--- Day changed Sat Jan 10 2009
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02:08 < bkero> So metal
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08:41 < samrose> kanzure you may be interested in public-lod@w3.org lots of discussions there about some ideas similar to what you are doing with YAML and dependency ideas
08:44 < kanzure_> okay. I'm on the public-sem-web@w3.org list which is about bio + RDF-like stuff
08:44 < kanzure_> I'll check out -lod
08:45 < kanzure_> Analytical Biochemistry, Volume 137, Issue 1, 15 February 1984, Pages
08:45 < kanzure_> 156-160, An economic “power supply” using a diode for agarose and
08:45 < kanzure_> polyacrylamide gel electrophoresis, Y. Kadokami, K. Takao and K.
08:45 < kanzure_> Saigo
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09:20 < samrose> Kanzure: is "Linking Open Data" there are some ideas there that are related to creating dependencies among open data, kind of like what you are thinking about doing with YAML/Python
09:24 < samrose> Kanzure this is one related example http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-lod/2009Jan/0030.html
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12:17 < kanzure_> I don't know what we'd do without Eric Hunting. :-)
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13:04 < kanzure_> http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=961  phd desks.
13:08 < gene> hahahaha
13:09 < gene> you started watching herbie yet?
13:12 < kanzure_> yes, but I stopped the other night because mplayer hiccuped and then dad died
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13:19 < gene> ok
13:45 < kanzure_> http://heybryan.org/folders.html <-- me keeping myself busy. thinking about organizing files.
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14:41 < kanzure_> http://www.congrex.nl/09c17/ The IJCAI-09 Workshop on Artificial Intelligence in Space
14:42 < UtopiahGHML> (2001 Space Odyssey)
14:55 < kanzure_> http://bitcoin.org/ yet another p2p currency piece of crap
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16:28 < kanzure_> http://www.howtoorganizestuff.com/  .. nice juxtaposition with howstuffworks.
16:31 < kanzure_> fenn: it occurs to me that the debtools "use-case scenario" parameter selection mechanism could be used to help automate folder packrat behavior.
16:38 < kanzure_> All hail c2.com. http://web.archive.org/web/20070329052658/http://www-inst.eecs.berkeley.edu/~maratb/readings/NoSilverBullet.html
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17:06 < kanzure_> http://www.labautopedia.org/mw/index.php/Main_Page "Created by the Association for Laboratory Automation (ALA), LabAutopedia is a collaborative compilation of the world's laboratory automation knowledge continually grown and updated by an online community. "
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20:06 < kanzure_> crap, I have to write a eulogy.
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22:18 < fenn> "the more time you have to spend typing out the path name" ever heard of tab-completion?
22:19 < fenn> dunno what you mean debtools use-case scenario
22:19 < fenn> obviously sorting things by intended use is a good way to find it when you need it
22:36 < fenn> http://www.aislebyaisle.com/  if only they delivered...
22:39 < fenn> "These gains flow from the transformation of computer manufacture from an assembly industry into a process industry."
22:43 < kanzure_> fenn: ultimately folders should only be seen if I'm fixing something (or making something new)
22:43 < kanzure_> I like how I don't have to deal with 'systems folders' on a day to day basis unless I need to
22:44 < fenn> hasnt it always been like that?
22:44 < kanzure_> no, I have these ridiculously huge tree structs on my hard drives for squirrling things into various corners of the partitions.
22:44 < fenn> what about the 'locate' command?
22:44 < kanzure_> it helps :)
22:45 < fenn> namazu is ok too
22:45 < kanzure_> search is not the solution
22:45 < fenn> especially for info that you didnt do the squirreling
22:45 < kanzure_> anyway, now that I have your attention 
22:45  * fenn braces for impact
22:45 < kanzure_> well I'm just starting to notice that Eric is starting to want to do a fablab-like startup thingy
22:45 < kanzure_> (Eric Hunting)
22:45 < fenn> he's been wanting to do that for a couple years
22:46 < kanzure_> just keeping track of a list of people interested in it
22:46 < fenn> ok
22:46 < kanzure_> Todd Huffman is interested too. He's considering doing it with his own money.
22:46 < fenn> i doubt he would be willing to go anywhere or use a lab not built by him
22:46 < kanzure_> Since he partly funded the Afghanistan fablab, I think I he might be able to pull it off
22:47 < fenn> considering doing what?
22:47 < fenn> oh "fablab-like startup" you mean techshop.ws but less teh suck?
22:47 < kanzure_> pulling up a fablab-startup. Todd's idea is more based around "ycombinator but geared towards fablabs", so fablab+incubator.
22:47 < kanzure_> sort of.
22:47 < fenn> yc is a venture capital fund
22:47 < kanzure_> yes, but with us at the core heh' <- not going to lie here.
22:48 < fenn> i could make a pretty cool techshop
22:48 < kanzure_> Todd's a smart guy, he understands the "fablabs making more fablabs" idea
22:48 < fenn> indeed
22:48 < kanzure_> so no worries there
22:48 < fenn> it might actually have some impact if it were semi-self-replicable
22:48 < kanzure_> and since he does bilconference, who knows, he might have magical angel investors
22:49 < fenn> so, i think it should be in austin, or anywhere but {boston, ny, sf}
22:49 < fenn> since they are already saturated
22:49 < kanzure_> anywhere but?
22:49 < kanzure_> huh
22:49 < kanzure_> but the problem with other areas is that tools and materials aren't as easily grabbable
22:49 < fenn> grabbable?
22:49 < kanzure_> fetchable?
22:49 < fenn> have you ever heard of "the rust belt"
22:49 < kanzure_> this ain't it
22:50  * fenn doesnt know his texas geography
22:50 < kanzure_> (and no, not really, I'm in the wrong part of the continent)
22:50 < kanzure_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rust_Belt
22:50 < kanzure_> that graph makes me cry
22:50 < fenn> for robotics stuff the best place to be is san diego
22:50 < fenn> for semiconductor surplus crap i mean
22:50 < fenn> but there are a lot of good old machine tools in ohio-ish
22:51 < kanzure_> right
22:51 < kanzure_> I think it's a mix of where the investors are, and where the cheap equipment is
22:51 < fenn> yeah the investors are generally nowhere near cheap equipment
22:51 < kanzure_> hrm
22:52 < kanzure_> "Afghanistan!"
22:52 < kanzure_> "erm. how about Austin?"
22:52 < fenn> no shit
22:52 < fenn> that's basically my take on OLPC
22:53 < fenn> wow 'Ohio is a 'closed shop' state, which means workers can be forced to join a union whether they wish to or not.'
22:53 < kanzure_> yikes
22:53 < kanzure_> so when I try to formulate an explanation of what sort of startup I'd hope this would be, it turns into saying "design firm" 
22:53 < kanzure_> but really I just mean to say 'cygnus + fablab' I guess
22:53 < fenn> what services are you providing
22:54 < fenn> better to say what you do rather than what you "are" (insert reference to e-prime here)
22:54 < kanzure_> design consulting? Implementation? 
22:54 < fenn> specific use case please
22:54 < fenn> i would like a build a fully automated grocery store, ca you do that?
22:55 < kanzure_> some random company needs us to design them some manufacturing assembly equipment. We say we'll do it cheaper (or whatever), we license it all open source and so on, make our money from it, and apply it to what we need to get done in our tech-base of free stuff anyway.
22:55 < fenn> most manufacturing equipment is all just overpriced lego-blocks anyway
22:55 < fenn> unless it's a "unit"
22:55 < kanzure_> I don't know if there's some better idea to come across than "a super machine shop"
22:56 < kanzure_> because I'm going to be unhappy without any equipment
22:56 < fenn> what does this equipment do
22:56 < kanzure_> fancy our interest
22:57 < fenn> heh
22:57 < fenn> you could make motorcycles
22:57 < fenn> i mean, buy motorcycles and put stickers on them
22:57 < kanzure_> basically I'm taking the redhat/cygnus model and going from there.
22:57 < fenn> the other day i was thinking about cnc-cutting styrofoam insulation into moulds for concrete countertops
22:58 < kanzure_> there's some code base (or not, presently), and then consulting, feature-specific development, technical support, installation at a price. Or comissioned work.
22:58 < fenn> what's "installation" mean
22:59 < kanzure_> "help I ordered my fablab but it's all in a lot of boxes and I'm technically illiterate at this point"
22:59 < fenn> oh
22:59 < fenn> uh..
22:59 < kanzure_> *my superfablab
22:59 < kanzure_> meh
22:59 < fenn> hmm
22:59 < kanzure_> also, the basic idea of the "buy" button on packages in skdb of course
22:59 < fenn> this is sort of what i'm planning for hextatic/hexegrity
23:00 < fenn> open source but you can buy a kit or i can assemble/troubleshoot for you
23:01 < kanzure_> plus plus "feel free to hire us to do something even more awesome, or something that you need that would be a pain in the ass for you to hire developers for"
23:01 < fenn> do = software development? or hardware development?
23:01 < kanzure_> both?
23:02 < kanzure_> (read that as "what's wrong with both?")
23:02 < kanzure_> I'd hope it'd be more hardware, but I'm by far the last person to have issues doing software consulting in that sort of context
23:04 < kanzure_> heh. google's "20% rule" (of personal projects) .. "I made an automated grocery store with my 20% last month.." [or whatever's reasonable for that sort of time commitment- depends on what's laying around and available in the repos]
23:04 < fenn> automated grocery store doesn't really work well on a personal budget
23:05 < kanzure_> well it'd be with the superfablab-machine-shop-awesome-thing's resources, that'd be my guess
23:05 < fenn> i mean, i can slap a box of beans on the shelf pretty easily
23:05 < fenn> it's sort of a network effect, you can go to this one place and have your whole list dumped in a box on a conveyor belt in twenty seconds
23:06 < fenn> on the other hand i like the way trader joe's stocks only generic products
23:06 < fenn> you've probably never heard of trader joe's
23:06 < kanzure_> nope. sorry.
23:06 < fenn> sort of a cross between whole foods and costco
23:07 < fenn> i spent an hour sorting visually-identical yet incompatible clear plastic food containers
23:07 < kanzure_> ok
23:07 < fenn> (today)
23:07 < fenn> so much for intercompatible parts
23:08 < kanzure_> ugh, so many different plastic tuperware product lines
23:08 < kanzure_> asshats. that's what they are.
23:08 < fenn> indeed
23:08 < fenn> i've forbidden the use of tupperware products in my home
23:09 < fenn> but even the supposedly compatible tapered cylindrical containers are not always
23:09 < kanzure_> why do they even stock the different plastic tupperware product lines in the stores though?
23:09 < kanzure_> have you ever walked through those? I've been through with my mom many years ago
23:09 < kanzure_> and it's kind of unreasonable.
23:09 < kanzure_> "why do you stock all 12 of these? they are practically identical."
23:09 < kanzure_> "well, it's options"
23:10 < kanzure_> *cough*
23:10 < kanzure_> "choose your poison" I guess.
23:10 < fenn> i generally go with the one that will be around in five years
23:11 < fenn> too bad there is no open source tupperware container :P
23:11 < fenn> i should do that
23:12 < kanzure_> heh. late night infomercials. 
23:12 < fenn> requirements: cnc lathe, two blocks of wood, vacuum forming machine
23:12 < fenn> nfc where to get polypropylene sheet though
23:12 < kanzure_> what thickness
23:12 < gene> you could 3d print some tupperware fenn
23:13 < kanzure_> http://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?pid=15654&step=4&showunits=inches&id=1&top_cat=0
23:13 < fenn> gene: i'll believe it once it's been demonstrated
23:13 < kanzure_> 0.25" http://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?pid=15654&step=4&showunits=inches&id=1&top_cat=0
23:13 < gene> ok send me a model of the tupperware you want to replicate
23:13 < kanzure_> 0.5" http://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?pid=15656&step=4&showunits=inches&id=1&top_cat=0
23:13 < fenn> uh.. $5 per sheet?
23:13 < kanzure_> 1" http://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?pid=15656&step=4&showunits=inches&id=1&top_cat=0
23:13 < kanzure_> hrm
23:13 < fenn> i think it should be like 0.2mm
23:13 < gene> I get for the most part free 3d prints
23:14 < fenn> or about 8 mil
23:14 < gene> that's thick
23:14 < kanzure_> 1.5 mm http://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?pid=15650&step=4&showunits=inches&id=1&top_cat=0
23:14 < gene> so I've been thinking about your UAV idea fenn
23:14 < gene> and how you might implement it
23:14 < fenn> yeah the skyhook is ok
23:14 < fenn> needs a sort of runway though
23:15 < gene> http://blog.modernmechanix.com/mags/ModernMechanix/3-1935/plane_mail.jpg
23:15 < gene> check this out
23:15 < fenn> or maybe not, not sure how quickly it goes up vs sideways
23:16 < fenn> it actually shoots the package at the plane?
23:16 < gene> skyhook is great for picking up mail given that there is little wind, cheap hydrogen and few trees in pick up area
23:16 < kanzure_> fenn: so just keep the startup idea still cooking.. if there's a better way than 'consulting pluses' to make it happen, I'll listen. but direct development might sound stupid to investors ('gee, sounds like I won't make money in a post-money system.")
23:16 < gene> no it gets attached to the cable
23:16  * kanzure_ goes
23:16 < gene> catapult just makes sure it's going as fast as the plane is
23:17 < gene> but that's a fairly complex mechanism
23:17 < fenn> yeah
23:17 < gene> really only suitable for an exchange hub
23:17 < gene> I think electric might be the way to go
23:18 < fenn> and you have to drop off a package to pick up a package
23:18 < gene> you could have a hook go down instead
23:19 < gene> maybe there are more old patents on airplane mail
23:22 < gene> another drop off mechanism is a tall pole with a Y on top
23:23 < fenn> i generally want it to be free of ground infrastructure
23:23 < gene> to deliver the package the plane extend a cable with an aerodynamic pod
23:23 < fenn> a balloon and a string could be mailed out as a promotional item
23:24 < fenn> some sort of hydrogen reaction in a bag for filling the balloon
23:24 < gene> the plane flies through the Y and releases the cable
23:24 < fenn> that would just rip the y apart or break the cable
23:24 < gene> and the package is delivered
23:25 < gene> not if it is a steel y
23:25 < fenn> the reason fulton's skyhook works is the balloon/cable has almost zero mass
23:25 < gene> the problem with the skyhook is that the balloon gets released
23:25 < gene> and wind
23:25 < fenn> you've got this package going 900 miles an hour and that kinetic energy has to go somewhere
23:25 < fenn> the balloon needn't get released
23:26 < gene> you can slow an RC plane down to slow speeds if you build it right
23:26 < fenn> sure you can make it hover if you build it right
23:26 < gene> that might work
23:27 < fenn> see previous discussion of how two tethered planes going in a circle is really a big helicopter
23:27 < gene> hover above the spot, and lower package to ground via cable and cut cable
23:27 < gene> string is fairly cheap and used in packaging
23:29 < fenn> kanzure_: maybe you need to attach some "context" metadata to your in/out going email
23:29 < fenn> and then sort based on that
23:34 < fenn> i wonder if you mean to link here earlier instead http://c2.com/cgi/wiki/wiki?FileSystemAlternatives
23:37 < fenn> or some other c2 link
23:40 < fenn> A "white panties" directory, a "blonde" directory, an "asians" directory. What do you do do with a blonde in white panties, or a picture of a blone and asian both in white panties?
23:40 < fenn> and those damned blonde asians just mess everything up
23:49 < gene> ???
23:49 < gene> any of you guys checked out the moon tonight?
23:50 < gene> it's lunar perigee
23:51 < fenn> fascinating.
23:51 < fenn> it's what, 5% bigger than normal?
23:52 < gene> yeah
23:53 < gene> where I am there's a halo around the moon
23:55 < gene> white panties directory, WTF?