--- Day changed Sat Nov 22 2008
00:00 < fenn> i wonder if he uses code folding tools to hide the bulk of his quotes
00:00 < kanzure> I wonder how he's managing it though
00:00 < fenn> most of them have the python triple quote comment
00:00 < kanzure> tagging?
00:00 < fenn> maybe a good question to ask
00:00 < kanzure> he's mentioned it before, on the openvirgle mailing list
00:01 < kanzure> but it must not have been a good enough method for me to remember
00:01 < kanzure> something about 'winter' in his reply, so search for that.
00:03 < kanzure> more crap from Patrick. I should ignore him, but ..
00:04 < fenn> grep -i 'winter' mail/openvirgle
00:04 < fenn> nothing
00:04 < kanzure> bleh
00:04 < kanzure> I'll find in a moment, I'm busy trying to make up a reply to Patrick
00:09 < fenn> i wonder if thingiverse intends to add some more metadata than just author
00:10 < fenn> oh, tags hmmm
00:13 < kanzure> 'winter'. Blah. I must be wrong.
00:39 < kanzure> fenn: did you read my post to om about linking up different levels of abstraction in different packages in a skdb-like repo?
00:41 < kanzure> by weaving and connecting the different arbitrary levels of packages into a common api framework?
00:41 < kanzure> uh, I guess I need a better way to say that
01:39 -!- xp_prg2 is now known as xp_prg
01:43 < fenn> no, i'm a few days behind on om still
01:43 < kanzure> randomly neglecting email?
02:15 < kanzure> yay
02:15 < kanzure> DARPA grant went through
02:15 < kanzure> yay DARPA.
02:31 < kanzure_> "A summary of the study, released in advance, alleges that networks and databases used by the US government and American defense contractors are regularly targeted by Chinese hackers. 'China is stealing vast amounts of sensitive information from US computer networks,' says Larry Wortzel, chairman of the commission set up by Congress in 2000 to investigate US-China issues.""
02:32 < kanzure_> Which of these contractors would they be stealing from?
02:32 < kanzure_> Surely not Lockheed, for instance?
02:33 < drazak> DARPA++
02:33 < drazak> we wouldn't be talking without them
02:34 < kanzure_> http://etherpad.com/ real time collaborative editing via AJAX 
02:34 < kanzure_> erm, I should scarequote "real time"
02:46 < kanzure> I wonder if the hacking that the Chinese are doing are just bruteforcing ssh logins.
02:48 < kanzure> Hi `tty`.
02:48 < `tty`> hey Bryan - marc here
02:48 < kanzure> Ah, good. :)
02:48 < `tty`> had to get mIRC.. nicer than FF plugin... havent been on irc in 10 yrs
02:49 < `tty`> anyway, just parking here while I have my dinner :)
02:49 < kanzure> Yeah, I've been tending to dump chatzilla on to anybody not knowing about IRC, but I now tend to go for irssi, a tty IRC client.
02:49 < `tty`> cool
02:51 < `tty`> will go over your site, and discuss as i go... the wine bottle staring back at me ... bbl :)
06:18  * fenn scowls at 4.38GB file
06:19 < fenn> all my DVD-R's are 4.37GB
06:20 < fenn> it's actually only 5MB over
06:25 < drazak> lol
06:35 < gene> did you hear about that new media format that stores like a terabyte per disk?
06:35 < drazak> blue ray is like 54gb
06:35 < drazak> but yeah, there's something else, if I recall
06:36 < gene> 3d disk storage
06:38 < drazak> oh that stuff
07:50 < ybit> http://host01.pipebytes.com/
07:51 < gene> does anyone know where I could get 3.2 kilos of americium
07:55 < gene> guess not
07:56 < gene> 3.2 kilos of americium is enough to make a nuclear battery
07:56 < gene> check this out http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/mpapps/pagetools/print/news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7740484.stm?ad=1
15:56 < kanzure_> http://richarddawkins.net/article,3361,Single-Celled-Giant-Upends-Early-Evolution,Discovery 1.4 inch single celled organism
16:04 < kanzure> "During the 1971 World Science Fiction Convention, MIT students were chanting in the hotel hallways: THE RINGWORLD IS UNSTABLE!"
16:04 < kanzure> hehehe
16:19 < kanzure_> http://www.abandonedmines.gov/
16:20 < kanzure_> http://www.geocommunicator.gov/GeoComm/site_mapper/home/index.shtm "Site Mapper"
16:20 < kanzure_> http://www.geocommunicator.gov/blmMap/Map.jsp?MAP=SITEMAPPER
16:20 < kanzure_> bwahah
16:22 < kanzure_> I'm not getting any information to show up though
16:26 < kanzure> interesting.
16:26 < kanzure> Very confusing interface, but at least it's hypothetically stealable and parseable.
16:28 < kanzure_> "There are estimates of as many as 500,000 abandoned mines in our nation."
16:28 < kanzure_> This is begging for robots .. come on ..
16:41 < kanzure_>  "Autonomous exploration and mapping of abandoned mines" http://www.ri.cmu.edu/pubs/pub_5317.html
16:42 < kanzure_> "Abandoned mines pose significant threats to society, yet a large fraction of them lack accurate maps. This article discusses the software architecture of an autonomous robotic system designed to explore and map abandoned mines. A new set of software tools is presented, enabling robots to acquire maps of unprecedented size and accuracy. On 30 May 2003, our robot "Groundhog" successfully explored and mapped a main corridor of the abandoned Mathies 
16:42 < kanzure_> http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~thrun/3D/mines/
16:42 < kanzure_> ooh http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~thrun/3D/mines/html/map0.html
16:43 < kanzure_> http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~thrun/3D/mines/mine-mapping/mine1-anim-alt.avi 10 MB, streams 
16:45 < kanzure_> http://robots.stanford.edu/
16:45 < kanzure_> "Click here for the CARMEN robot navigation software (open source)"
16:46 < kanzure_> http://carmen.sf.net/
17:12 < kanzure> Oh, found what I was looking for
17:12 < kanzure> http://tin.er.usgs.gov/mrds/
17:49 < kanzure> Hi amaruk.
17:54 < amaruk> Hi kanzure and hi all
18:35 < UtopiahGHML> GoogleTechTalk about  Ajax Push, Comet, Reverse Ajax, and HTTP streaming : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLycb-Vyz8Q
18:36 < kanzure> Someday I will be punished for my sin of using AJAX.
21:38 < kanzure_> http://www-c.inria.fr/gamma/download/download.php various 3D meshes
21:58 < kanzure> Hey cis-action.
22:01 < fenn> wow that's a lot of models
22:04 < fenn>  10 SIMILAR SHAPES FIND BY VOXELS COMPARAISON
22:04 < fenn> it seems to actually find similar models too
22:07 < kanzure> Where are you seeing that?
22:08 < kanzure> oh
22:08 < kanzure> at the bottom of a particular model's page?
22:10 < fenn> i want a screensaver of these meshes falling into a big garbage pile
22:10 < kanzure> because they suck? or because it's fun to see interesting garbage?
22:11 < kanzure> heh, star wars dir
22:11 < fenn> because i'd much rather have functional cad models to import to smirf, but all i get are these useless meshes instead
22:12 < kanzure> btw, I'm downloading and will zip probably faster than you could rip the site
22:13 < kanzure> converting these into cad models isn't terribly hard, dimensioning information would have to be inferred, but there's nothing about making these functional though
22:13 < fenn> hm that reminds me, need to check whether 7zip managed to trim off 5MB from that 4.705GB file
22:14 < fenn> no i mean they need to have proper kinematics and material info
22:14 < kanzure> kinematics => motions/joints, yes?
22:14 < fenn> so i.e. you could ride the bicycle
22:14 < kanzure> that's what I mean too
22:14 < fenn> yes
22:15 < fenn> oh well i guess i'll have to settle for a magic dinosaur with a saddle
22:15 < fenn> but that still needs kinematics added to it
22:15 < kanzure> why is my life condemned to reconstructing and repairing terrible datasets?
22:18 < fenn> btw how are you ripping the site? i havent found any downloads yet
22:18 < kanzure> raw rip, because I'm too lazy to do it properly
22:18 < kanzure> there's tar files that they link to
22:18 < kanzure_> http://www-c.inria.fr/gamma/download/affichage.php?dir=STAR_WAR&name=Corvette&last_page=18
22:19 < kanzure> on the right of the image, for instance
22:19 < fenn> why do star wars ships suck so much
22:20 < kanzure> because when they were designed they were working on a shoestring bduget? "alright, we have four plates of plastic. let's make a ship."
22:21 < fenn> so ALL.*.tar will get you everything right? :P
22:21 < kanzure> I wonder why I'm downloading the whole site
22:21 < kanzure> um.
22:21 < kanzure> yay not reading
22:22  * fenn shrugs
22:22 < kanzure> I wonder what the real dir structure is
22:23 < kanzure> they have counter.php hiding the dir structure.
22:23 < kanzure_> http://www-c.inria.fr/gamma/download/affichage.php?dir=STAR_WAR/../&name=E-WEB&last_page=18
22:23 < kanzure_> never underestimate the mighty error message
22:24 < kanzure_> http://www-c.inria.fr/gamma/OBJECTS/STAR_WAR/ALL.3ds.tar 94 MB. hrm.
22:24 < fenn> i wonder if there's warez of geocommunicator.gov data sets
22:25 < fenn> surely there's a better way to view it than some java web app at least
22:28 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/books/Manufacturing/3D_models/dir_list.txt taken via Opera's link-list, plus copy+paste + regexp search/replace
22:36 < kanzure> for the geocommunicator.gov stuff I was thinking there should be some GTK-style map client
22:36 < kanzure> and then hoping that the "National Geo info service" (or whatever it's called) isn't being done via images only
22:36 < kanzure> and get the data sets from them, convert to formats that the client understands
22:36 < kanzure> and then view maps.
23:01 < kanzure> fenn: re: the meshes not being cad models.
23:01 < kanzure> Back when I was doing game design, in 2002 or 2003, I came across the same problem
23:01 < kanzure> I was not big into 3D modeling, but I wanted the models for my games
23:01 < kanzure> so one of the big things was skeletons for the models
23:01 < kanzure> which would determine ranges of possible movements
23:02 < kanzure> as well as animation sequences of movements
23:02 < kanzure> so one of the techniques that I recall was a way to just make up a skeleton
23:02 < kanzure> given the model input.
23:04 < fenn> sounds magical
23:05 < fenn> i've run across this problem in 2d with engraving algorithms
23:05 < kanzure> skeleton models aren't quite cad stuff I guess :-/
23:05 < fenn> no, but good enough for animals
23:06 < fenn> i've been converted to eskil's vision of "kill em once" monsters
23:06 < kanzure> Haven't heard of that.
23:06 < fenn> like, why does the big bad dragon respawn after you kill it? it should go away forever and leave everyone in peace
23:07 < fenn> and same for everything else
23:07 < kanzure_> http://charas-project.net/
23:07 < kanzure> check this out: 
23:07 < kanzure> erm, that came out the wrong way
23:07 < kanzure> but anyway, that's kind of back to my fakemon days
23:08 < kanzure> and random dungeoncrawler content generators
23:08 < fenn> i sort of doubt it's even worth looking at what other games are doing
23:08 < kanzure> they're doing nothing but respawning
23:09 < kanzure> I haven't seen something that does otherwise
23:10 < fenn> there's a very good reason for that, and it's because it takes a lot of programmer effort (money) to create each exquisitely detailed flawless monster
23:10 < fenn> so they have to get the return on investment from it :)
23:10 < kanzure> right, content generators tend to have that same problem
23:10 < fenn> how's that?
23:10 < kanzure> I just ended up following Aristotle's model of stories
23:10 < kanzure> well, the stories don't tend to be convincing
23:11 < fenn> who said anything about a story
23:11 < kanzure> (plus I never completed the entire thing, but you could get a sense from the raw output of the sentence structures that it wouldn't be coherent)
23:11 < kanzure> it's content
23:11 < fenn> i'm talking about information flow, stuff happening in a simulator
23:11 < kanzure> whether it's pixels or text I don't see the difference
23:11 < kanzure> hm?
23:12 < fenn> like, peasant gets attacked by dragon and runs whining to the knights
23:12 < fenn> or rather, runs around randomly until she sees a knight
23:12 < fenn> the whole "quest for the holy grail" thing gets kinda boring after a while anyway
23:13 < kanzure> quest generators usually follow a template like that.
23:13  * kanzure fetches a link
23:13 < kanzure_> http://www.roguelikedevelopment.org/
23:13 < kanzure_> http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php?title=Articles
23:13 < kanzure_> hrm, not the second link
23:14 < kanzure_> although it does have a lot of content
23:14 < kanzure_> http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php?title=Dungeon_builder_written_in_Python
23:15 < kanzure> in Ender's Game, the game that Ender plays (not the one related to the title) is an 'endless game' that keeps him occupied and educated, constantly generating new levels
23:18 < fenn> hmm maybe i should try to get terry hancock on board with this
23:18 < fenn> he was working on some kind of story generator i think (and also free cad social systems)
23:19 < kanzure> so what I had with my story generator was everything down to sentence generators
23:19 < kanzure> and ideally I was hoping to have it be like interactive fiction
23:19 < kanzure> the sentences that were generated were just experimental, and not related to anything within the game engine
23:19 < fenn> the problem with story generators is you have to win the loebner prize first :)
23:20 < fenn> (turing test)
23:20 < kanzure> from what I hear about erotic fiction, not true
23:21 < kanzure> hm
23:21 < fenn> yeah  but who reads erotic fiction all day
23:21 < kanzure> many stories in video games aren't that great either
23:21 < kanzure> in fact, most stories suck
23:21 < fenn> they dont read like spamvertisements though
23:22 < fenn> i cant believe in 2008 we still havent cracked the chatbot problem
23:22 < kanzure> how did we get to stories? generating monsters is slightly easier.
23:22 < kanzure> me tried his hand at making chatbots before
23:23 < kanzure> I think it's something that everyone does though
23:23 < fenn> ya
23:23 < kanzure> one of those phases
23:23  * fenn spent way too much time playing with megaHAL
23:23 < kanzure> my stuff was from a community at wiredbots (doesn't really exist any more), which was some stuff with perl and regexps
23:23 < kanzure> and response databases. I don't know what I was thinking.
23:24 < fenn> lame
23:24 < kanzure> wasn't even markov bots, so it wasn't fun like that
23:24 < kanzure> yeah
23:24 < fenn> i want something with at least some potential for growth
23:24 < fenn> otherwise why even talk to it
23:24 < fenn> i already know it's not a person
23:25 < kanzure> I have some logs from 2005 of me talking with myself, but it was boring.
23:27 < fenn> "Talking with complete sentences there and also too talking in a way that ordinary Americans can't really do there, I think needing to do that isn't tapping into what Americans are needing also, you betcha" governor palin responded in an article about Obama's use of complete sentences
23:30 < kanzure> That's painful.
23:32 < bkero> I like complete sentences.  they make me feel like I'm speaking a specified language.
23:33 < fenn> ah the sweet sense of false security
23:33 < kanzure> "I like complete sentences. They make me feel like I'm actually receiving information."
23:59 < kanzure_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iH0pJgEy6DU inventory sorting for pre-packaging
23:59 < kanzure_> it's an ad though