--- Day changed Thu Nov 13 2008
00:01 < genehacker> I missed the presentation what did he talk about again?
00:01 < kanzure_> http://unptnt.com/
00:02 < kanzure_> but also some other website that I can't remember the name of
00:02 < genehacker> replicators?
00:02 < kanzure_> No.
00:02 < kanzure_> prolotopia? prultopia? porotopia? prulatopia? prulatopia was probably it.
00:02 < genehacker> repository of product files ready to print off
00:03 < genehacker> open manufacturing processes?
00:03 < kanzure_> No, it's a website. Prolutopia or protopia or somesuch.
00:04 < genehacker> that's it?
00:04 < genehacker> just a website you collaborate with people on?
00:06  * ybit wants to read kanzure's response to paul on om mailing list
00:06 < genehacker> just a repository for stuff?
00:06 < ybit> concerning licensing
00:06 < genehacker> that's free?
00:06 < kanzure_> ybit: "Eat it"
00:06 < kanzure_> ybit: :-/
00:07 < kanzure_> genehacker: Well, that's the part that they're doing, and if they think they can get contributors then that's great, SKDB is more like the backend to their system if they want
00:08 < genehacker> so it looks like they'll sell either ads or support for the stuff on the website
00:08 < genehacker> nothing new there
00:08 < kanzure_> Huh?
00:08 < genehacker> at least on the front of it
00:09 < kanzure_> Nobody said it will be profitable.
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00:10 < genehacker> so can I see the gear visualizer?
00:10 < kanzure_> One sec.
00:10 < kanzure_> Ah, I lost my logs from today. One more sec.
00:10 < genehacker> and what are you currently doing with that NSF funding?
00:11 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/shots/2008-11-12_glxgears.png
00:11 < kanzure_> NSF funding? Paycheck.
00:11 < kanzure_> and that's why we have project money in here now
00:11 < genehacker> what are they paying you for?
00:12 < kanzure_> My work.
00:12 < genehacker> writing gear code
00:12 < kanzure_> No, the gear stuff is just one side project.
00:12 < genehacker> So it looks to me like the gear visualizer might not be useful to our reverse engineering project
00:13 < kanzure_> Why?
00:13 < fenn> what's the big deal with the glxgears screenshot?
00:14 < kanzure_> dunno, somebody wanted to see it I guess
00:14 < kanzure_> and was apparently impressed
00:14 < kanzure_> heh'
00:14 < kanzure_> "ooh! pretty!"
00:14 < fenn> ooh a demo program!
00:14 < kanzure_> "I feel like we're doing something productive!"
00:14 < genehacker> oh no bryan
00:14 < genehacker> I wasn't impressed
00:14 < kanzure_> No, I'm not talking about you
00:14 < genehacker> I knew what you did
00:14 < genehacker> heh
00:14 < fenn> kanzure_: maybe if it were in flash, with an AJAX frontend and SQL server
00:15 < kanzure_> fenn: You know I hate myself for writing all this stupid AJAX stuff, yes?
00:15 < fenn> why is it called AJAX again?
00:15 < kanzure_> asynchronous javascript and xml
00:16 < genehacker> unless the software  for making the gears can be used to figure out the right combination of gears such that the ammunition dispensing piston and the cartridge advancer move at different times so they don't jam up
00:16 < fenn> "Despite the name, the use of JavaScript, XML, or its asynchronous use is not required." Buzzword Alert!
00:16 < genehacker> then it's pretty much useless to us
00:16 < kanzure_> genehacker: yeah, Albert's software can do that
00:17 < genehacker> really?
00:17 < kanzure_> fenn: wtf is it if it's not js/xml/asynchreneity ?
00:17 < kanzure_> does PHP+flash count? isn't that just php+flash then?
00:17 < genehacker> I explain to you how the cartridge advancer and ammunition dispenser piston work right?
00:18 < kanzure_> I don't know
00:18 < genehacker> well then
00:18 < genehacker> looks like I might have to send you something
00:18 < fenn> machine gun mechanism is pretty simple and reliable
00:18 < genehacker> this is a machine catapult fenn
00:18 < genehacker> it's a bit different
00:19 < fenn> what's the power source?
00:19 < fenn> i'd be tempted to make a giant mini-mag (paintball gun type) using compressed air
00:20 < genehacker> ideal power source: tamiya gearbox
00:20 < genehacker> power source I am likely to use: hand crank
00:20 < fenn> ever taken apart an airsoft gun?
00:21 < genehacker> no
00:21 < fenn> that's basically a tamiya gearbox
00:21 < genehacker> a tamiya gearbox isn
00:21 < genehacker> a special name for a mechanism
00:21 < genehacker> it's a brand name
00:21 < fenn> yes i know
00:22 < fenn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:AEG.gif
00:22 < genehacker> http://www.tamiyausa.com/product/item.php?product-id=70103
00:22 < genehacker> this is what I mean by tamiya gear box
00:22 < genehacker> holy crap
00:23 < genehacker> that's pretty much my mechanism
00:23 < genehacker> but a bit different
00:23 < genehacker> FACEPALM
00:23 < genehacker> I just reinvented the wheel
00:23 < fenn> congratulations, you are now an engineer
00:24 < genehacker> though
00:24 < genehacker> this is an automated catapult
00:25 < genehacker> meaning it uses an arm to throw projectiles
00:25 < genehacker> it also uses plastic pigs
00:26 < genehacker> which aren't round like balls
00:26 < fenn> that's why you stuff them in short sections of pvc pipe
00:26 < genehacker> which means I can't load them in a hopper and shoot them as easily
00:26 < fenn> hoppers dont work well even for balls
00:26 < genehacker> HAHAHAHAHA PVC pipe
00:26 < genehacker> Fenn, I'm printing this out on a 3d printer
00:26 < fenn> why/
00:27 < fenn> waste of resin
00:27 < genehacker> because that's what the assignment is
00:27 < fenn> sigh... nevermind
00:27 < genehacker> what 3d printers use resin?
00:27 < fenn> go stick your head in the sand please
00:27 < genehacker> this one uses plastic
00:27 < fenn> FDM?
00:27 < genehacker> yeah
00:27 < kanzure_> SLS
00:27 < genehacker> nope
00:28 < genehacker> but we might have to use the SLS
00:28 < genehacker> given the FDMs
00:28 < genehacker> current condition
00:28 < fenn> if you're making large numbers of identical plastic pigs, why not do injection moulding?
00:28 < fenn> or blow moulding
00:28 < genehacker> not printing that
00:29 < fenn> you could 3d print a blow mould
00:29 < genehacker> I see no need to
00:30 < fenn> jello mould
00:30 < genehacker> you do have a point there
00:30 < fenn> "made from real pig parts (tm)"
00:31 < genehacker> the printer doesn't have that kind of resolution
00:31 < fenn> oo it would be cool if you could make a pig shaped hotdog
00:31 < genehacker> meat shaped like meat?
00:32 < fenn> you could make a meat/jello slurry and cast it in blow-moulded cellulose wrappers
00:32 < fenn> or whatever the aburage process is called in english
00:33 < genehacker> I don't want to 3d model a pig
00:33 < genehacker> there's no way I could do that
00:33 < fenn> i thought that was the whole point
00:35 < fenn> http://www.turbosquid.com/FullPreview/Index.cfm/ID/204391
00:35 < fenn> $35 pig STL
00:36 < fenn> but i'm sure you can do that
00:37 < fenn> what are rubber duckies made of?
00:37 < genehacker> I could buy 432 plastic pigs for that price
00:37 < genehacker> depends
00:38 < kanzure_> Hm. Homework or sleep?
00:38 < genehacker> Homework
00:38 < genehacker> sleep is for slackers
00:39 < genehacker> Hmm...
00:39 < kanzure_> It's weird, I can do allnighters when it interests me, but otherwise it just tires me.
00:39 < kanzure_> Sleep.
00:39  * kanzure_ sleeps
00:39 < genehacker> so you said that software can do phase and stuff?
00:40 < genehacker> phases I mean
00:40 < fenn> what software?
00:40 < genehacker> gear software that kanzure's talking about
00:42 < kanzure_> What does phase refer to when talking about gears?
00:43 < kanzure_> Albert Swantner <aswantner@gmail.com> has the source code. Maybe he will send it if you ask really really nicely.
00:43 < genehacker> as I go through a rotation thing A happens over theta degrees
00:43 < genehacker> thing B happens at theta + x degrees
00:44 < bkero> fenn: Did the LOVE guy ever get back to you?
00:44 < genehacker> IE as I turn the crank, the piston goes in and out of the cartridge before the cartridge is advanced
00:44 < kanzure_> yeah, angle is in this
00:45 < genehacker> could you ask him?
00:45 < kanzure_> About angles?
00:46 < genehacker> yeah
00:46 < genehacker> if you could 
00:46 < kanzure_> I know that it's in the system.
00:46 < kanzure_> because it's a requirement for the file format that he and I talked about ;-)
00:46 < genehacker> you might be thinking of teeth angle
00:46 < kanzure_> No.
00:46 < kanzure_> No teeth angle information.
00:46 < genehacker> not phase angle
00:46 < genehacker> well it might help me a lot
00:47 < genehacker> I've been doing some calculations and have been getting some weird results
00:47 < genehacker> which means that either my math is wrong
00:47 < genehacker> or that it doesn't work
00:48 < fenn> bkero: no
00:49 < bkero> :(
00:49 < kanzure_> Does anybody remember that latest game that demoed an ability to go through 4 or 5 dimensions at once?
00:49 < kanzure_> Something about being able to stretch things through the dimensions and making really cool use of the monitor.
00:49 < kanzure_> I'd like to see if there's an API for applying that to generalized N dimensional data sets, like my graph permutation tree.
00:49 < fenn> curved spaces?
00:49 < kanzure_> was that the name of the game?
00:50 < kanzure_> The name might have had something like 'crystal' in its title.
00:50 < genehacker> dang
00:51 < genehacker> 5 dim game?
00:51 < kanzure_> It was a space shooter of some sort.
00:51 < kanzure_> Steve will know.
00:51 < kanzure_> Which IRC network did I leave Steve on?
00:51 < genehacker> I've been trying to find some 3d glasses so I can try out stereo rendering on my computer
00:52 < fenn> genehacker: you know the polarized glasses + saran wrap trick?
00:52 < genehacker> no
00:52 < genehacker> I need anaglyph glasses 
00:52 < genehacker> I do know the trick however
00:54 < genehacker> http://www.geometrygames.org/CurvedSpaces/
00:54 < genehacker> do you mean this kanzure?
00:54 < fenn> for some reason i think of your nick as being a real name, like "eugene a. hacker"
00:54 < genehacker> crap
00:55 < genehacker> my true identity has been revealed
00:55 -!- genehacker is now known as gene
00:55 -!- gene is now known as anon
00:56 < fenn> surprised that isnt taken already
00:56 < kanzure_> watch him be kicked in a few minutes.
00:56 < anon> How did you know my middle name started with an a though?
00:57 < fenn> i'm psychic
00:57 < anon> heh
00:58 < fenn> being psychic is not particularly desirable
00:59 < anon> indeed
00:59 < fenn> you know all sorts of things like "i'm going to miss the train" and then it happens and you're still stuck
00:59 < anon> especially if you know what I am thinking of right now
00:59 < fenn> indeed.
01:00 < kanzure_> The actlab keeps a kid around by the name of Drake. He finished uni at age 13, and has hung around ever since and is now 18 or 19 or something. They call him their 'resident genius'. So tonight he was talking about some markov models for speech recognition for a game of telephone with robots whispering words to each other, as well as some infrared LED message passing protocols. Not sure how much 'genius' it takes for that, except the uni thing. Dal
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01:01 < kanzure_> why doesn't irssi split up my messages.
01:02 < anon> Is he the guy that started teh reprap?
01:02 < kanzure_> No.
01:02 < fenn> gah anon get out of my mind
01:02 < kanzure_> Brandon started reprap.
01:02 < kanzure_> Brandon Wiley also did freenet and bittorrent work
01:02 < anon> indeed
01:03 < kanzure_> maradydd's husband bunked with whoever did bittorrent originally
01:03 < fenn> bram cohen?
01:03 < kanzure_> yeah, that guy.
01:03 < kanzure_> Apparently Bram married a superpornstar.
01:03  * fenn wonders what that means
01:03 < kanzure_> quite literally a porn star.
01:04 < kanzure_> aspied his way into that one.
01:04 < anon> I don't understand how that is possible
01:04 < anon> social engineering?
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01:05 < kanzure_> Mostly social engineering of himself more than anything else.
01:06 < fenn> i find it highly improbable that this isnt mentioned on wikipedia
01:08 < fenn> http://valleywag.com/5067348/bram-cohens-wife-comes-to-his-defense
01:11 < kanzure_> Jenna Cohen. There we go.
01:18 < fenn> so i just need to write awful stories and the babes will come looking for me?
01:21 < anon> no you have to aspie
01:21 < fenn> i think generally that's the problem
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02:51 < bkero> Mmm mmm dillo dillo
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08:50 < willPow3r> im installing mapguide opensouce on my linux server
08:50 < kanzure_> What is it?
08:51 < willPow3r> its for collecting and distributing geospatial data over the web
08:51 < willPow3r> http://www.opengeospatial.org/
08:52 < kanzure_> Gah, their 'standards' page.
08:52 < willPow3r> i'm trying to find a complementary copy of autocad map 3d
08:52 < kanzure_> CityGML sounds worth clicking.
08:53 < kanzure_> Autocad map 3D, eh? I haven't heard of Autocad doing any mapping stuff.
08:53 < willPow3r> its really just hosting software
08:53 < kanzure_> Hosting how?
08:53 < kanzure_> An HTTP server daemon?
08:53 < willPow3r> believe it or not, autodesk made an opensource version
08:53 < willPow3r> yeah
08:53 < willPow3r> apache extensions more or less
08:53 < kanzure_> Fun stuff.
08:53 < kanzure_> I'll have to look into that.
08:54 < willPow3r> its like google earth with overlays for collected geographical data
08:54 < kanzure_> I'm trying to determine where opengeospatial.org is keeping data. 
08:54 < willPow3r> the only problem i can find is that most corporations are going to keep that data secret
08:54 < willPow3r> the data they find while searching for petroleum etc.
08:54 < kanzure_> Right.
08:55 < kanzure_> There's actually a US govt office for keeping track of that information.
08:55 < kanzure_> I don't have the link off the top of my head, but I might have something in /books/ including the data set.
08:55 < willPow3r> exactly, noaa etc. keep all that online
08:55 < kanzure_> It's basically a very poor geographical annotation/markup of major mines and so on
08:55 < kanzure_> NOAA is it?
08:55 < willPow3r> http://data.geocomm.com/catalog/index.html
08:55 < willPow3r> well, they're only one of the agencies that keeps data like that
08:56 < willPow3r> and, apparently, this geospatial data can be fed into autocad somehow
08:56 < willPow3r> i'm trying to figure that out
08:56 < kanzure_> Yeah, so what I was originally thinking of doing was to come up with this giant index of material suppliers worldwide, but in a reverse manner
08:56 < kanzure_> see, the major trading websites keep their 'supply network' behind closed doors even once you register and ask for bids on projects
08:56 < willPow3r> suppliers by material?
08:56 < kanzure_> yeah, sort of
08:56 < kanzure_> There's the mindat.org dataset, which tries to do that, then there's my latest matweb.com dataset;
08:57 < kanzure_> then with the NOAA dataset, I was hoping I could do some cross-reference,
08:57 < kanzure_> and if there's some locations that aren't in the mindat.org dataset, then feed those into Google Maps and try to figure out what business exists at those geocoords
08:57 < kanzure_> and then somehow figure out their URL.
08:57 < kanzure_> (URLs mapped to geographical areas .. blah, what has this world come to.)
08:58 < kanzure_> Alright, I'm off to calculus.
08:58 < willPow3r> have fun
08:59 < willPow3r> http://66.75.6.181 <-- my opensource mapguide server
08:59 < willPow3r> it works, apparently
09:00 < willPow3r> at least the compiled-from-source apache daemon does
09:10 < willPow3r> hmm. how in the fuck does an oss project rely on an expensive ESRI database server?
09:13 < willPow3r> oh nm. it can use mysql
10:33 < bkero> lol
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12:56 < UtopiahGHML> B citizen only : http://www.indymedia.org.uk/images/2004/05/292199.jpg
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13:13 < kanzure__> http://www.math.ucsd.edu/~sbuss/CourseWeb/CSE167_2003F/final/jordan_matthew_gordon/
13:18 < kanzure__> It's a Star Wars game they made for a final. :)
13:18  * kanzure__ was thinking of making an xwing cameo appearance in the gear thingy
14:27 < UtopiahGHML> http://fr.news.yahoo.com/2/20081113/thl-electrostimulation-du-cerveau-une-re-96993ab.html
14:27 < fenn> ubuntu will be making a ARM Cortex-A8/9 port: http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS9527593286.html
14:27 < fenn> this will be good for beagleboard
14:28 < fenn> and other mobile computing shenanigans
14:32 < UtopiahGHML> Five-Year Follow-up of Bilateral Stimulation of the Subthalamic Nucleus in Advanced Parkinson's Disease http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/349/20/1925 
14:32 < bkero> Yea
14:32 < bkero> They're expecting an ARM netbook
14:32 < bkero> Which would be fucking awesome
14:32 < bkero> Also, handhelds.org already has an ubuntu arm port :{
14:32 < bkero> :P
14:33 < UtopiahGHML> http://beagleboard.org/ "ultra-low cost, high performance, low power OMAP3 based platform "
14:38 < UtopiahGHML> (woops didn't see you were actually already mentionning beagleboard :)
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14:44 < bkero> I have a beagle board :)
14:44 < bkero> It's a fun little critter
14:45 < bkero> And it can be powered by USB - badass
14:47 < fenn> bkero: what are you doing with it?
14:50 < bkero> fenn: gentooizing :)
14:51 < bkero> As far as a purpose, I'm not sure yet.
14:51 < fenn> well looks like the $100 laptop is finally here, from hong kong: http://www.jointech.com.hk/jl7100.html
14:51 < bkero> uh
14:52 < fenn> "what" you say, "its not green?"
14:52 < bkero> 64mb ram, 64mb rom, alright
14:52 < fenn> certainly not enough ram, but that seems to be the way these things go for some reason
14:52 < bkero> I wonder how much they would cost without windows XP.
14:52 < fenn> win CE
14:53 < fenn> there's no XP ARM port
14:53 < bkero> Screenshots are XP
14:53 < UtopiahGHML> bkero: have you tried to add a tiny multitouch screen to make a modile device (a la Internet Tablet)
14:53  * fenn cant tell one grassy knoll from another
14:53 < bkero> UtopiahGHML: No, I already had a nokia 770 for that
14:53 < bkero> fenn: show me a screenshot of a windows ce grassy knoll
14:54 < bkero> Wait....That's an Eee 701.  I owned one
14:54 < UtopiahGHML> bkero: tried the N810 Wimax?
14:54 < bkero> It's white, but that's it
14:55 < bkero> UtopiahGHML: My friend has an N800, used it for a while.  He also works for clearwire, which is behind wimax.  It's fucking vaporware until you can buy service and hardware.
14:55 < UtopiahGHML> N810 Wimax has ... Wimax and you have some ISP in Moscow and tests in Paris
14:56 < fenn> are you talking about 802.11n?
14:56 < bkero> fenn: That laptop, look at the right side.  USB ports, VGA port, SD card port are all in the same spot.  The LCD bumpstops are in the same place.  Same mouse, same power button
14:56 < bkero> It's an Eee 701 without branding
14:56 < fenn> bkero: they all look like that
14:57 < bkero> No dude, I've owned an Eee 701, and now a Dell Mini Inspiron 9.  I know what they all look like
14:57 < bkero> Three of my friends have them, I see them at my house all the time
14:57 < bkero> There is not a single physical difference besides the badge shape on the top
15:00 < UtopiahGHML> bkero: heard any N810 but more "up to date" (kind of old HW now)
15:01 < bkero> You want a newer internet tablet?
15:01 < UtopiahGHML> and open, unlike Archos and such
15:02 < UtopiahGHML> (didn't try them personnaly but I asked in the channel and guys there say it was Linux but still not really that open)
15:02 < bkero> There aren't any
15:02 < UtopiahGHML> :\
15:02 < bkero> Nokia published the distro they're using, called maemo
15:02 < UtopiahGHML> yep I checked that
15:02 < UtopiahGHML> but it doesn't have real VGA out does it? Id like that too ;)
15:03 < bkero> Just get a small laptop and call it good
15:03 < bkero> Eee 900A's are at best buy for $280 now
15:03 < UtopiahGHML> I have an X31 
15:03 < bkero> N810 is about as good as you're going to get
15:03 < UtopiahGHML> k, thanks
15:04 < bkero> You could get an iPhone and use video out :P
15:05 < UtopiahGHML> not the most open device out there :/
15:07 < kanzure__> ADL needs a grad student.
15:08 < fenn> oo oo me me
15:10 < kanzure__> fenn: Are you serious?
15:10 < fenn> yep
15:10 < kanzure__> Do you want me to put in a word for you?
15:11 < fenn> uh.. i guess
15:11 < fenn> i want you to help me figure out what is going on in professor/administrator's mind
15:11 < kanzure__> excuse me?
15:12 < fenn> ok so i'll apply and then when they dont respond you can ask them
15:12 < kanzure__> btw, what was your SMIRF stuff? How was it supposed to 'improve' anything? was it "wait until you get 10,000 pieces of user feedback"? We're thinking of doing some smybolic regression analysis where we 'co-evolve' a simulator to provide smooth user feedback, because user feedback is too scattered. 
15:13 < kanzure__> fenn: I could walk down the hall.
15:13 < fenn> smooth user feedback?
15:13 < kanzure__> Imagine user clicking on "hot or not" for 20 times
15:13 < fenn> smirf was basically MMO x CAD x open source
15:13 < kanzure__> 20 data points is not enough to get a good function going there
15:14 < kanzure__> but what if you had regression on there
15:14 < kanzure__> and try to figure out a good function?
15:14 < kanzure__> Then you have your 'generator' ping back the 'smoothalizer' (instead of directly to the user)
15:14 < fenn> 20 data points isnt enough?
15:14 < kanzure__> if your graph has 300 nodes, and you've generated 10,000 graphs
15:15 < kanzure__> 20 clicks of "I hate this, I hate this", just narrows it down to you possibly hating just substitution rules with IDs <list here> ..
15:15 < fenn> hmm
15:15 < kanzure__> I'm only asking because of SMIRF, not because of the need for a grad student
15:16 < fenn> smirf was born out of the gaping hole in open source cad software
15:16 < fenn> it's not automated design
15:16 < kanzure__> "challenge the players to enhance the physics simulation"
15:16 < fenn> however, there was supposed to be a sort of "realtime" FEA and physics simulation
15:16 < fenn> so you could play with the design, instead of having a dead static drawing
15:17 < fenn> and it would do stuff in the world, slowly replacing dungeons&dragons style "points" systems with procedural simulations
15:17 < fenn> that's what all the alpha/beta star chaotic orbit is about
15:17 < fenn> so you can look up in the sky and see "magic is loose in the world!"
15:18 < fenn> to borrow a quote from heinlein :)
15:18 < fenn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldo_(short_story)
15:30 < kanzure__> Hm. Hod talks of an integrated robotic design+manufacture machine.
15:30 < kanzure__> for "robotic ecologies". 
15:31 < kanzure__> so he uses agency as a means of bridging the gap, that's peculiar. 
15:31 < kanzure__> I think I was talking about this on SL4 once.
15:31 < fenn> agency?
15:32 < kanzure__> Basically if you have this 'robot' that you are testing in an unknown, unpredictable environment, you wonder what the minimal set of programs you send with the robot/machine into that environment for problem solving.
15:32 < fenn> that doesnt make sense
15:32 < kanzure__> Something about bounding maximal return on investment or somesuch.
15:32 < kanzure__> no, it doesn't.
15:32 < fenn> if you dont know what to include you should include as much as possible
15:32 < kanzure__> This was an email from 2006, so nevermind
15:32 < kanzure__> I shouldn't talk about things I haven't seen in forever
15:33 < kanzure__> Anyway, they do "robot ecologies" so that they have agency for context sniffing to figure out what a bette design might be.
15:33 < kanzure__> *better
15:34 < kanzure__> (and instead of the sniffing information to go directly back to the GA search tree, it goes back to a simulator; the simulator then remains consistent to the environment, plus or minus weird predictions, so that the GA-of-the-robot-tree can ping the simulator and get back more smooth information to figure out optimal designs)
15:38 < nsh> http://www.princeton.edu/main/news/archive/S22/60/95O56/index.xml?section=topstories
15:38 < nsh> (don't forget, guys, everyone is painfully stupid)
15:39  * fenn braces for the impact
15:40 < fenn> yeah, conserved sequences
15:40 < fenn> is this news?
15:42 < kanzure__> http://3dprintables.org/
15:49 < nsh> kanzure_, can you access http://scitation.aip.org/getpdf/servlet/GetPDFServlet?filetype=pdf&id=PRLTAO000100000025258103000001&idtype=cvips
15:50 < nsh> (Physical Review Letters)
15:50 < kanzure__> Hm. An interesting approach would be to just say "how far can we push automated design and of what". That would be fun. It would give us an excuse for the automated design of really big things.
15:53 < nsh> kanzure_?
15:54 < nsh> nm
15:57 < UtopiahGHML> http://www.voltaicsystems.com/bag_generator.shtml so expensive :/
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16:02 < kanzure__> "We address the issues of Fully Automated Design (FAD), .." starts one Lipson paper.
16:07 < kanzure__> "               That is why we first focus and develop the
16:07 < kanzure__> conventional algorithms for conservatively simulating
16:07 < kanzure__> structures, and then parallelize into agents, rather than
16:07 < kanzure__> hoping some simple pre-programmed behavior primitives
16:07 < kanzure__> will scale. 
16:17 < kanzure__> http://dhcp-84-253.me.utexas.edu/lipson.zip
16:20 < kanzure__> fenn: You'd have to do a phone interview with him probably.
16:22 < kanzure__> nsh: http://dhcp-84-253.me.utexas.edu/PhysRevLett_100_258103.pdf
16:22 < UtopiahGHML> Subthalamic Nucleus Stimulation in Severe Obsessive.Compulsive Disorder http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/short/359/20/2121 (that was the article I wanted to share...)
16:23 < kanzure__> Does it increase OCD?
16:24 < UtopiahGHML> :)
16:24 < UtopiahGHML> Conclusions These preliminary findings suggest that stimulation of the subthalamic nucleus may reduce the symptoms of severe forms of OCD but is associated with a substantial risk of serious adverse events. 
16:25 < kanzure__> Not interested.
16:25 < kanzure__> Show me what increases OCD and then I'll start to be interested.
16:25 < UtopiahGHML> why increase OCD
16:27 < kanzure__> It's one of the ways you tweak variables, so that you know that your variable you think you have is really associated with what you're observing.
16:27 < kanzure__> It becomes very obvious when you shine a laser in your eye.
16:28 < UtopiahGHML> if the technique stimulate to inhibit I guess it could also be used to do the opposite when knowledge on the topic will improve
16:29 < procto> the problem with tweaking the variables in your very perception system
16:30 < procto> is that you can only feel that difference that you mentioned when things are back to "baseline"
16:30 < procto> except you may not necessarily know when you're truly at baseline again, if ever
16:31 < kanzure__> fenn: re: your question about fab@home; the reason why is because it was an attempt to promote the solid freeform design technique. That was the purpose of the device apparently.
16:31 < fenn> what was my question?
16:36 < kanzure__> why doesn't he just drop it and go with reprap
16:39 < fenn> the lasercut plexi thing is redundant
16:40 < fenn> reprap would benefit from having new device heads, and they could standardize (gasp)
16:40 < fenn> not to mention it would cost about $2k less
16:49 < kanzure__> uh oh
16:49 < kanzure__> "ADL" as in [A]DL (designs of instances of automation) or ADL as in design automation.
16:50 < kanzure__> Huh, I didn't notice that difference in interpretation originally
16:50 < kanzure__> but it can be read both ways
16:53 < fenn> derr... what?
16:53 < fenn> automated design means one thing
16:53 < kanzure__> [automated design] lab = that one thing
16:54 < fenn> why do you add brackets?
16:54 < kanzure__> [automated] (design lab) = the other one. 
16:54 < kanzure__> A pathetic attempt at emphasis.
16:54 < fenn> its the same thing though
16:54 < kanzure__> well I guess I am assuming some leeway in the tense, but I'm trying to point out the distinction between just working in a bubble versus designing automations.
16:54 < fenn> second case brings to mind robots typing away at computers for some reason though :)
16:55 < kanzure__> think of it as a command: "Design automation, lab! do it or else the robots will take over the world."
16:55 < fenn> hrm
16:55 < kanzure__> see the difference?
16:55 < fenn> i know what you're saying but i dont think the words fit the concept
16:56 < fenn> so how does one go about applying for grad school...
16:57 < kanzure__> yes they do. "Automated design" can mean both (1) the automation of the design process and (2) the same sense as "Blackened Car Lab"
16:57 < kanzure__> ugh, Blackened is a bad example ..
16:57 < kanzure__> Furrowed Eyebrow Lab.
16:57 < fenn> adjective has to apply to both (object of study) and (laboratories)
16:57 < fenn> expensive technology lab
16:58 < kanzure__> yeah, that's sufficiently amibguous to illustrate the point
17:02 < fenn> huh grad school has tuition?
17:02 < fenn> i thought i was signing up for slave labor
17:06 < kanzure__> http://www.utexas.edu/business/accounting/pubs/tf_gradsem.pdf
17:06 < kanzure__> classes.
17:11 < fenn> ah the problem is that "design" is a verb, not a noun
17:11 < fenn> i think its called a gerund
17:15 < kanzure__> hm?
17:16 < fenn> linguistics
17:16 < kanzure__> Automated Walking Lab v. what?
17:16 < kanzure__> I mean, is ADL the 'walking' version?
17:16 < kanzure__> I've confused myself.
17:17 < fenn> Automated Designing Lab vs Automated Creation Lab
17:17 < fenn> dammit
17:17 < fenn> they can all be used as verbs
17:17 < fenn> Automated Creature Lab 
17:17 < fenn> Automated Creating Lab
17:17 < fenn> there.
17:18 < kanzure__> Automated Designs Lab
17:18 < fenn> that works too
17:18 < kanzure__> ah, creating. 
17:18 < kanzure__> interesting how that interpretation was resting in the ambiguity of the name.
17:19 < UtopiahGHML> Im watching a documentary called Losers and Winners (2006) on german factory being dissaembled to be re-assembled in China. They directly bring chinese workers in Germany to do so and put numbers on each piece of the factory to build it back in China. I can't even imagine the impact on reprap/fablab in the long run...
17:19 < kanzure__> There's a company called Matrix Services that does that.
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17:20 < kanzure__> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Engineering_Expo_2008#.2A.2A_Matrix_Service_Company_FTW
17:21 < UtopiahGHML> I didn't know it reached those levels...
17:21 < kanzure__> :)
17:21 < kanzure__> levels?
17:22 < fenn> semi-automated disassembly and reassembly lab :)
17:22 < UtopiahGHML> level of globalization, directly shipping the factory from the west to the cheaper country thanks to their worker traveling on place and rebuilt the whole thing there
17:22 < UtopiahGHML> I thought they would ... I dunno, just make new cheaper one there or sth
17:22 < fenn> yay free trade agreements
17:23 < UtopiahGHML> I didn't really think about it before
17:24 < kanzure__> so there's a difference between just designing in a vacuum and designing for case studies requiring automation. It's hard to emphasize the difference.
17:24 < kanzure__> I think that's what the different wording emphasizes at least
17:24 < kanzure__> maybe my translator is broken
17:25 < fenn> the difference is that automated design can create manually operated equipment
17:25 < kanzure__> or one-off equipment stuff, yeah.
17:25 < fenn> but automated designs excludes them
17:26 < fenn> one is a process, another is a set of information
17:26 < kanzure__> It would be cool to use this as an excuse to get companies to let me study their automation. yay trade secrets..
17:26 < UtopiahGHML> (and thinking about it reprap/fablab produced equipement will be even more prone to piloted automation since the design will be entirely software manipulated, duh I need to think about the effect/consequences a bit more)
17:27 < kanzure__> ;-)
17:28 < fenn> UtopiahGHML: that hasn't been the case so far
17:28 < fenn> reprap is very labor intensive
17:29 < kanzure__> theoretically 'flexible manufacturing' could do allow for that to some extent, little cars that have giant robot arms on them moving around to make for some new system or something
17:29 < UtopiahGHML> fenn: well when I see how outdated Ive been regarding relocalization (viewing the documentary) Im starting to reconsiderate the whole process
17:30 < UtopiahGHML> Ill ask my friends who work on those topics in eastern Europe, that's actually what they are doing for car manufacturers
17:30 < UtopiahGHML> (new assembly lines, they don't even use top-notch automation there since labor cost is too low against machines)
17:31 < kanzure__> That's only because the consultants get hundreds of millions for "look! an industrial robot! future tech! woo-woo-woo"
17:31 < kanzure__> woo-woo-woo is supposed to mean hand waving I guess
17:33 < kanzure__> fenn: I missed what you said about the distinction, one being about the process and one being about the information (designs (plural)). 
17:33 < kanzure__> actually 'automated designs lab' doesn't have to mean just those designs that are of automated things, but also automated [designs lab]. design management and such.
17:36 < UtopiahGHML> (btw the doc. is on a coke factory, coke derived from coal)
17:36 < kanzure__> I suppose this goes back to the other basics I've been meaning to fix anyway, the expression of an adequate design
17:36 < kanzure__> 'adequacy' in design is a good topic in of itself because machinists are always yelling back up here at the so-called designers about how impossible these schematics are
17:37 < kanzure__> (not really, but I know they're cursing down there)
17:39 < fenn> well they should be
17:39 < fenn> yelling back up i mean
17:39 < kanzure__> And of course the determinant of adequacy is (corny "ta-da" here) whether or not the design can be translated into reality. ("it from bit")
17:40 < fenn> not really
17:40 < fenn> if you specify .00001" tolerance on a decorative plaque, that's not an adequate design
17:41 < fenn> it's physically possible to make, but the cost to benefit ratio is just off the scale
17:42 < fenn> theoretically anything is possible
17:42 < UtopiahGHML> is that a theory?
17:42 < fenn> designs coming from an academic setting often have high cost to benefit ratio :\
17:43 < kanzure__> uh
17:43 < kanzure__> translated into reality 
17:44 < fenn> example: fab@home vs reprap
17:44 < kanzure__> huh?
17:44 < fenn> same capabilities, different price
17:44 < kanzure__> No, you misunderstand me. physically possible as in, "here, I've done it using cheap tools"
17:44  * kanzure__ hands you something autodesignedthingy
17:44 < fenn> that's a weird interpretation of physically possible
17:45 < fenn> did you know guys in the 1800's scraped granite plates to within a millionth of an inch, with files and abrasive?
17:45 < kanzure__> hrm.
17:45 < kanzure__> but seriously, I meant with available tools, and specifically not ridiculously unavailable machines.
17:46 < kanzure__> so 'physically possible' is, yes, not an adequate definition
17:47 < fenn> services like ponoko are changing the landscape of "available machinery"
17:47 < kanzure__> I posted to openmanufacturing earlier about a way to do ponoko, with possibly lower margins if automated cargo loading is done
17:48 < fenn> i'm an autonomy freak though, so renting time on a machine in some indeterminate location somewhere on earth doesn't appeal to me
17:49 < kanzure__> right.
17:50 < kanzure__> somebody at dorkbot brought their "forearm-mounted electricity generator". wind-up toy. Was supposed to look like a time machine. Didn't work :(
17:50 < kanzure__> (the time machine aspect, I mean.)
17:50 < fenn> time machine?
17:50 < fenn> i was just talking about human powered electricity generators last night
17:51 < fenn> a string going from the shoe to a wind up "yank cord" generator on your belt, to provide power for mobile computers
17:51 < fenn> parasitic drag from walking n stuff
17:52 < fenn> this guy in robo club made a compact 12V jiggle generator, embedded in a gandalf-ish walking staff, so it lights up when you hold it a certain way
17:52 < fenn> with built-in ultracaps
17:55 < kanzure__> http://nsf.gov/awardsearch/showAward.do?AwardNumber=0742791
17:56 < fenn> i was telling him to build the tech into a carpenter's hammer, for ideal nail-striking illumination
18:02 < kanzure__> fenn: VC: chalstrom.com
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18:11 < kanzure__> Okay, I'm about to leave.
18:11 < kanzure__> fenn: do you still want me to put in the word? you said something about the whole tuition thing.
18:13 < fenn> he will pay for tuition
18:13 < fenn> that's what the grant money is for
18:13 < fenn> should i send an email tonight?
18:13 < fenn> explaining who i am, why i want to work with adl, etc
18:15  * fenn anxts over how much to write
18:15 < kanzure__> yes, but send it to me first.
18:15 < fenn> ok
18:15 < kanzure__> yeah, that's why you should send it to me first.
18:16  * kanzure__ leaves
18:16 < kanzure__> oh, I also just replied to Dave/unptnt with a bit of a braindump. oops.
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18:31 < kanzure_> back.
18:41 < fenn> too much pasta, brain starved for oxygen..
18:41 < kanzure_> ?
19:37 < bkero> Brains
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19:47 < fenn> what graduate program would ADL be associated with?
19:49 < fenn> i'm guessing either ECE - Manufacturing systems engineering; operations research & industrial eng; or mechanical engineering 
19:52 < kanzure_> Not industrial, as it turns out.
19:52 < kanzure_> Industrial and operations is upstairs.
19:53 < kanzure_> Manufacturing systems, hrm.
19:53 < kanzure_> well, ADL is within the MAD lab, "Manufacturing and Design"
19:53 < kanzure_> uhm. http://www.me.utexas.edu/ should have something.
19:54 < fenn> Manufacturing Systems Engineering
19:54 < fenn> This area emphasizes the application of computers, information sciences, and information systems to the development of equipment and software systems for manufacturing.
19:55 < fenn> mad lab website looks like it hasnt been touched in 5 years
19:55 < kanzure_> it's been a decade prolly.
19:55 < kanzure_> um, mechanical is a safe bet.
19:56 < kanzure_> I haven't figured out what the MSE stuff is (in terms of people/labs) yet
19:56 < kanzure_> maybe it's the same people. don't know.
19:56 < kanzure_> http://www.me.utexas.edu/~bryant/mfg/
19:57 < kanzure_> ah, it no longer exists anyway.
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19:57 < fenn> too bad
19:58 < fenn> i wonder if they are going to make me take calculus again
19:58 < kanzure_> Did you fail it?>
19:59 < fenn> no, but i've forgotten all of it
19:59 < fenn> from sheer disuse
19:59 < kanzure_> Doesn't sheer require calculus?
19:59 < kanzure_> or am I thinking of shear?
19:59 < fenn> i'm sure lots of engineering crap requires calculus, but it's totally irrelevant for what i want to do
20:00 < fenn> since i'm not doing engineering per se, more like meta-engineering
20:00 < fenn> and besides, that's what computers are for
20:01 < kanzure_> the multivariable calc grad/TA-dude basically just uses mathematica most of the time, except when lecturing/teaching/helping evidently.
20:01 < fenn> of course, why would you do it by hand
20:01 < fenn> i dont do long division by hand either
20:01 < kanzure_> because you're in a class :(
20:03 < kanzure_> actually I think they have graduate curriculums on the site.
20:04 < fenn> i dont see that anywhere
20:05 < fenn> looks like the other MS's are just plain ME
20:06 < kanzure_> yes, but there's "subspecializations" thingies.
20:06 < fenn> i dont even want to be a grad student, this is stupid
20:06 < kanzure_> heh
20:06 < fenn> i just want someone to pay me to work on skdb
20:06 < fenn> how hard is that
20:07 < kanzure_> if there's a way to be on the payroll without being enrolled as a student, I'd be the first one to sign up
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20:11 < kanzure_> it's worth investigating. 
20:12 < kanzure_> every lab seems to have their nonstudent person. in Ellington's lab it was Zack, in ACTlab it's just people hanging out, etc.
20:12 < fenn> it would really simplify things and allow me to begin immediately
20:12 < fenn> instead of waiting until.. august?
20:12 < kanzure_> for what?
20:12 < fenn> i might be dead by august ffs!
20:12 < fenn> for the academic year to start
20:14 < fenn> looks like there is no engineering GRE, yay!
20:14 < kanzure_> some of the grad students talk about 'quals'.
20:15 < kanzure_> that might be for phd stuff though
20:15 < fenn> i think that's like finals
20:16 < fenn> ah, quals is required before you start your dissertation (whatever that is)
20:44 < fenn> jesus christ why is everyone talking about the venus project
20:45 < kanzure_> it's not even that good.
20:45 < kanzure_> So it was funny today when I showed campbell approppedia
20:45 < kanzure_> appropedia
20:45 < kanzure_> and then when we went into his office for a few seconds to check his machine for something,
20:45 < kanzure_> in the corner it popped up, somebody emailed him "you have to check out appropedia"
20:45 < fenn> whee
20:45 < kanzure_> he hadn't heard of it before I told him about it 
20:45 < fenn> who was it?
20:45 < kanzure_> I don't know. Didn't catch it.
20:46 < fenn> your tachikoma agent?
20:46 < kanzure_> No, she was at home watching porn. :(
20:46 < fenn> lazy robots
20:47  * fenn glares around the room with x-ray-laser-eyes
20:47 < kanzure_> ?
20:47 [Users #hplusroadmap]
20:47 [ bkero  ] [ drazak] [ kanzure_ ] [ Overand    ] [ willPow3r] 
20:47 [ boogles] [ elias`] [ kanzure__] [ procto     ] [ xp_prg   ] 
20:47 [ chizu  ] [ fenn  ] [ nsh      ] [ UtopiahGHML] [ ybit     ] 
20:47 -!- Irssi: #hplusroadmap: Total of 15 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 15 normal]
20:47 < kanzure_> GITS ref?
20:47 < fenn> bot-on-bot violence
20:48 < fenn> nevermind
20:48 < fenn> i dont think i can keep up with paul's emails
20:49 < kanzure_> He may be more of a Markov bot than me.
20:49 < fenn> they're essay-length but unlike eric hunting they're mostly recycled material
20:49 < kanzure_> He has specific sections in his emails that repeat.
20:50 < kanzure_> Don't know how he keeps track of the recyclable elements.
20:50 < kanzure_> heheh.
20:50 < kanzure_> It would be fun to write a Paul email imitator app.
20:50 < kanzure_> it would be easy to write a few regexps to extract those recyclables, and then just generate emails based off of input keywords of a message
20:50 < kanzure_> I'm certain this would work.
20:50 < fenn> or you could run a paragraph-length markov bot on his website or a collection of previous posts
20:51 < kanzure_> is that equivalent?
20:51 < fenn> less work, more diversity
20:51 < fenn> unless you mean to use the regexp to keep quotes intact
20:51 < fenn> (he uses lots of quotes)
20:52 < kanzure_> yeah, I was thinking I'd just look for links
20:52 < kanzure_> since he usually has quotes nearby
20:52 < fenn> ok that's enough gossip.. perhaps i'll go spend the last of my money on ice cream
20:52 < kanzure_> last?
20:53 < fenn> borrowed money doesnt count in my book
20:53 < fenn> and i'm having some bank issues so i cant get at it anyway
20:53 < kanzure_> bank vanish?
20:53 < fenn> they are just being unreasonably slow
20:54 < fenn> i was trying to close my account, but the transfer is taking forever. they'll probably be closed for the weekend by the time it finishes
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22:27 < gene> hey Kanzure want to get into the business of selling GMOs?
22:27 < kanzure_> Why do you ask?
22:28 < gene> how else would we get money to do research
22:28 < gene> on biohacking
22:28 < kanzure_> Don't worry about the money.
22:28 < kanzure_> I have that covered.
22:29 < gene> while at the same time making a useful gene more accessible to the general public
22:29 < gene> oh yeah
22:29 < kanzure_> I was going to write some inventory software to manage inventories of plasmids in biobrick labs for accessibility. It would allow people to order plasmids.
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22:30 < gene> you aren't for profit
22:30 < gene> from grocery stores?
22:30 < kanzure_> No, from people who have plasmids.
22:31 < gene> btw, anyway to hide a gene in an organism's genome where it sits unused and easily cleaved with RE's
22:31 < kanzure_> What do you mean by hide?
22:31 < gene> Easter egg
22:31 < gene> bio easter egg
22:31 < gene> Hmmmm....
22:31 < kanzure_> ?
22:31 < kanzure_> Do you mean not expressed?
22:32 < gene> yup
22:32 < kanzure_> That's genetic regulatory networks stuff.
22:32 < kanzure_> Not a matter of where to place it.
22:32 < kanzure_> So you put something like a lac operon in front of it.
22:32 < kanzure_> And a few primers and so on.
22:32 < gene> uh huh
22:33 < gene> I'm saying sell a GMO with unexpressed plasmids in it
22:33 < gene> that the FDA won't find
22:34 < gene> so what does it take to modify the avian genome
22:35 < gene> pretty much the same as modding mammalian genome right?
22:35 < kanzure_> It's just DNA..
22:35 < drazak> kanzure_: how do you do rapid gel electroporesis? eg. a couple hours from sample+pcr+gel?
22:36 < kanzure_> Uh? It was always a couple hours.
22:36 < kanzure_> Are you using some ridiculously lengthy method?
22:36 < fenn> lotsa volts, a fan to cool off the gel
22:36 < gene> what're you trying to do drazak?
22:36 < kanzure_> crank up teh volts :)
22:36 < fenn> slower gels have better resolution
22:36 < gene> don't you mean current?
22:36 < fenn> same thing
22:36 < fenn> gel is a fixed resistance
22:37 < fenn> you're going after current per unit cross sectional area
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22:38 < drazak> kanzure_: ah ok, I had been given poor info than, sorry
22:38 < kanzure_> The FDA doesn't sequence genomes.
22:38 < gene> exactly
22:38 < kanzure_> drazak: Maybe. What source?
22:38 < kanzure_> gene: So you wouldn't have to hide it.
22:38 < drazak> kanzure_: a teacher :P
22:38 < kanzure_> drazak: Ah, the worst.
22:38 < kanzure_> gene: Besides, you could just, you know, avoid the FDA.
22:39 < fenn> you could just keep it in a freezer
22:39 < gene> not if you want to sell it here
22:39 < kanzure_> Sell it?
22:39 < gene> in the US
22:39 < gene> yeah
22:39 < gene> sell it
22:39 < kanzure_> If you start selling it, I start replicating it for free
22:39 < gene> yeah
22:39 < gene> I know
22:39 < gene> but investors don't know that
22:39 < fenn> what are you selling exactly?
22:40 < gene> something that could be rendered irreproducible
22:40 < gene> probably
22:40 < fenn> fat chance
22:40 < kanzure_>   ?
22:40 < fenn> RIAA and MPAA failed, with hundreds of millions of $ invested
22:40 < gene> to avoid environmental contamination
22:40 < gene> people will still buy it
22:41 < gene> even if it's free
22:41 < gene> really
22:41 < fenn> so why not sell insurance
22:41 < gene> they sell plants and animals
22:41 < fenn> or newspapers
22:41 < fenn> or linux distro's :)
22:42 < gene> can you distribute useful plasmids via a newspaper?
22:42 < kanzure_> What do you consider useful to be?
22:42 < fenn> erm uh you're being deliberately obtuse
22:42 < fenn> i'm saying your business plan sucks
22:42 < kanzure_> yay
22:42 < gene> 1. easy to seperate out
22:43 < gene> 2. useful for gene modification operations( restriction enzymes,heat tolerant polymerases and such)
22:44 < fenn> you can find these plasmids in any bio lab, the problem is not availability but rather artificial restrictions like patents
22:44 < kanzure_> and MTAs.
22:44 < gene> that's why I want to hide them in the genome of thing I am selling
22:44 < fenn> mail transfer agent? :)
22:44 < kanzure_> fenn: material transfer agreements. see my recent (~past 2 weeks) rants on inventory for plasmid mailing stuff, software thingies.
22:45 < fenn> rants where?
22:45 < gene> Mechanical Tyrant Agency?
22:45 < fenn> is this like "i promise not to give my lab supplies to terrorists"
22:45 < kanzure_> Material Transfer Agreements are required by universities before you can send biological agents.
22:45 < kanzure_> biological agents by mail.
22:45 < fenn> oo e. coli and taq polymerase.. scary
22:46 < kanzure_> right, it's bullshit stuff.
22:46 < fenn> someone could put e. coli in a bomb and contaminate the water supply!
22:46 < gene> HE HAS POTASSIUM PERCHLORATE HE MUST BE A TERRORIST
22:46 < fenn> or a welder
22:46 < fenn> weldor?
22:47 < fenn> or likes to make his socks really bright white
22:47 < gene> a welder is on gnomegland pecurity's watch list
22:48 < fenn> gnomegland?
22:48 < gene> shh....
22:48 < gene> you know what I mean
22:48 < gene> don't type it
22:48 < kanzure_> You're just acting paranoid because you think it's cool to be paranoid though.
22:49 < gene> indeed
22:49 < fenn> most paranoid people are that way
22:49 < kanzure_> ..
22:49 < fenn> at least the ones that talk about it
22:49 < gene> I USE A 1 GIG ENCRYPTION KEY
22:49  * fenn mutters something about "security culture"
22:49 < gene> TRY TO CRACK THAT FEDS!
22:50 < gene> anyway I've considered making potassium perchlorate before
22:50 < fenn> back when i was a terrorist... we had training workshops on how to avoid the fbi, but they were very straightforward and more about knowing the extent of the law than undertaking unreasonable technical solutions
22:51 < gene> I wish I could know my rank on the terror watchlist
22:51 < fenn> you could ask
22:51 < fenn> i think it would be a fun game to play
22:51 < fenn> kinda like "chicken"
22:52 < gene> actually it would be more like an RPG
22:52 < fenn> no, a mixed reality media
22:53 < fenn> crap. whatever that ilovebees thing was called
22:53 < gene> read about how to making bombs increase probability of being terrorist by 10 point
22:53 < gene> hmm...
22:53 < gene> wonder what they look for anyway
22:54 < gene> so how about blowing up the whitehouse
22:54 < gene> you know the inflatable one
22:54 < gene> it's been in it's box ever since I bought it
22:55 < fenn> no no, i live in the whitehouse, you can blow up the shack out back though
22:58 < gene> this topic isn't useful
22:59 -!- gene [n=chatzill@wireless-128-62-182-51.public.utexas.edu] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008102920]"]
22:59 < fenn> fine, be that way
22:59 < kanzure_> Why does he leave?
23:00 < fenn> ChatZilla
23:00 < kanzure_> So what?
23:00 < kanzure_> Oh right, firefox can't be on for more than 20 minutes ;-)
23:01 < fenn> do you think campbell would be interested in this? http://fennetic.net/cadwiki/index.php?FrontPage#vb206cb3
23:02  * kanzure_ types in the url ..
23:02 < kanzure_> is the anchor important?
23:02 < fenn> it's notes to myself on features i'd want in a cad-ish/skdb-ish application (before i came up with the idea of a technology distribution)
23:02 < fenn> the anchor is "goal oriented flow"
23:03 < fenn> just go to fennetic.net/cadwiki
23:04 < fenn> feel free to read the rest though
23:05 < kanzure_> user interface and data struct stuff to bottom.
23:05 < kanzure_> yeah, okay, linking me to that anchor makes more sense.
23:10 < kanzure_> I'm trying to figure out how to best convey the style that he tends to like. Talking search algorithms is good.
23:10 < kanzure_> Goals / user preference modeling is supposedly what I'm presently doing, which I guess I can make up some strange connections to goalism
23:11 < fenn> it's not really about goals, that was just sort of a buzzword/placeholder
23:11 < kanzure_> it's about 'requirements' no?
23:12 < fenn> right
23:12 < fenn> sufficiently vague requirements
23:12 < fenn> not specified to the last detail like in a drafting program
23:14 < fenn> anyway the point is to build all this optimization stuff into the cad program and run the optimizations in the background/on the server automatically, so you dont waste time switching around between tools
23:15 < kanzure_> right, I'm coding something up like that at the moment.
23:15 < fenn> lisp interpreter has a neat feature where you start typing in a statement and it is already evaluating it, so when you press return the answer comes back instantly
23:16 < fenn> oh well, this is "in the ballpark" at least
23:16 < kanzure_> sort of. I'm trying to figure you out a home run.
23:16 < kanzure_> oh, talking about hierarchical bayesian networks/probability would score some points btw.
23:17 < kanzure_> if you happen to actually know that area :/
23:17 < fenn> well, not really
23:18 < fenn> i dont see what bayesian networks have to do with process planning?
23:18 < kanzure_> no biggie, it was just a one-off comment he made to me recently.
23:18 < kanzure_> me either.
23:18 < fenn> its not like you can just make up data
23:20 < kanzure_> It's hard for me to figure out the "what's next" for ADL because once you have the giant cad system, and the toolchain from the tree search to the 3D modeling software and so on, that's about it for that sort of toolchain, plus or minus improvements/bugfixes..
23:20 < fenn> "Generalizations of Bayesian networks that can represent and solve decision problems under uncertainty are called influence diagrams." this sounds vaguely related
23:20 < kanzure_> huh.
23:21 < fenn> but i think he just has a hard-on for graphs :)
23:21 < kanzure_> also significant invested time in his codebase.
23:22 < fenn> hm yeah and i dont really get what it's supposed to do
23:22 < kanzure_> have you played around with it?
23:22 < kanzure_> graphsynth, I mean.
23:22 < fenn> no
23:22 < fenn> only the design repo stuff
23:22 < kanzure_> it compiles on linux, but it has some errors, though mostly works.
23:23 < kanzure_> so what the software does is take the substitution rules, given lefthand sides and righthand sides, and then goes through your given graph and keeps track of the number of different ways that the substitution could be applied, and then executes that replacement
23:23 < fenn> with mono? (linux)
23:23 < kanzure_> actually the website is rather informative for each of the sections, it just doesn't help to explain the GUI
23:23 < kanzure_> yeah
23:24 < kanzure_> monodevelop.
23:25 < kanzure_> One student has been writing a DLL extension to graphsynth for gear optimization. He has a set of substitution rules that take a user's "requirements" (in the form of a 'function structure' graph) and by various substitutions (+additions sometimes) there's this overall gear system, and then sprinkle in the optimization, and in the end it's a .gxml file that supposedly I'm reading in to glxgears.
23:26 < kanzure_> there's like four guys in the lab, for what it's worth.
23:27 -!- gene [n=chatzill@wireless-128-62-182-51.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap
23:28 < gene> http://burrtools.sourceforge.net/
23:28 < gene> are you pondering what I am pondering?
23:28  * fenn grumbles about the lack of a readme
23:28 < kanzure_> gene: That's like my supermetal app.
23:29 < gene> what's supermetal?
23:29 < gene> is harder than dragonforce?
23:29 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/shots/2008-11-02_supermetal_2.png
23:30 < gene> so what does it do?
23:30 < fenn> oh this was on johnny quest (cyberspace version)
23:31 < gene> huh?
23:31 < kanzure_> Given a set of primitives, allows you to randomly generate shapes and then do cool things with them. Export to 3D file format, for instance.
23:31 < gene> like?
23:31 < kanzure_> See the screenshot.
23:31 < fenn> they dug up a bunch of smashed pieces of a statue, scanned them in, and then let the computer assemble the 3d models
23:32 < gene> wait a minute really?
23:32 < gene> just like in snow crash?
23:32 < kanzure_> It's a common scene in investigative TV shows.
23:32 < kanzure_> "Broken bottle! But it's okay, we can painstakingly reconstruct it and extract fingerprints!"
23:33 < kanzure_> or in the latest Batman, given sharpnel => reconstruct the original bullet.
23:33 < gene> how does supermetal do that?
23:33 < fenn> these crime scene scenarios are rather close to what we need to do with magical-engineering-app
23:33 < gene> you are pondering what I am pondering then
23:33 < kanzure_> Supermetal is going in the opposite direction, but you just reverse things around and do collision detection and some quick math for checking whether or not basic constraints are satisfied.
23:34 < kanzure_> fenn: ?
23:34 < fenn> kanzure_: interfaces
23:34 < fenn> mcmaster catalog = smashed pieces
23:34 < fenn> edges of glass = product specifications
23:34 < gene> so supermetal breaks a part into pieces?
23:34 < fenn> combine them into something useful
23:34 < kanzure_> gene: No, supermetal assembles from primitives.
23:34 < gene> assembles what?
23:35 < fenn> stuff
23:35 < gene> random stuff?
23:35 < kanzure_> All stuff.
23:35 < fenn> icosahedrons from the looks of it
23:35 < gene> like?
23:35 < kanzure_> Say there's N possible primitives.
23:35 < kanzure_> and P set of points per primitive.
23:35 < kanzure_> Then you can loop through each one and make the graph.
23:36 < kanzure_> Now, to rate them, and score the constructions, you do some mathy thingies. Like whether or not you like there to be GIANT GAPING HOLES in the structures.
23:36 < gene> did you make it yourself?
23:36 < fenn> giant gaping holes can be good or bad or not matter
23:36 < kanzure_> Supermetal? yeah
23:36 < kanzure_> fenn: that's user-dependento f course.
23:36 < gene> and the gui
23:36 < gene> for it
23:36 < kanzure_> There is no GUI except the 3D visualization.
23:37 < gene> which is in?
23:37 < kanzure_> Huh?
23:37 < gene> what?
23:37 < gene> is it in
23:37 < fenn> but kanzure_ how do you generalize the concept of "giant gaping holes", and how many of these descriptors are there?
23:37 < kanzure_> a computer
23:37 < kanzure_> fenn: plugins.
23:38 < kanzure_> plugins for new varchecks etc.
23:38 < fenn> varcheck = what?
23:38 < gene> huh?
23:38 < kanzure_> distance between points/edges for instance?
23:38 < gene> I have know idea what u r talking about
23:38 < fenn> so varcheck is just a function
23:39 < kanzure_> What did you think I was talking about?
23:39 < fenn> gene: please limit the drooling idiot abbreviations
23:39 < gene> ok
23:39 < fenn> thanks
23:40 < fenn> kanzure_: would you say this is basically a genetic algorithm?
23:40 < fenn> varcheck ~= fitness function
23:41 < gene> you made a GA kanzure?
23:41 < fenn> unless you mean to calculate every possibility
23:41 < kanzure_> varcheck =~ scoring function.
23:41 < gene> how does it score it?
23:41 < kanzure_> The scoring function is not yet implemented because I don't care.
23:41 < kanzure_> It doesn't because I haven't implemented any of the checks.
23:41 < gene> how do your gene's work
23:41 < fenn> uh oh, did i say a naughty word?
23:41 < kanzure_> I guess if you wanted to you could check the distance between tips of objects on it.
23:42 < gene> so it's not really a GA?
23:42 < kanzure_> I didn't say it was a GA.
23:42 < kanzure_> It could be a GA though if you wanted.
23:42 < kanzure_> The genes would be the sequence of primitives or whatever.
23:42 < gene> I don't get what it does
23:42  * fenn feels like this is going nowhere
23:43 < kanzure_> There's a set of N primitives; you assemble it by saying primitives #1, 34141, 341, 5, 1, 39, 394
23:43 < kanzure_> So the genes for that one would be that list of primitives
23:43 < kanzure_> It's slightly more involved than that though because I implemented points of tangency
23:43 < gene> what's input what's output?
23:44 < kanzure_> input: number of 'nodes' of the graph or whatever. 
23:44 < kanzure_> output: 3D object.
23:45 < gene> ok
23:48 < gene> can it convert graphs to real objects
23:48 < gene> like from the ADL?
23:49 < fenn> the design repo doesnt contain any 3d data
23:49 < kanzure_> Yep. I'd have to write a gxml -> a data format thingy for the app but that's ok. That's just file format conversion stuffs.
23:49 < fenn> so you'd have a bunch of spheres stuck together to represent a camera, i guess
23:50 < kanzure_> hold on a sec.
23:50 < fenn> unless i'm missing something?
23:50 < kanzure_> So, the gxml data is the graph stuff. Like those 'CFGs' (component function graphs) that I generated with graphviz
23:50 < kanzure_> (grxml is the substitution rule stuff)
23:50 < kanzure_> The design repo, and all of those .repo files, do not contain gxml. :(
23:50 < kanzure_> They have files within them though, that's why I was so annoyed last month.
23:50 < fenn> gxml describes what?
23:51 < kanzure_> a graph.
23:51 < fenn> a graph that represents what
23:51 < kanzure_> It either describes a 'function structure' (black box) or 'CFG'
23:51 < kanzure_> CFG would be like "axe -> hammer"
23:51 < gene> so how would you make that meat slice gun real?
23:51 < kanzure_> Hold on.
23:51 < kanzure_> Some of the .repo files do not have those images, some do, etc.
23:52 < fenn> i'm not interested in images
23:52 < kanzure_> Some have 'CDD' (ConceptDraw files). Some have 'functionCAD' files. But CDD is proprietary and not easily converted to anything usable, as we know.
23:52 < kanzure_> Also, the database sucks; there's no way to extract the 'function structure' information about the connectivity.
23:52 < kanzure_> Specifically, a subfunction of an 'artifact' (which is kinda like in the CFG layer)
23:52 < kanzure_> points to another artifact; not to a 'port' on that artifact (like what subfunction the other artifact has that is relevant)
23:53 < fenn> unfortunate, that
23:53 < kanzure_> So you see stuff like "laserpointer -> table" but not that it's the solid interface that matters, or not that it's the laser-pointing part.
23:53 < gene> can't you figure out things like component is wedge, gear, bearing, or plane or such?
23:53 < kanzure_> yeah, so it's basically somewhat unusable data
23:53 < gene> uh wow
23:53 < kanzure_> the design repo doesn't contain 3D information, that's correct
23:54 < gene> matlab represents a missile guidance system as a graph
23:54 < gene> and a car as a graph
23:54 < kanzure_> yeah, electronics is very commonly a graph
23:54 < kanzure_> yep.
23:54 < fenn> control system, not the actual "how to build it" info
23:54 < kanzure_> "Function structures" are popular.
23:54 < kanzure_> right, the 'how to build it' info is something lacking in this stuff. 
23:55 < fenn> diagrams (graphs) for control systems is the only way to do it
23:55 < kanzure_> conversion to gcode and such is one way, but I want the origami assembly folding stuff too.. anyway.
23:55 < kanzure_> as for the meat slice gun thingy,
23:55 < gene> you know knives are simple machines
23:55 < kanzure_> It's very easy to make it real *if* the individual parts have 3D representations in the repo
23:55 < gene> the first machines made by man were knives
23:55 < fenn> so are rocks
23:56 < fenn> and sticks
23:56 < kanzure_> and dung.
23:56 < fenn> and hooting noises
23:56 < kanzure_> Is it a monkey?
23:56  * fenn bangs on chest (visual state indicator)
23:57 < gene> why not use all that ADL stuff to make stone age 3d structures
23:57 < fenn> indeed
23:57 < gene> rome wasn't built in a day
23:57 < fenn> this is why i'm interested in "love"
23:57 < fenn> quelsolaar.com
23:57 < gene> I don't know what you mean
23:57 < gene> meat
23:58 < gene> ok
23:58 < fenn> graph grammars for building primited 3d structures
23:58 < fenn> primitive*
23:58 < fenn> (oh did i mention they're virtual?)
23:59 < fenn> yuck IDE's :)