--- Day changed Sun Nov 23 2008
00:00 < kanzure_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7CRZZlnmKo huh, a video on a flexible manufacturing system. 
00:07 < kanzure_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWH8wyBFzpA&feature=related fms simulator. nothing fancy going on here though.
00:13 < fenn> <- not impressed
00:15 < fenn> maybe i'm a whiner but why dont we see more little turtle-robots driving around independently, instead of conveyor belts
00:16 < fenn> they could even be air powered for instant recharging each cycle
00:17 < fenn> for example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWsMdN7HMuA  (kiva robots)
00:19 < fenn> now they just need to get rid of the human
00:20 < fenn> centralized grid stuff is pretty icky though
00:46 < kanzure_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWsMdN7HMuA  (kiva  robots)
00:46 < kanzure> ugh
00:46 < kanzure> stupid copy+paste button thingy mapping
00:59 < kanzure_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Brba0CdOA7k <- are they advertizing child labor? hrm.
01:02 < kanzure_> http://www.sme.org/cgi-bin/getsmepg.pl?/html/METV.htm&&&SME&    Manufacturing engineering television
01:22 < fenn> what's that ripping noise?
01:24 < kanzure> where when?
01:24 < fenn> sme tv
01:29 < kanzure_> while I'm doing the video dance, I've rediscovered "Anima Mundi", the spinoff to Koyaanisqatsi:
01:29 < kanzure_> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2391673215252131298&ei=K7EoSYKuL4SargLH-6WJCw&hl=en
01:29 < kanzure_> "it contains no actors, has no plot and has no script"
01:29 < fenn> sounds like my video game
01:31 < kanzure> Koyaanisqatsi has some sequences of manufacturing environments to complement its themes ("life out of balance") but personally I'd be interested in seeing more of the mechanical side of things.
01:31 < kanzure> maybe it'd just be "How It's Made" with the original audio and any people stripped
01:31 < fenn> yeah much of koyaanisqatsi was supposed to be illustrating the futility of progress
01:32 < kanzure> ah, did you see it?
01:32 < kanzure> Tony had to beat me with a stick for about a year until I finally got around to watching it
01:32 < kanzure> Now it rests on a shelf with some others.
01:33 < fenn> yeah it's pretty cool
01:33 < fenn> i saw it with a live performance of the soundtrack
01:33 < kanzure> an orchestra in a pit underneath the projection screen?
01:34 < fenn> pretty much
01:35 < fenn> philip glass was my first exposure to "techno" music, so my mom thinks i'm super into his music or something
01:35 < kanzure> I've been trying to figure out a way to classify the mood that is given off by these videos plus things like THX 1138 (and whatever of THX that remains in the original Star Wars)
01:35 < kanzure> the intersection of THX and Star Wars I mean. 'industrial' is partly the right classification.
01:36 < fenn> i know what you mean
01:36 < kanzure> techno (sometimes) exploits that same theme. 
01:36 < kanzure> well, 'industrial trance' is probably why but that's cheating, it's in their categorical name
01:37 < fenn> i remember the first time i saw a cnc machine.. it was in the "international space station" IMAX movie
01:37 < fenn> i was like HOLY SHIT look that that thing go!
01:39 < kanzure> I don't know why Lucas has lost his touch with his original themes
01:40 < kanzure> (no, not "hope and justice and the good side")
01:46 < kanzure_> otherEric has gotten back to me on ultrasound brain stimulation
01:46 < kanzure_> http://www.dreamviews.com/community/showpost.php?p=950639&postcount=29
01:47 < fenn> origami is not too much different from sheet metal bending
01:48 < kanzure> campbell and another student are big into sheet metal bending actually
01:48 < kanzure> that's a large portion of other research going on in ADL.
01:48 < kanzure> 'large', meh, bad choice of words
01:49 < fenn> that's "the other research" going on
01:49 < kanzure> but he did point out that there are some important differences
01:49 < kanzure> for instance, bending sheet metal twice is not doable
01:49 < kanzure> like bend from one corner to the middle, then bend the adjacent edge to the middle <--- not going to happen
01:50 < kanzure> but with origami on typical paper, sure.
01:50 < fenn> depends on the metal and the thickness
01:50 < kanzure> one of the origami pdfs that I was reading the other day was trying to come up with various 'paper models' or 'material models'
01:50 < fenn> actually, i bet you could do it with some kind of plastic insert to spread the strain (less creasing, more plastic flow)
01:51 < kanzure> for various possible folds and manipulations of the materials
01:51 < fenn> "paper model" = simulation parameters right?
01:51 < kanzure> yes, ambiguity :/
01:51 < kanzure> model of the 'dynamics' of paper
01:52 < kanzure> material properties.
01:52 < fenn> i think most of the ambiguity in english is that there's no process for creating a new word
01:52 < kanzure> dynamics under applied force, let's go with that
01:52 < fenn> s/that/because/
01:54 < kanzure_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cu9z9piim2w tie-fighter factory
01:58 < kanzure> hm that was boring
01:58 < kanzure> nevermind
01:58 < kanzure> thought it would actually show the factory part :)
01:59 < kanzure> I just played through it the other week ..
02:05 < fenn> looks like Halo with swords
02:08 < kanzure> in one part of the level you're jumping around on the giant robotic arms and slicing through tie-fighters, force-pushing them into each other, that sort of thing.
02:36 < gene_> kanzure you there?
02:37 < gene_> guess you aren't
02:37 < kanzure_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_manufacturing wasn't expecting this to have actual content
02:37 < kanzure_> yeah, I'm here.
02:37 < kanzure_> You have to give me more than 30 seconds.
02:41 < gene_> ok
02:45 < kanzure> gene, if you have an flv viewer app check out http://heybryan.org/books/Manufacturing/videos/
02:48 < fenn> mix me up a ball of gundanium alloy
02:49 < kanzure> not gundamium?
02:49 < kanzure> oh, the phonetics.
02:49 < fenn> *n and *m are interchangeable in japanese
02:49 < fenn> er, wait nevermind, wrong letter
02:49 < fenn> uh, i guess it sounds cooler that way
02:50  * kanzure nods
02:50 < gene_> how about graphene fenn?
02:50 < gene_> will that work
02:51 < fenn> i was just referring to creative uses of microgravity alloys
02:52 < fenn> oh wow an explanation: "Gundanium's name is actually an acronym; it stands for Genetic on Universal Neutrally Different Alloy. The suffix -nium was added to distinguish it from similar alloys being made on Earth. In the After Colony Universe, the word "Gundam" is derived from this acronym (GUNDAnium Mobile suit)."
02:52 < fenn> you betcha
02:52 < gene_> genetic?
02:52  * kanzure thought you were making it up.
02:52  * fenn shrugs
02:52 < fenn> supposedly they use nanomachines in the process somewhere
02:52 < gene_> heh
02:52 < kanzure> it's neutrally different!
02:53 < gene_> it might be carbon nanotube truss composite
02:53 < fenn> it kinda pissed me off how in gundam wing Trowa goes back to his home colony and whips up a new gundam in like a week with no help
02:53 < kanzure> gundam was before CNTs became popular
02:53 < kanzure> fenn: do you have a reference to the video?
02:54 < fenn> gene_: no it's some kind of titanium and/or ceramic
02:54 < gene_> I know
02:54 < fenn> a reference to the video?
02:54 < kanzure> episode number or something
02:54 < fenn> uh, lemme look
02:54 < gene_> I am suggesting something else that might work in reality
02:54 < fenn> i have the episodes on cd somewhere
02:54 < kanzure> I'll add it to my "people who pwn me" (Tony Stark's 'power exoskeleton in a week' is in the pot)
02:55 < kanzure> gene_: not really, it's easier to fetch titanium than it is to do the CVD for CNT growth
02:55 < gene_> I don't have the viewer app
02:55 < kanzure> gene_: try mplayer
02:55 < gene_> I know but in the future....
02:55 < kanzure> what future?
02:56 < gene_> THE FUTURE
02:58 < gene_> but can you get radically high strength to weight ratio with ceramics or metals?
02:59 < fenn> there are other molecules besides nanotubes you know
02:59 < fenn> some sort of boron nitride fiber would be really strong i bet
02:59 < gene_> hmmm... or something with flourine
03:00 < gene_> fluorine  is the most electronegative element
03:00 < kanzure> yes, we are aware of this.
03:00 < gene_> it forms the strongest bonds
03:00 < fenn> STOP THE PRESSES
03:00 < gene_> why?
03:00 < fenn> FLUORINE DECLARES NEUTRALITY
03:00 < kanzure> and kindly asks to be left alone
03:01 < gene_> yeah it does only bond to one atom at a time though which rather sucks
03:01 < kanzure> do you know your chemistry?
03:01 < gene_> yeah
03:02 < kanzure> erm, not chem 101, I mean things like inorganic chem, pushing around functional groups in organic chem, that sort of thing
03:02 < gene_> no
03:02 < gene_> do you?
03:02 < kanzure> nope, but I do have bullshit detectors
03:03 < gene_> crap I think I might have made an error
03:03 < kanzure> Nope, you're right about fluorine
03:03 < gene_> ok
03:03 < fenn> huh this is interesting "Exposing the tubes to high magnetism causes most of them to line up in the same direction, increasing their collective strength" http://nextbigfuture.com/2008/10/buckypaper-race-to-market.html
03:03 < kanzure> but chemistry is rarely just "find an electron donor and hope it works"
03:03 < gene_> COOL!
03:04 < gene_> now apply electron beam
03:04 < gene_> and weld em together
03:04 < kanzure> there was another alignment mechanism too
03:04 < gene_> yeah there are a bunch
03:04 < kanzure> CVD is supposed to provide one alignment mechanism of course in their growth
03:04 < kanzure> but that's not what I'm thinking of.
03:04 < gene_> proteins?
03:04 < fenn> thinking of the yarn spinner?
03:05 < kanzure> I'm not aware of proteins to align CNTs in their growth process.
03:05 < kanzure> yarn spinners?
03:05 < fenn> i was surprised at how simple the CVD recipe for CNT's was
03:05 < kanzure> I have a zip on the server somewhere if you want, re: CNTs.
03:05  * kanzure looks around
03:06 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/nano/CNTs/
03:07 < kanzure> huh, one of those methods uses ultrasound
03:08 < gene_> yup
03:08 < gene_> they use sonicators too
03:09 < gene_> speaking of which, you said you might go down to the lab right now?
03:09 < gene_> or soon?
03:09 < kanzure> Maybe soon. I don't know.
03:10 < gene_> um... isn't it a little late?
03:11 < gene_> and I don't think we have any samples
03:11 < kanzure> Late? What time is it?
03:11 < kanzure> If I do end up going, I'd fetch some more algae.
03:11 < gene_> it's 9:10
03:12 < gene_> well tell me if you do
03:12 < gene_> now would be a great time to sonicate
03:12 < kanzure> Less people to bump into, sounds fine with me.
03:12 < kanzure> DId you replace the tip of the sonicator?
03:12 < gene_> no
03:12 < kanzure> Did you have to?
03:12 < gene_> YES
03:12 < gene_> we have too
03:12 < gene_> the people who own it
03:13 < gene_> really mistreated it
03:13 < gene_> the tip is pitted
03:13 < gene_> which is very very very bad for a sonicator
03:14 < gene_> pits mean places for vacuum to form
03:15 < gene_> and water rushes back into the pits VERY FAST
03:15 < gene_> and erodes the metal
03:15 < gene_> even more
03:15 < gene_> besides we have to use the cell disrupting horn anyway
03:18 < gene_> oh yeah inkscape is awesome for drawing double spirals
03:18 < fenn> why do you need double spirals?
03:19 < gene_> because they are awesome
03:19 < kanzure> ..
03:20 < gene_> and look really cool
03:20 < gene_> that's why
03:20 < kanzure> because of the filter that he was talking about a few weeks ago
03:20 < fenn> oh
03:20 < kanzure> the spiral one.
03:20 < gene_> Haven't you ever watched Gurren Lagann Fenn?
03:21 < gene_> that's why spirals are awesome
03:22 < fenn> jeez i thought you would at least throw in a schauberger quote or something
03:22 < gene_> Fenn I am afraid that you've figured it all out
03:23 < gene_> and the reason why we have DARPA funding
03:23 < fenn> i cant figure out if it's a gun bunny show or a gundam ripoff
03:23 < gene_> you must now get a mind wipe
03:25 < gene_> anyway who is Schauberger?
03:25 < fenn> spiral/vortex guy
03:25 < gene_> free energy?
03:25 < fenn> possibly
03:26 < fenn> i've often thought a lot of these "free energy" machines really were doing low energy fusion reactions without realizing it
03:27 < gene_> yeah right
03:27 < fenn> well, when you're older and know more, please remember
03:28 < gene_> prove that they produce neutrons then we'll talk
03:28 < gene_> speaking of neutrons
03:28 < fenn> hard to detect low energy neutrons
03:30 < gene_> I wonder if you used a pryoelectric neutron source and aimed it at some americium if you could make a nuclear powersource
03:30 < gene_> that is below critical mass
03:33 < gene_> so I don't have to get 3.2 kilos of americium
03:33 < gene_> http://thefutureofthings.com/articles/26/americium-power-source.html
03:33 < fenn> yes
03:33 < fenn> read about 'particle accelerator burnup'
03:34 < fenn> nuclear waste disposal strategy
03:35 < fenn> unfortunately it's not permitted under current anti-proliferation treaties b/c it involve "reprocessing" the waste
03:35 < gene_> you mean I could use americium from a smoke detector to power my laser?
03:35 < fenn> not really
03:35 < gene_> why
03:36 < fenn> because you dont have 3.2 kilos of americium
03:36 < gene_> I know
03:36 < fenn> maybe if you had some really fantabulous x-ray and neutron deflectors
03:36 < fenn> reflectors
03:36 < fenn> blah
03:36 < gene_> that's where the pyroelectric stuff comes it
03:38 < fenn> gene i think you'd like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzy1RNJBUo4
03:39 < gene_> I don't get it
03:41 < gene_> WTF is a bunny girl fighting darth vader?
03:41 < gene_> I don't get it
03:42 < gene_> fenn i think you'd like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAbhJk4YJns
03:47 < fenn> oh man the original is even better: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xLAVWf-N3c
03:58 < gene_> lol backpack missiles
04:13 < kanzure> Huh. Saul and Wilhelm did the hand crank for OLPC.
04:14 < gene_> huh?
04:14 < gene_> You mean Eric?
04:15 < gene_> link?
04:15  * kanzure nods
04:15 < kanzure> No link. This is just trivia from somebody who learned about me at Convergence08.
04:15 < gene_> huh
04:17 < gene_> I wish there was a way to sudo apt get food
04:20 < kanzure> Even if there was, you're not running linux.
04:20 < kanzure> And there's no apt port for windows IIRC.
04:20 < gene_> I know
04:20 < gene_> but if there was
04:20 < kanzure> well, that's what we're doing in here..
04:21 < kanzure> apt-get food would just mean some driver interfaces to various actuators linked up to a food inventory
04:21 < gene_> could we try to synthesize flavor molecules?
04:21 < gene_> make strawberry flavor fish?
04:21 < kanzure> Organic chemistry stuff?
04:22 < kanzure> Flavors are like cyclosomethings. hrm.
04:22 < fenn> kanzure: there's two eric wilhelms btw
04:22 < kanzure> fenn: and counting the one that showed up in here?
04:23 < gene_> hell Kanzure
04:23 < fenn> one is an architectural/cadcam/perlmonkey and the other is some MIT flunky instructables squid guy
04:23 < gene_> they're a bunch of weird molecules
04:23 < kanzure> fenn: right
04:23 < gene_> that are secret
04:23 < gene_> and maybe proprietary
04:23 < fenn> secret sauce
04:23 < kanzure> fenn: btw, I think we're already a sort of squidlabs, except we suck because we don't have physical space.
04:23 < gene_> indeed fenn
04:23 < kanzure> Molecules aren't proprietary.
04:23 < fenn> heh yeah squidlabs is a "do-tank"
04:24 < gene_> http://www.rense.com/general7/whyy.htm
04:24 < fenn> also they have access to a vast network of bay-area people with too much money, it seems
04:24 < gene_> some are according to some people
04:24 < kanzure> fenn: yeah, they seem like pricks.
04:25  * fenn doesnt care about french fry flavoring
04:25 < fenn> kanzure: ah, but they don't, that's what's amazing
04:25 < gene_> read on further down the article
04:25 < gene_> to the part about flavorist
04:25 < gene_> s
04:25 < gene_> wonder if you could get arrested for illegally compiling food
04:26 < gene_> then again there was that court ruling that says it's ok to 3d scan something in and make it
04:26 < fenn> maybe then it would be "cool" enough for you to work on that subject?
04:26 < kanzure> fenn: I think they just stumbled on to the right deals at the right time or something. This kind of happens at MIT I suspect.
04:27 < gene_> did you read about how squidlabs got founded Kanzure?
04:27 < kanzure> I'm sure there's some silly Kevin Kelly involvement or something with ycombinator
04:28 < gene_> no
04:28 < gene_> but kite surfing was involved
04:28 < kanzure> yeah, our CBA MIT contact talks about Saul's kite surfing ventures
04:29 < gene_> heh
04:29 < gene_> yeah
04:29 < gene_> been contemplating making a kite for a kite board
04:29 < kanzure> That's not going to work for your transportation system that you wanted to make.
04:29 < kanzure> Mostly because of the trees and the buildings around campus.
04:29 < gene_> yeah
04:30 < gene_> I know
04:30 < gene_> it's not related to my transportation thing
04:30 < fenn> stupid trees and buildings
04:30 < fenn> they're always getting in the way
04:30 < gene_> don't even get me started on trees fenn
04:31 < fenn> we just need to build a giant dirigible
04:31 < gene_> always getting in the path of my solar airship
04:31 < fenn> then we can drop bombs on all of them
04:31 < gene_> giant balloons aren't very expensive to build
04:32 < gene_> I built a 6 meter diameter saucer shaped balloon for about $5
04:32 < gene_> I think
04:33 < gene_> you know come to think of it
04:33 < gene_> they have all these hot air vents coming out of the ground where I live
04:34 < gene_> Maybe I could capture that hot air
04:34 < gene_> and put it in a balloon
04:34 < gene_> a solar balloon
04:34 < gene_> to supercharge it
04:34 < gene_> or inflate it
04:42 < kanzure> The six degrees of separation game should be updated to be 'how many degrees to the next Einstein' game.
04:43 < fenn> the next einstein?
04:43 < kanzure> insert some target here
04:43 < fenn> "there could be an einstein lurking next door"?
04:44 < kanzure> or "how far within the social tree do you have to go before you can be reasonably sure that you've .." bleh, it's just the "A Thousand Beautiful Wives" game I guess.
04:44 < kanzure> Nevermind.
04:44 < fenn> its just the erdos/bacon number thing right?
04:45 < kanzure> other random thingy- if you can convince companies that 'being open' is as good as 'being green', maybe you can get some legislation passed that makes them give kudos to employees who mentor on open source projects, but not contribute. 
04:45 < kanzure> yeah
04:45 < kanzure> oh wait, legislation is stupid
04:45 < kanzure> nevermind
04:45 < kanzure> I must not be thinking straight, this kid from CA is really making me stupid.
04:46 < fenn> legislation will just be taken advantage of and dilute the term
04:46 < fenn> like "carbon credit trading"
04:46 < fenn> gimme a fucking break
04:47 < kanzure> like I said, I'm being stupified
04:47 < kanzure> You should all probably ignore me for the rest of the night. Just saying.
04:47 < fenn> sparkfun has some neat stuff for cheap: http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=8668  http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=8844
04:47 < kanzure> Somebody mentioned a deal with sparkfun
04:47 < kanzure> Oh :)
04:47 < kanzure> It was Dave and unptnt.com with a sparkfun deal.
04:54 < gene_> http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=8668
04:54 < gene_> this is cool too
04:55 < fenn> didnt i just link to that?
04:56 < gene_> shoot you did
04:56 < gene_> I didn't notice that you posted to links
04:56 < gene_> so how do you use the camera
04:56 < fenn> i2c
04:57 < fenn> um, what do you mean?
04:57 < gene_> how do you get video out of it
04:57 < fenn> i suppose for starters i'd dump the camera output to the lcd screen
04:57 < fenn> with an avr in between
04:58 < fenn> or use SMBus or maybe ftdi chips have some i2c mode
04:58 < gene_> what code goes on the avr?
04:58 < kanzure> Me thinks you'd have to look at the ISA to figure out which pins are in what registers.
04:59 < kanzure> or interrupts, not registers
04:59 < fenn> jpeg decompression and just general glue code for going from i2c to spi
04:59 < fenn> avr might not be fast enough for jpeg though, but i bet the cam has raw mode
04:59 < kanzure> cameras output jpeg streams on something other than usb/firewire?
04:59 < fenn> are you going to make me read the datasheet? :)
05:00 < gene_> what would you do with it?
05:00 < fenn> attach it to my mobile borg glasses
05:00 < gene_> oh
05:01 < fenn> i'm pissed that in 2008 consumer video glasses are still only ~640x480
05:01 < gene_> the camera is pretty low res too
05:01 < fenn> 1.3MP isnt bad
05:02 < fenn> >3MP is useless in low light anyway
05:02 < gene_> heh
05:02 < fenn> unless you are NASA or something
05:02 < fenn> the pixels dont have enough area so you get swamped with noise
05:03 < fenn> problem is probably worse with tiny pinhole cameras like that
05:03 < gene_> yeah
05:03 < gene_> had plenty of experience with that :)
05:04 < fenn> so, glasses + button + microsd card would be neat
05:05 < fenn> or maybe attach it to one of those micro helicopters
05:05 < gene_> glasses+camera+loads of computational power
05:05 < gene_> that would be awesome
05:05 < fenn> it does onboard jpeg compression
05:05 < gene_> especially if you do optic flow
05:05 < gene_> and have it avoid walls
05:06 < gene_> or hands
05:06 < gene_> make a swarm
05:06 < gene_> MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
05:14 < kanzure> Hi mmarmer. :)
05:14 < mmarmer> hi
05:14 < kanzure> Maybe you could do a one line intro or something.
05:17 < mmarmer> Hi everybody, my name is max, and I"m from San Francisco. I've been talking with Bryan and am just seeing what you all are up to
05:18 < fenn> ah, so you are the one who wants to legislate away all our rights to enslave others
05:18 < kanzure> Hrm. I don't think so fenn. wrong person?
05:18 < fenn> some other kid from CA?
05:19 < kanzure> No, there was some ambiguity there. The thing about legislation was just my random idea.
05:31 < gene_> what legislator?
05:31 < gene_> you can take my clone farm from my cold dead body!
05:32 < gene_> And I don't plan on dying anytime soon!
05:33 < gene_> I don't have a clone farm
05:33 < kanzure> Still working on that whole, uh, artificial womb thing.
05:36 < gene_> you don't need to use artificial ones
05:36 < gene_> you just uh...  hire surrogates
05:37 < kanzure> Good luck doing that when you're half way across the galaxy.
05:37 < gene_> why?
05:38 < kanzure> presumably you'd want the resultant organism local.
05:40 < gene_> I'm talking about harvest clones kanzure
05:58 < fenn> what's wrong with cows?
05:59 < fenn> heh you could "bootstrap" your way up from a mouse
05:59 < kanzure> ?
05:59 < fenn> mouse gives birth to rabbit gives birth to wombat gives birth to cow gives birth to human
05:59 < kanzure> Replacing organs with slightly more complicated organs with different union-sets of compatability?
05:59 < fenn> or something like that
06:00 < fenn> sure, if it's in space it's easy to make it a sterile environment, so you can use SCID organisms
06:01 < kanzure> I'd just be concerned about figuring out the xenotransplant compatabilities.
06:01 < kanzure> would just take time, that's all
06:01 < kanzure> pig skin is a well-known human skin substitute, for instance
06:01 < kanzure> *well-known compatible human skin ..
06:02 < fenn> really? with or without immunomodulating drugs?
06:02 < fenn> s/modulate/supressing/
06:02 < kanzure> Haven't looked into it that well. 
06:02 < kanzure> But it's done for burn victims, for instance.
06:03 < fenn> i've heard of using potato skin as a temporary bandage
06:03 < kanzure> is potato skin a sufficient type of skin?
06:04 < fenn> for burn victims
06:04 < fenn> also there was some kind of tissue culture thing
06:07 < fenn> odd that there's no articles about artificial skin on wikipedia
06:18 < gene_> electrospun pcl
06:19 < gene_> It's a cellular scaffolding
06:19 < fenn> for skin substitute?
06:19 < gene_> yeah
06:19 < gene_> for a bit
06:19 < fenn> makes sense
06:19 < kanzure> pcl, a plastic?
06:19 < fenn> polycaprolactone
06:20 < fenn> starch based plastic
06:20 < kanzure> s/actone/acetone/ ?
06:20 < fenn> oops i'm thinking PLA.. PCL is similar though
06:20 < fenn> lactone = ketone of lactic acid
06:21 < fenn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caprolactone
06:21 < gene_> yup a plastic
06:21 < gene_> the same plastic that the straws in the cafeteria are made of
06:23 < fenn> PCL is opaque white, and PLA is clear
06:23 < gene_> wait
06:24 < gene_> you mean to tell me that they are different?
06:25 < gene_> I always though they were the same thing
06:25 < fenn> no, but quite similar
06:25 < gene_> damn you're right fenn
06:27 < gene_> both are good for tissue engineering
06:28 < kanzure> What, do they use contact sealant?
06:28 < gene_> super glue?
06:29 < gene_> cyranoacrylate?
06:29 < gene_> aka really awesome stuff
06:30 < gene_> hmm... I wonder if I could melt down this PLA cup
06:30 < gene_> it's temperature tolerance rated at 110 deg f
06:30 < gene_> in my microwave
06:31 < gene_> DAMN
06:32 < gene_> polymorph is PCL
06:32 < gene_> not PLA
06:35 < gene_> hey kanzure why not grow corn
06:35 < gene_> I mean just the corn cob
06:35 < kanzure> What did I tell you about not completing your sentences?
06:35 < kanzure> :(
06:35 < gene_> you didn't tell me that
06:36 < kanzure> Yes I did. I'll go fetch it from the logs if I have to. I was saying "just tell me the whole thing instead of using cliffhangers". It's more efficient if you just be verbose.
06:36 < gene_> ok
06:36 < kanzure> that would be awesome
06:37 < gene_> biologists have managed to grow just the cotton on cotton plants
06:37 < kanzure> and you want to process this into a plastic?
06:38 < kanzure> Can you give me the paper ref on growing just the cotton?
06:38 < gene_> yes and eat it
06:38 < gene_> that too
06:40 < fenn> "just the cotton"?
06:40  * fenn pictures big puffy balls of white growing on the dirt
06:40 < gene_> yeah
06:40 < kanzure> Here in Texas, we breed tumbleweed.
06:40 < gene_> in a petri dish
06:40 < gene_> that's what it looks like
06:41 < gene_> sans dirt
06:41 < kanzure> Many are unaware that tumbleweed is an actual species.
06:41 < kanzure> Tracking across the land, the tumbleweed migrates yearly from Texas to Alaska on its 4,000 mile journey.
06:41 < fenn> wow
06:41 < fenn> alaska must be full of tumbleweeds then
06:42 < gene_> heh
06:42 < gene_> maybe we could use tumbleweeds to transport things
06:43 < fenn> like tumbleweed seeds!
06:43 < gene_> I can't find the paper on growing just the cotton, but I did find this : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetable_Lamb_of_Tartary
06:43 < kanzure> fenn: ooh! yeah, we can have a self-transporting tumbleweed breeding operation!
06:43 < kanzure> the suckers will never know what they're paying for
06:44 < gene_> genetically modified doom-tumbleweed
06:44 < gene_> that hunts down people
06:45 < fenn> and manipulates the weather for its propulsion system
06:45 < fenn> giant radar sphere
06:46 < gene_> bah, why manipulate the weather, when you can do what sailboats do
06:46 < fenn> woah there, getting a little too high tech for me
06:46 < gene_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Beating_an_upwind_course.svg
06:46 < gene_> not really
06:47 < fenn> i think albatrosses do something like this
06:48 < gene_> ALBATROSS
06:48 < gene_> it might be a bit hard though
06:48 < gene_> you can't really have a keel on a tumble weed
06:49 < gene_> you'd have to have tiny arms or something that reach out and grab the ground
06:49 < gene_> in the right places
06:49 < fenn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_soaring
06:51 < kanzure> I still want to try out the origami folding glider thing + mounted IR camera for surface mineral discovery
06:51 < kanzure> (weather balloon launch)
06:51 < gene_> solar balloon launch
06:51 < gene_> no need for hydrogen
06:52 < gene_> able to go like 500 miles in a day
06:52 < gene_> they are somewhat hard to launch
06:52 < gene_> and too easy to launch without a payload
06:55 < fenn> what's this solar balloon stuff?
06:56 < gene_> what I explained above
06:56 < fenn> bah
06:57 < gene_> why does it have to be an origami glider kanzure
06:57 < kanzure> It doesn't. It just has to fold up a bit and be able to deploy while dropping or just before drop/deployment.
06:58 < kanzure> Just because for large surface areas and good glide ratios you can't just have a small paper plane dropped from the bottom of the ballooning setup.
06:58 < gene_> you don't need fold up wings
06:59 < gene_> http://www.solar-balloons.com/photos.html
06:59 < gene_> http://www.solar-balloons.com/images/submissions/zwsb1.jpg
07:02 < gene_> what minerals are you looking for?
07:03 < gene_> And why look for minerals when you can you use micropower impulse radar to scan for people, like lost hikers
07:03 < fenn> huh why not just make a black hot air balloon
07:04 < fenn> still having a hard time believing that it can actually work
07:04 < gene_> I did fenn :)
07:05 < gene_> it works great
07:05 < gene_> so great that number 3 escaped
07:05 < fenn> so like, why can't i just fill a trash bag with air in the sun
07:05 < gene_> no enough volume
07:05 < gene_> trash bag is too thick
07:05 < fenn> thin trash bag
07:05 < fenn> cheapo special
07:05 < gene_> you have to use special trash bags
07:05 < gene_> yep
07:06 < fenn> hm
07:06 < gene_> smaller than 20 micron
07:07 < gene_> 15 micron tends to be the smallest you can get
07:08 < ybit> http://github.com/sr/git-wiki/
07:08 < gene_> you want some figures for engineering solar balloons fenn?
07:10 < gene_> Kanzure I found the thing on vat grown cotton
07:10 < gene_> http://www.botany.utexas.edu/facstaff/facpages/mbrown/ovule.htm
07:11 < fenn> gene_: what's the payload of a 4-bag tetroon?
07:12 < gene_> I don't know
07:12 < gene_> never built one
07:12 < gene_> I built something like a 20 bag tetroon
07:12 < gene_> the amount of lift you get is about 60g/m3
07:12 < gene_> if that's what you want to know
07:12 < fenn> ok
07:13 < fenn> hydrogen is cheap :P
07:13 < fenn> 1kg/m^3
07:13 < gene_> damn
07:13 < gene_> guess so
07:13 < gene_> I might be wrong fenn
07:14 < gene_> that just a figure I remember off the top of my head
07:14 < fenn> i'm just amazed that it works at all
07:15 < fenn> wouldnt it work better to use clear bags and have a black sheet suspended in the middle?
07:15 < gene_> it works when you scale it up to really large
07:15 < gene_> yeah
07:16 < fenn> or you could do clear on one side reflective on the other, with a black target plate
07:16 < fenn> and keep the balloon aligned to the sun somehow
07:16 < gene_> but it's harder to do
07:16 < gene_> then your plastic melts
07:16 < fenn> well, doesnt' have to be plastic
07:17 < gene_> you know if you take black plastic abs sheet out into the sun it melts
07:17 < gene_> then what do you propose using?
07:17 < fenn> anodized titanium i guess
07:18 < gene_> that might be heavy
07:18 < gene_> how many grams per meter per micron?
07:18 < fenn> dunno, titanium is pretty lightweight as far as metals go
07:19 < fenn> might be a challenge finding titanium film thin enough, but you could etch it or something to reduce the thickness
07:19 < fenn> also you could make ripstop webbing if you etched it
07:19 < fenn> like on parachutes
07:20 < gene_> or make titanium foil via vacuum coating
07:20 < fenn> beryllium is the best to use, if i remember my solar sail papers
07:20 < fenn> s/solar/laser/
07:20 < gene_> but the best material to make a solar balloon out of, might be graphene
07:20 < fenn> heh
07:20 < gene_> a single atom thick layer of graphene
07:20 < fenn> at that point, might as well make a vacuum balloon
07:21 < gene_> coated with something to make it black
07:21 < gene_> well
07:21 < gene_> what material is the frame made out of?
07:21 < fenn> btw gene_  have you read about the floating geodesic sphere cities?
07:21 < gene_> diamond?
07:21 < gene_> yes
07:21 < gene_> on venus
07:21 < fenn> nanotube fantasticium
07:22 < fenn> well it would work on earth too
07:22 < gene_> oh
07:23 < gene_> bucky domes made of bucky tubes, that's almost a fractal
07:25 < gene_> it looks like it would work on earth without fantasticium
07:26 < gene_> it would be very expensive though
07:26 < fenn> i cant seem to find my way around orion's arm anymore
07:27 < gene_> back to the original topic of origami
07:28 < gene_> you know DARPA has at points, looked into micro air vehicles made of folded etched silicon with integrated sensors
07:28 < gene_> so you can make billions of them
07:28 < fenn> ah found what i was looking for: http://www.orionsarm.com/civ/Fullairs.html
07:29 < gene_> already read about it on an alternative website
07:31 < gene_> man
07:31 < gene_> I want an autofab
07:34 < gene_> oh krek!
07:36 < fenn> titanium horseshoes are popular among amish people!
07:37 < gene_> really?
07:37 < fenn> according to my favorite internet encyclopedia
07:39 < gene_> of course
07:40 < fenn> heh this guy mounted webcams to his trained eagle
07:41 < gene_> oh krek it's 1:40
07:41 < fenn> so?
07:47 < gene_> it's time to get the recommend 4 hrs of dreams per week I need
16:56 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/shots/2008-11-23_marioarena.png <-- Good stuff. Wine is finally running Mario Arena.
16:57 < kanzure_> http://www.allegro.cc/depot/MarioArena
16:57 < kanzure_> http://www.allegro.cc/files/depot/1140/marioarena085.zip
17:58 < kanzure_> gah, got an 88 combo.
17:59 < kanzure_> Used to be better. :(
18:01 < kanzure_> Hi mmarmer.
20:00 < kanzure_> http://news.slashdot.org/news/08/11/23/1851200.shtml "Machine condenses drinking water out of thin air - in other news, man releases pimped up dehumidifier!"
20:00 < kanzure_> "How long will we have to wait before Linux has support for the binary language of moisture vaporators?"
20:01 < kanzure_> hehe
21:31 < kanzure> God these guys are idiots. "Have you considered using a neural network to store manufacturing knowledge?" NO.
21:31 < kanzure> kfjkasdljkafsdlafjskd
21:35 < UtopiahGHML> http://uclassify.com/ApiDocumentation.aspx
21:36 < UtopiahGHML> (free classification API based on text analysis)
21:38 < kanzure> typealyzer knows my MBTI. :-/
21:38 < kanzure> hah
21:38 < kanzure> It even plots over a picture of a brain "which parts Bryan is likely using"
21:38 < kanzure> Doesn't look very accurate.
21:38 < kanzure> In fact, I doubt they know anything about neuroscience. This is stupid.
21:39 < UtopiahGHML> (regarding the slashdot news, on another scale, there is also large wind turbines to collect water)
21:54 < kanzure> Hm. I really need a new relayhost.
21:55 < kanzure> I've been sending CFPs to wikicfp@gmail.com, but apparently they are all jerks and don't post the stuff they get by email.
21:55 < kanzure> How do they expect their users to post if they don't post?
21:55 < kanzure> In fact, there should be a CFP file format.
21:56 < kanzure> which would ideally contain the TeX files for layouting
21:56 < kanzure> as well as deadline information
22:18 < kanzure_> Hm. Just got another guy doing a rocket design on sugpro mailing list.
22:18 < kanzure_> http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p281/gregkdc/minirocket001.jpg
22:18 < kanzure_> http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p281/gregkdc/minirocket005.jpg
22:18 < kanzure_> http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p281/gregkdc/minirocket002.jpg
22:19 < kanzure_> http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p281/gregkdc/minirocket003.jpg
22:20 < kanzure_> Maybe I'll just start offering "free digitization services -- just do a braindump and image dump and I'll try to come up with digitized designs because you hate documentation apparently."
22:20 < kanzure_> benefits them too for future re-use.
23:08 < kanzure_> Reading Freitas more closely, he mentions 'Sallowsgrams' with a ref to Hofstadter
23:08 < kanzure_> http://stason.org/TULARC/education-books/hofstadter-geb/6-Hofstadter-Pangrams-Sallowsgrams.html
23:11 < kanzure_> I have trouble believing that the best that Freitas was able to find for a reference on breaking down manufacturing systems into cycles and links (etc.) was Suh [1160] with a "functionality matrix" -- http://www.molecularassembler.com/KSRM/Figures/3.61.JPG <-- this is stupid.
23:11 < kanzure_> it's something that Campbell deals with sort of.
23:11 < kanzure_> not really, but he works with tables like that on occassion
23:37 < kanzure> Whenever I go back to read the pointrel docs I can't help but think of http://twistet.com/
23:54 < fenn> but how else do you deal with the fact that any tool will eventually be used as a hamer?
23:55 < fenn> (re: functionality matrix, which i dont get at all)
23:55 < kanzure> what do you mean "how else"? the functionality matrix doesn't deal with that case (of using anything as a hammer) in the first place..
23:56 < kanzure> hrm, Smari is asking for some advice for Iceland. Yikes.
23:57 < kanzure> They have very few material resources and supposedly a collapsed economy.
23:57 < fenn> basalt!!!
23:57 < fenn> and internet scams, of course
23:57 < kanzure> heh, this is a new one
23:58 < kanzure> we'll name it the "reverse Iceland scam"
23:58 < fenn> the other guy i know from iceland is trying to finish his sailboat so he can sail away.. anywhere's fine as long as it's not iceland
23:58 < kanzure> yikes.
23:59 < kanzure> I really have no idea what to suggest to them since the infrastructure for managing these 'rapid response required' stuff isn't available
23:59 < kanzure> to put in place the technical means, I mean
23:59 < kanzure> social means, I don't know how useful that would be to them..