--- Day changed Wed Nov 12 2008
00:19 < wrldpc> hey bryan could you link me to the ultrasound neuronal stimulation paper?
00:19 < wrldpc> I can't recall where on hb i located it
00:20 < kanzure_> hb heh'
00:20 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/Ultrasound_brain.pdf
00:20 < wrldpc> sry
00:20 < wrldpc> ty
00:27 < fenn> "I can't be cool because I already know that indifference Closes the doors of humanity
00:27 < kanzure_> ?
00:27 < fenn> translated lyrics from ghost in the shell
00:27 < fenn> lyrics appreciation day!
00:28 < fenn> with a fap to xahlee
00:28 < kanzure_> is it that time of year already?
00:28 < kanzure_> I mentioned xahlee to you before, yes?
00:29 < fenn> yes and i found him on my own already
00:31 < fenn> um, same author i guess (yoko kanno's AI alter ego gabriela robin)
00:33 < fenn> heh sorry, same author as "information high"
01:42 < kanzure_> Why do we schedule things for 8 at night again?
01:44 < kanzure_> Huh. Job seeker on wta-talk for "in the transhumanist sector".
01:44 < kanzure_> so .. marketing?
02:07 < gene> you there kanzure
02:10 -!- gene_ is now known as gene
02:36 < gene> looks like we have enemies http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2008/11/can-humans-live.html
02:42 < wrldpc> His name is Sherwin Nuland.  He works at Yale School of Medicine.
02:42 < wrldpc> Dispatch the mercenaries.
02:43 < wrldpc> ;)
02:44 < gene> We don't dispatch merceneries
02:44 < gene> we dispatch genetically modified winged marmots
02:44 < gene> that shoot fire
02:45 < wrldpc> v00t
02:46 < wrldpc> nanobugs with polonium-210 payloads ;)
02:46 < wrldpc> is anyone watching Fringe now?
02:47 < wrldpc> wtf is with Sherwin?  Is he that despaired?
02:47 < wrldpc> Many people reject immortality because they feel they've nothing to live for.
02:47 < wrldpc> Necessitates the resurrection of the dead.
02:50 < gene> heh
02:51 < gene> is that on fringe
02:51 < gene> I might have to watch it then
02:51 < wrldpc> heh
02:51 < wrldpc> nope ... not that wise unfortunately ;)
02:54 < wrldpc> they're using electricity to jump start a dead guy's brain and then transmitting the corpse's (?) brainwaves to another guy's brain to get some data for Agent Dunham who's in Germany ........
03:50 < kanzure_> So, for the Building Brains class, the (ridiculously simple) homework is to describe, list and identify the ions for a neuron with an excitatory synapse that has a peak of 60 mV, and a resting potential of 0 mV, and an inhibitory synapse with a peak of -60 mV for an action potential and a resting potential of 0 mV. What are the relative concentrations at each state of the ions?
03:50 < kanzure_> The ions in the system are potassium and sodium.
03:50 < kanzure_> gene: Okay, thanks for the reminder.
04:01 < kanzure_> Hey, does anyone want to check if Maddox's site follows the Supermemo repetition spacing curve?
04:38 < gene> what's maddox?
04:38 < kanzure_> http://thebestpageintheuniverse.net/
04:38 < gene> it's down
04:38 < gene> Hey Kanzure
04:38 < kanzure_> http://maddox.xmission.com
04:38 < kanzure_> Try that one.
04:39 < kanzure_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maddox_(writer)
04:39 < kanzure_> Fine, his server is down.
04:39 < kanzure_> But Wikipedia will have about him.
04:39 < gene> you know anyway I can not sleep
04:40 < gene> nothing about it in wikipedia
04:41 < gene> you have any tips on avoid sleep
04:41 < gene> avoiding sleep
04:41 < gene> currently experiencing verbal system air
04:42 < gene> any coffees you recommend, teas, formulations?
04:43 < gene> kanzure?
04:47 < gene> SLEEP IS FOR SLACKERS!
04:47 < kanzure_> gene: Stimulants.
04:47 < kanzure_> Sleep is for the weak.
04:47 < gene> indeed
04:48 < gene> what do you recommend?
04:48 < kanzure_> I'm on 60 mg Adderall.
04:48 < gene> right now?
04:49 < kanzure_> Not at the moment, I was hoping to get some hours of sleep tonight actually.
04:49 < gene> I'm on 30 mg
04:49 < gene> wait
04:49 < kanzure_> Of what?
04:49 < gene> of same
04:49 < kanzure_> Extended release?]
04:49 < gene> yeah
04:54 < kanzure_> Server is going down tonight.
04:55 < gene> I have decided not to sleep tonight
05:30 -!- gene_ is now known as gene
05:31 < kanzure_> I feel so dirty because of that latest email I sent to openmanufacturing.
05:40 < gene> what did you do this time?
05:40 < gene> wait a minute, you sent me a mbio thing about patent law?
05:41 < gene> what's the fun in that?
05:41 < kanzure_> You go to know who to stay away from.
05:41 < xp_prg> kanzure whatup with my script you doing more with it or what?
05:42 < kanzure_> xp_prg: I thought I explained?
05:42 < xp_prg> you said you were doing more stuff in other areas or something
05:42 < kanzure_> .. righto, well there's a bit more to it than that but ok
05:42 < ybit> thoughtware.tv :: new to me
05:43 < kanzure_> thoughtware.tv is new to you? :)
05:43 < kanzure_> They spam the transhumanist mailing lists like crazy.
05:43 < ybit> that's where i found it just now
05:43 < kanzure_> singularity list?
05:43 < ybit> yep
05:43 < gene> what's thoughtware, and does anyone know eigenvectors/ eigenvalues
05:44 < kanzure_> Just some media website.
05:44 < gene> do you know eigen vectors kanzure?
05:45 < kanzure_> I no longer know them.
05:45 < gene> damn
05:53 < kanzure_> Uh oh.
05:53 < kanzure_> Nope, nevermind. False alarm.
05:54 < gene> what about how to solve boundary value problems
05:54 < gene> guess not
05:56 < kanzure_> I'm looking at this on Wikipedia and I fail to see how boundary value problems aren't solved by the same ways you find limits of multivariable functions.
06:04 < gene> it sorta of is
06:04 < gene> but is sorta not
09:22 < kanzure_> Waah, Paul is getting bitchy because he doesn't use IRC.
09:22 < kanzure_> ".. looks like you last updated 4 months ago .. I don't do IRC though and am too lazy to read logs even though I read every other kind of log"
12:53 < kanzure_> for the ronja receiver: "it looks like pitch-black-analog-movie material can make some quite good IR-pass filters. since they usually are 35mm square they could be placed quite easy in front of the receiver diodes for IR-based systems"
13:59 < UtopiahGHML> Updates from visualbiotech http://www.youtube.com/user/visualbiotech , videos of neurons rendering
14:09 < UtopiahGHML> (for the story BioInspire, made by VisualBioTech, is used by the Blue Brain Project at the Brain Mind Institute of the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology in Lausanne, Switzerland)
14:09 < UtopiahGHML> (and for the story of the story "The Blue Brain project is the first comprehensive attempt to reverse-engineer the mammalian brain, in order to understand brain function and dysfunction through detailed simulations." EFPL+IBM)
15:21 < UtopiahGHML> (actually those were old renderings :(
15:27 < nsh> hrm
15:47 < UtopiahGHML> anyway, between this project and the LHC it makes you think that despite its size, Switzerland is still pretty active...
15:51 < nsh> switzerland is a geographical tardis
15:52 < UtopiahGHML> (watching http://seedmagazine.com/mind08/mind08_henry-markram.html )
15:54 < UtopiahGHML> @14:00 building biocomputer to run the simulations of the brain modeled
15:54 < UtopiahGHML> \Hi Descartes\
16:56 < kanzure__> UtopiahGHML: I have a link to the Henry Markram talk on the wiki btw.
16:56 < kanzure__> http://heybryan.org/intense_world_syndrome.html is the same guy running the Blue Brain Project
16:56 < kanzure__> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Henry_Markram 
16:57 < kanzure__> UtopiahGHML: Yeah, if that link on seedmagazine is not the IBM talk then you need to go see the IBM talk.
16:57 < kanzure__> I have a copy on my server, though presently it's being copied over to another hdd.
17:04 < kanzure__> "Just wondering if anyone saw the Armistice Day service on TV?
17:04 < kanzure__> The last 3 surviving British WW1 veterans were able to attend;"
17:04 < kanzure__> One of them was 112 years old.
17:14 -!- gene_ is now known as gene
18:11 < UtopiahGHML> kanzure__: the SEEDmag video was 15min long so I guess it wasn't the IBM talk, Id like to have the link when the copy will be ready
18:15 < kanzure__> UtopiahGHML: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2874207418572601262&q=almaden+cognitive+computing
18:15 < kanzure__> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Henry_Markram_computational_neurosci_imitation_project
18:17 < UtopiahGHML> thank you
18:17 < kanzure__> He has something close to $100 million in funding, 125 postdocs in a dark room tapping away at terminals programming, the whole ordeal.
18:19 < UtopiahGHML> it means he can make people believe and hope in his project but hardly that he will succeed.
18:20 < UtopiahGHML> but as long as he's having fun and we can learn from the experience, I like it :P
18:24 < UtopiahGHML> btw do you have material on the soma part of the neuron and its ability to rewrite itself?
18:24 < kanzure__> The soma and rewriting itself?
18:24 < UtopiahGHML> Ive read about it in a textbook but since Im not expert in the subject I probably lack the correct vocabulary to find papers on this precise topic
18:24 < kanzure__> You're not talking about plasticity, are you?
18:24 < UtopiahGHML> nop
18:25 < UtopiahGHML> 1sec for the ref
18:25 < kanzure__> Try "synaptic plasticity", "excitability plasticity" and then a third type that I am currently forgetting.
18:25 < kanzure__> Excitability plasticity modifies the soma.
18:25 < UtopiahGHML> [1] "An introduction to brain and behavior"
18:25 < UtopiahGHML> Bryan Kolb, Ian Q. Whishaw from University of Lethbridge, Alberta
18:25 < UtopiahGHML> Worth Publisher 2005
18:25 < UtopiahGHML> page 78 "Even in a mature, full grown neuron, the cell's generative blueprint can <<reopened>>, allowing the neuron to alter its structure and function by producing new proteins."
18:25 < kanzure__> I took notes on these types actually ;-)
18:26 < kanzure__> "reopened" <- grammatical error?
18:26 < UtopiahGHML> reopen I guess
18:26 < kanzure__> You might have been had; that sounds like typical same-old-same-old genetic expression.
18:27 < kanzure__> * took notes (today)
18:27 < kanzure__> Anyway, I'm going off to lunch.
18:27 < kanzure__> When the server gets back up completely, the /books/mousebrain/ dir is worth exploring, as well as the brainonadisc dir.
18:27 < kanzure__> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Computational_neuroscience is a good substitute in the mean time
18:27 < kanzure__> http://heybryan.org/school/buildingbrains/
18:28 < kanzure__> http://heybryan.org/school/buildingbrains/all.html (not including the past three lectures though)
18:28 < kanzure__> I took 6 pages of notes, about 3500 words in a 40 minute period today. 
18:28 < kanzure__> Technically I should be able to type that in about half the time, but the professor stutters frequently. ;-)
18:28 < UtopiahGHML> already used mindmap to takes notes?
18:29 < kanzure__> Hrm?
18:29 < kanzure__> I just do audio->text translation for myself.
18:29 < kanzure__> if I start using mindmap I become Lion King and kill myself.
18:29 < kanzure__> Lion Kimbro, I mean.
18:29 < UtopiahGHML> ?
18:29 < kanzure__> http://www.speakeasy.org/~lion/nb/
18:30 < kanzure__> http://www.speakeasy.org/~lion/nb/html/doc003.html "If you do the things described in this book, you will be IMMOBILIZED for the duration of your commitment.The immobilization will come on gradually, but steadily. In the end, you will be incapable of doing anything."
18:30 < kanzure__> And he's absolutely right ..
18:31 < kanzure__> "How to make a complete map of every thought you think."
18:31 < UtopiahGHML> especially if you write that you are writting that you are writting that...
18:31 < kanzure__> You go so meta that you realize you've gone sub, somehow.
18:31 < kanzure__> Anyway, lunchtime.
18:32 < UtopiahGHML> I wanted to write a book called the century of meta
18:32 < UtopiahGHML> but I was too lazy
18:36 -!- gene_ is now known as gene
18:42 < UtopiahGHML> kanzure__: regarding Henry Markram ability to raise fund, I can bet that his investment in visualization played a key role.
21:52 < willPow3r> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsL6wNP_oJo
22:04 < fenn> hmm @ "shift in perception of property from commodity to bandwidth" (re eric hunting on land and capital)
22:08 < kanzure__> Wonder how much of that metaphor he has worked out.
22:10 < fenn> it certainly brings to mind many posthuman scenarios i've read about
22:15 < fenn> hah apparently he has been watching paranoia agent (The state of current car design just makes me want to go Shonen Bat on everybody)
22:17 < bkero> Current car design = Let's make it bigger, add more safety features, heavier, and make it more rounded.
22:18 < fenn> "beefy"
22:18  * bkero wants a car with 3-4 wheels, weighs under 600lbs, and is shorter than he is.
22:19 < fenn> dont forget the hover skirt
22:22  * xp_prg want to create a cell that using photovoltaics to make electricity using an electric eel type approach
22:23 < fenn> bkero: dunno if i've shown you these yet: http://fennetic.net/sketches/tadpole-plane-0.2-web.jpg http://fennetic.net/sketches/tadpole-0.1-web.jpg
22:24 < fenn> i should 3d model the plane i guess, and show wings attached
22:25 < fenn> anyway, aptera is close enough so just go buy one of theirs
22:28 < kanzure__> http://heybryan.org/shots/2008-11-12_glxgears.png
22:30 < fenn> i wonder if any of the mileage freaks have played with aerodynamically integrated radiator surfaces
22:30 < fenn> instead of a big box that requires air to be pushed through it constantly
22:35  * kanzure__ leaves for his algae
22:36 < fenn> enjoy
22:36  * fenn putters about aimlessly
22:37 < fenn> oo its almost time for robo-club
22:38 < ybit> http://www.umbel.org/
22:39 < fenn> this looks familiar
22:47 < ybit> that's what i said
22:47 < ybit> when it was shown to me
22:48 < bkero> kanzure__: I need to get you to send me some of those algae samples.
22:48 < bkero> Eugene is digesting algae for methane production, and they're just saying LOL WE'LL USE WHATS IN THE POND ALREADY
22:50 < fenn> not bad, but why not go with thermal depolymerization instead, that way you recover 100% of the embodied energy, and it's in a more convenient form (long chain hydrocarbons)
22:51 < fenn> greater capital investment is the barrier i guess
22:55 < fenn> gah i hate when i realize at the end of the article that i'd already read it several months ago
23:12 < ybit> http://fora.tv/2008/07/30/New_Ideas_New_Fuels_Craig_Venter_at_the_Oxonian -- wasn't this video linked from here?
23:40 -!- gene_ is now known as gene
23:40 < gene> equations for spirals instead of SVG, generate from library to STL thingy
23:40 < gene> CFD explanations
23:40 < gene> STL/autocad
--- Log closed Thu Nov 13 02:19:06 2008
--- Log opened Thu Nov 13 02:19:16 2008
02:19 -!- Irssi: #hplusroadmap: Total of 14 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 14 normal]
02:20 -!- Irssi: Join to #hplusroadmap was synced in 75 secs
03:23 -!- gene_ is now known as gene
03:24 < kanzure_> fennnnnnnn
03:24 -!- gene is now known as genehacker
03:24 < kanzure_> http://unptnt.com/
03:24 < kanzure_> http://signup.unptnt.com/
03:24 < kanzure_> Austin SKDB clone with possible venture capital funding
03:24 < kanzure_> D5v 
03:24 < genehacker> Kanzure, actlab has 0.3 repraps
03:25 < genehacker> they have all the electronics and a working extruder but not the frame
03:27 < genehacker> now I wonder...
03:27 < genehacker> ras has a CNC
03:27 < genehacker> maybe they could be joined
03:30 < kanzure_> "joined" ?
03:31 < kanzure_> fenn: Can you fix the licensing issue with Paul? He confuses me.
03:32 < kanzure_> bkero: Send algae request by email
03:33 < bkero> kanzure_: k
03:35 < willPow3r> know of any F/OSS geographical information systems?
03:38 < fenn> kanzure_: just slap a "distributed under the terms of the GNU GPL version 2 or later" at the top of your source files
03:39 < kanzure_> And what if he asks about the repo XML files?
03:39 < kanzure_> Should I slap up that line there too?
03:40 < fenn> since the repo data copyright belongs to someone else (?) you cant just do that
03:40 < kanzure_> Why not?
03:40 < kanzure_> I can just slap up that line in the first case..
03:40 < kanzure_> I don't see what's different
03:40 < fenn> because you technically arent allowed to redistribute it in the first place.. uh
03:40 < kanzure_> it was on the servers?
03:40 < fenn> you wrote the other stuff right?
03:40 < kanzure_> what are we talking about?
03:40 < kanzure_> I'm talking about the .repo files I guess
03:40 < kanzure_> the XML stuff.
03:41 < fenn> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/manufacturing/ http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/repo/ i think
03:41 < kanzure_> I mean, the designRepositoryEntryApp thing is GPL'ed
03:41 < kanzure_> ooh
03:41  * fenn actually looks at the links
03:41 < kanzure_> content added through a GPL'ed app is GPLed :p
03:41 < kanzure_> can I make up that statement?
03:41 < fenn> hey it's just pdf's
03:41 < kanzure_> /repo/ is not
03:42 < fenn> content added through a gpl app is not gpl
03:42 < fenn> it seems arbitrary but there are specific operations that make something a "derived work"
03:42 < kanzure_> specifically?
03:42 < fenn> linking to a binary for example
03:43 < fenn> or simply modifying a fil
03:43 < fenn> file
03:43 < fenn> you need to straighten this out upstream (at ADL)
03:44 < kanzure_> Okay.
03:44 < kanzure_> Technically the work that I'm doing at the moment does not suffer from licensing issues.
03:45 < kanzure_> I'm not using derived data from the repo, and just randomly generating it.
03:45 < fenn> <CreatorInfo CreatorFirstName="michael" CreatorLastName="orlando"> owns the copyright on that particular .repo
03:45 < kanzure_> Though I am 'linking' or whatever the hell it is in C# to a module of GraphSynth.
03:45 < fenn> i dont know about C#
03:46 < fenn> i'm almost surprised there arent any programs to help sort this legal stuff out
03:46 < kanzure_> how would these programs work?
03:47 < kanzure_> and would they sort their own licensing issues out?
03:47 < fenn> there would be various countries with sets of operators (laws) and licenses with sets of terms
03:48 < kanzure_> GLIN or Global Legal Information Network has some XML stuff like that btw
03:48 < kanzure_> I can't believe I know that.
03:48 < kanzure_> ugh
03:48 < kanzure_> see also legalxml
03:48  * kanzure_ cries
03:48 < fenn> it's too bad legal system turned out so subjective
03:49 < fenn> i'd like to know beforehand whether something i do is legal or not
03:49 < fenn> but currently it seems to be up to the whim of a judge
03:49 < fenn> based on their interpretation of "is" or "with intent"
03:49 < kanzure_> Uh, also the problem of an infinity law book
03:49 < fenn> eh?
03:50 < kanzure_> thou shalt not execute behavior 5555594914094155555
03:50 < kanzure_> crap, my random number generator is broken
03:50 < fenn> GLIN looks to be plain english (or whatever spoken language)
03:50 < kanzure_> I don't know where I picked up on it. It was probably somewhere that had "XML" near or on the page, and this was just an advertisement thingy. Sorry.
03:51 < fenn> why do we call them programming languages anyway?
03:52 < fenn> they're formalisms
03:52 < kanzure_> because of the cultures that develop around them?
03:52 < kanzure_> I don't know.
03:52 < kanzure_> Is this a trick question?
03:52  * fenn thnks
03:52 < fenn> nope no tricks
03:53 < fenn> got some good aspie time in tonight assimilating electronics components at robotics club
03:53 < kanzure_> Assimilating how? Scurrying them away into boxes and bins?
03:54 < fenn> yes, and also creating a sorting system for the bins
03:54 < fenn> the current system seems to be "random shuffle"
03:54 < kanzure_> boo random shuffle
03:54 < kanzure_> actually, when I had an electronics bench, my approach was "leave the men where they fall and die", those being the components
03:55 < fenn> good way to get a header pin stuck in your foot
03:55 < kanzure_> header pin?
03:55 < fenn> the gold jumper pins like on motherboards
03:55 < kanzure_> hrm, minor inconvenience
03:56 < fenn> well "leave things where they fall" doesnt exactly work with ten people using the same space
03:56 < kanzure_> right
03:57 < kanzure_> prultopia?
03:57 < kanzure_> proptopia
03:57 < kanzure_> prulotopia
03:57 < kanzure_> hrm
03:57 < fenn> root word is?
03:58 < kanzure_> the people working with unptnt.com
03:58 < kanzure_> it's a weird term
03:58 < kanzure_> p??r???topia???
03:59 < fenn> skdb != project hosting
03:59 < fenn> and what's the point of freeduino.. arduino is already free?
03:59 < kanzure_> don't know.
04:00 < kanzure_> skdb != project hosting, it's true, but that doesn't mean that we can't try to do some damage control and so on
04:00 < fenn> why are people giving them money?
04:01 < kanzure_> hell if I know, but the venture capitalist was standing right there next to me and seemed enthusiastic about this stuff.
04:01 < kanzure_> "is 'good will' an adequate explanation?"
04:02 < fenn> yes
04:02 < kanzure_> huh.
04:02 < fenn> but frankly it's not a viable business plan :)
04:02 < fenn> do they have 501c3 status?
04:02 < kanzure_> "super secret pre-pre-pre alpha"
04:02 < kanzure_> as if they want to go IPO on it? wtf?
04:03 < fenn> non profit is a tax status, it doesnt mean you cant make money
04:03 < kanzure_> oh, sorry, 501c3 is nonprofit
04:03 < kanzure_> 501c3's don't do IPOs
04:04 < fenn> however you're more likely to succeed i think, though the maximum possible payout is much lower (not millions of dollars)
04:04 < fenn> but wtf are people going to do with millions of dollars anyway
04:04 < fenn> blow it all on expensive handbags and wine
04:04 < kanzure_> it's "invisible" to the rest of us.
04:05 < fenn> i'd probably buy an island
04:06 < fenn> or maybe a really sweet dirigible
04:07 < fenn> then i'd fill it with hydrogen just to piss off all the idiots who think it's dangerous
04:07  * fenn has a sense of deja vu
04:10 < kanzure_> So I'm apparently a grad student to most people.
04:10 < kanzure_> I wonder if I could get a graduate standing position by lying about an undergraduate degree.
04:11 < fenn> i like the (Un) lightbulb
04:11 < fenn> i wonder if they will trademark it :)
04:11 < fenn> kanzure_: compared to most undergrads you might as well be a grad student
04:12 < kanzure_> compared to the grad students in the MAD lab (parent lab of ADL) I might as well be grad too
04:12 < fenn> however, colleges make money by forcing students to go through years of classes, so it's not easy to test your way through a whole degree
04:12 < kanzure_> well, there are the tests and exams, but I'm not good at supercramming and predicting what will be on the final/exam-accelerator-thingies
04:13 < kanzure_> In fact I'm not good on any test these days.
04:23 < kanzure_> uh oh
04:23 < kanzure_> external hdd has a bad superblock
04:23 < kanzure_> What do I do?
04:25 < fenn> reboot!
04:25 < fenn> the problem is in your gigabytes
04:25  * fenn mumbles something about ddrescue
04:27 < kanzure_> so one of the demonstrations at the actlab tonight for 'dorkbot' was a hdd converted into an mp3 player
04:28 < kanzure_> This was full audio from the hard drives.
04:28 < kanzure_> Something about a hdd working much like an amplifier.
04:30 < kanzure_> Okay. Server is back up. I'm somehow shorting the circuit on the desktop's motherboard though.
04:33 < fenn> yeah that originated on afrotech i think
04:34 < kanzure_> So I was wondering how high that sort of frequency could go. heh'
04:34 < kanzure_> It can do dog whistles, I know that much.
04:34  * kanzure_ is so cheap.
04:35 < fenn> inverse of seek time
04:35 < kanzure_> reciprocal?
04:36 < fenn> so 1/5ms = 200Hz
04:36 < kanzure_> are you sure it's in terms of ms units?
04:36 < kanzure_> because 1/.05 would be great
04:36 < fenn> i'm probably all wrong, since i know it can go higher than 200hz
04:42 < kanzure_> Grumble grumble. mocp crashed the server.
04:42 < genehacker> so the VC was interested in SKDB type things?
04:43 < genehacker> Fenn Zeppelin's are awesome
04:43 < kanzure_> Yes.
04:43 < genehacker> I'd love to build one
04:43 < fenn> i've had the "personal bicycle blimp" discussion many times
04:44 < kanzure_> So I've lost track of the conversation, what have I missed? Everything since I last sent a message.
04:45 < genehacker> yes
04:45 < fenn> 2340 kanzure quites 2342 kanzure joins.. nothing happened between
04:45 < genehacker> ah yes the ol bike blimp
04:45 < fenn> genehacker: even better if you can generate electricity with it while tethered
04:46 < fenn> (and use as a wifi/ronja relay of course)
04:46 < genehacker> ok, now I haven't heard of that one
04:46 < fenn> that was the plan when my plan was moving out to dialup boonies
04:48 < genehacker> so why would a VC be interested in stuff like this
04:49 < kanzure_> good will?
04:49 < genehacker> 2.???
04:50 < genehacker> 3.Profit
04:50 < genehacker> ?
04:51 < fenn> venturecat has no profit motive
04:51 < fenn> <insert picture of stray cat here>
04:51 < genehacker> so what they had was a project library?
04:51 < kanzure_> Nah, they're like github but for open hardware projects.
04:52 < genehacker> what's github
04:53 < kanzure_> it's a hub for git repositories.
04:53 < fenn> like sourceforge but less teh suck
04:55 < genehacker> was it something like instructables?
04:55 < kanzure_> No. Instructables is more about tutorials than it is about designs, files, repositories, forking, cloning, etc.
04:57 < kanzure_> One of the features that I'm pushing for is automated instruction generator,
04:57 < kanzure_> much like the origami work that we were talking about earlier this year.
04:57 < genehacker> did you tell them about that?
04:58 < kanzure_> No. It's hard to do a full brain dump in 5 minutes flat.
04:58 < genehacker> well you did tell them about autodesign
04:58 < genehacker> the automated design lab
04:58 < kanzure_> That's because of VOICED.
04:58 < fenn> one would hope they might be thinking about automated design
04:58 < genehacker> what's that?
04:59 < kanzure_> Virtual Organization for Innovative Conceptual Engineering Design
04:59 < kanzure_> I have NSF funding.
04:59 < genehacker> to do what again?
04:59 < kanzure_> SKDB, basically.
05:01 < genehacker> I missed the presentation what did he talk about again?
05:01 < kanzure_> http://unptnt.com/
05:02 < kanzure_> but also some other website that I can't remember the name of
05:02 < genehacker> replicators?
05:02 < kanzure_> No.
05:02 < kanzure_> prolotopia? prultopia? porotopia? prulatopia? prulatopia was probably it.
05:02 < genehacker> repository of product files ready to print off
05:03 < genehacker> open manufacturing processes?
05:03 < kanzure_> No, it's a website. Prolutopia or protopia or somesuch.
05:04 < genehacker> that's it?
05:04 < genehacker> just a website you collaborate with people on?
05:06  * ybit wants to read kanzure's response to paul on om mailing list
05:06 < genehacker> just a repository for stuff?
05:06 < ybit> concerning licensing
05:06 < genehacker> that's free?
05:06 < kanzure_> ybit: "Eat it"
05:06 < kanzure_> ybit: :-/
05:07 < kanzure_> genehacker: Well, that's the part that they're doing, and if they think they can get contributors then that's great, SKDB is more like the backend to their system if they want
05:08 < genehacker> so it looks like they'll sell either ads or support for the stuff on the website
05:08 < genehacker> nothing new there
05:08 < kanzure_> Huh?
05:08 < genehacker> at least on the front of it
05:09 < kanzure_> Nobody said it will be profitable.
05:10 < genehacker> so can I see the gear visualizer?
05:10 < kanzure_> One sec.
05:10 < kanzure_> Ah, I lost my logs from today. One more sec.
05:10 < genehacker> and what are you currently doing with that NSF funding?
05:11 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/shots/2008-11-12_glxgears.png
05:11 < kanzure_> NSF funding? Paycheck.
05:11 < kanzure_> and that's why we have project money in here now
05:11 < genehacker> what are they paying you for?
05:12 < kanzure_> My work.
05:12 < genehacker> writing gear code
05:12 < kanzure_> No, the gear stuff is just one side project.
05:12 < genehacker> So it looks to me like the gear visualizer might not be useful to our reverse engineering project
05:13 < kanzure_> Why?
05:13 < fenn> what's the big deal with the glxgears screenshot?
05:14 < kanzure_> dunno, somebody wanted to see it I guess
05:14 < kanzure_> and was apparently impressed
05:14 < kanzure_> heh'
05:14 < kanzure_> "ooh! pretty!"
05:14 < fenn> ooh a demo program!
05:14 < kanzure_> "I feel like we're doing something productive!"
05:14 < genehacker> oh no bryan
05:14 < genehacker> I wasn't impressed
05:14 < kanzure_> No, I'm not talking about you
05:14 < genehacker> I knew what you did
05:14 < genehacker> heh
05:14 < fenn> kanzure_: maybe if it were in flash, with an AJAX frontend and SQL server
05:15 < kanzure_> fenn: You know I hate myself for writing all this stupid AJAX stuff, yes?
05:15 < fenn> why is it called AJAX again?
05:15 < kanzure_> asynchronous javascript and xml
05:16 < genehacker> unless the software  for making the gears can be used to figure out the right combination of gears such that the ammunition dispensing piston and the cartridge advancer move at different times so they don't jam up
05:16 < fenn> "Despite the name, the use of JavaScript, XML, or its asynchronous use is not required." Buzzword Alert!
05:16 < genehacker> then it's pretty much useless to us
05:16 < kanzure_> genehacker: yeah, Albert's software can do that
05:17 < genehacker> really?
05:17 < kanzure_> fenn: wtf is it if it's not js/xml/asynchreneity ?
05:17 < kanzure_> does PHP+flash count? isn't that just php+flash then?
05:17 < genehacker> I explain to you how the cartridge advancer and ammunition dispenser piston work right?
05:18 < kanzure_> I don't know
05:18 < genehacker> well then
05:18 < genehacker> looks like I might have to send you something
05:18 < fenn> machine gun mechanism is pretty simple and reliable
05:18 < genehacker> this is a machine catapult fenn
05:18 < genehacker> it's a bit different
05:19 < fenn> what's the power source?
05:19 < fenn> i'd be tempted to make a giant mini-mag (paintball gun type) using compressed air
05:20 < genehacker> ideal power source: tamiya gearbox
05:20 < genehacker> power source I am likely to use: hand crank
05:20 < fenn> ever taken apart an airsoft gun?
05:21 < genehacker> no
05:21 < fenn> that's basically a tamiya gearbox
05:21 < genehacker> a tamiya gearbox isn
05:21 < genehacker> a special name for a mechanism
05:21 < genehacker> it's a brand name
05:21 < fenn> yes i know
05:22 < fenn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:AEG.gif
05:22 < genehacker> http://www.tamiyausa.com/product/item.php?product-id=70103
05:22 < genehacker> this is what I mean by tamiya gear box
05:22 < genehacker> holy crap
05:23 < genehacker> that's pretty much my mechanism
05:23 < genehacker> but a bit different
05:23 < genehacker> FACEPALM
05:23 < genehacker> I just reinvented the wheel
05:23 < fenn> congratulations, you are now an engineer
05:24 < genehacker> though
05:24 < genehacker> this is an automated catapult
05:25 < genehacker> meaning it uses an arm to throw projectiles
05:25 < genehacker> it also uses plastic pigs
05:26 < genehacker> which aren't round like balls
05:26 < fenn> that's why you stuff them in short sections of pvc pipe
05:26 < genehacker> which means I can't load them in a hopper and shoot them as easily
05:26 < fenn> hoppers dont work well even for balls
05:26 < genehacker> HAHAHAHAHA PVC pipe
05:26 < genehacker> Fenn, I'm printing this out on a 3d printer
05:26 < fenn> why/
05:27 < genehacker> because that's what the assignment is
05:27 < fenn> waste of resin
05:27 < fenn> sigh... nevermind
05:27 < genehacker> what 3d printers use resin?
05:27 < fenn> go stick your head in the sand please
05:27 < genehacker> this one uses plastic
05:27 < fenn> FDM?
05:27 < genehacker> yeah
05:27 < kanzure_> SLS
05:27 < genehacker> nope
05:28 < genehacker> but we might have to use the SLS
05:28 < genehacker> given the FDMs
05:28 < genehacker> current condition
05:28 < fenn> if you're making large numbers of identical plastic pigs, why not do injection moulding?
05:28 < fenn> or blow moulding
05:28 < genehacker> not printing that
05:29 < fenn> you could 3d print a blow mould
05:29 < genehacker> I see no need to
05:30 < fenn> jello mould
05:30 < genehacker> you do have a point there
05:30 < fenn> "made from real pig parts (tm)"
05:31 < genehacker> the printer doesn't have that kind of resolution
05:31 < fenn> oo it would be cool if you could make a pig shaped hotdog
05:31 < genehacker> meat shaped like meat?
05:32 < fenn> you could make a meat/jello slurry and cast it in blow-moulded cellulose wrappers
05:32 < fenn> or whatever the aburage process is called in english
05:33 < genehacker> I don't want to 3d model a pig
05:33 < genehacker> there's no way I could do that
05:33 < fenn> i thought that was the whole point
05:35 < fenn> http://www.turbosquid.com/FullPreview/Index.cfm/ID/204391
05:35 < fenn> $35 pig STL
05:36 < fenn> but i'm sure you can do that
05:37 < fenn> what are rubber duckies made of?
05:37 < genehacker> I could buy 432 plastic pigs for that price
05:37 < genehacker> depends
05:38 < kanzure_> Hm. Homework or sleep?
05:38 < genehacker> Homework
05:38 < genehacker> sleep is for slackers
05:39 < genehacker> Hmm...
05:39 < kanzure_> It's weird, I can do allnighters when it interests me, but otherwise it just tires me.
05:39 < kanzure_> Sleep.
05:39  * kanzure_ sleeps
05:39 < genehacker> so you said that software can do phase and stuff?
05:40 < genehacker> phases I mean
05:40 < fenn> what software?
05:40 < genehacker> gear software that kanzure's talking about
05:42 < kanzure_> What does phase refer to when talking about gears?
05:43 < kanzure_> Albert Swantner <aswantner@gmail.com> has the source code. Maybe he will send it if you ask really really nicely.
05:43 < genehacker> as I go through a rotation thing A happens over theta degrees
05:43 < genehacker> thing B happens at theta + x degrees
05:44 < bkero> fenn: Did the LOVE guy ever get back to you?
05:44 < genehacker> IE as I turn the crank, the piston goes in and out of the cartridge before the cartridge is advanced
05:44 < kanzure_> yeah, angle is in this
05:45 < genehacker> could you ask him?
05:45 < kanzure_> About angles?
05:46 < genehacker> yeah
05:46 < genehacker> if you could 
05:46 < kanzure_> I know that it's in the system.
05:46 < kanzure_> because it's a requirement for the file format that he and I talked about ;-)
05:46 < genehacker> you might be thinking of teeth angle
05:46 < kanzure_> No.
05:46 < kanzure_> No teeth angle information.
05:46 < genehacker> not phase angle
05:46 < genehacker> well it might help me a lot
05:47 < genehacker> I've been doing some calculations and have been getting some weird results
05:47 < genehacker> which means that either my math is wrong
05:47 < genehacker> or that it doesn't work
05:48 < fenn> bkero: no
05:49 < bkero> :(
05:49 < kanzure_> Does anybody remember that latest game that demoed an ability to go through 4 or 5 dimensions at once?
05:49 < kanzure_> Something about being able to stretch things through the dimensions and making really cool use of the monitor.
05:49 < kanzure_> I'd like to see if there's an API for applying that to generalized N dimensional data sets, like my graph permutation tree.
05:49 < fenn> curved spaces?
05:49 < kanzure_> was that the name of the game?
05:50 < kanzure_> The name might have had something like 'crystal' in its title.
05:50 < genehacker> dang
05:51 < genehacker> 5 dim game?
05:51 < kanzure_> It was a space shooter of some sort.
05:51 < kanzure_> Steve will know.
05:51 < kanzure_> Which IRC network did I leave Steve on?
05:51 < genehacker> I've been trying to find some 3d glasses so I can try out stereo rendering on my computer
05:52 < fenn> genehacker: you know the polarized glasses + saran wrap trick?
05:52 < genehacker> no
05:52 < genehacker> I need anaglyph glasses 
05:52 < genehacker> I do know the trick however
05:54 < genehacker> http://www.geometrygames.org/CurvedSpaces/
05:54 < genehacker> do you mean this kanzure?
05:54 < fenn> for some reason i think of your nick as being a real name, like "eugene a. hacker"
05:54 < genehacker> crap
05:55 < genehacker> my true identity has been revealed
05:55 -!- genehacker is now known as gene
05:55 -!- gene is now known as anon
05:56 < fenn> surprised that isnt taken already
05:56 < kanzure_> watch him be kicked in a few minutes.
05:56 < anon> How did you know my middle name started with an a though?
05:57 < fenn> i'm psychic
05:57 < anon> heh
05:58 < fenn> being psychic is not particularly desirable
05:59 < anon> indeed
05:59 < fenn> you know all sorts of things like "i'm going to miss the train" and then it happens and you're still stuck
05:59 < anon> especially if you know what I am thinking of right now
05:59 < fenn> indeed.
06:00 < kanzure_> The actlab keeps a kid around by the name of Drake. He finished uni at age 13, and has hung around ever since and is now 18 or 19 or something. They call him their 'resident genius'. So tonight he was talking about some markov models for speech recognition for a game of telephone with robots whispering words to each other, as well as some infrared LED message passing protocols. Not sure how much 'genius' it takes for that, except the uni thing. Dal
06:01 < kanzure_> why doesn't irssi split up my messages.
06:02 < anon> Is he the guy that started teh reprap?
06:02 < kanzure_> No.
06:02 < fenn> gah anon get out of my mind
06:02 < kanzure_> Brandon started reprap.
06:02 < kanzure_> Brandon Wiley also did freenet and bittorrent work
06:02 < anon> indeed
06:03 < kanzure_> maradydd's husband bunked with whoever did bittorrent originally
06:03 < fenn> bram cohen?
06:03 < kanzure_> yeah, that guy.
06:03 < kanzure_> Apparently Bram married a superpornstar.
06:03  * fenn wonders what that means
06:03 < kanzure_> quite literally a porn star.
06:04 < kanzure_> aspied his way into that one.
06:04 < anon> I don't understand how that is possible
06:04 < anon> social engineering?
06:05 < kanzure_> Mostly social engineering of himself more than anything else.
06:06 < fenn> i find it highly improbable that this isnt mentioned on wikipedia
06:08 < fenn> http://valleywag.com/5067348/bram-cohens-wife-comes-to-his-defense
06:11 < kanzure_> Jenna Cohen. There we go.
06:19 < fenn> so i just need to write awful stories and the babes will come looking for me?
06:21 < anon> no you have to aspie
06:21 < fenn> i think generally that's the problem
07:51 < bkero> Mmm mmm dillo dillo
13:50 < willPow3r> im installing mapguide opensouce on my linux server
13:50 < kanzure_> What is it?
13:51 < willPow3r> its for collecting and distributing geospatial data over the web
13:51 < willPow3r> http://www.opengeospatial.org/
13:52 < kanzure_> Gah, their 'standards' page.
13:52 < willPow3r> i'm trying to find a complementary copy of autocad map 3d
13:52 < kanzure_> CityGML sounds worth clicking.
13:53 < kanzure_> Autocad map 3D, eh? I haven't heard of Autocad doing any mapping stuff.
13:53 < willPow3r> its really just hosting software
13:53 < kanzure_> Hosting how?
13:53 < kanzure_> An HTTP server daemon?
13:53 < willPow3r> believe it or not, autodesk made an opensource version
13:53 < willPow3r> yeah
13:53 < willPow3r> apache extensions more or less
13:53 < kanzure_> Fun stuff.
13:53 < kanzure_> I'll have to look into that.
13:54 < willPow3r> its like google earth with overlays for collected geographical data
13:54 < kanzure_> I'm trying to determine where opengeospatial.org is keeping data. 
13:54 < willPow3r> the only problem i can find is that most corporations are going to keep that data secret
13:54 < willPow3r> the data they find while searching for petroleum etc.
13:54 < kanzure_> Right.
13:55 < kanzure_> There's actually a US govt office for keeping track of that information.
13:55 < kanzure_> I don't have the link off the top of my head, but I might have something in /books/ including the data set.
13:55 < willPow3r> exactly, noaa etc. keep all that online
13:55 < kanzure_> It's basically a very poor geographical annotation/markup of major mines and so on
13:55 < kanzure_> NOAA is it?
13:55 < willPow3r> http://data.geocomm.com/catalog/index.html
13:55 < willPow3r> well, they're only one of the agencies that keeps data like that
13:56 < willPow3r> and, apparently, this geospatial data can be fed into autocad somehow
13:56 < willPow3r> i'm trying to figure that out
13:56 < kanzure_> Yeah, so what I was originally thinking of doing was to come up with this giant index of material suppliers worldwide, but in a reverse manner
13:56 < kanzure_> see, the major trading websites keep their 'supply network' behind closed doors even once you register and ask for bids on projects
13:56 < willPow3r> suppliers by material?
13:56 < kanzure_> yeah, sort of
13:56 < kanzure_> There's the mindat.org dataset, which tries to do that, then there's my latest matweb.com dataset;
13:57 < kanzure_> then with the NOAA dataset, I was hoping I could do some cross-reference,
13:57 < kanzure_> and if there's some locations that aren't in the mindat.org dataset, then feed those into Google Maps and try to figure out what business exists at those geocoords
13:57 < kanzure_> and then somehow figure out their URL.
13:57 < kanzure_> (URLs mapped to geographical areas .. blah, what has this world come to.)
13:58 < kanzure_> Alright, I'm off to calculus.
13:58 < willPow3r> have fun
13:59 < willPow3r> http://66.75.6.181 <-- my opensource mapguide server
13:59 < willPow3r> it works, apparently
14:00 < willPow3r> at least the compiled-from-source apache daemon does
14:10 < willPow3r> hmm. how in the fuck does an oss project rely on an expensive ESRI database server?
14:13 < willPow3r> oh nm. it can use mysql
15:33 < bkero> lol
17:56 < UtopiahGHML> B citizen only : http://www.indymedia.org.uk/images/2004/05/292199.jpg
18:13 < kanzure__> http://www.math.ucsd.edu/~sbuss/CourseWeb/CSE167_2003F/final/jordan_matthew_gordon/
18:18 < kanzure__> It's a Star Wars game they made for a final. :)
18:18  * kanzure__ was thinking of making an xwing cameo appearance in the gear thingy
19:27 < UtopiahGHML> http://fr.news.yahoo.com/2/20081113/thl-electrostimulation-du-cerveau-une-re-96993ab.html
19:27 < fenn> ubuntu will be making a ARM Cortex-A8/9 port: http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS9527593286.html
19:27 < fenn> this will be good for beagleboard
19:28 < fenn> and other mobile computing shenanigans
19:32 < bkero> Yea
19:32 < UtopiahGHML> Five-Year Follow-up of Bilateral Stimulation of the Subthalamic Nucleus in Advanced Parkinson's Disease http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/349/20/1925 
19:32 < bkero> They're expecting an ARM netbook
19:32 < bkero> Which would be fucking awesome
19:32 < bkero> Also, handhelds.org already has an ubuntu arm port :{
19:32 < bkero> :P
19:33 < UtopiahGHML> http://beagleboard.org/ "ultra-low cost, high performance, low power OMAP3 based platform "
19:38 < UtopiahGHML> (woops didn't see you were actually already mentionning beagleboard :)
19:44 < bkero> I have a beagle board :)
19:44 < bkero> It's a fun little critter
19:45 < bkero> And it can be powered by USB - badass
19:47 < fenn> bkero: what are you doing with it?
19:50 < bkero> fenn: gentooizing :)
19:51 < bkero> As far as a purpose, I'm not sure yet.
19:51 < fenn> well looks like the $100 laptop is finally here, from hong kong: http://www.jointech.com.hk/jl7100.html
19:51 < bkero> uh
19:52 < bkero> 64mb ram, 64mb rom, alright
19:52 < fenn> "what" you say, "its not green?"
19:52 < fenn> certainly not enough ram, but that seems to be the way these things go for some reason
19:52 < bkero> I wonder how much they would cost without windows XP.
19:52 < fenn> win CE
19:53 < fenn> there's no XP ARM port
19:53 < bkero> Screenshots are XP
19:53 < UtopiahGHML> bkero: have you tried to add a tiny multitouch screen to make a modile device (a la Internet Tablet)
19:53  * fenn cant tell one grassy knoll from another
19:53 < bkero> UtopiahGHML: No, I already had a nokia 770 for that
19:53 < bkero> fenn: show me a screenshot of a windows ce grassy knoll
19:54 < bkero> Wait....That's an Eee 701.  I owned one
19:54 < UtopiahGHML> bkero: tried the N810 Wimax?
19:54 < bkero> It's white, but that's it
19:55 < bkero> UtopiahGHML: My friend has an N800, used it for a while.  He also works for clearwire, which is behind wimax.  It's fucking vaporware until you can buy service and hardware.
19:55 < UtopiahGHML> N810 Wimax has ... Wimax and you have some ISP in Moscow and tests in Paris
19:56 < fenn> are you talking about 802.11n?
19:56 < bkero> fenn: That laptop, look at the right side.  USB ports, VGA port, SD card port are all in the same spot.  The LCD bumpstops are in the same place.  Same mouse, same power button
19:56 < bkero> It's an Eee 701 without branding
19:56 < fenn> bkero: they all look like that
19:57 < bkero> No dude, I've owned an Eee 701, and now a Dell Mini Inspiron 9.  I know what they all look like
19:57 < bkero> Three of my friends have them, I see them at my house all the time
19:57 < bkero> There is not a single physical difference besides the badge shape on the top
20:00 < UtopiahGHML> bkero: heard any N810 but more "up to date" (kind of old HW now)
20:01 < bkero> You want a newer internet tablet?
20:01 < UtopiahGHML> and open, unlike Archos and such
20:02 < UtopiahGHML> (didn't try them personnaly but I asked in the channel and guys there say it was Linux but still not really that open)
20:02 < bkero> There aren't any
20:02 < UtopiahGHML> :\
20:02 < bkero> Nokia published the distro they're using, called maemo
20:02 < UtopiahGHML> yep I checked that
20:02 < UtopiahGHML> but it doesn't have real VGA out does it? Id like that too ;)
20:03 < bkero> Just get a small laptop and call it good
20:03 < bkero> Eee 900A's are at best buy for $280 now
20:03 < UtopiahGHML> I have an X31 
20:03 < bkero> N810 is about as good as you're going to get
20:03 < UtopiahGHML> k, thanks
20:04 < bkero> You could get an iPhone and use video out :P
20:05 < UtopiahGHML> not the most open device out there :/
20:07 < kanzure__> ADL needs a grad student.
20:08 < fenn> oo oo me me
20:10 < kanzure__> fenn: Are you serious?
20:10 < fenn> yep
20:10 < kanzure__> Do you want me to put in a word for you?
20:11 < fenn> uh.. i guess
20:11 < fenn> i want you to help me figure out what is going on in professor/administrator's mind
20:11 < kanzure__> excuse me?
20:12 < fenn> ok so i'll apply and then when they dont respond you can ask them
20:12 < kanzure__> btw, what was your SMIRF stuff? How was it supposed to 'improve' anything? was it "wait until you get 10,000 pieces of user feedback"? We're thinking of doing some smybolic regression analysis where we 'co-evolve' a simulator to provide smooth user feedback, because user feedback is too scattered. 
20:13 < kanzure__> fenn: I could walk down the hall.
20:13 < fenn> smooth user feedback?
20:13 < kanzure__> Imagine user clicking on "hot or not" for 20 times
20:13 < fenn> smirf was basically MMO x CAD x open source
20:13 < kanzure__> 20 data points is not enough to get a good function going there
20:14 < kanzure__> but what if you had regression on there
20:14 < kanzure__> and try to figure out a good function?
20:14 < kanzure__> Then you have your 'generator' ping back the 'smoothalizer' (instead of directly to the user)
20:14 < fenn> 20 data points isnt enough?
20:14 < kanzure__> if your graph has 300 nodes, and you've generated 10,000 graphs
20:15 < kanzure__> 20 clicks of "I hate this, I hate this", just narrows it down to you possibly hating just substitution rules with IDs <list here> ..
20:15 < fenn> hmm
20:15 < kanzure__> I'm only asking because of SMIRF, not because of the need for a grad student
20:16 < fenn> smirf was born out of the gaping hole in open source cad software
20:16 < fenn> it's not automated design
20:16 < kanzure__> "challenge the players to enhance the physics simulation"
20:16 < fenn> however, there was supposed to be a sort of "realtime" FEA and physics simulation
20:16 < fenn> so you could play with the design, instead of having a dead static drawing
20:17 < fenn> and it would do stuff in the world, slowly replacing dungeons&dragons style "points" systems with procedural simulations
20:17 < fenn> that's what all the alpha/beta star chaotic orbit is about
20:17 < fenn> so you can look up in the sky and see "magic is loose in the world!"
20:18 < fenn> to borrow a quote from heinlein :)
20:18 < fenn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldo_(short_story)
20:30 < kanzure__> Hm. Hod talks of an integrated robotic design+manufacture machine.
20:30 < kanzure__> for "robotic ecologies". 
20:31 < kanzure__> so he uses agency as a means of bridging the gap, that's peculiar. 
20:31 < kanzure__> I think I was talking about this on SL4 once.
20:31 < fenn> agency?
20:32 < kanzure__> Basically if you have this 'robot' that you are testing in an unknown, unpredictable environment, you wonder what the minimal set of programs you send with the robot/machine into that environment for problem solving.
20:32 < fenn> that doesnt make sense
20:32 < kanzure__> Something about bounding maximal return on investment or somesuch.
20:32 < kanzure__> no, it doesn't.
20:32 < fenn> if you dont know what to include you should include as much as possible
20:32 < kanzure__> This was an email from 2006, so nevermind
20:32 < kanzure__> I shouldn't talk about things I haven't seen in forever
20:33 < kanzure__> Anyway, they do "robot ecologies" so that they have agency for context sniffing to figure out what a bette design might be.
20:33 < kanzure__> *better
20:34 < kanzure__> (and instead of the sniffing information to go directly back to the GA search tree, it goes back to a simulator; the simulator then remains consistent to the environment, plus or minus weird predictions, so that the GA-of-the-robot-tree can ping the simulator and get back more smooth information to figure out optimal designs)
20:38 < nsh> http://www.princeton.edu/main/news/archive/S22/60/95O56/index.xml?section=topstories
20:38 < nsh> (don't forget, guys, everyone is painfully stupid)
20:39  * fenn braces for the impact
20:40 < fenn> yeah, conserved sequences
20:40 < fenn> is this news?
20:42 < kanzure__> http://3dprintables.org/
20:49 < nsh> kanzure_, can you access http://scitation.aip.org/getpdf/servlet/GetPDFServlet?filetype=pdf&id=PRLTAO000100000025258103000001&idtype=cvips
20:50 < nsh> (Physical Review Letters)
20:50 < kanzure__> Hm. An interesting approach would be to just say "how far can we push automated design and of what". That would be fun. It would give us an excuse for the automated design of really big things.
20:53 < nsh> kanzure_?
20:54 < nsh> nm
20:57 < UtopiahGHML> http://www.voltaicsystems.com/bag_generator.shtml so expensive :/
21:02 < kanzure__> "We address the issues of Fully Automated Design (FAD), .." starts one Lipson paper.
21:07 < kanzure__> "               That is why we first focus and develop the
21:07 < kanzure__> conventional algorithms for conservatively simulating
21:07 < kanzure__> structures, and then parallelize into agents, rather than
21:07 < kanzure__> hoping some simple pre-programmed behavior primitives
21:07 < kanzure__> will scale. 
21:17 < kanzure__> http://dhcp-84-253.me.utexas.edu/lipson.zip
21:20 < kanzure__> fenn: You'd have to do a phone interview with him probably.
21:22 < kanzure__> nsh: http://dhcp-84-253.me.utexas.edu/PhysRevLett_100_258103.pdf
21:22 < UtopiahGHML> Subthalamic Nucleus Stimulation in Severe Obsessive.Compulsive Disorder http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/short/359/20/2121 (that was the article I wanted to share...)
21:23 < kanzure__> Does it increase OCD?
21:24 < UtopiahGHML> :)
21:24 < UtopiahGHML> Conclusions These preliminary findings suggest that stimulation of the subthalamic nucleus may reduce the symptoms of severe forms of OCD but is associated with a substantial risk of serious adverse events. 
21:25 < kanzure__> Not interested.
21:25 < kanzure__> Show me what increases OCD and then I'll start to be interested.
21:25 < UtopiahGHML> why increase OCD
21:27 < kanzure__> It's one of the ways you tweak variables, so that you know that your variable you think you have is really associated with what you're observing.
21:27 < kanzure__> It becomes very obvious when you shine a laser in your eye.
21:28 < UtopiahGHML> if the technique stimulate to inhibit I guess it could also be used to do the opposite when knowledge on the topic will improve
21:29 < procto> the problem with tweaking the variables in your very perception system
21:30 < procto> is that you can only feel that difference that you mentioned when things are back to "baseline"
21:30 < procto> except you may not necessarily know when you're truly at baseline again, if ever
21:31 < kanzure__> fenn: re: your question about fab@home; the reason why is because it was an attempt to promote the solid freeform design technique. That was the purpose of the device apparently.
21:31 < fenn> what was my question?
21:36 < kanzure__> why doesn't he just drop it and go with reprap
21:39 < fenn> the lasercut plexi thing is redundant
21:40 < fenn> reprap would benefit from having new device heads, and they could standardize (gasp)
21:40 < fenn> not to mention it would cost about $2k less
21:49 < kanzure__> uh oh
21:49 < kanzure__> "ADL" as in [A]DL (designs of instances of automation) or ADL as in design automation.
21:50 < kanzure__> Huh, I didn't notice that difference in interpretation originally
21:50 < kanzure__> but it can be read both ways
21:53 < fenn> derr... what?
21:53 < fenn> automated design means one thing
21:53 < kanzure__> [automated design] lab = that one thing
21:54 < fenn> why do you add brackets?
21:54 < kanzure__> [automated] (design lab) = the other one. 
21:54 < kanzure__> A pathetic attempt at emphasis.
21:54 < fenn> its the same thing though
21:54 < kanzure__> well I guess I am assuming some leeway in the tense, but I'm trying to point out the distinction between just working in a bubble versus designing automations.
21:54 < fenn> second case brings to mind robots typing away at computers for some reason though :)
21:55 < kanzure__> think of it as a command: "Design automation, lab! do it or else the robots will take over the world."
21:55 < fenn> hrm
21:55 < kanzure__> see the difference?
21:55 < fenn> i know what you're saying but i dont think the words fit the concept
21:56 < fenn> so how does one go about applying for grad school...
21:57 < kanzure__> yes they do. "Automated design" can mean both (1) the automation of the design process and (2) the same sense as "Blackened Car Lab"
21:57 < kanzure__> ugh, Blackened is a bad example ..
21:57 < kanzure__> Furrowed Eyebrow Lab.
21:57 < fenn> adjective has to apply to both (object of study) and (laboratories)
21:57 < fenn> expensive technology lab
21:58 < kanzure__> yeah, that's sufficiently amibguous to illustrate the point
22:02 < fenn> huh grad school has tuition?
22:02 < fenn> i thought i was signing up for slave labor
22:06 < kanzure__> http://www.utexas.edu/business/accounting/pubs/tf_gradsem.pdf
22:06 < kanzure__> classes.
22:11 < fenn> ah the problem is that "design" is a verb, not a noun
22:11 < fenn> i think its called a gerund
22:15 < kanzure__> hm?
22:16 < fenn> linguistics
22:16 < kanzure__> Automated Walking Lab v. what?
22:16 < kanzure__> I mean, is ADL the 'walking' version?
22:16 < kanzure__> I've confused myself.
22:17 < fenn> Automated Designing Lab vs Automated Creation Lab
22:17 < fenn> dammit
22:17 < fenn> they can all be used as verbs
22:17 < fenn> Automated Creature Lab 
22:17 < fenn> Automated Creating Lab
22:17 < fenn> there.
22:18 < kanzure__> Automated Designs Lab
22:18 < kanzure__> ah, creating. 
22:18 < fenn> that works too
22:18 < kanzure__> interesting how that interpretation was resting in the ambiguity of the name.
22:19 < UtopiahGHML> Im watching a documentary called Losers and Winners (2006) on german factory being dissaembled to be re-assembled in China. They directly bring chinese workers in Germany to do so and put numbers on each piece of the factory to build it back in China. I can't even imagine the impact on reprap/fablab in the long run...
22:19 < kanzure__> There's a company called Matrix Services that does that.
22:20 < kanzure__> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Engineering_Expo_2008#.2A.2A_Matrix_Service_Company_FTW
22:21 < UtopiahGHML> I didn't know it reached those levels...
22:21 < kanzure__> :)
22:21 < kanzure__> levels?
22:22 < fenn> semi-automated disassembly and reassembly lab :)
22:22 < UtopiahGHML> level of globalization, directly shipping the factory from the west to the cheaper country thanks to their worker traveling on place and rebuilt the whole thing there
22:22 < UtopiahGHML> I thought they would ... I dunno, just make new cheaper one there or sth
22:22 < fenn> yay free trade agreements
22:23 < UtopiahGHML> I didn't really think about it before
22:24 < kanzure__> so there's a difference between just designing in a vacuum and designing for case studies requiring automation. It's hard to emphasize the difference.
22:24 < kanzure__> I think that's what the different wording emphasizes at least
22:24 < kanzure__> maybe my translator is broken
22:25 < fenn> the difference is that automated design can create manually operated equipment
22:25 < kanzure__> or one-off equipment stuff, yeah.
22:25 < fenn> but automated designs excludes them
22:26 < fenn> one is a process, another is a set of information
22:26 < kanzure__> It would be cool to use this as an excuse to get companies to let me study their automation. yay trade secrets..
22:26 < UtopiahGHML> (and thinking about it reprap/fablab produced equipement will be even more prone to piloted automation since the design will be entirely software manipulated, duh I need to think about the effect/consequences a bit more)
22:27 < kanzure__> ;-)
22:28 < fenn> UtopiahGHML: that hasn't been the case so far
22:28 < fenn> reprap is very labor intensive
22:29 < kanzure__> theoretically 'flexible manufacturing' could do allow for that to some extent, little cars that have giant robot arms on them moving around to make for some new system or something
22:29 < UtopiahGHML> fenn: well when I see how outdated Ive been regarding relocalization (viewing the documentary) Im starting to reconsiderate the whole process
22:30 < UtopiahGHML> Ill ask my friends who work on those topics in eastern Europe, that's actually what they are doing for car manufacturers
22:30 < UtopiahGHML> (new assembly lines, they don't even use top-notch automation there since labor cost is too low against machines)
22:31 < kanzure__> That's only because the consultants get hundreds of millions for "look! an industrial robot! future tech! woo-woo-woo"
22:31 < kanzure__> woo-woo-woo is supposed to mean hand waving I guess
22:33 < kanzure__> fenn: I missed what you said about the distinction, one being about the process and one being about the information (designs (plural)). 
22:33 < kanzure__> actually 'automated designs lab' doesn't have to mean just those designs that are of automated things, but also automated [designs lab]. design management and such.
22:36 < UtopiahGHML> (btw the doc. is on a coke factory, coke derived from coal)
22:36 < kanzure__> I suppose this goes back to the other basics I've been meaning to fix anyway, the expression of an adequate design
22:36 < kanzure__> 'adequacy' in design is a good topic in of itself because machinists are always yelling back up here at the so-called designers about how impossible these schematics are
22:37 < kanzure__> (not really, but I know they're cursing down there)
22:39 < fenn> well they should be
22:39 < fenn> yelling back up i mean
22:39 < kanzure__> And of course the determinant of adequacy is (corny "ta-da" here) whether or not the design can be translated into reality. ("it from bit")
22:40 < fenn> not really
22:40 < fenn> if you specify .00001" tolerance on a decorative plaque, that's not an adequate design
22:41 < fenn> it's physically possible to make, but the cost to benefit ratio is just off the scale
22:42 < fenn> theoretically anything is possible
22:42 < UtopiahGHML> is that a theory?
22:42 < fenn> designs coming from an academic setting often have high cost to benefit ratio :\
22:43 < kanzure__> uh
22:43 < kanzure__> translated into reality 
22:44 < fenn> example: fab@home vs reprap
22:44 < kanzure__> huh?
22:44 < fenn> same capabilities, different price
22:44 < kanzure__> No, you misunderstand me. physically possible as in, "here, I've done it using cheap tools"
22:44  * kanzure__ hands you something autodesignedthingy
22:44 < fenn> that's a weird interpretation of physically possible
22:45 < fenn> did you know guys in the 1800's scraped granite plates to within a millionth of an inch, with files and abrasive?
22:45 < kanzure__> hrm.
22:45 < kanzure__> but seriously, I meant with available tools, and specifically not ridiculously unavailable machines.
22:46 < kanzure__> so 'physically possible' is, yes, not an adequate definition
22:47 < fenn> services like ponoko are changing the landscape of "available machinery"
22:47 < kanzure__> I posted to openmanufacturing earlier about a way to do ponoko, with possibly lower margins if automated cargo loading is done
22:48 < fenn> i'm an autonomy freak though, so renting time on a machine in some indeterminate location somewhere on earth doesn't appeal to me
22:49 < kanzure__> right.
22:50 < kanzure__> somebody at dorkbot brought their "forearm-mounted electricity generator". wind-up toy. Was supposed to look like a time machine. Didn't work :(
22:50 < kanzure__> (the time machine aspect, I mean.)
22:50 < fenn> time machine?
22:50 < fenn> i was just talking about human powered electricity generators last night
22:51 < fenn> a string going from the shoe to a wind up "yank cord" generator on your belt, to provide power for mobile computers
22:51 < fenn> parasitic drag from walking n stuff
22:52 < fenn> this guy in robo club made a compact 12V jiggle generator, embedded in a gandalf-ish walking staff, so it lights up when you hold it a certain way
22:52 < fenn> with built-in ultracaps
22:55 < kanzure__> http://nsf.gov/awardsearch/showAward.do?AwardNumber=0742791
22:56 < fenn> i was telling him to build the tech into a carpenter's hammer, for ideal nail-striking illumination
23:02 < kanzure__> fenn: VC: chalstrom.com
23:11 < kanzure__> Okay, I'm about to leave.
23:11 < kanzure__> fenn: do you still want me to put in the word? you said something about the whole tuition thing.
23:13 < fenn> he will pay for tuition
23:13 < fenn> that's what the grant money is for
23:13 < fenn> should i send an email tonight?
23:13 < fenn> explaining who i am, why i want to work with adl, etc
23:15  * fenn anxts over how much to write
23:15 < kanzure__> yes, but send it to me first.
23:15 < fenn> ok
23:15 < kanzure__> yeah, that's why you should send it to me first.
23:16  * kanzure__ leaves
23:16 < kanzure__> oh, I also just replied to Dave/unptnt with a bit of a braindump. oops.
23:31 < kanzure_> back.
23:41 < fenn> too much pasta, brain starved for oxygen..
23:41 < kanzure_> ?