--- Day changed Tue Jan 06 2009 01:14 -!- ferrouswheel [n=jp@121-73-144-159.cable.telstraclear.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:36 -!- emlyno [n=emlyn@ppp121-45-145-138.lns11.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 07:10 -!- samrose [n=samrose@c-24-11-214-181.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 07:21 < samrose> looks like there was an interesting discussion of compressed earth blocks yesterday 08:16 < kanzure_> yes 08:32 -!- Fair [n=Nofaris@75.42.67.32] has joined #hplusroadmap 08:38 -!- jm|earth [n=jm@p57B9F96A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 08:43 -!- jm|afk [n=jm@p57B9CEEB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:20 -!- nsh- [n=nsh@host86-155-28-235.range86-155.btcentralplus.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 09:29 -!- nsh [n=nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:35 -!- nsh- is now known as nsh 12:19 < gene_> http://www.physorg.com/news150395925.html 12:19 < gene_> check it out 12:20 < gene_> carbon nanohoops 12:27 < gene_> for making long carbon nanotubes 12:55 -!- samrose [n=samrose@c-24-11-214-181.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:31 -!- samrose [n=samrose@c-24-11-214-181.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 14:47 < kanzure_> gene_: are you in Austin yet? 14:47 < kanzure_> didn't think it would ever happen, but it looks like I might see Steve again 15:10 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 15:11 < gene_> No I am not back in Austin, why do you ask? 15:12 < gene_> hmmmm... I need to get the instructions from Sata on how to take algae samples 15:12 < kanzure_> Steve's an interesting guy I found up in Palo Alto 15:13 < kanzure_> http://makezine.tv/ 15:13 < gene_> last name plz?' 15:14 < gene_> next time you visit palo alto, visit the computer history museum 15:15 < gene_> I believe you'll find it worthwhile 15:29 -!- ferrouswheel [n=jp@121-73-144-159.cable.telstraclear.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 15:38 < gene_> are you still there? 15:49 < kanzure_> yes 15:55 -!- samrose [n=samrose@c-24-11-214-181.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:13 -!- gene [n=chatzill@pool-71-164-238-185.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 16:23 -!- gene_ [n=chatzill@pool-71-164-238-185.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:25 < gene> http://www.kurzweilai.net/meme/frame.html?main=/articles/art0275.html 16:26 < gene> seems he's a bit right and very wrong 16:27 < gene> seems he predicted DRM 16:52 < kanzure_> kurzweil predicted everything so that he won't become wrong :p 16:53 < kanzure_> the scatter shot approach: throw a lot of crap at the wall, and then say, "see! one sentence out of ten thousand came true!" 17:02 < gene> indeed 17:02 < gene> so as you were saying earlier 17:04 < gene> btw how far into "herbie rides again" are you 17:06 < gene> well you know it might be possible to measure Kurzweil's accuracy 17:16 -!- wrldpc [n=ben@c-98-217-197-216.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 17:18 < kanzure_> it's still downloading. 17:19 < gene> wow, the whole thing? 17:20 < gene> how big is it? 17:22 < kanzure_> 700 MB. I have a fast connection, but not everyone on demonoid does 17:23 < kanzure_> "Thomas Schwinge appointed GNU Hurd maintainer" hmm 17:48 -!- wrldpc [n=ben@c-98-217-197-216.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 18:07 -!- Fair [n=Nofaris@75.42.67.32] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:35 -!- jk4930 [n=jk@p54BCC32F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 18:37 < jk4930> kanzure_ are you around? 19:35 -!- gene is now known as genehacker 20:37 < kanzure_> jk4930: yes 20:37 < kanzure_> jk4930: you're on ycombinator? 20:40 < jk4930> yeah, but i don't post that often 20:41 < kanzure_> What's up? 20:41 < jk4930> just wanted to say that i agree with your statements on OCE 20:41 < jk4930> read your mail on exi-chat 20:41 < kanzure_> Which one are you? *poke* 20:41 < jk4930> jan klauck 20:41 < kanzure_> a lurker? 20:42 < jk4930> since several years :) 20:42 < jk4930> (since 1999 i think) 20:42 < jk4930> but i post at the OCE list. sometimes 20:42 < kanzure_> uh oh :) so you already know a lot about me. 20:42 < jk4930> i like your posts very much 20:42 < kanzure_> my posts on the open manufacturing list are even better ;-) 20:43 < jk4930> might be true, but i don't have the time to read too many lists 20:43 < kanzure_> so what brings you hear tonight? 20:43 < kanzure_> *here 20:43 < jk4930> just your exi-chat mail on oce :) 20:44 < kanzure_> hm, I don't think it's been forwarded .. maybe it's in the super secret architects discussion list? 20:44 < jk4930> it was the reply on stefano that oce is not about real engineering 20:45 < kanzure_> ah. 20:45 < jk4930> and you wrote similar things at the oce list, too 20:45 < kanzure_> I don't know why I don't just give up .. everyone else is happy to participate with me (like the open source hardware people) 20:46 < jk4930> was it you some time ago who said that most H+ers are just cheerleaders? well... :) 20:46 < kanzure_> but for some reason these people put a stake in a lot of these technologies 20:46 < fenn> what is OCE? 20:46 < kanzure_> "claiming the territory" almost 20:46 < kanzure_> fenn: http://cosmeng.org/ 20:46 < kanzure_> fenn: it makes itself look like an *actual* engineering transhumanist group 20:46 < kanzure_> but then proceeds to suck. 20:47 < fenn> pooh. why don't they do stuff? 20:47 < jk4930> but it tastes more like a WoW kiddie assoc. 20:47 < jk4930> fenn: because most can 20:47 < jk4930> can't 20:47 < kanzure_> then they should stfu 20:47 < fenn> too busy playing video games 20:47 < kanzure_> eugen leitl should become their overlord or something 20:47 < fenn> the only thing you were born knowing was how to shit and complain 20:47 < kanzure_> he did that for WTA back in the 90s, but I was too young to comprehend 20:48 < jk4930> don't know how much eugen is into this VR gaming 20:48 < jk4930> i think he's one of those few people who can do something 20:48 < jk4930> like keith 20:48 < kanzure_> eugen > keith :) 20:48 < kanzure_> http://eugen.leitl.org/ 20:48 < jk4930> are you sure? 20:49 < kanzure_> well, I know keith has more big names backing himself up, but keith is so pessimistic about everything these days 20:49 * fenn mumbles something about thumbnails 20:49 < jk4930> that can change 20:49 < jk4930> don't forget his near history 20:49 < jk4930> i talk with him offlist a bit 20:50 < kanzure_> keith makes himself sound like the only "real" engineer on the list 20:50 < kanzure_> and if that's true, why isn't he drawing schematics and doing shit 20:50 < kanzure_> ;-) 20:50 < jk4930> sometime the list tastes like he's the only one... 20:50 < fenn> ", a transhumanist association, a space advocacy group, a spiritual movement, a literary salon, a technology observatory, an idea factory, a virtual worlds development group, and a global community of persons willing to take an active role in building, in realizing a sunny future." 20:50 < jk4930> oh well he's calculating his SE + SPS stuff 20:50 < kanzure_> anyway, the om list has a weird accumulation of transhumanists on it 20:50 < kanzure_> it's kind of freaky actually 20:51 < fenn> not sure how you get "makes itself look like an actual engineering group" out of that 20:51 < kanzure_> we're just on about open source manufacturing 20:51 < kanzure_> but everyone has transhumanist backgrounds there 20:51 < kanzure_> Michel Bauwens did "Technocalypse" (the video) 20:51 < kanzure_> Paul Fernhout did the Kurzweil critiques, doesn't call himself a transhumanist but knows generally about it 20:51 < kanzure_> smari too .. 20:52 < kanzure_> fenn: "order of cosmic engineers, the only truly radical transhumanist organization!" 20:52 < genehacker> call me when you start doing engineering 20:52 < kanzure_> genehacker: schematics don't count? 20:52 < jk4930> fenn: they like to sound like engineers when they advertise themselves :) 20:52 < fenn> radical, like carrots and stuff? 20:52 < genehacker> schematics for? 20:52 < kanzure_> genehacker: equipment, unit processes, tools, dependency tree analyses 20:53 < kanzure_> just because they don't teach you about tools to make more tools in engineering classes doesn't mean it's not an engineering/design issue 20:53 < fenn> i wouldnt mind schematics for an eye tracker or something mundane like that 20:53 < kanzure_> the circuits? 20:53 < genehacker> ok where do I start? 20:53 < fenn> circuits and software 20:53 < kanzure_> start with what? 20:54 < genehacker> normal webcams are capable of eyetracking I believe 20:54 < kanzure_> see opencv 20:54 < genehacker> anything kanzure 20:54 < fenn> genehacker: make something cool and useful, document it thoroughly, release under a permissive license 20:54 < jk4930> genehacker: and then make a startup with it 20:54 < kanzure_> hah 20:54 < kanzure_> we kind of bounce around the idea of a startup every now and then sort of 20:54 < fenn> genehacker is all about profits 20:55 < kanzure_> but 20:55 < genehacker> hey why not? 20:55 < kanzure_> everyone wants to do a startup, but "show me the money" 20:55 < fenn> after reading paul graham i dont really want to do a startup 20:55 < jk4930> fenn: why not? 20:55 < kanzure_> which essays in particular? 20:55 < fenn> sounds like a lot of work 20:55 < fenn> i dont recall which essays, something about "why rich people are rich" 20:56 < kanzure_> what I'd be okay with is if there was some sort of open source-only venture capitalist 20:56 < kanzure_> where I don't have to explain what's so awesome about the permissive license aspects 20:56 < genehacker> ok so here's what I'm working on right now, an ECM setup for reprap, will be released under premise that you make it 20:56 < kanzure_> because that's so much overhead in explaining it to vc guys 20:56 < jk4930> then bootstrap it 20:57 < kanzure_> hm? 20:57 < jk4930> don't depend on VC 20:57 < kanzure_> with what? some of that funding would be used to go get the tools to build more tools [more rapidly] 20:57 < fenn> will be released under the premise that you make it? like, you wont actually test your chickenscratching and want to waste my time? 20:57 < kanzure_> well, yeah, I'd do that but I'm in school, and I'd need something to fall back on 20:57 < jk4930> then try some business angels. few might unterstand 20:58 < genehacker> well then I just release it with some good liscense or something 20:58 < kanzure_> "open source industrial automation/engineering design firm" 20:58 < kanzure_> that's a pretty good way to word it methinks 20:58 < kanzure_> or "cygnus but for manufacturing" 20:58 < fenn> this morning i was daydreaming about fully automated grocery stores 20:58 < jk4930> or look for an industrial sponsor 20:59 -!- wrldpc [n=ben@c-98-217-197-216.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 20:59 < kanzure_> jk4930: what? do you think an industrial sponsor would be interested in this? 20:59 < fenn> "robot robot revolution" 20:59 < kanzure_> they're so hush-hush with their IP .. 20:59 < kanzure_> I would be surprised 20:59 < kanzure_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cygnus_Solutions 20:59 < kanzure_> " 20:59 < kanzure_> Cygnus Solutions, originally Cygnus Support, was founded in 1989 by John Gilmore, Michael Tiemann and David Henkel-Wallace to provide commercial support for free software. Its tagline was: Making free software affordable. Cygnus is a recursive acronym for "Cygnus, Your GNU Support"." 20:59 < jk4930> there are some projects supported by intel btw 20:59 < kanzure_> was this before or after there was a significant code base 21:00 < jk4930> don't know 21:01 < jk4930> kanzure_: look at this http://www.openarchitecturenetwork.org/about 21:02 < kanzure_> jk4930: so, real quick now, one of the main projects in here is open source hardware packaging in a format like .deb 21:02 < kanzure_> for apt-get but for more than just software 21:02 < jk4930> for stuff like fab lab (or so)? 21:02 < kanzure_> that's the idea :) 21:03 < kanzure_> definitely with fablab integration (see fabuntu- but they're just domain squatting) 21:03 < kanzure_> *name squatting 21:03 < fenn> like fablab but more so 21:03 < kanzure_> woah wtf 21:03 < kanzure_> fabuntu.org "NOTICE: This domain name expired on 12/04/2008 and is pending renewal or deletion" 21:03 < kanzure_> huh 21:03 < jk4930> i am sure there _are_ investors who are interested in this 21:03 < fenn> d'eaux 21:04 < kanzure_> glad I grabbed the (craptastic, anyway) ISOs 21:04 < kanzure_> jk4930: which ones though? 21:04 < kanzure_> I mean, how does one go about finding investors who know about open source, and fablabs? 21:04 < kanzure_> is there a query box somewhere? :) 21:04 < jk4930> i have to look. fablab is not yet my domain 21:04 -!- Splicer [n=Splicer@h209n2c1o261.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 21:04 < fenn> does that mean i can squat fablab.org? 21:04 < jk4930> but i can bring it up here and then 21:04 < fenn> er.. fabuntu.org 21:05 < kanzure_> fenn: maybe. I say go for it. 21:05 < kanzure_> in fact, if you can find if you can buy it, I'll chip in the money 21:05 < kanzure_> fablab.org: "Welcome to the laboratory of cell biology and immunology" 21:05 < fenn> hmmm [BBINFreecycle~Y] WANTED:cooking thermometer, large pots/kettles, scale, beakers 21:05 < kanzure_> we have support from Erik (on om) to host any large archive/mirror network (he hosts reprap.org and winehq) 21:05 < kanzure_> hah, somebody from diybio? 21:06 < kanzure_> jk4930: any hints would be awesome. Should I go to ycombinator? 21:06 < fenn> nah, fabric dyeing 21:06 < kanzure_> "my team's ready, but I don't know about a command crew" or however the Star Wars quote goes. 21:06 < kanzure_> (other way around) 21:06 < genehacker> so here's a business plan, free medicine, except the medicine expresses ads for various upgrades you can buy 21:06 < fenn> kanzure_: if you're going on a begging for money roll, check out submeta.org 21:06 < jk4930> ycombinator just gives around USD 5,000 21:06 < kanzure_> genehacker: that's a stupid idea. but free medicine is a good idea. 21:06 < kanzure_> haha 21:06 < kanzure_> I know the submeta guy :) 21:06 < genehacker> yeah that's why it's a joke 21:06 < kanzure_> he contacted me a while back 21:07 < kanzure_> genehacker: Andrew Hessel is doing free cancer treatments using open source biotech, btw 21:07 < jk4930> kanzure_: when i find investors i'll tell you 21:08 < kanzure_> ohhh 21:08 < kanzure_> Garret Lisi told me about submeta 21:08 < fenn> huh. 21:08 < kanzure_> Bruce Wonnacott 21:10 < Splicer> an unrelated qustion: what was the name of that graphical gene/biobrick editor someone was building? 21:10 < kanzure_> tinkercell 21:10 < Splicer> (the last one) 21:11 < Splicer> yeah.. thank you 21:11 < Splicer> (lost some bookmarks) 21:13 < kanzure_> oh crap, are you ok? 21:14 < kanzure_> hm, submeta is showing up at bilconference (Todd's conference) 21:16 < kanzure_> fenn: did I mention that Steve and Anna are driving in to Austin tonight? 21:17 < kanzure_> they randomly called me while I was at the dentist's office today, so this is pretty sudden 21:17 < genehacker> ha 21:17 < kanzure_> what to do with a bunch of aspies at 2 in the morning 21:17 < Splicer> kanz: me? I had the most important stuff on a usb stick... forgot about the bookmarks 21:17 < kanzure_> jk4930: I seem to recall reading on ycombinator about you and asperger's 21:18 < kanzure_> or some such 21:18 < kanzure_> aspergian getaway island? /me double checks 21:18 < genehacker> well the answer is obvious: party 21:18 < kanzure_> "We should note that IT itself is a kind of an "Aspergism-Amplifier": When one has an aspie-bias before, IT might make it stronger. And when one switches from math or IT to project management and similar social activities, aspergism steps a bit back (even if the untold rules, rituals, and mean social games can be a real pain). I experienced that myself several times and know of other people who told me that, too." 21:19 < jk4930> kanzure_: well, yes :) 21:19 < kanzure_> I was once building an Asperger's Amplifier 21:19 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Sustained_attention 21:20 < kanzure_> but that's probably the opposite direction that most people would like to go 21:20 < Splicer> I don't know if you're familiar with the PUA community? 21:20 < jk4930> sure :) 21:20 < kanzure_> PUA? 21:20 < kanzure_> pick-up and seduction? 21:20 < Splicer> Many of the really good ones there have social aquardnesses... 21:20 < Splicer> kanz: yeah 21:20 < Splicer> tyler durden comes to mind 21:20 < genehacker> with that asperger amplifier we might be able to make everyone an aspie 21:21 < jk4930> genehacker: hell!!1!! 21:21 < kanzure_> I'm mostly interested in just myself 21:21 < kanzure_> but if you want to make a giant death ray or something 21:21 < kanzure_> I might consider stopping you (maybe) 21:21 < fenn> pick-up and seduction community? 21:21 < Splicer> social hacking is useful 21:21 < kanzure_> pick-up artists, I'm guessing it's how there's so much porn out there .. 21:22 < fenn> is this like, DIY hypnosis? 21:22 < fenn> for nefarious ends 21:22 < kanzure_> no, it's more like "hey, You Want a Drink" *jedi hand-waving* 21:22 < genehacker> umm I don't have a giant death ray, it's just a laser 21:22 < Splicer> it's everything now... it was hypnosis/NLP maybe 2 generations ago 21:22 < fenn> same thing 21:23 < kanzure_> nlp is still clogging the intertubes 21:23 < Splicer> nlp is not good but it's something 21:23 < genehacker> well you know kanzure, bombarding someone's retina with electrons they will forget the last 3-4 seconds of what just happened 21:24 < genehacker> it's a bit like hypnosis 21:24 < fenn> gene at least get the physics right 21:24 < fenn> (photons, not electrons) 21:24 < genehacker> no really electrons 21:24 < fenn> gwah 21:24 < Splicer> i digress... my point was that many of the successful ones have traits that lean towads aspergers a bit... like tyler durden 21:24 < genehacker> like beta particles 21:24 < fenn> Splicer: tyler durden, or "the guy" 21:24 < kanzure_> Splicer: social defiance disorder can be related. 21:24 < kanzure_> erm, not social defiance, excuse me, it's .. uhh .. 21:25 < Splicer> sounds like more of the same to me 21:25 < genehacker> terrorism? 21:25 < kanzure_> the one where you're purposely deceptive all the time and it's how business folk assrape everyone else 21:26 < Splicer> fenn: I don't remember his name... I think his thing was "Real social dynamics" 21:26 < Splicer> wall street 21:26 < jk4930> kanzure_: sociopathy? 21:26 < kanzure_> ah 21:26 < kanzure_> that's pretty close to the mark 21:27 < Splicer> hey.. let's have a revolution and see what comes out 21:28 < genehacker> you guys are starting to sound pretty communist to me 21:28 * fenn puts on the techno and starts dancing to "robot robot revolution" 21:28 < genehacker> let's have a technocratic revolution 21:29 < genehacker> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocracy_(bureaucratic) 21:29 < fenn> let's STOP ALL SPACE EXPLORATION NOW! 21:29 < jk4930> genehacker: bad idea. 21:29 < Splicer> sure... I'm in 21:29 < genehacker> why fenn? 21:29 < kanzure_> fenn: link? 21:29 < genehacker> I want off this damn ball of rock! 21:29 < kanzure_> genehacker: just because we don't slave to money doesn't make us communist 21:30 < fenn> genehacker: i think this page summarizes the relevant arguments succinctly: http://wolfbat359.com/space.htm 21:30 < jk4930> i like money :) 21:30 < kanzure_> I'd rather have nothing to do with it 21:30 < jk4930> (was a quote from Idiocracy) 21:30 * kanzure_ points out that a friend of his got the electric car from Idiocracy :-) 21:31 < jk4930> kanzure_: but for real, what's so bad about it? it's very useful. 21:31 < jk4930> oh, does it drive with electrolytes? 21:31 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has joined #hplusroadmap 21:31 < kanzure_> not sure :) I haven't seen it yet 21:31 < kanzure_> so what's so bad about money .. uh, it's a useless layer on top of physics 21:31 < kanzure_> I know I can do things, I don't need money to tell me if I can/can't 21:32 < fenn> kanzure_: sorry no link.. just the name of my daydream corporate entity behind the robot grocery stores 21:32 < jk4930> no, it's not. it's an effective and efficient way of resource allocation in a complex, distributed system 21:32 < fenn> RRR! 21:32 < kanzure_> resource allocation 21:32 < kanzure_> hahah 21:32 < kanzure_> yay for scarcity assumptions 21:32 * kanzure_ looks up at the sky 21:32 < jk4930> we don't have post scarcity yet... 21:33 < genehacker> think of it this way: walmarts, MacDonalds, and stores like that are cell types in some large organism 21:33 < fenn> ironically, money is not very good at resource allocation anymore, due to large bureaucracies spending other peoples' money 21:33 < kanzure_> "Welcome, you have now become unemployed. We regret to inform you that there 21:33 < kanzure_> aren't many openings for jobs, and the alternative to working to live hasn't 21:33 < kanzure_> been able to fully scale and deploy at this time. Good luck." 21:33 < fenn> so things get "bought" that nobody really wanted in the first place 21:34 < genehacker> heh 21:34 < genehacker> especially considering that HUGE bailout that they did 21:34 < jk4930> the problems of consumerism or bailouts is not the problem of the existence of money 21:35 < kanzure_> money doesn't even make sense to me. resource allocation is a nonsense topic, go look at memory allocation algorithms 21:35 < kanzure_> there's no money running *my* kernel 21:35 < genehacker> I believe that the bailout is over 900 giant robots right now 21:35 < jk4930> different thing 21:35 < kanzure_> oh? 21:35 < fenn> yes, btw here is a nice graphic illustrating the HUGENESS of it: http://voltagecreative.com/blog/2008/11/scary-bailout-money-info-graphic/ 21:35 < genehacker> so how do you power your computer? 21:35 * fenn kicks slow internet 21:35 < kanzure_> genehacker: fucking energy 21:35 < kanzure_> not money. 21:35 < fenn> damn people keep downloading stuff! 21:35 < genehacker> how do you get it? 21:36 < kanzure_> the sun 21:36 < genehacker> how do you convert it? 21:36 < kanzure_> bioreactor 21:36 < genehacker> what happens when it get's dark? 21:36 < kanzure_> batteries 21:36 < genehacker> how do you get the batteries? 21:36 < kanzure_> I make them 21:37 < genehacker> how do you make them? 21:37 < kanzure_> materials 21:37 < kanzure_> (and some tools) 21:37 < fenn> zinc air fuel cell is fairly straightforward to make from dirt 21:37 < genehacker> how do you get the land necessary for a suitably sized solarcell/bioreactor array 21:37 < kanzure_> "how do you make the tools?" <-- bingo, that's what fenn and I are on about 21:37 < genehacker> and I do too 21:37 < kanzure_> how do I get it? 21:37 < kanzure_> look, 21:38 < fenn> but flywheels or gravity are probably better for stationary applications 21:38 < kanzure_> I explained this to Paul, let me get a link 21:38 < kanzure_> for some reason people were stupid when breeding 21:38 < genehacker> flywheels aren't that great 21:38 < kanzure_> "oh, let's just make a lot of little children" 21:38 < kanzure_> "without making sure they have adequate resources" 21:38 < kanzure_> breeding without a material acquistiion infrastructure is a really stupid idea 21:38 < kanzure_> because then you have an exponential growth process over a finite material resource population 21:38 < kanzure_> *resource cache 21:38 < jk4930> (here we have a wellfare system that cares about those breeders.) 21:38 < fenn> genehacker: lots of other ways to store energy, it's not a bottleneck 21:38 < genehacker> flywheels are great if you have the ability to scale up a lot 21:39 < kanzure_> hold on a for a link 21:39 < kanzure_> *sec 21:39 < kanzure_> http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/msg/934ca56d187e12e8 21:39 < genehacker> cut the philosophy, let's get to making the tools to make the tools 21:39 < kanzure_> no shit 21:40 < fenn> eh but which tools to make first? 21:40 < kanzure_> bingo .. 21:40 * kanzure_ needs another word for bingo 21:40 * fenn points at mile-long project list 21:40 < fenn> shaZAM! 21:40 < genehacker> what I don't already have in my garage 21:40 < jk4930> whew, that's a long text... 21:40 < kanzure_> how about "That's what we've been saying all the damn time" 21:40 < kanzure_> jk4930: oh, well, let me get the relevant section 21:41 < kanzure_> jk4930: start at "in reality there's not really" 21:42 < jk4930> ok. i just read your statements on risks. you should own the book Systemantics to have a better orientation on that... :) 21:43 < kanzure_> haha 21:43 < kanzure_> I like the wikipedia article on systemantics 21:43 < kanzure_> [system[antics]] or semantics etc.. 21:43 < jk4930> i have the book. it's great 21:43 < fenn> that was probably the wrong email to cite 21:43 < kanzure_> fenn: oh? 21:43 < jk4930> after studying system science that was the book over the untold dark secrets 21:43 < kanzure_> jk4930: should I pick it up? I felt I got the jist of it from the wikipedia article a while back. I also liked Donella Meadows "Dancing with systems" 21:44 < kanzure_> and then there's Stu Kauffman and a few other related books 21:44 < kanzure_> "Dancing with systems" and "12 leverage points" being the main ones IIRC 21:44 < fenn> btw fabuntu.org was not available 21:44 < kanzure_> fenn: which email would have been better? 21:44 < kanzure_> for that particular argument 21:45 < jk4930> kanzure_: where in your posting is the stuff on economics/money? 21:46 < kanzure_> well I was ranting about the subsection about being born into the system 21:46 < kanzure_> but right, it's not specifically re: money. 21:46 < kanzure_> personally once you have your own space habitat, feel free to bootstrap it and boot it up with any sort of crazy money pyramid scheme you want 21:46 < kanzure_> just let the rest of us fork and get the hell away 21:46 < kanzure_> :p 21:46 < jk4930> and reg. systemantics, it's a nice book with good examples. it elaborates on complexity and why so many designed systems fail 21:47 < kanzure_> any scans? 21:47 < fenn> where's that damned automated book scanner I was promised? 21:47 < jk4930> never found scans. bought the book then :) 21:48 < kanzure_> even google ended up scanning in pages by hand :( 21:48 < kanzure_> you can sometimes see fingers in the pages 21:48 < fenn> wtf 21:49 < fenn> real fingers? not robot fingers/ 21:49 < kanzure_> yes :( 21:49 < fenn> why did they do that? 21:49 < kanzure_> human error 21:49 < kanzure_> you inevitably slip up after so many pages 21:49 < fenn> i dont understand 21:50 < fenn> i mean why did they go with humans turning the pges 21:50 < fenn> instead of using an automated book scanning machine 21:50 < kanzure_> had to do something with their billions? :( 21:50 < fenn> s/an/an army of/ 21:50 < kanzure_> http://blog.hyperjeff.net/?p=72 21:50 < kanzure_> http://www.seroundtable.com/archives/004030.html 21:51 < kanzure_> ("quick! to the blogosphere!") 21:51 < genehacker> ok so what do we do to decide which tools to make 21:51 < kanzure_> dependency trees 21:51 < genehacker> show me them 21:51 < kanzure_> we make them 21:52 < genehacker> how? 21:52 < kanzure_> take a hint from debian dependency trees 21:52 < kanzure_> *by taking a hint 21:52 < kanzure_> but we're also including instructions/recipes for how to make the package 21:53 < fenn> build dependency tree based on input/output requirements 21:53 < fenn> standard computer science stuff 21:53 < jk4930> and then we end up with a dependency hell? 21:53 < kanzure_> at some bottom line the parts must be supplied from an external source, it's true, but Gingery for instance went extremist and did it via recycling, but only because his balls were the size of Jupiter. 21:53 < kanzure_> jk4930: haha :) 21:54 < genehacker> so what if it is hell? I don't care as long as it works 21:54 < kanzure_> uh 21:54 < kanzure_> that's not what he means 21:54 < genehacker> oh shoot 21:54 < genehacker> I get it 21:54 < kanzure_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dependency_hell 21:54 < fenn> jk4930: we already have a dependency hell, the solution is to use software tools to actively manage it and make concise accurate decisions about what to do first 21:54 < kanzure_> " 21:54 < kanzure_> The issue of dependency hell may be regarded as an anti-pattern, where the fault lies less with the suppliers of the products than with the framework into which they have to fit." 21:55 < kanzure_> " 21:55 < kanzure_> In some Linux distributions, the system needs to install new packages to configure Internet access, but it also needs Internet access to download the packages. This is circular dependency hell (a form of a catch 22)." 21:55 < fenn> gingery stuff still has a lot of external dependencies 21:55 < kanzure_> yes :( 21:55 < kanzure_> Paul thought my finding gingery unfortunate was weird 21:55 < genehacker> I think this dependency tree thing will show how dependent machines are on humans 21:55 < fenn> anything realistic will, for the next decade or so at least 21:55 < kanzure_> but as awesome as gingery was it's still not optimal 21:56 < kanzure_> genehacker: humans must still have instructions 21:56 < fenn> far from optimal, most of it is amateur first attempts 21:56 < kanzure_> it's not like this is magical 21:56 < genehacker> well how did the industrial revolution begin, how were the first lathes made 21:56 < fenn> the difference is that gingery made a complete set 21:56 < kanzure_> the industrial revolution was a scam 21:56 < kanzure_> it was just "precise repetitive manufacturing of artifacts" 21:56 < fenn> whereas most earlier authors only had random scattered magazine articles 21:56 < genehacker> so? 21:56 < kanzure_> not truly interoperable parts 21:57 < fenn> i think you're taking the whole interchangeable parts thing out of context 21:57 < fenn> it used to be that every bolt had its own custom hand-crafted nut 21:57 < kanzure_> ok ok, we'll rant about that later 21:57 < fenn> and each blacksmith made their own specific wrenches for their bolts etc 21:57 < genehacker> yeah I know fenn 21:57 < genehacker> but how were the bolts made? 21:57 < jk4930> kanzure_: c'mon, industrial revolution was a scam? don't be so mean :) 21:57 < fenn> well, in middle ages by twisting over a forge 21:58 < fenn> more like lag screws than bolts really 21:58 < kanzure_> jk4930: just some left-over rant waiting to come out of me :) 21:58 < jk4930> industrial revolution was not only about production but also about distribution and social institutions 21:58 < kanzure_> jk4930: I'm angry I don't have truly interoperable parts, not just "interchangeable parts" 21:58 < genehacker> so how were machines that make bolts and screws made 21:59 < fenn> they didnt have machines that made bolts 21:59 < kanzure_> we don't need to use ancient machines though 21:59 < fenn> or are you asking how was the first leadscrew made? 21:59 < genehacker> how were the first ones made 21:59 < kanzure_> it's not like this must sacrifice technical advancement for historical accuracy 21:59 < fenn> google up henry maudslay 21:59 < genehacker> yeah I know 21:59 < fenn> if you know then why are you asking? :) 21:59 * kanzure_ picked up a book today called "A Handbook of Pictorials of Technical Devices" 22:00 < genehacker> cool 22:00 < genehacker> for free? 22:00 < jk4930> kanzure_: it seems you ignore the social dimensions of technological development and diffusion processes. wait, i've something for you 22:00 < genehacker> or did you pay for it? 22:00 < kanzure_> no. 22:00 < kanzure_> paid 22:00 < kanzure_> jk4930: I might have ignored it in my study of the industrial revolution, that's true 22:00 < genehacker> you should download "1800 mechanical movements" 22:00 < kanzure_> the carnegie library? 22:00 < kanzure_> oh, it's a book 22:00 < fenn> 1800 is pretty good from what i've browsed so far 22:00 < genehacker> I don't see the point in dependency trees 22:01 * fenn needs a djvu to pdf converter that doesnt suck 22:01 < jk4930> kanzure_: http://www.efficientfrontier.com/ef/404/CH1.HTM 22:01 < genehacker> I gave up and just downloaded DJVU 22:01 < fenn> genehacker: please tell me what to make first then 22:02 -!- wrldpc [n=ben@c-98-217-197-216.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 22:02 < kanzure_> jk4930: I'll look into that. 22:02 < genehacker> first we need to demonstrate an automatic assembling system 22:02 < fenn> that's first? 22:03 < fenn> what are you going to assemble together? 22:03 < genehacker> capable of assembling pretty much anything, with minimal assistance of jigs or at least precision jigs 22:03 < fenn> i can assemble things in my sleep, tell my why i need a machine to do this 22:03 < genehacker> why not? 22:03 < fenn> because there are other things i can't do with my bare hands 22:04 < genehacker> I thought the end result of this was a self replicating machine 22:04 < fenn> no, the end result is the abolition of work 22:04 < fenn> i dont really care if it's self replicating or not 22:05 < kanzure_> the same infrastructure is needed though anyway 22:05 < genehacker> well then we need a precision machine shop 22:05 < fenn> what do you base these assertions on? 22:06 < fenn> precision machine shops have been around for hundreds of years 22:06 < fenn> and people still work.. 22:06 * fenn needs to find a different word than "work' 22:06 < genehacker> define work? 22:07 < genehacker> as in a precision machine shop that can make machine shops 22:07 < fenn> labor, doing pretty much anything you don't want to do, for economic purposes 22:08 < fenn> ok now you're getting somewhere 22:08 < fenn> so, why can't existing machine shops make more machine shops? 22:08 < genehacker> of or relating to an economy, the system of production and management of material wealth; 22:08 < genehacker> machine shops can't process ore 22:09 < kanzure_> ore mining and processing operations are built by machine shops .. 22:09 < genehacker> some machine shops can for the most part 22:09 < fenn> kanzure_: actually a lot of it is made in steel mills.. 22:09 < kanzure_> blah. 22:10 < genehacker> well some parts are made in foundary's 22:10 < fenn> but the parts to make a steel mill are generally made by machine shops, so there's that 22:10 < genehacker> like big parts 22:10 < genehacker> like large single piece metal parts 22:11 < fenn> ok so where do i start? the mining equipment? the foundry? 22:12 < genehacker> the machine for making the mining equipment 22:12 < fenn> weaksauce: " Google has released few details of its scanning project (the search company has nondisclosure agreements with its library partners)" 22:12 < kanzure_> "it's made of people!" 22:13 < fenn> nooooo 22:13 < kanzure_> srsly, respect-- 22:14 < genehacker> http://www.islandone.org/MMSG/aasm/AASM5A.html 22:14 < kanzure_> you have a GDP larger than 50% of the nations of the world, and you can't even build a damn auto book scanner 22:14 < genehacker> self replicating machine shop 22:15 < fenn> internet archive has humans in the scanning process too 22:15 < fenn> except they hold the pages down with a pedal operated piece of glass 22:16 < fenn> they have 10 whole "machines".. hmm 22:16 * fenn wonders where that $5M went 22:16 < fenn> auto book scanner = $15k 22:16 < genehacker> this is off topic 22:16 < fenn> what is off topic? 22:16 -!- genehacker changed the topic of #hplusroadmap to: eliminating work 22:17 < fenn> auto book scanners reduce the amount of work going into making information accessible 22:17 < kanzure_> genehacker: your link just talks about a specific company 22:17 < genehacker> yes it does 22:17 < kanzure_> it's like saying "well, you have to believe me that this place Knows How To Do It" 22:18 < kanzure_> so that's not a good answer to fenn's question, imo 22:18 < genehacker> ok 22:18 < kanzure_> unless he thinks otherwise .. 22:18 < genehacker> acknowledged 22:19 * fenn reads gene's link 22:20 < genehacker> so how can we make a part fabricator that uses minimal exogenous components 22:22 < fenn> define exogenous 22:23 < genehacker> not makeable by the part fabricator 22:24 < fenn> "A group of interacting extended self-replicating systems may form a still larger self-reproducing system with yet more complex capabilities. " 22:24 < fenn> this is basically a summary of 1) life and 2) civilization 22:24 < genehacker> yes indeed 22:24 < genehacker> now moving on 22:25 < fenn> so, exogenous.. hmm 22:25 < fenn> we're minimizing the number of different types of components or the raw amount? 22:25 < fenn> or some kind of halfway point 22:26 < fenn> because a mechanical computer seems like an easy way to reduce the number of different types 22:26 < genehacker> it does 22:26 < fenn> but i dont think it's realistic 22:26 < genehacker> but that comes at an expense of making it really huge 22:26 < genehacker> you didn't say it had to be automated fenn 22:27 < fenn> or using some new really small feature size machining technology 22:27 < fenn> it has to be automated because otherwise you require humans in the loop = work 22:27 < genehacker> ok 22:27 < fenn> we already have non-automated self replicating systems, it's called civilization, roughly 22:27 < genehacker> then let's figure out how to assemble pretty much anything with one or two machines 22:28 < genehacker> from basic parts 22:28 < fenn> if i share my idea you will just poop all over it 22:28 < genehacker> ie, nuts, bolts, metal plates, gear boxes 22:29 < fenn> you are stuck in lego-land 22:29 -!- willPow3r [n=will@cpe-66-75-6-181.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:29 < fenn> raw materials dont come in the form of a gear box 22:29 < genehacker> indeed they don't 22:29 -!- willPow3r [n=will@cpe-66-75-6-181.san.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 22:30 < genehacker> we need a human replacer 22:30 < fenn> what functions does a human perform? 22:30 * fenn wonders how long of a book that would be 22:30 < genehacker> a bunch of humans can assemble pretty much anything from a set of parts 22:31 < fenn> really big things? really small things? electronic components? 22:32 < genehacker> yes really big things, yes really small things, but they'd have to make intermediate parts to make the parts 22:32 < fenn> but that's cheating 22:33 < fenn> you can just say "..and then we make some intermediate parts, and here's the fully functioning nano replicator" 22:33 < genehacker> nanoreplicators are easy, but useless 22:33 < fenn> i'll ignore that comment 22:33 < fenn> so, what is a human capable of? 22:35 < genehacker> part positioning, rudimentary part checking, part identification 22:36 < fenn> hint: the end result should include quantitative information like this: http://fennetic.net/pub/irc/human_strength_vs_position.png 22:36 < genehacker> interesting 22:37 < fenn> i think you more or less have to define a kinematic model and a function for muscle position vs force 22:37 < fenn> and then there are control and feedback parameters like reaction time or bandwidth etc 22:37 < genehacker> you know when they design a space station they make sure it is buildable by humans 22:38 < fenn> "they" are a bunch of idiots 22:38 < genehacker> humans are cheap 22:38 < fenn> not in space they arent 22:38 < genehacker> yeah 22:38 < fenn> when termites build a termite mound, they make sure it's buildable by termites 22:39 < fenn> doesn't make a termite mound the best thing to build 22:40 < genehacker> no really, when they design space station components they check to make sure that people don't have to get into near impossible positions to put stuff together 22:40 < fenn> yah i know, the big water tank 22:40 < genehacker> no they do it with computers 22:40 < fenn> they do the water tank too 22:41 < fenn> did you know NASA built a whole extra space shuttle just for testing? 22:41 < genehacker> no 22:41 < fenn> there were two actually 22:42 < fenn> they scraped one of them together into a functional shuttle, discovery i think? 22:43 < fenn> so, computers have come along a bit since the 70's but i still think there's a big place for real world testing 22:44 < genehacker> oops I am sorry Fenn, it was to make sure that the humans didn't bump into the equipment 22:44 < fenn> er... why? 22:44 < fenn> i mean, you wouldnt have any appreciable velocity 22:45 < fenn> or is this for protein crystallization experiments where it has to be absolutely still 22:45 < genehacker> because it really get's on your nerves bumping into a pipe everytime you walk through corrider 31 22:45 -!- wrldpc [n=ben@173.48.207.37] has joined #hplusroadmap 22:45 < kanzure_> walk? 22:46 < genehacker> oh it was servicing 22:46 < fenn> this is traffic flow stuff, more like fluid dynamics than kinematic constraints 22:46 < genehacker> yeah it was what I described 22:46 * fenn has lost interest 22:47 < genehacker> Kanzure it's on page 53-54 of graphics for engineers 22:47 < genehacker> ok moving on 22:47 < genehacker> so how do we make a machine capable of assembling itself from spare parts? 22:48 < fenn> that's been done, see numerous lego examples 22:48 < fenn> its the classic von neuman "sea of parts" scenario 22:48 < fenn> basically it's semantics when you get down to it 22:49 < genehacker> yeah but they can't replicate from "individual lego parts" 22:49 < fenn> the apple resting on the ground is the final state, so look! it self assembled! 22:49 < genehacker> I fail to see your analogy 22:49 < fenn> well, what's a lego, in general? 22:51 < genehacker> I'm not exactly sure 22:53 < genehacker> an apple could be considered capable of replication though 22:55 < kanzure_> surely you know what a lego is 22:55 < genehacker> shaped forms of plastic? 22:55 < fenn> i mean "apple falls from tree" as an oversimplified way of seeing self-assembly 22:56 < fenn> like these "self assembling" robots that are basically just two legos snapping together 22:56 < genehacker> if a machine can make itself from parts, it might be able to make the machines to make the parts 22:58 < fenn> lego == interchangeable/compatible part, designed for disassembly 22:58 < genehacker> ok 22:59 < genehacker> it is slightly interoperable too 22:59 < fenn> interoperable with what? 22:59 < genehacker> please define interoperable 23:00 < fenn> by "compatible" i mean you can swap vastly different parts for the same general function, like 3 flat plates for one brick 23:00 < genehacker> ok 23:00 < fenn> that's not the best definition but whatever 23:00 < fenn> there's a "system" 23:00 < fenn> the system supports the maximum amount of diversity with the minimum set of parts 23:01 < genehacker> lego parts aren't the best thing to use for making a replicator, they aren't adjustable 23:01 < fenn> anyone used any good FOSS OCR software? 23:02 < kanzure_> tesseract. 23:03 < fenn> and it actually works? like, feed it hi-res scans and it turns into text 23:03 < kanzure_> I fed it paper scans and it puked. but others swear by it. 23:03 < kanzure_> paper scans from old journals. 23:03 < kanzure_> bad fonts, bad paper, generally bad quality 23:03 < fenn> hmm 23:04 < genehacker> you might ask Kurzweil, I believe he is an expert in that field 23:04 < fenn> no i'm just being lazy 23:04 < fenn> dont want to try out 50 different packages that all suck just to find out that there's nothing good out there 23:06 < fenn> if you have it set up and ready to go, would you mind try running tesseract on: http://fennetic.net/pub/irc/kscan_0005.png 23:06 < fenn> (3.4MB) 23:07 < kanzure_> I don't. 23:08 < fenn> ok i will bother with it some other time 23:09 -!- genehacker changed the topic of #hplusroadmap to: making a universal part assembling machine 23:09 < genehacker> interesting what is the scan from? 23:10 < fenn> structure in nature is a strategy for design, and why is it interesting? 23:10 < fenn> most boring page of the book 23:11 < kanzure_> oh btw I get to go back to school :) 23:11 < genehacker> nice 23:11 < genehacker> so can we get back to designing that filter? 23:12 < genehacker> well the page is boring, the book seems otherwise 23:12 -!- UtopiahGHML [n=libre@rps3868.ovh.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:12 < kanzure_> yes, but not tonight. 23:13 < genehacker> ok 23:13 < genehacker> point made 23:13 < kanzure_> ? 23:13 < kanzure_> fenn where were you going with all that and gene. 23:14 < jk4930> fellows, i've to leave now. wish you a good night. 23:14 < fenn> i was trying to get him to see the necessity of something like SKDB 23:15 -!- UtopiahGHML [n=libre@rps3868.ovh.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 23:15 -!- jk4930 [n=jk@p54BCC32F.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #hplusroadmap ["Konversation terminated!"] 23:15 < genehacker> I still don't see it's necessity, sure it would help and all, but we could live without it 23:16 < fenn> i'm not so sure 23:16 < fenn> seems humanity has passed the point where we could lose any particular technology and not go extinct 23:17 < genehacker> I don't see your point 23:17 < fenn> er.. so we need to solidify our foundations, by examining the cracks first of all 23:17 < fenn> secondly by building new foundations 23:18 < fenn> for example, why am i stuck on earth? 23:19 < genehacker> gravity 23:19 < fenn> at least in a space habitat there is an easily traceable global dependency tree 23:19 < fenn> ecosystems and weather are textbook examples of complexity 23:20 < genehacker> ??? 23:20 < fenn> nevermind i'm not talking clearly 23:20 < fenn> there's like 50 steps between each line and I dont feel like holding your hand through all of that 23:23 < fenn> oh come on.. tesseract can't read .png files? 23:23 < kanzure_> convert magic? 23:23 < fenn> yeah but it's just a stupid pain in the ass that shouldnt be there 23:23 < kanzure_> bug patch to the rescue. seriously, "if file extension is .png, then call convert" -> let the bastards make a more elegant fix 23:24 < kanzure_> since you're going to be calling convert anyway, might as well just call it a bugfix 23:24 * fenn knew this was going to suck 23:28 * fenn grumbles.. it has to be named .tif not .tiff 23:29 < genehacker> you know Kanzure I got an idea for solving our spiral generator problem 23:30 < genehacker> i have a B/W image of the outline of the membraneless filter 23:31 < kanzure_> my generator almost works. 23:32 < genehacker> we could write some code to make triangles from the black pixels 23:57 < kanzure_> I wish there was an option on my voice mail to "send by email" instead of " saving for 14 days until it will be deleted" .. 23:57 < kanzure_> what good is an archive that prunes on 14 day cycles ..