--- Day changed Wed Dec 03 2008 00:14 < fenn> hmmm "blue light hazard" makes me wonder about light therapy for non-24 hour circadian stuffs 00:15 < fenn> blue light is 2x as effective as white light 00:30 < kanzure> yay, supercontraption compiles on linux after adding in some include 's in the right locations. 00:30 < kanzure> super > fantastic, right?? 00:31 < willPow3r> kanzure, according to snake, rattle, and roll, no 00:32 < kanzure> snake, rattle and what? 00:32 < willPow3r> old nintendo game 00:32 < kanzure> Rareware? 00:32 < willPow3r> yea 00:33 < kanzure> Wikipedia's not being helpful .. what was the gameplay like? 00:33 < willPow3r> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_Rattle_%27n%27_Roll 00:35 < willPow3r> http://www.flyingomelette.com/reviews/nes/snakernr.html 00:35 < willPow3r> ^^ better link 01:01 < wrldpc_> http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/image/0805/NaturalSpirals.jpg 01:01 < wrldpc_> re: the zipf's law 01:01 < wrldpc_> pardon the blatancy 01:01 < kanzure_> Heh. 01:01 < wrldpc_> wolfram 02:16 -!- percent is now known as jihaaad 02:42 < kanzure> Hm. I wonder if the solid links are just really a joint at each end of a solid rectangle 03:08 < ybit> anyone know some good books on the cerebellum? 03:08 < kanzure> bias: any paper referenced by Mauk 03:09 < kanzure> in fact, 03:09 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/school/buildingbrains/ 03:09 < kanzure> check the syllabus, there should be a book referenced in there 04:13 < kanzure_> Holy shit the fantasticcontraption guy is a jerk 04:13 < kanzure_> "Seriously. This is what's wrong with the flash gaming world. WRITE 04:13 < kanzure_> YOUR OWN GAME. Don't clone someone elses. 04:13 < kanzure_> Creativity? Anyone?" 04:26 < kanzure_> This guy is a little too easy to figure out. http://www.colinnorthway.com/forum/ 04:27 < kanzure_> http://magic.pen.fizzlebot.com/ 04:27 < kanzure_> http://ishi.blog2.fc2.com/blog-entry-206.html 04:28 < kanzure_> http://www.yoyogames.com/games/show/23266 04:28 < kanzure_> http://www.deleongames.com/nesky/index.php?page=forklift 04:28 < kanzure_> the incredible machine 04:28 < kanzure_> armadillo run (which is fantastic) 04:28 < kanzure_> world of goo 04:33 < kanzure> yep, he has a level XML file 04:33 < kanzure> Why do people insist on pissing me off? 04:43 < kanzure_> "Colin, this game is great! I'm not going to ask how you did it, but I love the way it looks and the animation is so clever! I'm having fun just watching what happens when I don't get it right, but it feels super when I succeed. Thanks for sending it my way. Aunt Chris" 04:43 < kanzure_> Aww. 04:50 < kanzure_> heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/fantastic/videos/ 04:50 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/fantastic/level.xml 04:50 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/fantastic/forumposts/ 05:10 < kanzure> gene: Do you know of fantasticcontraption, the incredible machine, armadillo run or world of goo? 05:10 < gene> yeah 05:10 < gene> vaguely 05:10 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/fantastic/2008-12-02_box2d_3.PNG 05:10 < gene> Installed armadillo run on my old computer 05:10 < kanzure_> ^ my clone of the game. 05:10 < kanzure_> http://fantasticcontraption.com/ 05:11 < kanzure_> There's also a Theo Jansen contraption - 05:11 < gene> you made it today? 05:11 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/fantastic/2008-12-02_box2d_2.PNG 05:11 < kanzure_> yes 05:11 < gene> for adl? 05:11 < kanzure_> sort of. More for myself. 05:11 < xp_prg> kanzure_ hey man! 05:12 < kanzure> Hello. 05:12 < gene> how does it store teh data? 05:12 < kanzure_> gene: http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/fantastic/level.xml 05:12 < gene> almost a tree format, but not quite 05:13 < gene> looks like it might be hard to do ADL with that 05:13 < kanzure> nope, graphsynth generates gxml files 05:13 < kanzure> so I just need to convert gxml to this particular form of xml 05:13 < gene> all rigid chips models are essentially trees you know 05:13 < kanzure> since Pradeep (in the lab) already does mechanisms like four bars etc., this is just plug-and-play (for him at least) 05:14 < gene> what are four bars? 05:14 < kanzure> hell if I know 05:14 < kanzure> I think I'm supposed to know though 05:14 < kanzure> something about a link, two joints and something else 05:14 < gene> well introduce the ADL people to rigid chips plz 05:14 < gene> people have already made genetic algorithms in it 05:15 < gene> that can actually put up a fair fight 05:15 < kanzure> ADL hates GAs :) 05:15 < gene> why? 05:15 < kanzure> GAs are not the entirety of search algorithms. 05:15 < kanzure> there's other methods that we implement as well as GAs, but anyway 05:19 < gene> I want to see what those algorithms can do with rigidchips 05:19 < kanzure> graphsynth is a free download 05:19 < gene> if they actually find the best way to build a spaceship a tank or what not 05:20 < gene> rigidchips is a free download 05:20 < kanzure> we've already gone over this. 05:21 < gene> explain graphsynth again 05:22 < kanzure> graph grammars = substitution rules for subgraphs, the translation of gxml seed graphs into gxml final graphs (with optimizations sometimes) based off of grxml files (the substitution rules, which match left-hand-sides with host graphs) 05:22 < kanzure> then there's various types of searching methods, like breadth-first and depth-first 05:22 < gene> ok 05:22 < kanzure> informed search is one that I'm implementing for designer preference modeling 05:22 < gene> so how do I use it to make a XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX 05:23 < kanzure> what conditions would you say an XXXXXXXXXXX is made. 05:23 < gene> what are conditions? 05:24 < kanzure> well, I don't know what an XXXXXXXX is 05:24 < kanzure> so how would the software know too? 05:25 < gene> a turbine 05:25 < gene> string XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX = "turbine" 05:25 < kanzure> but how does it know what a turbine is? 05:26 < gene> give an example of what conditions would be for a turbine 05:27 < kanzure> well, basically what you would do is figure out the requirements that you have for the turbine 05:27 < kanzure> I'm guessing this would mean some dimensional analysis stuff 05:27 < kanzure> and then you would go get a ruleset that matches this situation, and have it run over your "seed graph" (the requirements, or the general function structure - the conversion of electrical energy into rotational mechanhical energy) 05:27 < gene> size 0.5 in sq 05:27 < kanzure> right, right 05:27 < kanzure> so that's how it would do it. 05:28 < kanzure> it would then generate all possible graphs based off of the tree search parameters (depth, for instance) 05:28 < kanzure> at the moment not so much on 3D shape generation though, that's something that an optimizer module would have to do 05:28 < kanzure> Albert/Pradeep both have optimizer modules for their gears/mechanisms for instance 05:28 < gene> generate lots of thrust using the least amount of butane fuel 05:28 < gene> that sucks 05:28 < gene> we really need something that can make it's own optimizer modules 05:29 < gene> by itself 05:29 < kanzure> you can't create something from nothing 05:30 < gene> yeah 05:30 < gene> have it browse the internet make inferences from things 05:30 < gene> but that might be a bit far off 05:31 < kanzure> you forget that I'm kind of in the ai crowd 05:31 < kanzure> it's not "far off", it's just worng. 05:31 < kanzure> *wrong 05:31 < gene> ok 05:31 < gene> humans can do it 05:31 < kanzure> but if you want to look at inference engines 05:31 < kanzure> there's lots of theorem solvers 05:31 < kanzure> can they? 05:31 < kanzure> Humans tend to suck at design from what I can see 05:31 < gene> I know 05:32 < gene> how do automatically design a part assembling robot? 05:33 < kanzure> again it's about the requirements specification format I think 05:33 < kanzure> if you have an assembly then I suspect we could come up with mechanism designs that would then translate into physical motions 05:33 < kanzure> and the one that properly fits them together from feed lines is teh win 05:33 < kanzure> it probably could be a one-off generator, rather than generating multiple designs 05:33 < kanzure> since most assembly is simple actuators lined up or something 05:35 < gene> ok I think I might have something for you 05:35 < gene> make a mechanism to put control and drive units into a unassembled robot 05:36 < gene> A VERY SMALL ROBOT 05:36 < gene> as fast as you possibly can 05:36 < gene> I've been contemplating designing a micromachine 05:37 < gene> a tiny swimming robot 05:39 < gene> one of the problems I might encounter is integrating an electronics package(for sensors and stuff) and drive components(think magnets) 05:41 < gene> of course it might be possible to make a robot driven completely by sound, using fluidic logic and stuff like that 05:41 < gene> but what's the fun in that? 05:42 < gene> the problem is, it's very hard to do economical assembly of parts on a small scale 05:56 < kanzure> Hi Ghost` . 05:56 < Ghost`> hey kanzure! 05:57 < Ghost`> i think i was ok at the AI exam! 05:57 < gene> did you pass the turing test? 05:57 < Ghost`> this teacher is kinda chaotic (which is ironic enough for such a logic-influenced subject) 05:57 < Ghost`> ahahahaha 05:58 < Ghost`> that one is tricky 05:58 < Ghost`> but i`ve got a breach on it.. you can pretend you`re a human pretending you`re a machine ;) 05:59 < Ghost`> the human on the other side will think you`re just a human pretending you`re a machine, and will vote that you`re a human xD 06:00 < gene> ever program boids? 06:00 < Ghost`> this can be done with a pretty small knowledge base! 06:00 < Ghost`> boids? 06:00 < gene> yeah 06:00 < gene> or any swarms? 06:00 < Ghost`> i know, but whats that 06:00 < Ghost`> well, there is a game called grobots, which i`ve been involved with for some time 06:01 < Ghost`> i`ve been willing to alloc more time to it, but university always takes it all 06:01 < gene> boids is a swarming algorithm 06:02 < Ghost`> never done that i guess 06:02 < Ghost`> but check grobots out, its pretty cool 06:02 < Ghost`> kanzure! 3 clones!? 06:02 < kanzure> The fourth one is in my garage on life support. 06:03 < Ghost`> lol! 06:03 < Ghost`> omg! 4am! O.o gotta wake up in a few hours to study :-/ end of semester nightmare.... 06:03 < Ghost`> later folks 06:03 -!- Ghost` is now known as Ghost-Zzz 06:05 < gene> you could just gork all your clones 06:05 < gene> I hear they store better that way 06:08 < gene> http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/12/02/2313252 13:53 < kanzure_> ""A colony of bacteria found 2.8 kilometers below the Earth's surface in a South African gold mine is able to sustain itself without energy from the Sun. While sub-surface colonies of microorganisms utilizing sulfur (mostly near deep sea hydrothermal vents) is not new, this particular colony is unusual. The colony does it by relying on radioactive uranium to split water into hydrogen gas. Thus, instead of solar energy and photosynthesis, this species 13:53 < kanzure_> http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/10/20/0625206 13:53 < kanzure_> a thread on Orion's Arm is talking about strange places for organisms to live, and all I can come up with is Chernoybl and "within rocks". 13:54 < kanzure_> ah that's right, these are extremophiles 13:57 < fenn> in the outer layers of a red giant star 13:58 < fenn> or on the surface of a neutron star, if you've ever read Dragon's Egg 13:58 < kanzure_> http://www.infinityplus.co.uk/stories/gravitymine.htm The Gravity Mine by Stephen Baxter 13:59 < kanzure_> there was one by a game developer, something about life within stars, in a magnetohydrolayer 13:59 < kanzure_> although it wasn't "hydro" 14:01 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/docs/The%20Masque%20of%20the%20Heat%20Death%20-%20David%20Krieger.html <- lepton life 14:01 < kanzure_> "leaping leptons!" as the boy genius would tend to exclaim. 14:07 < kanzure_> gaah, somebody stop me. http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/12/hard-takeoff.html#comment-141211660 "When are you going to start the ai clock? We've been ticking for the past 50 years .." 14:10 < fenn> i tend to agree, but using the word "never" is foolish of course 14:11 < kanzure> so while you're around, I was wondering if you had any magical solution to gene's (random) design question. 14:12 * fenn reads the logs 14:12 < kanzure> he asked for graphsynth to design a turbine, and frankly it's not going to be doing that without a lot of upfront effort to make up some graph-representation of turbines 14:12 < kanzure> but he just pulled the word 'turbine' out of his ass 14:13 < kanzure> I've been avoiding the question of how to get a formal 'requirements' specification format. This might haunt me in the future. 14:14 < kanzure> function structures are close, but at the moment they are just a graph of "import electrical energy => convert to rotational mechanical" and then a mechanical contraption is substituted via various substitution rules in the db 14:14 < kanzure> doesn't quite help, with, say, an intuition that a rotational device has to have fins .. that would have to be in the db already. There's not some magical method I'm missing out on, is there? 14:17 < fenn> a turbine would be one node in a graphsynth diagram, with arrows for "fluid flow" and "mechanical rotation" coming out (at best) 14:18 < fenn> as far as i can see graphsynth doesnt do any designing at all, so the question is moot 14:19 < fenn> are you sure GA isnt the entirety of search algorithms? :P 14:19 < kanzure> it's more for circuitry 14:19 < kanzure> but I can't really imagine a generalized system able to pull anything out of its ass just by a name 'turbine' 14:19 < kanzure> if you say 'turbine' you are referencing something already designed 14:19 < kanzure> :/ 14:20 < fenn> not necessarily 14:20 < fenn> just by the name, sure 14:20 < fenn> but even that isn't enough 14:20 < fenn> and seriously, what's the point? 14:20 < kanzure> hm? 14:20 < fenn> all these boxes and arrows 14:21 < fenn> with no real information 14:21 < kanzure> I can't exactly walk up to him and tell him it's meaningless 14:21 < fenn> well that's your problem i guess, don't drag me into it 14:21 < kanzure> I also don't have an available alternative 14:21 < fenn> did i mention i hate earth yet today? 14:22 < kanzure> No, you're scheduled for later tonight. 14:23 < kanzure> although you haven't seen the gear and bar-link stuff in graphsynth 14:24 < fenn> four bar linkages is approaching real information 14:24 < kanzure> I'm not saying it's unique to graphsynth or arguing for it, just that it's there. 14:24 < fenn> do they specify the length of the bars at least? 14:26 < kanzure> maybe. But don't expect collision detection out of that, "oh look, a subgraph 80 nodes to the left " (ok, who makes an 80 link contraption anyway?) " might physically intersect with this part" <- not happening methinks. 14:26 < kanzure> or if it does happen it will be a hack and not done the way that it should be done. 14:27 < kanzure> i.e. proper collision detection or implicit degrees of freedom constraint checking would end up as further substitution rules :/ 17:15 < kanzure_-> http://www.ebi.ac.uk/biomodels-main/static-pages.do?page=release_03December2008 12th release of the biomodel sbml database 18:21 < kanzure_-> http://www.dmoz.org/Computers/CAD_and_CAM/Parts_Libraries/ 18:25 < kanzure_-> http://www.dmoz.org/Computers/CAD_and_CAM/Computer_Aided_Manufacturing/ yeah so dmoz gets excessive sometimes 18:28 < kanzure_-> http://varkon.sf.net/ more cad for linux.. 18:28 < kanzure_-> haven't seen that one around. 18:29 < kanzure_-> "In this generic, default Varkon user environment, it is possible, for example, to draw a line. Let's say, though, that you are involved in diagramming the plumbing system of a building. In this case, you may need not lines, but pipes. Through the MBS programming language, Varkon allows you to define parts such as pipes, and to specify them parametrically. You can therefore design a general... 18:29 < kanzure_-> ..."pipe" (think "class" if you're used to object-oriented programming (OOP)) which can become a specific pipe (think "instance" in OOP terms) when specified with its required parameters." 18:29 < kanzure_-> "Varkon goes beyond this, however, because it allows you to add this concept of a pipe to the user interface itself. You can create a menu, or modify an existing menu, to allow "pipe" to become a menu item alongside other Varkon and user-defined functions. " 18:29 < kanzure_-> "To the designer of a project, Varkon is preeminantly a programmer's modeling system. Varkon menu systems are sets of files in a simple format whose items resolve, ultimately, to Varkon functions (built-in or user-defined). The elements of a Varkon drawing or model are not defined as, say, entries in a database. Rather, they are modules of code written in the MBS programming language.... 18:29 < kanzure_-> ...Programming a Varkon project is more than scripting macros to simplify user's tasks; programming a Varkon project means creating a unique system built out of the tools Varkon provides. " 18:30 < kanzure_-> MBS program structure: http://www.marcdatabase.com/~lemur/vk-structure.html 18:31 < kanzure_-> Uh, I'm not too sure what's going on here. 18:34 < kanzure_-> http://www.varkon.org/ 18:39 < kanzure_-> http://www.varkon.org/Stone_Soup.html <- I don't get it. 18:45 < kanzure_-> http://rfqboard.com/ - 'RFQ Board is a non-profit, web-based service designed to facilitate an organized quoting process for manufacturing type jobs.' 18:45 < kanzure_-> found from: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.cad.solidworks/browse_thread/thread/7030f60faf703b9d/676b6c003ad8c475?lnk=gst&q=.SLDPRT#676b6c003ad8c475 18:48 < kanzure_-> "We just had a demo from a Rand rep where I work, and he was really 18:48 < kanzure_-> pushing this new product for Pro-E. It was a conduit between VBA and 18:48 < kanzure_-> Pro-E (can't remember the name) that would allow you to program stuff in 18:48 < kanzure_-> VBA (through excel, word, VB, or whatever) and have it control Pro-E. I 18:48 < kanzure_-> think it cost like $5K or $10K (memory doesn't serve, the demo was a 18:48 < kanzure_-> week ago actually). " 18:48 < kanzure_-> http://groups.google.com/group/comp.cad.solidworks/browse_thread/thread/c7cc4615cbd2301b/0a6f611ecc965661?lnk=gst&q=%22automated+design%22#0a6f611ecc965661 18:49 < kanzure_-> hah. 18:51 < kanzure_-> http://www.solidworks.com/sw/support/APIDownloads.html 19:25 < wrldpc> memetics is bullshit: http://redalyc.uaemex.mx/redalyc/pdf/339/33905206.pdf 19:59 < kanzure_-> I thought everyone knows that :) 21:04 < kanzure_-> "Design is the initiation of change to a man-made artifact." from random flippings through books laying around the lab 21:11 < kanzure_-> http://open-government.us/ 21:54 * kanzure_- hears angels singing 21:54 < kanzure_-> now if only I can get the conceptual design studies to start focusing on the voiced toolchain itself 21:54 < kanzure_-> heh 22:26 < xp_prg> kanzure did you see my email to diybio 22:26 < xp_prg> ? 22:26 < xp_prg> I sent it and it doesn't appear to be posting 22:59 < kanzure> Yes, I did see it. 23:51 < kanzure> connection issues? 23:51 < fenn> i was looking for an ethernet cable and unplugged the wrong one. then plugged server back into a dead port :)... 23:52 * fenn makes label for dead port 23:54 < xp_prg> kanzure I am meeting with a ceo of a biotech firm and a biostatastician 23:54 < xp_prg> tonight 23:54 < kanzure> What for? 23:54 < xp_prg> discuss my ideas 23:54 < kanzure> but you hardly know them 23:54 < xp_prg> and biobench 23:54 < kanzure> I've had to supply you with half the ideas :/ 23:54 < xp_prg> he is from a cse background 23:54 < kanzure> well, good luck 23:54 < xp_prg> kanzure you did help me understand many things for sure, but you never listend to my original ideas :) 23:54 < kanzure> feel free to tell them my number 23:54 < xp_prg> I will give you credit of course 23:55 < xp_prg> ok 23:55 < xp_prg> what is it? 23:55 < kanzure> well, your ideas suck frankly, nobody writes a compiler in flash 23:55 < kanzure> sorry :( 23:55 < kanzure> xp_prg: it's on the site, 1 512 203 0507 23:55 < xp_prg> the frontend they do, the back end 23:55 < kanzure> no they don't.. 23:55 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gcc 23:55 < xp_prg> kanzure you don't understand cse man 23:55 < xp_prg> your a biologist 23:56 < kanzure> uh, no, I'm comp sci 23:56 < kanzure> nice try though 23:56 < xp_prg> you are?! 23:56 < kanzure> yes. 23:56 < xp_prg> now I am totally dumbstruck 23:56 < kanzure> I mean, I'm technically enrolled in manufacturing engineering and computational neuroscience 23:56 < xp_prg> do you major in biology as well? 23:56 < kanzure> but my background is computer science 23:56 < kanzure> No, I'm not anything to do with biology coursework 23:56 < xp_prg> wow cool 23:56 < kanzure> although I am taking a brain course. 23:57 < bkero> brian course 23:57 < kanzure> is there a difference? 23:57 * bkero shrugs