--- Day changed Fri Dec 19 2008 00:07 < ybit> indeed, played too much sports when i was young 00:07 < ybit> hp 2133 looks okay 00:17 * kanzure_ also has gorilla hands. :-/ 00:18 < kanzure_> I played around with an eeepc the other day in class. 00:35 < bkero> hp2133 is ok if you don't mind the processor being completely anemic 00:36 < kanzure_> wtf is this 00:36 < kanzure_> United Nations Layout Keys 00:39 < kanzure_> ECE/UNCTAD Trade Data Elements Directory 00:39 < kanzure_> hrm 00:44 < kanzure_> http://docs.oasis-open.org/ubl/cd-UBL-1.0/xsd/maindoc/UBL-Order-1.0.xsd 00:58 < kanzure_> hahah 00:58 < kanzure_> fenn: Deepak (Mr. Tinkercell) found me comments about his softwwwware 00:58 < kanzure_> and is interested in developers 00:58 < kanzure_> so it looks like we're his steering committee :-p 01:07 < fenn> oh boy 01:07 < fenn> does that mean i have to download it? 01:07 < kanzure_> nope, you can just act like it 01:08 < kanzure_> I didn't really get much out of clicking around it 01:12 < kanzure_> http://taverna.sourceforge.net/ "Taverna allows users to integrate many different software tools, including web services from many different domains, such as chemistry, music and social sciences. Bioinformatics services include those provided by the National Center for Biotechnology Information, The European Bioinformatics Institute, the DNA Databank of Japan (DDBJ), SoapLab, BioMOBY and EMBOSS." 01:12 < kanzure_> "The Taverna Workbench provides a desktop authoring environment and enactment engine for scientific workflows. The myExperiment social web site supports finding and sharing of workflows and has special support for Taverna workflows. The Taverna workbench, myExperiment and associated components are developed and maintained by the myGrid team, in collaboration with the open source community." 01:12 < kanzure_> "Effectively Taverna allows a scientist with limited computing background and limited technical resources and support to construct highly complex analyses over public and private data and computational resources, all from a standard PC, UNIX box or Apple computer. " 01:14 < kanzure_> http://taverna.sourceforge.net/images/t2-workflow-design.png 01:14 < kanzure_> looks like UML-to-code. 01:14 < kanzure_> I hear that UML-to-code stuff failed terribly in the past 01:22 < kanzure_> Who has a demonoid account here? 01:22 < kanzure_> http://www.demonoid.com/files/details/1169431/3906481/ Gingery Building a machine shop from scrap complete series 01:22 < kanzure_> (am seeding) 01:22 < kanzure_> it's only 8 books though 01:27 < ybit> i'm thinking inspiron mini 12: http://tinyurl.com/4gd9lx 01:27 < gene> heh 01:27 < gene> so you're snowed in fenn? 01:29 < gene> instead of building UAVs to move stuff around you should build a jet propelled sled 01:34 < kanzure_> gene: go post your hand held factory thingy to om 01:34 < kanzure_> Or Else. 01:34 < gene> k 01:34 < kanzure_> http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing 01:35 < kanzure_> click register 01:35 < kanzure_> then send email to openmanufacturing@googlegroups.com 01:40 < fenn> kanzure_: i have other gingery books if you want them 01:41 < kanzure_> yes please. 01:41 < kanzure_> I wonder if we can get a full collection 01:43 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/pub/irc/Gingery - Build a Coil Winding Machine.pdf 01:44 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/pub/irc/furnace.tar.bz2 01:46 < fenn> hmm i guess that's all the others 01:46 < fenn> i dont have the whole series even 01:50 < fenn> what's the deal with demonoid? 01:55 < kanzure_> what do you mean, deal? 02:09 < fenn> the whole "no public registrations except for once in a while at the first of the month" thing 02:10 < fenn> "to avoid running out of resources" whatever that means 02:20 < ybit> i forget how much faster awesome wm and xmonad are compared to the typical wms 02:48 < kanzure_> fenn: what's in the furnace booooooooook collection? 02:49 < kanzure_> I have electrical-resistance-shop-furnace, making-crucibles, gas-fired-crucible-furnace 02:49 < fenn> gas fired crucible furnace 02:50 < kanzure_> blah, okay. the other two will finish downloading in an hour ish. 03:13 < kanzure_> http://www.wikicfp.com/cfp/servlet/event.showcfp?eventid=4328 BioSysBio 2009 (I'm finally adding some CFPs myself instead of just emailing to wikicfp@gmail.com ..) 03:13 < kanzure_> fenn: DC is Deepak. 03:19 < fenn> what is CFP? 03:20 < kanzure_> calls for paper 03:20 < kanzure_> call for papers 03:20 < kanzure_> and wikicfp is for calls for papers. 03:36 < gene> posted to OM 03:36 < kanzure_> yay 03:37 < gene> electrical resistance shop furnace sounds cool 03:37 < gene> can you adjust the temperature "precisely"? 03:37 < fenn> the gingery furnace doesn't have a temperature control (i think) 03:37 < fenn> but you can easily add one 03:38 < fenn> ah right, i think it's just "open loop" set the power level dealie 03:38 < kanzure_> oh, should I upload 03:38 * kanzure_ uploads 03:38 < gene> really, you don't need Farby-Perot interferometers? 03:38 < fenn> uh. 03:38 < fenn> you mean a thermocouple? 03:38 < gene> no farby-perot interferometers are what you use at really high temperatures 03:39 < fenn> no, x-ray spectrometer is what you use at really high temperatures 03:39 < gene> heh 03:39 < gene> really? 03:39 < fenn> yeah because the ions give off x-rays when they bang together at high speed 03:40 < gene> you can make a farby perot interferometer a lot cheaper than an xray spectrometer i believe 03:42 < gene> http://www.laserfaq.org/sam/laserlia.htm#liasgsf1 03:42 < gene> but it won't withstand high temperatures 03:42 < kanzure_> this sucks, 60 KB/sec. will take 1 hr 20 min to upload the 250 MB. Incomplete collection - there's another ~100 MB to upload. 03:42 < kanzure_> heh, all hail Sam. 03:42 < gene> whatch uploading? 03:42 < gene> gingery? 03:42 < kanzure_> gingery books 03:43 < gene> codename gingerbread house 03:43 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/books/Manufacturing/gingery/ <- not the gingery books, but other gingery stuff - images, some PDFs, schematics, .. 03:45 < gene> how good is the coil winder 03:45 < kanzure_> what's a coil winder? does it do what it says it is? 03:46 < gene> it winds coils 03:46 < kanzure_> okey dokey 03:46 < gene> more specifically how does the gingery coil winder work 03:47 * kanzure_ looks 03:48 < gene> does it have a serious wire feeding mechanism? 03:49 < gene> or is it just a wheel 03:49 < gene> or not even a wheel 03:50 < gene> heh you have a bunch of 3d models of Babylon five spaceships 03:50 < kanzure_> do I? 03:50 < kanzure_> link? 03:51 < gene> yes 03:51 < gene> I know what you would 3d print 03:51 < kanzure_> a legion of doom? 03:52 < gene> you also have 3d models of 2001 spaceships 03:52 < kanzure_> these are just meshes 03:52 < fenn> how is gingery 350MB? is it just raw scans? (no OCR) 03:52 < gene> we should ask Wood about running some off 03:52 < kanzure_> fenn: raw scans, yes. 03:53 < fenn> bah 03:53 < kanzure_> fenn: I posted to om today asking a place to put bug reports 03:53 < kanzure_> clearly this is a bug 03:53 < kanzure_> we should have schematics/models files for these.. 03:53 < kanzure_> and PSL or something :p 03:54 < fenn> for gingery machines? 03:55 < kanzure_> nod 03:56 < fenn> well, i wouldnt call it a bug 03:57 < ybit> http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/penelope_boston.html 03:57 < kanzure_> don't people fill up the bug depos with reports about features not existing? 03:57 < kanzure_> ybit: topic? 03:57 < ybit> Penelope Boston: Life on Mars? Let's look in the caves 03:57 < ybit> was getting to it :) 03:57 * fenn wonders if that's a real name 03:57 < kanzure_> who's this "us" in let's? 04:03 < fenn> gingery.zip is what you're uploading? 04:04 < kanzure_> no 04:04 < kanzure_> I'm uploading to gingery_books in /books/Manufacturing/gingery/ 04:04 < kanzure_> so it's /books/Manufacturing/gingery/gingery_books/ 04:04 < kanzure_> http://www.wikicfp.com/cfp/call?conference=e-commerce huh 04:04 < kanzure_> http://www.wikicfp.com/cfp/call?conference=design%20automation huh^2 04:05 < fenn> not really what i would call design automation 04:05 < kanzure_> neat, there's something in austin. deadline is .. four days from now 04:05 < kanzure_> some of them are. '46th Design automation conference' 04:06 < kanzure_> http://www.dac.com/ 04:06 < kanzure_> hm, this is mostly IC stuff. 04:06 < kanzure_> EDA/IC stuff. 04:07 < fenn> yup 04:07 < fenn> only industry that doesnt have their heads up their asses 04:07 < kanzure_> well actually 04:07 < fenn> i think not being able to see something changes the way you think about it 04:07 < kanzure_> my father worked in that industry, they're clueless 04:07 < kanzure_> at least Freescale Semiconductor was :-) 04:07 < kanzure_> and my mom was AMD 04:08 < kanzure_> hm. 04:08 < kanzure_> well, freescale was getting so bad that the manufacturing left hand didn't know what thhhe right hand was doing 04:08 < kanzure_> and management not really understanding anything :) 04:09 < fenn> i meant about automated design and having good specifications and standards 04:09 < fenn> when's the last time you saw a datasheet for anything that even approached the comprehensiveness of any old electronic component datasheet 04:09 < fenn> most things dont even have datasheets 04:09 < kanzure_> well, never. 04:10 < fenn> it's like they dont even bother telling you what you're getting 04:10 < kanzure_> just because the tools exist doesn't mean that they are being used by the multi billion dollar companies. I mean, from what I heard, it was pathetic 04:10 < kanzure_> they expect you to call I guess. 04:10 < fenn> but they dont even know 04:10 < kanzure_> did you see the .xsd for ubl that I linked to? 04:10 < fenn> no, what's that? 04:11 < fenn> ubl is some bio markup right? 04:11 < kanzure_> http://docs.oasis-open.org/ubl/cd-UBL-1.0/xsd/maindoc/UBL-Order-1.0.xsd 04:11 < fenn> universal business language? 04:11 < kanzure_> UBL is univ-- yes. 04:11 < kanzure_> supposedly openoffice has UBL support(?) or planned to(?) 04:11 * fenn reads.. 04:11 < kanzure_> http://docs.oasis-open.org/ubl/cd-UBL-1.0/ 04:12 < kanzure_> ^ the spec 04:12 < kanzure_> anyway, the idea was that if OO.o could infiltrate businesses, 04:12 < kanzure_> then the xml template documents could be used to standardize common business documents (RFQ's, RFC's, etc.) 04:12 < kanzure_> in fact, there were some surprising numbers about this 04:13 < kanzure_> http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/msg/85a9b512259ddaa4 04:13 < kanzure_> re: usage. 04:13 < kanzure_> " 04:13 < kanzure_> 1.25 million UBL invoices are exchanged in the 04:13 < kanzure_> * Danish public sector every month 04:13 < kanzure_> Swedish government SEK 4 billion (more than 500 million dollars) in the first five years of deployment" 04:24 < kanzure_> hm, http://ubl.xml.org/forum 04:25 < kanzure_> http://ubl.xml.org/product/unece-recommendation-no-31-electronic-commerce-agreement "The Electronic Commerce Agreement is intended to serve the commercial requirements of business-to-business electronic commerce partners. It contains a basic set of provisions which can ensure that one or more electronic commercial transactions may subsequently be concluded by commercial partners within a sound legal framework." 04:25 < kanzure_> URL = http://www.unece.org/cefact/recommendations/rec31/rec31_ecetrd257e.pdf 04:27 < kanzure_> that looks stupid 04:27 < kanzure_> that's what ebXML's CPP/CPA/CAP things were supposed to do 04:27 < kanzure_> the agreement for what type of medium of communication to be used would be solved through some WSDL/ebXML-repository voodoo magic so that different methods of linking up could be discovered, i.e. "plugins in common". 05:21 * kanzure_ sleeps 06:14 < gene> the UN wants to regulate e commerce? 06:14 < gene> sounds like something out of Crytomoicon 06:15 < gene> we need crypto money 06:22 < fenn> Lindens arent good enough for you? :) 06:22 < fenn> or e-gold 06:29 < kanzure_> cool, I've found a good reason why I hate Nathan's political bent 06:29 < kanzure_> http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/2008-March/041473.html 06:29 < kanzure_> I like finding that I've previously written good reasons to hate shit 06:29 < gene> no 06:29 < gene> they aren't crypto money 06:30 < gene> Fenn I take it you haven't read the Snow Crash, The Diamond Age, or Crytomonoicon 06:31 < gene> *Cryptonomicon 06:31 < fenn> i read the last two 06:31 < fenn> both way too long for their own good 06:31 < gene> well then you know that crypto money is untaxable? 06:31 < fenn> well, diamond age wasnt too bad 06:32 < fenn> so is regular money? 06:32 < gene> Snow Crash ties the two together 06:32 < fenn> hm really 06:32 < gene> yeah 06:32 < gene> in Snow Crash governments collapse because of untaxable e-money 06:33 < fenn> is there a scene with someone being thrown through a second story wall onto a busy chinatown street? 06:33 < gene> sort of 06:33 < gene> but not really 06:33 < fenn> is it a novelization of johnny mnemonic? 06:33 < fenn> (the story) 06:33 < gene> There are burbclaves 06:33 < gene> NO! 06:34 < fenn> the short story 06:34 < fenn> oh i'm thinking of neuromancer 06:34 < gene> no, no one gets thrown from a 2 story building into chinatown traffic 06:35 < gene> the Mafia runs a pizza business 06:35 < gene> in snowcrash 06:35 < gene> and that is all the spoilers you get 06:35 < fenn> wtf so snow crash bridges two authors works? 06:35 < gene> no 06:36 < gene> The Diamond Age and Cryptonomicon are by the same author 06:36 < gene> Neal Stephenson 06:39 < fenn> so, how bout them cyberpunks 06:39 < fenn> i wonder how i got gibson and stephenson so thoroughly confused 06:40 < gene> it's easy 06:40 < gene> everyone does it 06:40 < gene> one time or another 06:42 < fenn> "The idea of a globally interconnected set of computers through which everyone could quickly access data and programs from any site was first described in 1962 in a series of memos on the "Galactic Computer Network" by J.C.R. Licklider of DARPA." 06:45 < fenn> "His ideas foretold of graphical computing, point-and-click interfaces, digital libraries, e-commerce, online banking, and software that would exist on a network and migrate wherever it was needed." 06:46 < fenn> so who was it, licklider or engelbart 06:55 < kanzure_> wait, does it matter? 06:55 < kanzure_> I wonder if either one of them would have known of each other 06:56 < fenn> licklider gave engelbart funding to make NLS 06:56 < fenn> it's not inconceivable that two people would come up with the same ideas independently 07:01 < gene> galactic computer network 07:01 < gene> ??? 07:01 < fenn> actually intergalactic computer network 07:03 < gene> how do you transfer data? Massive Fiber connection? Lasers? Wormholes? Spooky action at a distance? 07:03 < fenn> i'm starting to wonder if Joi Ito is actually human 07:03 < gene> what is Joi Ito? 07:04 < fenn> a person who manages to do large amounts of stuff 07:04 < fenn> small world network node 07:04 < gene> like? 07:05 < fenn> take awesome photos like this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SAGE_console.jpeg 07:06 < fenn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joi_Ito#Later_life 07:13 < fenn> http://www.flickr.com/photos/joi/3002187357/ 07:23 < kanzure_> gene: with an intergalactic netwrok, you'd use quasars. 07:24 < fenn> i'd use spooky action at a distance, personally 07:24 < fenn> but wormholes would work in a pinch 07:24 < fenn> get it? get it? 07:24 < kanzure_> "Information could be coded into signals and sent anywhere, given enough energy. Sent everywhere, this interflow of information. We could speak with the nebular brains of the galaxy. We could extend the galaxy's information ecology. We - every human being, Fravashi, oyster, sentient bacterium, virus, or seal - we could drive our collective consciousness across the two million lightyears of the intergalactic void 07:25 < kanzure_> "to the information ecologies of the nearer galaxies, Andromeda and Maffei and the first Leo - all the galaxies of the local group were alive with intelligence and vibrated with thoughts of organisms as ourselves. Someday the time would come to interface with the ecologies of other groups of galaxies." 07:25 < kanzure_> "Within ten million light-years off the local supergalactic plane of the local supercluster of galaxies were many groups of galaxies. Canes Venatici, the Pavo-Indus and the Ursa galaxies - these burning, brilliant clouds of intelligence and others enveloped our own small galaxy in a sphere of light four hundred million light-years in diameter." 07:25 < kanzure_> "To speak with such distant galaxies would require the energy of a supernova, perhaps many tens of thousands of supernovas." 07:25 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/quotes.html 07:25 < bkero> kanzure_: Sounds like Douglas Rushkoff. 07:26 < fenn> sounds like metalocalypse 07:26 < kanzure_> Heh. 07:26 < bkero> Read: http://www.rushkoff.com/downloadables/cyberiabook/ 07:26 < kanzure_> No, that's Zindell. 07:26 < fenn> seriously though, what would you say? 07:26 < fenn> "dont eat me" 07:26 < kanzure_> "Hello Earthlings!" 07:27 < kanzure_> what would you say? => you'd say a von Neumann probe. 07:27 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/storyverse.html 07:27 < fenn> eek 07:27 < kanzure_> heh 07:27 < fenn> that might be considered an act of war 07:28 < fenn> or like a dog peeing on your shoe maybe 07:29 < kanzure_> that's what it looks like when you run certain cellular automata simulations 07:30 < kanzure_> I was doing a few in the lab (I was very very bored), and it was literally a stream of piss :/ 07:30 < kanzure_> little problets. so maybe it wasn't piss. 07:45 < fenn> "I think we spend way too much of our lives worrying about the risks, at the cost of a lot of the benefits." 07:45 < fenn> so hard to learn to give up fear 07:58 < fenn> i think this was in that movie "metropolis" http://www.flickr.com/photos/joi/2874285211/sizes/l/ 08:01 < fenn> or maybe it was final fantasy VII http://www.flickr.com/photos/joi/2871291912/sizes/l/ 08:28 < fenn> just found this gem of pre-SKDB system crypto-libertarian ranting in my reading list: http://fennetic.net/pub/irc/crossbow 10:14 < fenn> BackType is a sort of "Twitter for comments" that aggregates comments from millions of blogs into a single, searchable, parsable stream. http://www.backtype.com/ 10:15 < fenn> i guess they've never heard of OpenID 13:59 < UtopiahGHML> Linked Data Sets (i.e., with dereferenceable URIs) Available as RDF Dumps http://esw.w3.org/topic/DataSetRDFDumps 14:00 < UtopiahGHML> (hopefuly someone started a repository of repositories tracking data sets) 17:56 < kanzure_> "For a 22-year-old woman known as AW, denim evokes feelings of depression, disgust and worthlessness. Corduroy causes confusion, and silk provides utter contentment. She is one of two people known to experience a newly discovered form of synaesthesia, where textures give rise to strong emotions." 19:41 < kanzure_> What is an "out-of-band legal agreement" ? 19:43 < kanzure_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out-of-band 19:43 < kanzure_> yay wikipedia. 20:02 < kanzure_> http://ruleml.org/ hm.. 20:20 < gene> kanzure can you decompile a flash to extract the tasty sounds from it? 20:51 < kanzure_> gene: search for 'hexx' or 'linux flash', there might be a decompiler 20:51 < kanzure_> or maybe 'flex' 21:28 < kanzure_> I'm still not getting it. ebXML as a transport layer for UBL; fine, I've got that. UBL as an authoring method in OO.o, sure. 21:28 < kanzure_> hermes runs as an ebXML MSH, which I've got that down too 21:28 < kanzure_> now where is the automatic discovery going on here? 21:28 < kanzure_> maybe hermes publishes some WSDL document on the server .. hrm. 21:30 < kanzure_> http://community.cecid.hku.hk/index.php/product/article/the_first_step_you_hermes/ 21:37 < kanzure_> These standards are pretty useless as far as I can tell. I mean, reading through the specs, it's all completely 'ungrounded', and yet somehow these applications exist, so nobody knows what they actually do.. 21:38 < kanzure_> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/ws-juddi-user/200802.mbox/%3c12c441bd0802041114j54664b21j171d5f43b22f76f7@mail.gmail.com%3e <- For instance, I thought that UDDI was supposed to contain WSDL services, rather than publishing a WSDL thingy about the UDDI installation 21:40 < kanzure_> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/ws-juddi-user/200802.mbox/%3c003201c8678f$4749c3e0$d5dd4ba0$@org%3e holy crap an actual example :) 21:43 < kanzure_> http://openuddi.sourceforge.net/wp-content/uploads/monitor.jpg 21:49 < kanzure_> http://www.w3schools.com/WSDL/wsdl_uddi.asp tutorial. 21:49 < kanzure_> "How can UDDI be Used 21:49 < kanzure_> If the industry published an UDDI standard for flight rate checking and reservation, airlines could register their services into an UDDI directory. Travel agencies could then search the UDDI directory to find the airline's reservation interface. When the interface is found, the travel agency can communicate with the service immediately because it uses a well-defined reservation interface." 21:51 < kanzure_> the communication with the service, if I understand correctly, is ebXML MSH i.e. hermes, and then the actual message content is UBL. ... maybe. 22:30 < kanzure_> http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/browse_thread/thread/2eb9f0ca4ce7cbf3?hide_quotes=no#msg_a377caef4a66ce1f 22:30 < kanzure_> I'm so proud of Tom Knight. 22:33 < UtopiahGHML> The systems and businesses that win will exploit socio-cognitive network effects http://web.mac.com/peter.pirolli/Professional/Blog/Entries/2008/8/7_The_systems_and_business_that_win_will_exploit_socio-cognitive_network_effects.html 22:54 < gene> so how do I get the sounds out 23:20 < kanzure_> "a way of operating a touch screen from the rear" 23:42 < gene> saw that 23:42 < gene> on slashdot