you have his(?) info on your HD somewhere.
09:48 < EricWheelman> GMT pls
09:48 < EricWheelman> or whaterver I can tarnslate it
09:48 < kanzure_> She's in California somewhere, but she's on the spectrum, so I have no clue what her hours are.
09:49 < EricWheelman> Right.
09:49 < kanzure_> You could look for Meredith on the diybio.org mailing list if you want to gun it.
09:49 < EricWheelman> that's a separate list from hplusroadmap? i jouined that and got no joining mails or anything and the archives have stopped in july which is a bummer.
09:50 < kanzure_> I need a new relayhost. I have the server in my dorm, and all of the email gets dropped until I can get myself a fancy relayhost.
09:51 < EricWheelman> so it's OOO?
09:51 < kanzure_> ?
09:51 < EricWheelman> out of order
09:51 < kanzure_> Yep.
09:51 < kanzure_> But we're still quite active, mind you.
09:51 < kanzure_> http://biohack.sf.net/ <- I trust you found this?
09:52 < kanzure_> http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing and http://groups.google.com/group/openvirgle and many other spheres of influence are at play around here.
09:52 < EricWheelman> ok. thanks for the info. that's the package? I had trouble unpacking that with izarc. it said something about directories. I don't think I got all the files unpacked
09:52 < kanzure_> 'night.
09:52 < kanzure_> Hahah.
09:52 < kanzure_> Yes, that's a common error.
09:52 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/gitweb.cgi <- Try this.
09:52 < EricWheelman> night.
09:53 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/ellingtonia/ <- This has a flat dir listing of the kit-thingy.
09:54 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/books/ should be obvious.
10:10 < UtopiahGHML> EricWheelman: didn't follow the whole discussion but could you explain me in a sentence or two on what you are working on?
10:10 < UtopiahGHML> and what I could gain from it :)
10:11 < EricWheelman> What _I'm_ working on? I'd like to get more brain stimulation thingies. Like the LILFU and TMS. With your gain, do you mean that why should you share your knowledge with me?
10:13 < UtopiahGHML> so you are working on brain stimulation for cognitive improvement?
10:13 < UtopiahGHML> (by gain I just meant, why should I find it interesting, nothing negative in there, on the contrary)
10:14 < EricWheelman> I'm not really working on anything yet. It's not easy to get there (I assume you're american) for a longer time than 3 months to do any work. And I have practically no knowledge of any science. But I have an american friend that we've got plans to start working on TMS.
10:14 < UtopiahGHML> (Im from Europe, France)
10:14 < EricWheelman> And he's an MsC in engineering.
10:15 < UtopiahGHML> nice
10:15 < UtopiahGHML> lacking an official background/uni formation isn't such a limitation if you have a strong enough motivation Im sure
10:18 < EricWheelman> Yeah I know but I'm not sure where kanzure for example started from but I don't share his "I fucking LOVE science" POV. I mean I like science but for him it seems to be like air. For me, I could use these things and try to understand only as much that is needed to hopefully get me what I want in terms of cognition and mood.
10:19 < UtopiahGHML> yes science could help you get there more efficiently and safely
10:22 < EricWheelman> I don't know about safety when thinking of LILFU or infrared but after the infrared experience I'm all for these gadgets. Pharmaceuticals won't have anything to match them in the next 10 years at least.
10:24 < UtopiahGHML> have you tried to contact the CCC ( Chaos Computer Club in Germany ), they presented this type of devices in a camp last year
10:25 < EricWheelman> No : ) That's a rather funny name, never heard. You know, I'm very glad I found you because I know from my own experience that once you get ONE gadget that really works, it can really inspire you to make others. So thanks for the pointer. And yourselves too : )
10:26 < UtopiahGHML> they are a pretty famous hacking club in Germany and in Europe, they are *very* open minded so I guess you could have some fun and positive feedback =]
10:28 < UtopiahGHML> on a more scientific side maybe brainstimulant.blogspot.com could interest you
10:28 < jm|earth> http://chaosradio.ccc.de/
10:29 < jm|earth> and the camp recordings http://chaosradio.ccc.de/camp2007_m4v.html
10:29 < jm|earth> if you're interested
10:30 < jm|earth> most are held in english language
10:30 < UtopiahGHML> Im pretty sure they even made a video last year camp in English
10:31 < UtopiahGHML> ok that's the link, sry ;)
10:32 < UtopiahGHML> Hack Your Brain http://chaosradio.ccc.de/camp2007_m4v_1949.html
10:32 < UtopiahGHML> Using Sound & Light Machines to achieve desired states of consciousness
10:45 < EricWheelman> are these logs saved?
10:47 < UtopiahGHML> yes but kept privately AFAIK
10:51 < EricWheelman> Does private mean group members can read them? I'm just thinking whether I should write info here or wait until kanzure wakes up
10:52 < UtopiahGHML> he reads the logs
11:04 < EricWheelman_> I don't understand what's wrong with my computer. It can't handle as much OC anymore.
11:05 < EricWheelman_> I lost the last thing you wrote, could you repeat that.
11:06 < EricWheelman_> So you're not there anymore?
11:09 -!- EricWheelman_ is now known as EricWheelman
11:11 < UtopiahGHML> 11:51 < EricWheelman> Does private mean group members can read them? I'm just thinking whether I should write info here or wait until kanzure wakes up
11:12 < UtopiahGHML> 11:52 < UtopiahGHML> he reads the logs
11:24 < EricWheelman> As it is, for reasons I won't go into here, I have extra LED units that I could sell. I have bought them from  www.theledman.net
11:28 < EricWheelman> Any takers?
11:34 < EricWheelman> It appears that ledman no longer sells smaller units. 
12:06 < drazak> kanzure_: someone is raping your server, I'm getting 10kb/s down
12:06 < drazak> I'd be willing to host your books and your stuff, if you want
12:36 < UtopiahGHML> drazak: have any idea of the size of a mirror?
12:36 < UtopiahGHML> (just curious)
12:37 < EricWheelman> You should add this forum to your lists if it isn't there already: www.abolitionist-society.com/forum
12:40 < kanzure_> EricWheelman: I'm presently experiencing some bitchy computing troubles. It's best if you email me any links.
12:41 < EricWheelman> you have often this much trouble sleeping?
12:41 < kanzure_> Also, my local TV news stations have recently been talking about stem cell therapies for pets.  This makes for easily acquired stem cells.
12:41 < kanzure_> Eric, no, this is when I should be awake. :)
12:42 < UtopiahGHML> (you could use a script with one of your IRC client ton concat urls in your mediawiki page)
12:45 < kanzure_> UtopiahGHML: A mirror would be 200 GB+.
12:46 < kanzure_> Eric: Nah, I don't breath science.
12:47 < kanzure_> drazak: Fixed?
12:47 < kanzure_> Dr. Guy Matthews for that stem cell stuff. Hrm.
12:48 < kanzure_> "We just use fat. It's a surgical procedure to go in and take fat, like fat. Then we send it in to VetStem in San Diego, they're the only company doing the procedure. One of the syringes go IV, the other one we pass tiny needles into the joints."
12:49 < kanzure_> http://vet-stem.com/
12:51 < EricWheelman> Kanzure: Well, I've just gotta say your impression of that is very good! : )
12:52 < kanzure_> Bah. Doesn't talk about cost.
12:52 < kanzure_> EricWheelman: Impression, what?
12:53 < EricWheelman> impression of breathing science..
12:53 < kanzure_> Yes, it's .. a problem. :)
12:55 < EricWheelman> btw, when are the people who have done the TMS-like rigs showing up?
12:57 < kanzure_> try Superkuh in #biology
13:00 < kanzure_> he's also in ##neuroscience.
13:01 < EricWheelman> tnx
13:04 < kanzure_> I'm trying to remember who else. I know of a local here in Austin, Texas who has some physical workup of a partial setup. Apparently he's a high-profile Apple employee who lives on the public buses.
13:07 < kanzure_> Alright, I'm off to class.
13:11 < EricWheelman> That's funny. Great to hear of people like that. Can he be reached?
13:13 < kanzure_> Sort of. I'd have to reach him through Aaron Brunell, the guy who started the Austin Transhumanism Meetup group, and only ran it for like 4 meetings (we already had a group here, you see). I'll try to remember to do this.
13:24 < EricWheelman> do you know anyone who would be interested in buying shakti? For some people it works better than others, I've heard. The first time was great but there's tolerance.
13:31 < EricWheelman> I guess it's better to sell it to other people and give it for free to you guys. Though I don't have the newest version and the newest version has the important feature of mixing up the signals a little bit to decrease habituation.
13:36 < EricWheelman> I'm still thinking that maybe I shouldn't do it. because the author will eventually find out about the torrent and who's version it is and cut off technical support etc. And I wouldn't want that to happen to the person I'll sell it to. I have software for his other system as well, though it worked less well for me than Shakti.
13:37 < EricWheelman> PLEASE NOTE, that I would not be pleased if you shouted out in forums/IRC that I have the softwares for them. I've got someone else's ass to think about as well.
13:41 < EricWheelman> I would need to be certain that everyone who mails me and asks a copy, doesn't pass it on for someone they aren't 100% sure will not pass it on. Unfortunately, I don't that in the end this won't hold. But it should hold so long that the buyer already knows his system inside and out. Of course, when that person sells it on, then the buyer won't get support. Damn, I hate morality : )
13:44 < EricWheelman> hmm, the next person wouldn't know anything about why his copy is in circulation. Even then, of course, Murphy could shut off the support for him.
13:45 < EricWheelman> in which case, I could provide basic support I guess.
13:46 < EricWheelman> But there's a possibility he/she would feel cheated. And I wouldn't want that. Aarghh..
13:49 < EricWheelman> But I do think that products should be priced because of their value. The Shakti software isn't worth $250. It's worth might be $75-$100. WHen I checked the signals on a software oscilloscope, they were mostly artificial. Really. There are like 2-3 signals that look like they might be derived from the brain. So I think he deserves this really.
13:56 < EricWheelman> All he needs is relations to a researcher that does EEG research with people with epilepsy for example and records that. And does the 'software' which isn't even coded, it's a kind of an ebook. The cost of production might be $2500. That would mean 900% markup. If he sold 1000 copies, $22500 in profit.
14:27 < EricWheelman> Your suggestions are appreciated.
14:37 < EricWheelman> If we gathered a group together, like 9 people, each giving me $20, I could sell it to you and then you would be able to use it (though only 1 person could get tech support). There would no hard feelings for anyone.
14:37 < EricWheelman> Please get back to me soon on this because I'm in need of money and I need to know how to proceed.
14:39 < EricWheelman> On and the update costs $15. So even if I got $180, I only would be left with $165 so consider that.
14:45 < EricWheelman> Oh, I got the original price wrong. It's $290 to the US. So maybe $210.
14:45 < EricWheelman> including shipping.
14:46 < EricWheelman> And now I forgot that the cables and coils cost something X) So back to $180.
16:57 < kanzure__> Partially yanked ethernet wire. Go figure.
17:20 < EricWheelman> nothing from brian
17:20 < EricWheelman> sorry, i meant superkuh
17:21 < kanzure__> Did he talk with you?
17:21 < EricWheelman> Well, how do you interpret 'nothing'?
17:21 < kanzure__> Superkuh doesn't talk much anyway.
17:22 < EricWheelman> Uh, but I said 'bryan sent me'. He isn't your friend?
17:24 < kanzure__> EricWheelman: Did he reply to you at all?
17:25 < kanzure__> When I say he doesn't talk much, I very much so mean it. 
17:25 < EricWheelman> Is he apathetic or what?
17:25 < kanzure__> Strong case of Asperger's.
17:26 < EricWheelman> Wow, wouldn't you call that more like HFA than AS?
17:26 < kanzure__> Not in his case.
17:26 < kanzure__> http://superkuh.ath.cx/ might be up.
17:29 < EricWheelman> He did answer now.
17:30 < UtopiahGHML> "We (TrueKnowledge) had questions like Who won the US presidential election? working within minutes of the announcement, thanks to Equanimous."
17:31 < kanzure__> EricWheelman: Oh? What did he say?
17:31 < UtopiahGHML> very funny to be proud of having answers handle by human fast for a project who's goal is do generate answers automatically...
17:31 < UtopiahGHML> TrueKnowledge and FreeBase seems to fail on information extraction unlike... AmazongMechanicalTurk...
17:32 < UtopiahGHML> guess the SemanticWeb is as close as Obama is regarding the SavingTheWorld-mission.
17:35 < kanzure__> FreeBase. Hrm. I was going to send in my resume in to them.
17:35 < kanzure__> But then I realized they sucked.
17:35 < EricWheelman> He has some files but I wonder if they are mostly the same as yours
17:38 < UtopiahGHML> regarding FreeBase http://mqlx.com/~david/parallax/ can be handy
17:38 < UtopiahGHML> but I think both project don't deliver
17:38 < kanzure__> EricWheelman: He has some papers, I know that much. He has a larger paper collection than I do because the majority of my files are my attempts to mimic his directory.
17:38 < UtopiahGHML> they are like DBpedia with nicer interfaces basically
17:38 < kanzure__> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/open-rtms/ has a .txt file somewhere which lists files that I have yet to retrieve, which are the sames ones as in his dir.
17:38 < kanzure__> But if he has other files that would be of interest, I suggest you take them and tell me about them. :)
17:42 < EricWheelman> do you have his design pics?
17:43 < kanzure__> No. I don't know if any exist.
17:46 < UtopiahGHML> Languages evolution (Lisp/Haskell/Python/Ruby/PHP) http://tinyurl.com/6nw3zy according to ohloh
17:46 < UtopiahGHML> Monthly Commits (Percent of Total) 
17:47 < kanzure__> Wasn't there a song about ohloh F/OSS superstars?
17:47 < UtopiahGHML> maybe, guessed it didn't reach the top of the charts on MTV 
17:48 < UtopiahGHML> wait, was it generated  with Vocaloid? ;)
17:49 < UtopiahGHML> (Yamaha voice synth soft.)
17:52 < EricWheelman> I checked many of the files and it seems that he hasn't digitized his version. What I wonder is that he reported the wire breaking every time. I'm worried about that sort of thing hindering our construction of TMS. Would connection to a TMS engineer be necessary?
17:53 < EricWheelman> There would not be a problem if US didn't have to avoid immigrants so strictly.
17:54 < EricWheelman> (I don't know if you're read the mail I sent you but my engineer lives in Arizona)
17:54 < EricWheelman> (and I live in Scandinavia)
17:54 < kanzure__> I haven't read it yet, I'll get to it.
17:55 < xp_prg> kanzure__ did you get my email?!
17:55 < xp_prg> I have the first version of the script completed!
17:55 < kanzure__> Does anybody have a designGraph example of the grxml? The one without the <L /> and <R /> elements.
17:55 < kanzure__> xp_prg: Yes, you sent two yesterday.
17:55 < kanzure__> I haven't had a chance to go over it, but it will be implemented very shortly.
17:55 < xp_prg> sweet!
17:55 < kanzure__> I'm presently implementing the general version with GraphSynth, and then will allow the SBML/biobrick version as well.
17:55 < EricWheelman> Oh and please read the log through. I have q's there about Shakti.
17:56  * kanzure__ goes looking for the file.
17:56 < EricWheelman> or rather people's interest in it
17:56 < kanzure__> I don't have logs at the moment. I'll tunnel home later and see what's up. I tend to avoid Shakti and god helmit stuff, but not for any reasons I immediately remember.
18:01 -!- percent is now known as jihaaad
18:02 < EricWheelman> Maybe there price? : )
18:02 < EricWheelman> "the"
18:04 < EricWheelman> Once you have read, please ask those of your friends who'd like to be able to have Shakti. 
18:04 < EricWheelman> And tell me tomorrow what all of you thought
18:04 < EricWheelman> thx
18:05 < kanzure__> Eh?
18:05 < kanzure__> Are you expecting to make cash? :/
18:06 < EricWheelman> Well, I paid $280 for it. I am selling it, so hell yeah.
18:07 < kanzure__> Does it work? :)
18:07 < EricWheelman> The thing is, that you can share the cost. I'm asking for $200. You can bargain of course :)
18:08 < kanzure__> Shipping from the other side of the galaxy isn't very convenient, is it?
18:08 < EricWheelman> It's not that heavy.
18:08 < EricWheelman> It's not a helmet, it's a baseball cap.
18:09 < EricWheelman> If you have a store that carries all that stuff, well, I can understand. But the software is the main thing here.
18:09 < kanzure__> Eh? What's so terrible about the software?
18:09 < kanzure__> I mean, are you not a programmer?
18:09 < EricWheelman> No...?
18:10 < UtopiahGHML> a free active 2.4GHz beacon design http://www.openbeacon.org/start.0.html (could be pretty funky to generalize that)
18:10 < kanzure__> UtopiahGHML: Also see Ronja.
18:10 < kanzure__> EricWheelman: Ah, the majority of those in here are programmers.
18:10 < kanzure__> It tends to come with the territory.
18:11 < UtopiahGHML> (difficult not to be a programmer one way or another)
18:13 < EricWheelman> Well, can you code a program that mixes up a WAV file? I don't know if they have changed Shakti to be parametric. If they have, it will be (or so I think?) more difficult to replicate it by yourself. If they just manipulate one seed file, then I can see how you could code that fairly easily.
18:13 < UtopiahGHML> I need to spend bucks on RFID/ solar pannel and stuff or start an equivalent of DIY-Lab around here, hosting a public citizen tech lab thanks to public funds.
18:14 < EricWheelman> Utopiah: Won't they start to shout Frankenstein around things like that?
18:14 < UtopiahGHML> depends how you communicate about that I guess
18:14 < UtopiahGHML> people are going to complain anyway for everything
18:17 < EricWheelman> Utopiah: No I don't mean that. Who cares. I mean, you are prepared for it be shut down? I would be surprised if that wouldn't happen. Unless totally UG. But how can a public project be UG ...
18:20 < UtopiahGHML> EricWheelman: just sth like TechShop but as an association
18:20 < EricWheelman> kanzure: I took another look. It isn't parametric. Just 'DSP plugins add random and semi-random (semi-fractal)' volume-changes. Oh wow, just volume changes... well hell yeah, that's easy. Ok, then forget about the log. I'm selling it and putting the wave files into circulation. Do you know how I can get people to seed them? I wouldn't want to seed them cause right now I can't be bothered to...
18:20 < EricWheelman> ...make my security good enough.
18:22 < EricWheelman> Yeah but people's associations, if they would hear about that, might be aroused... you know, 'Don't mess with God's creation'...
18:23 < EricWheelman> or have I been too much on youtube, the magnet for dumbasses?
18:24 < EricWheelman> Gotta have the front clean... very innocent. No OTC Stem cells : )
18:25 < UtopiahGHML> EricWheelman: anything can happen except if you don't try so I don't want to be afraid before even starting
18:26 < EricWheelman> Yeah of course, go for it, but do think of this so it can go on longer.
18:27 < UtopiahGHML> so far it's just an idea threw on the pile, Ill keep on peering and see how it goes but Im pretty sure Im not the only person around this lost place I live who'd appreciate to invest in a comment pot to have good experimenting tools that wouldn't belong to any institution and would aim for local R&D
18:30 < EricWheelman> Yes.
18:38 < EricWheelman> Windows question: How can I change my hard drive being letter J? (it's my only HD)
18:39 < EricWheelman> my DVD drive is D:
18:42 < EricWheelman> COA2 = solution
18:47 < kanzure__> Yes, I have a "seeder network" now. I'm presently loading shit on to 1 TB hdd's from the Boston Fab Lab peoples, for instance.
18:47  * kanzure__ goes to chem.
18:52 < EricWheelman> Do you have AS? I have and it's nice to see people who are not autism apologetics.
18:53 < EricWheelman> at least extremely so
19:52 < drazak> kanzure__: I'm going to have a vps with a 40 or 50gb drive, is this enough space to mirror your /books or atleast /books/chem /books/bio and whatnot
20:10 < drazak> scratch that
20:10 < drazak> 1250gb
21:13 < kanzure__> drazak: Yes, that's enough to mirror the (actual) books in /books/. Not enough for everything else though.
21:13 < kanzure__> Oh, 1250 gb, sure.
21:14 < kanzure__> EricWheelman: I am not diagnosed, but I'm far from apologetic. I'm interested in going the opposite direction of 'cure'.
21:15 < drazak> kanzure__: I'll probably have a 1250gb mirror in the next few weeks
21:19 < xp_prg> kanzure__ dude, you using my script yet?
21:20 < kanzure__> xp_prg: No. I've been in class all day. I know this is no excuse, but I'll be working on the stuff later tonight.
21:20 < EricWheelman> I  should have worded my opinion differently. I am pro-cure. I would not want to be autistic. Unlike many others, I can't see anything positive in my condition and it might not be a problem with my POV.
21:21 < kanzure__> http://heybryan.org/intense_world_syndrome.html
21:22 < EricWheelman> One doesn't have to be autistic to be a great scientist. A superb scientist maybe, but is there a need for that? No if there are enough of scientists like that.
21:22 < EricWheelman> good enough.
21:24 < bkero> http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/03/24/014238
21:24 < EricWheelman> I glanced at that doc and it was too much for me : ) I'm sure you can put in to a few sentences the core idea.
21:24 < kanzure__> The 'greatness' thing isn't entirely the point.
21:24 < kanzure__> EricWheelman: The abstract is the core idea.
21:24 < kanzure__> It's the first <blockquote>d stuff.
21:25 < EricWheelman> The science side is just one argument I've encountered.
21:27 < EricWheelman> Do you mean that it is impossible to make it shorter?
21:27 < kanzure__> No, but why should I be less lazy so as to satisfy your own inherent laziness?
21:28 < kanzure__> Out of context the no-cure-for-me stance looks bad. What I mean to say is that there are certain brain architectural aspects that aren't worth total deletion.
21:29 < EricWheelman> I don't appreciate being called lazy. Because I don't experience the world in a hyper way. Or maybe I do unconsciously (ie. repression). 
21:31 < kanzure__> Heh.
21:32 < EricWheelman> What's there to laugh about?
21:34 < EricWheelman> That isn't exactly a reader friendly text.
21:35 < EricWheelman> The last sentence was  a bit odd... you cite science and then you end with a metapsychological philosophical pondering...
21:37 < kanzure__> Yesterday I was reading about a distinction an aspie was making between how some people seem to be able to "choose to do things from a set" whereas those on the spectrum are rather more like a snowball tumbling down a path (well, think of it as not selecting from a discrete set of options). So when you word it as not experiencing it in a hyper way, that's reminiscient of the style of thinking.
21:37 < kanzure__> EricWheelman: That's the second <blockquote>, so that doesn't count IMHO as the first one.
21:37 < EricWheelman> That was supposed to be 'metaphysical philosophical'
21:37 < kanzure__> But yes, it's from a book.
21:38 < kanzure__> Fiction.
21:38 < EricWheelman> So do you mean to say that everyone who are unstable mentally or emotionally are autistic?
21:39 < EricWheelman> or with lower frontal cortex activity?
21:39 < EricWheelman> This 'snowballing' thing is what I refer to
21:41 < kanzure__> No. I was saying why I said "heh" to the style of thinking I saw. It was because I recognized something close to it the other day, not because "everyone who are unstable mentally or emotionally, or with lower frontal cortex activity, are autistic".
21:41 < kanzure__> http://www.autistics.org/library/inertia.html was the page, for the record.
21:42 < EricWheelman> Well that still doesn't explain anything.
21:42 < EricWheelman> I mean I can't understand your thinking.
21:43 < kanzure__> Finding an amusing correlation?
21:43 < kanzure__> Meh. Anyway, I have to go to the "reverse engineering" class at the moment.
21:44 < kanzure__> fenn: Paul braindumped on the openmanufacturing list in response to Josef. It's cool-- I think everyone is thinking Josef is wrong. 
21:44 < kanzure__> After Eric's braindump yesterday (which was also a cool example of his style), it's like drinking chocolate.
21:44  * kanzure__ goes to class.
21:45 < EricWheelman> Where's the proof that this inertia has anything to do with autism?
21:50 < EricWheelman> You talking about me? If you are, that's ok but why does a braindump have to do with autism?
21:52 < EricWheelman> if you can separate the braindump of NT's and AS then please tell me. It's rude to talk about people behind their backs. Or do you think I can't handle it?
22:00 < EricWheelman> I read the wiki. I see. So is it this way: for an NT the information exchange would have been secondary to the social value? The thing is that if I would not have been pretty sure that I could give you good TMS schematics, it's highly possible I wouldn't have come here, even when I didn't have it yesterday. Though regrettably, I'm not sure if it will happen, the guy is in bad shape. So SORRY...
22:00 < EricWheelman> ...I bothered you, by myself I'm useless and I'm good in any way like I suppose all or most of you are.
22:01 < EricWheelman> 'Not good' instead of 'I'm good'
22:01 < EricWheelman> and 'unlike' instead of 'like'
22:27 < nsh> whut
22:44 < kanzure_> EricWheelman: Woah. No. I was not talking about you when I said Eric's braindump. Sorry.
22:45 < kanzure_> I said on the openmanufacturing mailing list. To my knowledge you do not subscribe to that mailing list.
22:45 < kanzure_> So those comments wouldn't apply ..
22:48 < EricWheelman> you are not pulling my leg are you? So if someone begins to annoy you, you can say that?
22:48 < kanzure_> What?
22:48 < kanzure_> http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing
22:48 < kanzure_> Go look. There's an Eric Hunting on that mailing list. Go look at what he posted yesterday. I would qualify that as a 'braindump' and yes, it was awesome.
22:49 < EricWheelman> I didn't annoy you?
22:49 < kanzure_> You did not annoy me.
22:49 < xp_prg> kanzure what did he mention that you liked just curious?
22:49 < kanzure_> xp_prg: Hunting's style has consistently been on the same line as my own, as well as fenn and nsh in here. 
22:50 < xp_prg> so you liked the style not the content?
22:50 < kanzure_> It's ridiculous how often "on the mark" he is. And he writes pretty well. I don't know how he does it.
22:50 < kanzure_> Structure is function; his content is what gives it the style of course.
22:50 < xp_prg> well off to lunch
22:50 -!- xp_prg is now known as xp_lunch
22:50 < kanzure_> He says the same things that I tend to say, except he takes the time to word it in a good way or something.
22:50 < kanzure_> If I knew his secret I'd be more specific of course. hehe
22:51 < nsh> no, mr bond, if you knew his secret, you'd be dead.
22:51 < kanzure_> Who's Q?
22:51 < nsh> good question
22:53 < kanzure_> EricWheelman: Re: torrenting the software. Yes, so I'm (slowly) building up the underground diffusion networks for this sort of thing. I have a pretty big torrent that I'm pushing to many other people at the moment. If you want to piggyback the Shakti software, I'd be all for it.
22:54 < kanzure_> EricWheelman: Is there some sort of keycode that the software uses? Since we're all programmers we could try our hand at breaking that if you want.
22:56 < EricWheelman> did you remember the reason why you were not interested in it? there can't be too many, can there?
22:56 < kanzure_> My reasoning is rather obscure. Something about reading about it on a crank page on the net, and then thinking that I should just avoid it in my scheming. 
22:57 < kanzure_> I'd like to discuss it with the others, since this would be breaking into their project money, :-)
22:57 < kanzure_> our project money I guess
23:00 < kanzure_> EricWheelman: What's the nature of your urgency anyway?
23:00 < EricWheelman> What do you care?
23:07 < nsh> so
23:07 < nsh> what are y'all talking bout?
23:08 < EricWheelman> We're talking how we should see Finland join NATO so we could send their troops to Iraq.
23:08  * UtopiahGHML is kinda lost
23:09 < nsh> oh
23:10 < EricWheelman> Isn't that a good thing? We need more oil, after all.
23:10 < EricWheelman> But... maybe some other country would be cheaper to exploit.
23:11 < nsh> shh.
23:12 < UtopiahGHML> you know you should order countries by potential resources return on investment (ROI) and see if there is any correlation with the "installing democracy" movement
23:12 < UtopiahGHML> (but that would require to take into account military R&D and that's kind of complex I guess)
23:13  * nsh hmms at stigmergy
23:13 < EricWheelman> so what is it, the theory of war because of war?
23:14 < nsh> kanzure_, Eric's braindum = the post titled "Land and Capital; Invention and Automation"?
23:14 < EricWheelman> (for the arms industry is what I mean)
23:15 < EricWheelman> nsh: Yeah what about it?
23:15  * nsh is reading it
23:18 < kanzure_> nsh: Yes, if it's the ridiculously long one.
23:18 < kanzure_> EricWheelman: I think that's dependent on your answer.
23:20 < kanzure_> I find it disappointing that Paul left our work out of his 'stack' in the stigmergy thread.
23:20 < EricWheelman> Right. You shouldn't. It's a near-miracle if he'll survive. A pity.
23:20 < kanzure_> EricWheelman: What? He? I thought you asked me why your urgency is of any interest to me.
23:20 < EricWheelman> With him I mean of course the Wizard of engineering.
23:20 < EricWheelman> my secret friend
23:20 < kanzure_> The wizard's situation is urgent?
23:21 < EricWheelman> Unfortunately.
23:21 < kanzure_> Maybe he should show up in here and I'll see what we can do for him?
23:21 < kanzure_> I'm guessing it's more of a money thing though.
23:22 < nsh> heh, was thinking "it's not that long", until i saw the 'read more' link
23:22 < EricWheelman> But you're doing great, makes no difference.
23:23 < EricWheelman> If you had access to psilocybe mushrooms, that would be a help, you know, for charity.
23:23 < kanzure_> I might.
23:24 < kanzure_> And what's doing great defined as?
23:24 < EricWheelman> Do you think you might not be doing great?
23:25 < kanzure_> I don't know what your evaluation function is. So how would I know?
23:25  * nsh frowns
23:25 < kanzure_> nsh: ?
23:26 < UtopiahGHML> nsh: do you think it's a good defiition/use of the term : http://collaboration.wikia.com/wiki/Stigmergic_collaboration ?
23:26 < nsh> (conversation seems somewhat unproductive)
23:26 < EricWheelman> How bad do you want it? If you don't want it bad, then you probably don't have a great need for it (this is of course dismissing all wants not aligned with needs)
23:26 < nsh> UtopiahGHML, looking
23:26 < nsh> shh.
23:26 < kanzure_> EricWheelman: Are you talking abstractly in general?
23:27 < EricWheelman> How do I know?
23:27 < kanzure_> Nov 15 Dell Diamond "Walk Autism" 10:30. Bah.
23:27 < kanzure_> I am confused.
23:27  * kanzure_ goes off to eat.
23:30 < nsh> UtopiahGHML, i think the concept is very promising
23:30 < UtopiahGHML> maybe digging the thesis could be nice, especially since Im starting to use wiki a lot myself.
23:31 < nsh> there's a certain fecundity when a new label arrives, its time ripe in terms of people who have been thinking similar-enough-to-breed, but diverse-enough-for-rapid-adaption 
23:32 < UtopiahGHML> as long as it's an affordance that allow you to build on it, if you new words help you to think clearly it's a good think. The risk is with communication though, introducing new words all the time is risky since it's very demanding.
23:32 < nsh> like a kind of fractal convergence, many people zooming into one locus from different origins, such that there much conceptual detail is revealed
23:33 < nsh> UtopiahGHML, right, there's a certain equilibrium 
23:34 < UtopiahGHML> (added the term to me "new concept" page, Ill digg it later on)
23:35 < nsh> cool
23:37 < nsh> yes, Eric Hunting seems very on the ball
23:39 < nsh> hmm
23:39 -!- xp_lunch is now known as xp_prg
23:40 < nsh> hrmm
23:41 < nsh> it'd be nice to be able to imagine straight into (vector) video
23:42 < nsh> just had a lovely little visual sequence of the oroborus hydra that is the current metamorphosis of the content industry
23:42 < nsh> the long tail growing at the expense of the importance of the centralised and power-structure entrenched head
23:42 < kanzure_> straight into / vector video?
23:43 < kanzure_> Oh, nevermind. I see now.
23:43 < kanzure_> You previously mentioned the hydra as an example.
23:43 < kanzure_> Actually that was Paul. Search for Fernhout + hydra on the mailing list. Or OpenVirgle mailing list.
23:43 < nsh> will do
23:43 < nsh> in my dreamlet, the tail grows -- to the consternation of the head, which seeks to swallow it
23:44 < kanzure_> Tony's thesis is more like the long-tail growing but with global forces of contraction. Erm, I'm probably fucking this up in a bad way.
23:44 < nsh> in the process creating cargo-cult shallowthets of its creative expression
23:44 < nsh> but the tail does not grow linearly, but bifurcates (hydra-like)
23:44 < kanzure_> 'course.
23:44 < UtopiahGHML> anybody has a tool to see how up-to-date someone is? like to automatically see how fresh the information he/she uses are (time to post vs time of original referred writting)? then being able to do so recursively and see how fresh the information processed stayed? (just a random idea)
23:44 < nsh> as each new creative development is taken in a multitude of different directions
23:45 < nsh> the head attempting to eat (and thus reintegrate into its power structure) the tails only exasperates this division
23:45 < nsh> and accelerates its own demise
23:45 < nsh> into a vine jungle ecosystem of diversity in independent copropersity
23:45 < nsh> or something to that effect
23:46 < nsh> UtopiahGHML, i think first we need to enculturate network epistemology: knowing out-there, rather than locked in headspace
23:47 < nsh> once there is a shared paradigm (analogous to verbal language) that makes normative the automatic mirroring of internal knowledge on the network
23:47 < nsh> then the process of replicational distribution (keeping track of people's updates) will be far more tractable
23:47 < UtopiahGHML> could the semantic web be used to go in that direction?
23:47 < nsh> hopefully
23:48 < UtopiahGHML> hopefully :/
23:48 < UtopiahGHML> guess Zotero could help too
23:48 < nsh> i'm thinking that if we can somehow build around a centralised, collaborately agreed upon canonicalisation of concepts such as wikipedia
23:49 < nsh> but, (and i think this is essential), allow it work at much smaller and larger degrees of granularity
23:49 < nsh> then people could tag their own epistemology onto the scaffolding of the centralised knowledge-base
23:50 < UtopiahGHML> when you say centralize you mean a common structure but not a realled centralized architecture, right?
23:50 < nsh> right
23:50 < nsh> universally signification, rather than central control or architecture
23:50 < UtopiahGHML> since you are talking about scaffolding and affordances, have you read Andy Clark with his concept of cognitive scaffolding?
23:50 < nsh> no
23:51  * nsh looks
23:51 < UtopiahGHML> not sure if it's your style but I liked the idea
23:51 < UtopiahGHML> http://www.philosophy.ed.ac.uk/staff/clark/pubs/where.pdf
23:51 < nsh> ty
23:52 < nsh> so, that (your association) makes me see a reciprocity i hadn't realised before
23:53  * nsh thinks how to express
23:54 < nsh> so there are situations, like this stigmergy example, where a lot of people are thinking similar enough (hypothesised internal metalinguistic) thoughts, but using different terms 
23:55 < nsh> so you want a way to find the the commonality and from that derive a standardisable uniqueness of identifier
23:55 < nsh> the concept of apple as distinct from all the names for it
23:56 < UtopiahGHML> yes
23:56 < UtopiahGHML> that's what word are supposed to be for
23:56 < nsh> then there's the flip side of the coin where you want to spread out, smear through a family of roughly synonymous concepts 
23:56 < kanzure_> UtopiahGHML: It's hard enough to extract references from PDFs. I would like to be able to do that one day, of course. Given sufficiently good OCR, it should be possible to do that. Actually, some databases give their content in citation-formats or whatever, so maybe that can be done for papers. Stuff that references the oldest versus the newest versus those with good percentile mixes. That would be fun metadata.
23:57 < nsh> so as to express a more abstract gist that actually wishes to avoid this specificity
23:57 < nsh> so, i wanted just to express something that you can build from, a framework, at foundation, a scaffolding, without necessarily invoking the associations of any particular member of synonymic family or cloud
23:57 < UtopiahGHML> kanzure_: Zotero starts to have good "connectors" (I think that's their terminology), they word with online library but Im not sure they go "within" pdf, have to check with ScienceDirect papers
23:58 < kanzure_> As for smear-out, term generators are useful.
23:58 < UtopiahGHML> nsh: I don't think you can use a word without invoking any association
23:58 < nsh> to a certain extent, right
23:58 < kanzure_> nsh: But when you talk about stigmergic annotation and word-choice, that's really the Google advertizer's dillema, no? 
23:58 < nsh> but (another quick visual flash), ever pressed on multiple places of a touch screen
23:58 < nsh> as you vary the pressure, the cursor moves between the points you press
23:59 < nsh> imagine you could do that with a set of concepts
23:59  * UtopiahGHML still doesn't have his own multitouch table :(
23:59 < nsh> (no, a single touch table, hence the averaging)
23:59 < nsh> (doesn't work so well with laptop trackpads, unfortunately)
23:59 < kanzure_> nsh: I don't see what your grounded version would be. So you're off in la land.