--- Day changed Mon Jan 05 2009 00:01 -!- gene__ [n=chatzill@pool-71-164-238-185.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 00:11 -!- gene_ [n=chatzill@pool-71-164-238-185.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:44 -!- gene__ [n=chatzill@pool-71-164-238-185.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:11 -!- wrldpc [n=ben@173.48.207.37] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:36 -!- samrose [n=samrose@c-24-11-214-181.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 08:37 < kanzure_> https://gallery.debconf.org/v/debconf8/ 08:38 -!- jm|afk [n=jm@p57B9CEEB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 08:42 -!- wrldpc [n=ben@173.48.207.37] has joined #hplusroadmap 08:56 -!- jm|earth [n=jm@p57B9D4A5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:51 -!- wrldpc [n=ben@173.48.207.37] has quit [] 12:00 -!- wrldpc [n=ben@c-98-217-197-216.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 12:02 < kanzure_> http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:268 ""This is also the first item in a concept oomlout.com is working on dubbed "open manufacturing". (more to follow) 12:02 < kanzure_> http://oomlout.com/ 12:03 < kanzure_> http://oomlout.com/cnc1.html desktop cnc router 12:07 < kanzure_> somebody stalk down Stuart McFarlan for me. 12:42 < kanzure_> fenn_: globalvillages@yahoogroups.com, 12:42 < kanzure_> factorefarm@googlegroups.com, 12:42 < kanzure_> solar-turbine@googlegroups.com, 12:42 < kanzure_> erm, I meant to mention to fenn_ that openfarmtech is looking for some more people to live with them (I think) 12:53 -!- samrose [n=samrose@c-24-11-214-181.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:08 -!- wrldpc [n=ben@c-98-217-197-216.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 13:39 < kanzure_> http://3dcontentcentral.com/3DContentCentral/ 13:42 < parodyoflanguage> Oh no, they said "take the red pill" :) 13:43 < parodyoflanguage> I don't think that was the right place to refer to The Matrix movies. 13:45 < parodyoflanguage> But the openfarmtech stuff is fascinating. 14:09 < fenn_> rawr 14:09 -!- fenn_ is now known as fenn 14:10 < fenn> oh internet, I have neglected you. i am sorry. 14:11 -!- samrose [n=samrose@c-24-11-214-181.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 14:16 < fenn> parodyoflanguage> Do any of you know of any existing open source software for physics simulations that *isn't* developed for gaming? 14:16 < fenn> brl-cad 14:16 < fenn> but it's mostly about x-ray penetration or whatever 14:17 < fenn> not bouncing blobs or CFD 14:17 < fenn> oh i guess i should continue reading the rest of the backlog 14:21 < kanzure_> the internets be a harsh mistress 14:25 -!- nsh [n=nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has joined #hplusroadmap 14:26 < fenn> "individuals who own industrial engineering firms and post over 10,000 times on a forum" are you talking about mariss freimanis? :) 14:29 < bkero> fenn: Wasnt brlcad developed for ballistics physics? 14:31 < kanzure_> fenn: talking about Sean Dalton and RND Automation/Engineering. 14:32 < kanzure_> Dotson. 14:32 < kanzure_> sorry 14:32 < parodyoflanguage> fenn: There's a lot out there, but many of them seem to be defunct research projects. 14:33 < parodyoflanguage> In order to understand more about fea I've been teaching myself about tensors. 14:33 < kanzure_> meh 14:48 < fenn> parallel parking system is pretty lame.. dymaxion car solved that problem much more elegantly 14:51 < kanzure_> bucky's dead. 14:53 < fenn> so are lots of people 14:54 < fenn> in my 3-wheeler i'm not going to try to rotate the back wheel, rather it will just have a little caster that can flip down and then you tank-steer with the front wheels 14:56 < fenn> ah <3 google: http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview/id/703709.html 14:56 < fenn> "Subject: More dead people or alive people?" 14:58 < bkero> kanzure_: live with them? 14:59 < fenn> openfarmtech needs manual labor and smarts condensed into a tiny space with zero funding 15:00 -!- gene [n=chatzill@pool-71-164-238-185.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 15:00 < fenn> something is wrong with the business model 15:01 < fenn> but hey, what else am i doing 15:01 < fenn> it might seem more appealing if it were in a warm climate 15:01 < gene> business model? 15:02 < fenn> yes, the "OSE business plan for world domination" or whatever 15:03 * fenn goes to transfer some mass and volume to its new location 15:03 < fenn> the mass and the volume are separate, in this case 15:03 < parodyoflanguage> Well, that's the thing. 15:06 < gene> mass and volume seperate??? 15:06 < parodyoflanguage> It seems to me if compressed-earth houses were all that great, we'd all be using them. It probably was state of the art technology all those years ago, but what we have now is probably a couple orders of magnitude better. 15:07 < gene> oh yeah rammed earth housing 15:07 < gene> is it cheaper than wood? 15:07 < parodyoflanguage> See here for example: http://openfarmtech.org/weblog/?p=451 15:08 < kanzure_> parodyoflanguage: It's not about what's better. 15:08 < parodyoflanguage> gene: Well, they're aiming, I think, for less dependency, which creates a centralized economy. 15:08 < kanzure_> it's about what you can actually make 15:08 < gene> is it stronger than wood? 15:08 < fenn> it doesnt require cutting down trees and shipping them all over the world 15:08 < parodyoflanguage> kanzure: It is because they are expecting people to live in these houses, and for these kinds of houses to take over from what we have now. 15:09 < parodyoflanguage> fenn: Yeah. 15:09 < fenn> it's about autonomy and logistics, not strength/weight ratio or whatever 15:09 < kanzure_> No, they're not expecting them to just blindly take over, parodyoflanguage. 15:09 < gene> is it cost competitive with wood? 15:09 < kanzure_> gene: they don't really involve much money in what they are doing 15:09 < fenn> gene: stop trolling 15:10 < fenn> steel bars and styrofoam 15:10 < parodyoflanguage> If you constantly have to repair the walls then it makes you wonder if the effort is worth it. 15:11 < fenn> parodyoflanguage: you should check out some of his links on rammed earth architecture 15:11 < fenn> some of the buildings are 100+ years old and look just like baked brick 15:11 < gene> cool 15:11 < parodyoflanguage> Who is "he"? 15:11 < fenn> marcin 15:11 < gene> so what are the disadvanteges 15:12 < fenn> you have to make the bricks 15:12 < parodyoflanguage> fenn: I'll check it out. If they can make enduring materials from compressed earth, all the power to all of us. 15:12 < gene> that's it? 15:12 < fenn> uh, and they're heavy 15:13 < fenn> i dont know about r-value or whether that matters 15:13 < gene> that can a be a good thing 15:13 < fenn> not in my mind it isnt 15:13 < gene> especially if you live in tornado alley 15:13 < gene> no termite problem that is an advantage 15:13 < parodyoflanguage> Okay, here's my question. Take a compressed earth brick, doesn't it lose it's compression over time? 15:14 < parodyoflanguage> Why doesn't it fall apart over time? 15:14 < fenn> why would it fall apart? 15:14 < fenn> it's basically artificial sandstone 15:14 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/List_of_industrial_manufacturing_automation_engineering_design_firms#RND_Automation_.26_Engineering 15:14 < parodyoflanguage> fenn: Because there's nothing holding it together. 15:14 < fenn> parodyoflanguage: what's holding wood together? 15:14 < parodyoflanguage> fenn: Fiber. 15:14 < fenn> or regular bricks 15:14 < fenn> or stones 15:15 < parodyoflanguage> fenn: van der walls forces :) These solids have a crystaline structure that binds it together. 15:15 < parodyoflanguage> or so I think :) 15:16 < parodyoflanguage> Well, bricks don't have a crystal structure, I don't think. 15:16 < parodyoflanguage> But, no, I don't know what binds cement together or clay. 15:17 < fenn> they are sintered, so it's a ceramic which is sorta halfway between glass and crystal 15:17 < parodyoflanguage> Even clay, which is found in soil, needs to be heated. 15:17 < fenn> "needs" why? 15:17 < parodyoflanguage> fenn: Look, I'm studying my chemistry, I don't have all the answers :) 15:18 < fenn> a lot of people hear "compressed earth" and think "mud hut" 15:18 < parodyoflanguage> fenn: Well, how long to the CE bricks last? 15:18 < parodyoflanguage> *to --> do 15:19 < fenn> hundreds of years apparently 15:20 < parodyoflanguage> Eh, I have to go. Nice talking. I'll keep open minded about this project which I think is fascinating, but I have to have *some* skepticism. 15:20 < gene> so is compressed earth sort like a dorodango? 15:20 < parodyoflanguage> I'll have to see if there's an FAQ on the openfarmtech website. 15:21 < fenn> i need a mind->google interface, with "image as query" mode 15:22 < kanzure_> the keyboard. 15:22 < fenn> i have this picture of a building in my head which i can't find 15:22 < fenn> i saw it once, on the internet 15:23 < fenn> make sense now? 15:23 < gene> man I wish I had one of those too 15:23 < fenn> gene: it's not a dorodango, whatever that is 15:24 < gene> dorodango is a shiny ball of soil 15:24 < gene> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorodango 15:24 < kanzure_> why not just go read their compressed earth bric page? 15:24 < kanzure_> *brick 15:24 < fenn> some silly thing you read in a william gibson novel? 15:24 < gene> no 15:24 < gene> I saw it on the internets 15:25 < gene> http://sleepygi.setupmyblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/gardner%20dorodango.jpg 15:25 < gene> this is a good example of one 15:26 < gene> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rammed_earth 15:26 < gene> quite cool 15:26 < fenn> rammed earth is not the same process 15:26 < gene> oh shoot 15:29 < gene> how are they different? 15:29 < fenn> in one you're bulldozing together huge walls of earth 15:30 < gene> oh 15:30 < fenn> and the other you're making finely tuned mixtures of different minerals and compressing them into blocks 15:30 < kanzure_> http://openfarmtech.org/weblog/?cat=13 15:31 < fenn> i wonder how they are going to move those huge pallets of bricks around 15:32 < gene> tractors 15:33 < gene> on a farm you have to have a tractor 15:33 < fenn> tractor on muddy soil moving a cubic meter of compressed earth? 15:34 < gene> tractors might be able to do it 15:34 < gene> so is it easier than other building methods, if so I might have a use for it 15:36 < fenn> looks like they stack the bricks by hand.. i thought the whole idea was to have this machine pooping out bricks right on the wall 15:36 < gene> could I build a barn out of these bricks? 15:37 < kanzure_> it shouldn't be too hard to have some adjustable bars/guides to slide bricks down or something into place 15:37 < kanzure_> maybe a little escalator method even.. 15:38 < gene> oh as in automatic construction of buildings 15:38 < kanzure_> is there a way to do external image hotlinking in mediawiki? 15:39 < kanzure_> $wgAllowExternalImages 15:39 < kanzure_> bwahahah 15:39 < kanzure_> I win the internets 15:40 < gene> and I just lost the game' 15:43 -!- samrose [n=samrose@c-24-11-214-181.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:44 < gene> so I would like to build a building out of this stuff, where do I start? 15:45 < fenn> acquire or build a ram 15:46 < fenn> search the intarwebs for how to do that, or help with SKDB and all the crap we've been talking about for momnths 15:46 < gene> would a bulldozer work? 15:49 < fenn> no 15:51 -!- nsh [n=nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:52 < gene> ok then 15:57 < fenn> too bad this didnt take off http://www.linuxdevices.com/files/misc/openbrick.jpg 15:58 < gene> I can't built a house out of that, that's too expensive 16:01 < fenn> party pooper 16:01 < gene> though if I did, it would be awesome 16:07 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/List_of_industrial_manufacturing_automation_engineering_design_firms 16:07 < kanzure_> I need to stop :/ 16:10 -!- samrose [n=samrose@c-24-11-214-181.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 16:12 < kanzure_> hi sam 16:39 -!- parodyoflanguage [n=klh@mmds-216-19-34-118.twm.az.commspeed.net] has quit [] 17:12 -!- nsh [n=nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has joined #hplusroadmap 17:32 < kanzure_> fenn: being reasonable, do we honestly think that anybody is going to learn python just to type up instructions? 17:32 < kanzure_> or put instructions in a format where they look for things already in the database 17:52 -!- samrose_ [n=samrose@c-24-11-214-181.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 18:55 -!- samrose [n=samrose@c-24-11-214-181.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:19 -!- samrose_ [n=samrose@c-24-11-214-181.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:28 < fenn> kanzure_: no, that's why the yaml format 19:28 < fenn> i can't parse " put instructions in a format where they look for things already in the database" 19:29 < fenn> there will probably be "wizards" or whatever, programs that hold your hand and walk you thru the package creation process 19:30 < fenn> that's the thing that annoys me about ruby on rails 19:30 < fenn> it takes ten seconds of typing to set up some super duper thingy, but you have to read 50 webpages to figure out what to type 19:32 < kanzure_> the instruction format. I was thinking it would just be "screw.Instructions" (or whatever), then set an environmental variable for english mode or not or whatever 19:32 < kanzure_> and then the recipes would be a collection of each of those individual steps 19:32 < kanzure_> but the problem with this is that so far I'm pretty sure that this can't be done for proper linking of the individual steps to one another (per the emails that were going around on debian-devel, debtags etc.) 19:32 < kanzure_> so this might as well end up as hand-written instructions.. 19:33 < kanzure_> (but dependencies are still a requirement) 19:48 < kanzure_> beep poke bop 19:54 < fenn> i dont get it 19:54 < fenn> what's the problem? 19:55 < fenn> for i in `get dependencies`; do cat i.instructions >> recipe; done 19:55 < kanzure_> I was trying to do automatic recipe substitutions 19:55 < kanzure_> uhh 19:55 < fenn> or whatever flavor you prefer 19:55 < kanzure_> runtime dependencies v. build dependencies. 19:56 < fenn> runtime instructions is a whole nother ball of wax 19:56 < kanzure_> "20 cc/sec water" v. "needs plastic injection molding machine" 19:56 < kanzure_> right but that's how it works for instructions .. those instructions are just glorified CAM 19:56 < fenn> a hammer can be used for many things 19:58 < kanzure_> so what. 19:58 < kanzure_> anyway, you're alright with plaintext build instructions or not? 19:59 < kanzure_> http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2009/01/msg00070.html 19:59 < kanzure_> http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2009/01/msg00094.html 19:59 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/shell.html 20:00 < kanzure_> what I'm trying to say is that that same stuff for interconnecting programs automatically (parameter representation, applicable formats) is what's needed to do all that with recipes.. 20:05 < kanzure_> what I'm thinking of doing instead, for build instructions, is to let the user do documentation (by hand) for instructions, but also have individual instructions for each dependency (what the other maintainers typed in (but those packages have dependencies with instructions too)) 20:05 < kanzure_> and not any sort of magical interoperability that I've been wishing for .. 20:35 < gene> can I get some compressed earth brick links fenn? 20:38 < gene> it looks like this is cost competitive with wood 20:59 < gene> or would be without timber subsidies 21:10 < fenn> wtf am i some sort of compressed earth block expert now? 21:11 < fenn> plaintext build instruction = instructables 21:12 < fenn> hell, even they have some pictures and metadata 21:12 < fenn> like the little squares in the picture that hilight when you mouse over them 21:12 < fenn> i think text is a terrible medium for explaining how to build something 21:13 < fenn> insert eric hunting rant re: legos and gundam figurine assembly instructions 21:14 < fenn> the dave gingery books were mostly diagrams, with lots of repetitive "now do the same for this, now do the same for that" 21:14 < fenn> text is fine for describing a general process, but not specific instances 21:16 < kanzure_> but you've just avoided the issue that I've been describing though 21:16 < kanzure_> basically what you're saying is that there *does* have to be some discrete method so that you can string instructions together 21:17 < kanzure_> meanwhile I'm pointing out that the interconnection of these instructions with different information passing between them is not something that we've so far been able to tackle 21:18 < kanzure_> "parameter passing markup language" 21:18 < fenn> can i have an example please 21:18 * fenn hates when people start talking about "information" 21:19 < kanzure_> uh, what's the point of doing something in order if there's nothing that the previous steps were doing on the information/materials 21:20 < kanzure_> something in order == steps in an instruction set 21:20 < kanzure_> and I doubt that a single variable that you pass between the steps is good enough. 21:20 < fenn> well, the steps each have dependencies i guess 21:20 < kanzure_> pick it up -> give it to something else 21:20 < kanzure_> there is information between those two steps that have to be conveyed 21:21 < kanzure_> that's why I've been on about the "Semantic Shell" (say it sarcastically) and i.e., figuring out how to pass certain variables to different steps 21:21 < fenn> nothing sarcastic about it 21:21 < kanzure_> except that it's not really working out so far 21:21 < fenn> if the semantic web people didnt have their heads so far up their asses and actually would have accomplished something by now, you could say it enthusiastically 21:21 < kanzure_> did you read Erich's emails? 21:22 < fenn> erich = eric hunting? or some other eric? (in which case, no) 21:22 < kanzure_> the debian guys just took the easy way out and went with 'debtags' 21:22 < kanzure_> erich, from the lists.debian.org links above 21:22 < fenn> debtags is useless 21:22 < kanzure_> yep 21:22 < kanzure_> it has this works-with-format tag 21:22 < fenn> does anything use it at all? 21:22 < kanzure_> erich was trying to do what the "semantic shell" was supposed to do 21:22 < kanzure_> but he ended up wimping out and going with debtags 21:22 < fenn> should have stuck with his original RDF-ish idea 21:23 < fenn> i dont think each program would end up with its own verb 21:23 < kanzure_> how's that? read, write, displays, .. 21:23 < fenn> 'google' is just slang for "search using google" 21:24 < fenn> i dont know enough about rdf 21:24 < kanzure_> me either 21:24 * fenn scrolls down to page 5 in the todo list 21:24 < kanzure_> short todo list. 21:24 < fenn> meta meta todo: come up with new categories for sorting todo lists 21:25 < fenn> all the stuff that really needs to get done isn't on the todo list anyway 21:26 < kanzure_> I also contacted Colin (man maintainer) 21:26 < fenn> why? 21:26 < kanzure_> maybe he had heard of something related to more formal markup on documentation ("how to use this package") 21:26 < kanzure_> and the answer was no. 21:26 < fenn> oh 21:26 < fenn> man pages are pretty standardized as far as documentation goes 21:27 < kanzure_> yes, but not if you want your program to "auto find me something that takes in PDF and throw in the right parameters for me" 21:27 < fenn> considering the humongously disparate development effort 21:27 < kanzure_> ("and then display me the text options via the ncurses aptitude interface thingy, so that I can select what I want") 21:27 < fenn> yeah this really ought to exist 21:28 < fenn> even if it's a failure to take off 21:28 < fenn> (network effects are a bitch to get started) 21:28 < kanzure_> screw the network effect, just tell me how to make it work :( 21:28 < fenn> 1) get 1000 monkeys and 1000 terminals 21:29 < fenn> 2) teach them RDF 21:29 < fenn> 3) start documenting debian packages in order of popularity (see popularity contest package) 21:29 < kanzure_> RDF == handwaving 21:29 < kanzure_> AFAIK. 21:30 < fenn> subject verb object 21:30 < fenn> basically 21:30 < kanzure_> I just don't think that's useful. 21:30 < kanzure_> package program object? 21:30 < kanzure_> hrm. 21:30 < fenn> uh, in all the examples object was a mime type 21:31 < kanzure_> but you've ignored everything about parameter syntax 21:31 < fenn> but whatever, i'm not convinced anyone really knows rdf 21:31 < kanzure_> heh, it's a scam! 21:31 < fenn> right, so it'd be some awful construction like program-with-syntax-&29994436 21:31 < fenn> as the subject 21:31 < fenn> and then another one program-with-syntax-&29994436 has-gnu-getopt-flag --blarf 21:31 < kanzure_> eww, common local db of known instruction formats, standardized across a list of known possibles priorly encountered 21:32 < kanzure_> I've kind of thought that one way to do this right is to look at when you write quick scripts 21:32 < fenn> please rephrase 'standardized...' 21:32 < kanzure_> you always do some quick --help option or something 21:33 < kanzure_> but then you just resort to a print statement with english-help stuff. 21:33 < kanzure_> I wonder if it would be useful to incorporate into the autoproject tools (generates source files and make files, skeleton program structure) 21:33 < kanzure_> the 'proper' formatted help interface documentation 21:33 < fenn> i think you've run into the symbol grounding problem again 21:33 < kanzure_> i.e. this could be done as an api or library to apply from step one to a program 21:33 < kanzure_> and so the options to pass to a program would be handled by this library or api. 21:34 < kanzure_> possibly allowing object data to be pushed through? etc.? 21:34 < fenn> automake does something similar, but it's basically a programming language 21:34 < kanzure_> huh? what in particular 21:35 < fenn> and requires constant care and feeding 21:35 < kanzure_> you mean that it generates the make files? 21:35 < fenn> well, automake is really just a shell around make 21:35 < fenn> and it figures out the easy stuff, like where the libraries are 21:35 < fenn> or maybe i'm thinking autoconf 21:36 < fenn> Automake generates a makefile that allows the user to: 21:36 < fenn> compile the program; 21:36 < fenn> clean (i.e., remove the files resulting from the compilation); 21:36 < fenn> install the program in standard directories; 21:36 < fenn> uninstall the program from where it was installed; 21:36 < fenn> create a source distribution archive (commonly called a tarball); 21:36 < fenn> test that this archive is self-sufficient 21:38 < fenn> i think the graphical apt-get frontends use debtags to sort packages into categories 21:38 < kanzure_> oh, another thought i scribbled down was "input output template files" ("IOTs") which would tell you all input formats that the program accepts, as sort of a bulk thing you scan through 21:38 < fenn> synaptic or aptitude, forget which 21:39 < fenn> oh like DTD? :) 21:39 < kanzure_> I'm pretty sure DTD isn't the same thing .. I've read through DTD files so many times. not sure how that applies here. 21:40 < kanzure_> it just defines valid attributes, not their order or mime-typeage 21:40 < kanzure_> or does it? 21:40 < fenn> the idea is that it defines a valid input file 21:40 < fenn> the set of all valid input files, usually 21:40 < fenn> only works with XML data tho 21:41 < fenn> i wonder if there are computer readable descriptions of mime type datas anywhere 21:41 < fenn> or just the raw code to parse and do stuff with it 21:42 < fenn> (is there a difference?) 21:42 < fenn> O aristotle help me! 21:42 < fenn> what is the metaphysical nature of understanding... 21:43 < gene> fuck aristotle 21:44 < kanzure_> give me something good to pick up on demonoid. I am bored and without amphetamine in my blood. 21:44 < gene> 1800 mechanical movements 21:44 < kanzure_> an anime 21:44 < gene> the melancholy of haruhi suzumiya 21:45 < gene> pani poni dash, but only if you are an otaku 21:45 < kanzure_> if it's bad, do I get to kill you and take your immortality points? 21:45 < kanzure_> that's how this works, right? 21:45 < gene> then watch the melancholy of haruhi suzumiya 21:46 < kanzure_> do you recommend the subs or the dubs? 21:46 < gene> subs man 21:49 < gene> wait you're gonna kill me if it's bad? 21:50 < gene> you're downloading it? 21:51 < kanzure_> heh 21:52 -!- `tty` [n=_tty_@c-67-171-16-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 21:53 < kanzure_> Hi `tty`. 21:53 < `tty`> hey Bryan 21:53 < gene> I need not worry, Melancholy is a good anime :) 21:54 < fenn> haruhi dubs weren't bad, seems like there would be too much information going through the bottom of the screen to keep up 21:54 < gene> dubs tell you so much more 21:54 < gene> like explaining japanese puns 21:55 * kanzure_ downloads herbie rides again 21:55 < kanzure_> http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=%22herbie+rides+again%22++trailer&www_google_domain=www.google.com&hl=en&emb=0# 21:56 < gene> why? 21:56 * `tty` watching herbie does frisco 21:57 < gene> I would like to see cory doctrow write his interpretation of Herbie 21:58 < `tty`> hey, why don't we have a fun hardware project on OM, to get things going 21:58 < `tty`> like build your own _____ 21:58 < kanzure_> we already do kinda 21:58 < `tty`> what is it? 21:58 < kanzure_> the idea is to package previously built open source hardware projects 21:58 < gene> _________= micro ECM mill? 21:58 < kanzure_> http://p2pfoundation.net/Product_Hacking for a list of open source hardware projects. 21:58 < gene> made from CD drive? 21:59 < `tty`> yeah but what can you pitch the group that's inspiring and FUN.. something specific 21:59 < gene> c'mon let's build and ECM micro mill! 21:59 < `tty`> what is it? 21:59 < `tty`> desktop CNC? 21:59 < gene> yes 22:00 < kanzure_> I think packaging something already made is inspiring and fun 22:00 < gene> more like cluttered desk CNC 22:00 < `tty`> that would be cool... very functional too 22:00 < kanzure_> like mechmate, reprap, the CNC routers, .. 22:00 < `tty`> kanzure: be more specific please 22:00 < `tty`> what hardware project? 22:00 < gene> a really small CNC machine capable of cutting titanium 22:00 < kanzure_> what do I need to be more specific about 22:00 < kanzure_> `tty`: pick one: http://p2pfoundation.net/Product_Hacking 22:00 < gene> and other hard metals 22:00 < `tty`> sheesh 22:00 < `tty`> k, let me see 22:02 < fenn> i understand the problem 22:02 < fenn> engineers are motivated by having something on their bench that "does something" 22:03 < gene> So the hurdle I'm facing to making a small CNC mill is getting tiny accurate linear actuators 22:03 < fenn> if you just have a bunch of software that isn't finished/in a useful state, nobody cares and the engineers drift out of the group 22:03 < gene> fenn you are correct 22:03 < fenn> and we end up with lots of philosophers and political rants 22:03 < kanzure_> lots of bullshit rants too 22:03 < kanzure_> but starting from scratch, when other open source projects do the same thing 22:03 < kanzure_> that's kind of questionable gene :) 22:03 < fenn> the problem is that "does something" is not terribly useful in the long term 22:04 < fenn> but half-finished software is 22:04 < fenn> (when it gets finished) 22:04 < `tty`> http://opensourcemachine.org/mm2html2/How_to_build_a_multimachine.html 22:04 < fenn> oh ffs i hate that thing 22:04 < `tty`> looking for something 'smaller' 22:04 < gene> so I'm thinking of using CD drives, but having to rely on one brand of CD drive might limit repeatability 22:04 < fenn> please don't bring it up 22:05 < `tty`> lol 22:05 < fenn> `tty`: you could re-package the gingery mill and modernize the processes 22:05 < kanzure_> yay 22:05 < fenn> for example by using lost foam casting instead of green sand 22:05 < kanzure_> if you need the gingery books, I have a zip 22:05 < gene> then buy a $1200 korean micromill 22:05 < fenn> i was going to do this but lost interest a few years ago 22:05 < fenn> much info on my wiki to get you started: http://fennetic.net/machines/ 22:06 < fenn> in particular http://fennetic.net/machines/21st_century 22:07 < `tty`> http://reprap.org/bin/view/Main/ItemsMade 22:07 < fenn> and http://fennetic.net/machines/index.php?import_tools 22:07 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/books/Manufacturing/gingery/gingery_books/ 22:07 < `tty`> the RepRap thing... looks modern, compact, flimsy 22:07 < gene> but it works(barely) 22:08 < gene> http://www.robofun.net/forum/redirect.php?fid=63&tid=1584&goto=nextnewset 22:08 < gene> check this out 22:08 < gene> doesn't work but it's cool 22:08 < `tty`> k, so I first had interest in this rapid prototyping stuff back in 89/90 ... MIT was leading in that area at that time... I was most interested not in the UV laser curing models but in the ceramic powder+glue spray model 22:08 < fenn> reprap is not a bad design, but it's no milling machine 22:09 < gene> Z-corp? 22:09 < gene> zcorp uses plaster and food-dyed water 22:09 < `tty`> I don't remember.. maybe z-corp is an MIt spinoff.. I saw the model at work in the labd 22:09 < gene> you can make your own Z-corp: 22:09 < `tty`> but I'm wondering how the tech has evolved since 22:10 < `tty`> what does RepRap use? 22:10 < `tty`> curable polymer? 22:10 < `tty`> UV curable? 22:10 < fenn> no 22:10 < gene> reprap uses thermoplastic 22:10 < fenn> it squirts molten plastic out of a small hole 22:10 < `tty`> nice, so it's IR then 22:10 < `tty`> oh 22:10 < gene> no 22:10 < `tty`> k 22:10 < fenn> resistive heater (nichrome wire) 22:10 < gene> it's direct heat transfer 22:11 < `tty`> melts the plastic and uses something like a 3D inkjet 22:11 < fenn> no, more like cake frosting 22:11 < gene> think plotter 22:11 < gene> more like a a 3d pen plotter 22:11 < `tty`> right... 22:12 < fenn> there's some interesting stuff happening with laser sintering, but it's all hush-hush pre-patent stuff 22:12 < `tty`> can I make cinder-block-sized lego pieces with it? and how fast? 22:12 < gene> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4Y8WnSKvC8 22:12 < fenn> (not associated with reprap or anything) 22:12 < fenn> `tty`: it's not for large things, they would take too long 22:13 < fenn> if you really wanted to make cinder block sized legos, you could use a vacuum former 22:13 < gene> who cares if it takes too long if it's automated 22:13 < fenn> well, they would cost like $50 in raw materials too 22:14 < gene> then you have have big lego pieces with almost no load bearing ability 22:14 < `tty`> well, i really want to... I want to build a tree house using lego designs 22:14 < `tty`> including flat pieces, for floor and ceiling 22:14 < gene> fenn the 3d printers at my uni run overnight 22:14 < fenn> khosnevis is working on extruded ceramic and concrete that you could use for big stuff 22:15 < `tty`> the video you pasted is very impressive 22:15 < gene> sound like you might want to do some sort of casting 22:15 < `tty`> well, i want to make the molds 22:15 < fenn> uh, i dunno.. ABS plastic is expensive in quantity 22:15 < `tty`> using so called "rapid" prototyping 22:15 < fenn> most consumer crap made from it is highly optimized to reduce the amount of plastic 22:15 < kanzure_> so let me get this straight 22:15 < gene> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication/ 22:15 < kanzure_> you started off suggesting OM gets around to doing a community project 22:15 < gene> more info 22:15 < kanzure_> but in reality you have alterior motives 22:15 < `tty`> yes 22:15 < kanzure_> okay 22:15 < `tty`> both 22:15 < kanzure_> just making sure. 22:15 < gene> don't we all 22:16 < kanzure_> no 22:16 < kanzure_> we don't. 22:16 < `tty`> i have alterior motives coming out of my pores 22:16 < `tty`> whatever... 22:16 < `tty`> just thinking of what would appeal to everyone 22:16 < gene> kanzure I want my own autofac for making robots, that's why I joined OM 22:16 < kanzure_> go back to your brainstorming 22:16 < gene> Right away Captain Kanzure! 22:16 < `tty`> and the guys here seem to be in sync on some kind of fabrication tech 22:17 < `tty`> as opposed to a robot or some such thing 22:17 < kanzure_> sure 22:17 < gene> ok so tty do you know how to program microcontrollers? 22:17 < `tty`> i think it will be symolic of OM ... a robot wouldn't 22:18 < `tty`> I know how to program anything as long as you have the manual 22:18 < `tty`> :) 22:18 < fenn> gene: that youtube video, is it plaster and water? 22:18 < gene> some very weird plaster mixture 22:18 < gene> with possibly guarana in it 22:18 < `tty`> PICs are the thing now... I worked with Z80 back in the day, and MC68032 I think 22:19 < `tty`> then the Basic Stamp, which was ridiculous 22:19 < `tty`> and looking at more open source PIC stuff now 22:19 < fenn> guarana hehe 22:19 < gene> here is a description of what the powder is made of. 22:19 < gene> It's just dental plaster ( Durone 4 Brand) + 30% of weight 22:19 < gene> maltodextrin( midway brand, guarana with acai flavor). 22:19 < fenn> `tty`: PIC is out of style, read up on AVR microcontrollers 22:19 < gene> I did try some other flavors but it doesn't work well as this one. 22:19 < gene> I don't know why, maybe the guarana or acai helps on bonding. 22:19 < gene> I did try just maltodextrose but it won't work as good as the one 22:19 < gene> mentioned. 22:19 < gene> I'm using just destilated water on the printer cartridge. 22:19 < gene> the heater on the building chamber helps the water to dry out 22:19 < gene> faster,and stay on that layer only.Plus the models won't need to go to 22:19 < gene> the owen to dry out.It's made of a 40w soldering iron screwed to the 22:19 < gene> alluminum plate on the building bin. 22:19 < gene> I'll be posting more pictures of next week. 22:19 < gene> oops it was acai 22:20 < `tty`> thanks fenn .. .AVR.. no idea what that is 22:20 < gene> I haven't worked with any microcontroller except for lego smart bricks 22:20 < fenn> it's like a PIC you can program in C, ("real" C) 22:20 < gene> Just got an idea for what OM could do 22:20 < kanzure_> atmel does AVR 22:20 < fenn> or you can write ASM for it if you are into that 22:20 < gene> build a universal constructor from lego 22:20 < kanzure_> gene, don't forget that most of the people on OM already have their own damn fablabs 22:21 < gene> really? 22:21 < fenn> not "most" 22:21 < fenn> but an unusually high proportion 22:21 < kanzure_> there's at least two fablab owners methinks 22:21 < gene> that changes everything 22:21 < kanzure_> and then there's the factor efarm guys 22:21 < fenn> bah i have as much of a fablab as they do :) 22:21 < kanzure_> yeah, if you donated 10 bucks to them they'd do anything for you 22:21 < gene> http://forums.reprap.org/read.php?70,11563,page=3 22:21 < `tty`> i'm not into ASM if I can program in C ... I hardly push those things.. .except in the case of Z80.. we had to write a real-time multi-tasking OS 22:21 < gene> hehehehe... 22:21 * fenn puts an "engineer for hire" sign in the window 22:22 < gene> so we have a chicken for laying eggs...' 22:22 < `tty`> and one time we hired this British dude who programmed ARM in ASM for a music sequencer on the gameboy 22:22 < fenn> we have a pile of dead chickens.. 22:22 < `tty`> but healthy eggs 22:23 < fenn> oh that was a metaphor.. hm 22:23 < fenn> what do i do with all these chickens 22:23 < `tty`> recycle? 22:23 < kanzure_> brb 22:24 < fenn> acai is high in ascorbic acid, maybe it changes the pH 22:24 < kanzure_> nevermind :) 22:24 < `tty`> you can get anti-oxidants poisoning.. if you take in too much 22:25 < `tty`> and i mean like 20+ bottles a day 22:25 < fenn> i wonder if anyone's done super-saturated sugar solution printing 22:25 < gene> so let's talk about steppers, linear steppers 22:25 < fenn> shut up about linear steppers!! 22:25 < fenn> or at least use the right terminology 22:25 < `tty`> well the candyfab thing, right? what is super-saturated? going over my head 22:26 < gene> fenn i've tried to do super saturated printing with sodium acetate, it didn't work out so well 22:26 < fenn> `tty`: a crystal forms when a solution is above its saturation concentration and there is a seed crystal present 22:26 < `tty`> hmm.. nice 22:26 < fenn> the concentration varies with temperature (higher temp = higher concentration) 22:27 < fenn> so if you dissolve sugar in warm water and let it cool off (such as what happens when you squirt it out of an inkjet) it will crystallize rapidly 22:27 < fenn> gene: i was thinking printing onto a bed of sugar with sugar solution 22:27 < gene> put supersaturated solution in a syringe, tip of the syringe dries forming crystal fucking up everything 22:27 < fenn> like half z-corp half candy-fab 22:27 < gene> that's not either z-corp or candyfab 22:28 < `tty`> what would you do with a DeskFab if you had one today? Personally, I'd use it to build molds, but then what kind of material can I bake inside a plastic mold? 22:28 < gene> that's something new entirely 22:28 < fenn> ok you're right, it's not 22:28 < gene> so would you use inkjets 22:28 < fenn> yes 22:28 < gene> where do you get the inkjet? 22:28 < fenn> office depot 22:29 < fenn> (do you really need to ask that question?) 22:29 < gene> thermal inkjets might not work so well for stuff other than ink 22:29 < fenn> i'm not talking about replicators, just "make" commity crap 22:29 < fenn> HP makes piezo inkjets now right? 22:30 < `tty`> real question: what kind of material can I bake inside a plastic mold? 22:30 < gene> yeah, but piezo inkjets aren't replaceable 22:30 < `tty`> like a micture of chipped wood and glue? just set it in the mold and wait for it to harden? 22:30 < gene> use a silicone mold 'tty' 22:30 < gene> for cooking 22:30 < `tty`> but isn't silicone rubbery? 22:30 < `tty`> deforms? 22:31 < fenn> `tty`: step 1) define the problem. 22:31 < fenn> step 2) solve the problem. 22:31 < `tty`> ok: 22:31 < gene> piezo inkjets can be cleaned out 22:32 < fenn> mmm but the ink adds that special straight-from-the-factory flavor 22:32 < `tty`> 1) I need a rapid prototyping solution that is inexpensive, can be built under a month with less than $400 and can produce cinder-block-sized objects. i want to use it to make molds for the lego pieces 22:32 < fenn> "can be built under a month with less than $400" isnt going to happen, sorry 22:32 < gene> hmmm... I've heard of people putting cells and silica particles through thermal inkjets so it might be a problem 22:32 < `tty`> oops 22:32 < gene> cut foam form 22:33 < gene> do foam casting 22:33 < gene> ??? 22:33 < `tty`> ok, so I can google that... 22:33 < gene> profit? 22:33 < `tty`> NO 22:33 < `tty`> pleasure 22:33 < fenn> `tty`: perhaps you could find someone in your area that does this and has a working machine already? 22:33 < gene> have you considered papercraft? 22:33 < `tty`> tree house ... shed, etc ... 22:33 < fenn> gene? 22:33 < fenn> papercraft for molds... come on 22:33 < `tty`> lol 22:34 < gene> oops, I mean might not be a problem putting sugar through 22:34 < gene> it can be done 22:34 < `tty`> foam casting.. what kind of material can I set into a foam mold? 22:34 < gene> metal 22:34 < gene> only metal 22:34 < fenn> concrete 22:34 < fenn> fiberglass 22:34 < gene> if you dissolve the foam 22:34 < fenn> lots of other stuff 22:34 < fenn> vacuum forming 22:35 < fenn> ceramic, plaster, silicone, wax 22:35 < `tty`> ok, well i have some starting points... that's as far as the legos go 22:35 < fenn> if you bury it in sand you can do all kinds of metals 22:36 < fenn> you should hand-carve some of that blue styrofoam insulation board into your brick shape, and then either do a fiberglass or vacuum formed mold 22:36 < fenn> or silicone mold actually might work best, since you can't add draft to the brick 22:37 < fenn> example: coat the foam "positive" with silicone thinned in a pure non-aromatic hydrocarbon such as hexane, then smear silicone paste on that and let cure, then cast concrete around that 22:38 < `tty`> it would never turn into a business because it's too easy and I don't want to be in the lego making business... However, doing anything commercial from home, i.e. peer production, is how most businesses start.. and somehow they end up centralizing rather than decentralizing 22:38 < fenn> what's too easy? 22:38 -!- gene_ [n=chatzill@pool-71-164-238-185.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 22:38 < `tty`> making the stuff 22:38 < fenn> bullshit 22:38 < fenn> everything looks easy on paper 22:38 < gene_> I miss anything? 22:38 < fenn> gene: last line you saw? 22:39 < `tty`> bullshit 22:39 < fenn> `tty`: you understand the concept 'economy of scale' right? 22:40 < `tty`> i understand the concept of scaled economics, what about it? 22:40 < fenn> it's a powerful driving force toward centralization 22:40 < `tty`> i disagree 22:40 < `tty`> let's say: 22:40 < `tty`> you have 1 machine that puts out 40 parts a day 22:40 < fenn> how big is this machine? 22:41 < `tty`> big enough that you could only have one such machine inside a typical home 22:41 < `tty`> or garage 22:41 < fenn> will it fit in my milk-crate inventory system? 22:41 < fenn> can i get it around the curve in the stairs? 22:41 < `tty`> let's say you can have just one per garage/backyard 22:42 < fenn> most people don't have a garage or backyard 22:43 < fenn> i have seen some funny pictures of small milling machines packed in unusual places 22:43 < `tty`> my point is that whether the production capacity is centralized or distributed (assuming you work with others in a business that you all co-own) 22:44 < fenn> but factories are just big open buildings with thick concrete floors 22:44 < `tty`> then you can increase your production capacity by recruiting more co-owners who each invest in a production machine 22:44 < `tty`> and then the cost of maintenance and R&D (evolving the machine) 22:44 < fenn> hey am i talking to patrick anderson? 22:44 < gene_> this isn't productive 22:44 < `tty`> is split across all machines 22:45 < `tty`> so you have a big production base but fixed costs of maintenance/evolution of production facility 22:45 < fenn> the cost of maintenance is multiplied by the number of machines 22:45 < fenn> and multiplied again by the number of facilities that house the machines 22:45 < `tty`> as long as all operators use the same machine 22:45 < `tty`> yes but that's the same in a factory 22:46 < fenn> so like, i show up for work on tuesday only? 22:46 < fenn> i thought you were talking about people running machines in their garage 22:46 < `tty`> i'm saying that the argument that economies of scale drive centralization is not a strong one 22:46 < `tty`> yes, 40 people running the same machine in their garage 22:46 -!- gene_ changed the topic of #hplusroadmap to: how hard would it be to make la micrometer accurate or better linear motor? 22:47 < fenn> la micrometer? is that spanish? :) 22:47 < `tty`> 1 or 5 maintenance people... 22:47 < gene_> shit 22:47 < fenn> `tty`: you just lost your own argument... 22:48 < `tty`> the point: the cost for growing a decentralized production capacity that is based on standard parts, standard machines is not much more than the cost of growing a centralized production capacity 22:48 -!- gene_ changed the topic of #hplusroadmap to: how hard would it be to make a micrometer accurate or better linear motor? 22:49 < `tty`> i don't believe you have any argument against what I just stated, or do you? 22:49 < `tty`> decentralized production based on standard production tools: why would it be drmatically less efficient than centralized production? 22:49 < gene_> a linear motor might be simpler to make than a screw baser linear actuator 22:49 < fenn> i think this is very context dependent and different people have different goals 22:50 < fenn> you are very limited in what processes you can use by being constrained to a residential setting 22:50 < fenn> no 500-ton presses 22:51 < gene_> the idea behind using a linear motor in something like a micromill is that you could wind a whole bunch of imprecise coils and then correct for the impreciseness with software 22:51 < fenn> there are a lot of people with machine tools in their homes, but mostly they live in rural or suburban areas 22:52 < fenn> and then these arent production machines either 22:54 < gene_> you might also use air bearings in a set up as I have described to get more accuracy with out precision bearings 22:54 < fenn> air bearings are precision bearings 22:54 < gene_> air bearings can be laser cut 22:54 < fenn> from precision stock 22:54 < fenn> running on precision way surfaces 22:54 < fenn> perhaps you meant some other type of bearing 22:55 < `tty`> right... more limited options in decentralized setting... 22:55 < gene_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhOUuxPq3Gk 22:55 < `tty`> l8r 22:55 -!- gene [n=chatzill@pool-71-164-238-185.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:55 -!- `tty` [n=_tty_@c-67-171-16-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has left #hplusroadmap [] 22:56 < fenn> float glass is a precision surface... 22:57 * fenn has to go schlep a couple hundred more pounds of metal around for his "decentralized manufacturing" capability 22:57 < gene_> the thing is if you use air bearings and magnets, you can adjust, either the magnetic field or the airflow 22:57 < fenn> yeah "axtrusion" yadda yadda 22:58 < gene_> http://alioindustries.com/docspdfs/brochures/Brochure_Air_Bearing_Systems_2006-07-07.html 22:58 < gene_> check this out 22:58 < gene_> probably will never achieve this accuracy, but cool anyway 22:59 < fenn> you should talk to toastydeath 23:00 < fenn> he makes air bearings for a living and is a precision wingnut 23:00 < gene_> sounds like my kind of person 23:01 < gene_> so the problem becomes figuring out where the moving part is 23:01 < gene_> which might be done with an interferometer 23:08 < fenn> you can use an LVDT if you're more after repeatability than accuracy 23:11 < kanzure_> fenn: `tty` was marc. 23:11 < kanzure_> which might be worse than patrick at this point 23:14 < fenn> somebody reprap me a keyboard heater 23:21 < gene_> what is an LVDT? 23:22 < gene_> I hope I am not that bad 23:22 < gene_> a reprapped keyboard heater might pose a fire hazard 23:22 < gene_> given that reprap can only print plastic 23:23 < fenn> yes, hence the irony 23:23 < gene_> unless you use silicone 23:23 * fenn wants an automatic snark mark insertion mechanism 23:23 < gene_> how hot do you want your keyboard fenn? 23:24 < gene_> come to think of it, it might be possible to print a keyboard heater ready to go 23:25 < gene_> err almost ready to go 23:26 < gene_> given that the resistance of printed conductors is high(ie wire glue which is graphite mixed with glue) 23:26 < gene_> you're in luck fenn 23:26 < fenn> really the object i wish to heat is my fingers, but it would be situated over the keyboard 23:26 < gene_> how about heated hand pads 23:26 < fenn> hard to type in 23:27 < gene_> do you have a laptop? 23:27 < fenn> yes, but it doesnt keep me warm 23:27 < fenn> and i'm not using it 23:27 < gene_> hmmm... 23:27 < fenn> ok i'm really going to schlep some cold metal now 23:28 < gene_> what about something that sits on your keyboard to warm it up? 23:28 < fenn> like a keyboard heater? 23:29 < gene_> like an electric blanket for your keyboard that heats up the keys 23:29 < gene_> can you type without looking at the keyboard? 23:30 < gene_> if so then having something over the keyboard is clearly a better option 23:32 < gene_> do you find exposed wiring as A. Dangerous or B. Comforting? 23:50 < fenn> depends what voltage 23:50 < fenn> my unease goes up as the square of the voltage 23:52 < fenn> so, transforming dolly made short work of the metal 23:53 < fenn> yay simple machines!