--- Day changed Sat Apr 11 2009 00:15 -!- any26898923 is now known as katsmeow 00:57 -!- genehacker [n=chatzill@wireless-128-62-99-202.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:29 -!- katsmeow is now known as katsmeow-afk 07:04 -!- xp_prg [n=root@c-24-130-14-113.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 07:11 -!- jm [n=jm@p57B9E1DE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 09:33 -!- jm [n=jm@p57B9E1DE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:46 -!- PeerInfinity [i=PeerInfi@stnbmb01bbp-ac10-31-63.dial.mts.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 11:30 -!- SL4observer [i=PeerInfi@stnbmb01bbp-ac10-31-63.dial.mts.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 11:31 -!- PeerInfinity [i=PeerInfi@stnbmb01bbp-ac10-31-63.dial.mts.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 11:31 -!- SL4observer [i=PeerInfi@stnbmb01bbp-ac10-31-63.dial.mts.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:31 -!- PeerInfinity [i=PeerInfi@stnbmb01bbp-ac10-31-63.dial.mts.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 11:36 < kanzure> http://www.pearlbiotech.com/ 11:57 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 12:01 < kanzure> it looks like tito went off and started a company about his gel box 12:02 < kanzure> which is interesting because it explains why we haven't seen the schematics from him on the project 12:02 < kanzure> conflict of interest. 12:02 < kanzure> look how quickly people are to rush into commercialization of diybio without even having anything in the first place 12:11 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Thinksize 12:16 < UtopiahGHML> "exoskeleton for thinking" makes me think of William Ross Ashby's "intelligence amplification" 12:18 < UtopiahGHML> I personaly like thinking about affordances and the set of tools I can use as a kind of "cognitive swarm", kind of distributed intelligence or things like http://springerlink.com/content/w5656m501r410g26/ http://www.oup.com/us/catalog/general/subject/Philosophy/Mind/?view=usa&sf=toc&ci=9780195333213 12:20 < UtopiahGHML> (Clark also developped the idea of cognitive scaffolding) 12:26 < kanzure> I don't know if an "exoskeleton for thinking" equates to the "cognitive swarm" that you've made wiht your web 2.0 apps 12:26 < kanzure> it's certainly a way to leave cookie crumbs 12:26 < kanzure> but that's not the same thing 12:31 < fenn> lol $160 for a vaporware gelbox 12:36 < kanzure> I sent an email to diybio about it 12:37 < kanzure> http://groups.google.com/group/diybio/msg/16b83eb1d0a0e46f 12:49 < kanzure> woot, "Talairach coordinates". best thing ever! 12:50 < kanzure> "e Talairach coordinate system of the human brain, which is used to describe the location of brain structures independent from individual differences in the size and overall shape of the brain." 12:51 < kanzure> http://www.google.com/search?client=opera&rls=en&q=Talairach+coordinates+brain+regions+dataset&sourceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 12:51 < fenn> this is interesting in that it's so god damn unorganized http://openeverything.us/ 12:54 < kanzure> I think I'm going to become RMS' successor and start ranting about how you should all be careful about using the 'open' buzzword (an open buzzword) 13:02 < kanzure> is the protocol creation wizard the same thing as an skdb package-maker-assistant wizard? the "how to build it" serializer works the same way for both, but (semantically) I don't know if that makes sense for the protocol one. For instance, consider PCR. You're not asking "how to build PCR"- you're asking how to build copies of the DNA. that's not a "package". 13:03 < kanzure> oh, I guess the package is the "PCR machine black box" (or at least the steps that such a machine would carry out) 13:03 < kanzure> nevermind 13:07 < fenn> protocol would be a instructions that go to a machine or human 13:08 < fenn> black box in this case is the lab 13:08 < fenn> or all the individual things in a lab 13:09 < kanzure> I don't think that solves it. if the "protocol" is the instructions that go to the human- or to the machine- to perform PCR, then what is the package that had those instructions attached to it? 13:09 < kanzure> is the package a 'PCR black box machine'? 13:09 < fenn> lab 13:10 < kanzure> no 13:10 < fenn> why not 13:10 < kanzure> "earth" 13:10 < kanzure> agx-get install earth 13:10 < kanzure> maybe I just don't understand 13:10 < kanzure> why lab? 13:10 < fenn> any random place on earth isnt guaranteed to have a scale, beakers, chemicals, pcr machine, etc 13:10 < kanzure> I was expecting an skdb package would be a 'machine' or 'unit process' 13:10 < kanzure> PCR is a unit process.. 13:10 < kanzure> lab is not 13:11 < fenn> there's a minimal set of things you can expect to find in a biology lab 13:11 < kanzure> generic lab would be a package, but it would have sub packages 13:11 < kanzure> one sub package would be a computer 13:11 < fenn> yes of course 13:11 < kanzure> another would be "PCR machine" ?? 13:11 < kanzure> even though PCR isn't done in a single machine 13:12 < kanzure> (although it could be) 13:12 < fenn> pcr is only one step in the protocol 13:12 < fenn> do_pcr(with these parameters) 13:13 < kanzure> seems like this is the same problem of wondering about "how to build the machine" versus "instructions on how one would use it" 13:13 < kanzure> erm, that's a bad way to put it 13:14 < kanzure> because instructions on how to use something, etc., would be involved in the "build instructions" 13:14 < kanzure> otherwise how would you know how to build it? :p 13:15 < fenn> false 13:15 < kanzure> hm? 13:15 < fenn> you use other machines to build the machine (unless it's a gingery lathe) 13:15 < fenn> well, even then 13:15 < fenn> only replicators build themselves 13:16 < fenn> what's the problem? 13:17 < kanzure> the "function" of this PCR machine is to carry out PCR; the 'build instructions' would tell you how to use the other tools to make this PCR machine; 13:17 < kanzure> oh 13:17 < kanzure> I see now 13:17 < kanzure> I think the problem is that I don't know how to represent a "stopper" or "terminator" 13:17 < fenn> you have to take the usage scenario into consideration when designing the machine, but not when building it 13:17 < kanzure> say that you want to do what a "PCR machine" would do 13:17 < kanzure> you could either use other tools to build the machine, or you could use your hands to build it / carry it out 13:18 < kanzure> erm. that's two problems. How do you know if the instructions are "how to build it" versus "how to carry out PCR"? 13:18 < kanzure> a "DNA amplification machine" carries out the PCR protocol- building the "DNA amplification machine" does not equate to the protocol instructions on PCR 13:19 < fenn> 'how to carry out PCR' is a process 13:19 < fenn> 'how to build it' is a process that results in a PCR machine 13:20 < fenn> the PCR process functionality is provided by the PCR machine (and by hand dipping in water baths) 13:20 < fenn> and taq polymerase and nucleotides and primers 13:21 < fenn> or maybe i should say: the function of DNA amplification is provided by the PCR process 13:22 < kanzure> so there are some sequence of events that make up "PCR" which are "solved by" a package (the PCR machine); an instantiation of the PCR machine can be created by following the build instructions 13:23 < kanzure> another way to "solve" the sequence of events in PCR is via a protocol output (that a human would read) 13:23 < fenn> i dont know why you're saying "solve", the machine "does" something 13:23 < kanzure> right, those "sequences" are "done by this machine" 13:24 < fenn> woo 13:24 < kanzure> whereas with hand tools, "that sequence is done by these hand tools" 13:24 < fenn> right 13:24 < fenn> sequence = process, more or less 13:24 < fenn> process is what happens to the stuff; sequence is what you do to the stuff to make the process happen 13:26 < kanzure> so 13:26 < kanzure> um 13:27 * fenn writes this down somewhere 13:29 < kanzure> pcr.skdb is the "PCR machine"- it contains the instructions to build/assemble the machine, which implements PCR. But you don't necessarily have the tools to build/assemble the machine (let's imagine it involves a 6-axis CNC machine, and you don't have that); instead of building the machine, you want SKDB-software to spit out instructions on how to perform PCR with hand tools. 13:29 < fenn> call it 'thermocycler' for less confusion 13:29 < kanzure> some set of hand tools, in some sequence of events, do indeed perform PCR 13:30 < fenn> i hate to break it to you but humans are machines 13:30 < kanzure> that's right 13:30 < kanzure> that's why I said something about "terminators" or "stoppers" 13:30 < fenn> stopping what? 13:31 < fenn> graph traversal? 13:31 < kanzure> trying to make a tool to make a tool to make a tool; whereas at level=1 deep you really could have just used a human hand 13:31 < kanzure> but I don't care about that- that's an easier problem- 13:31 < kanzure> I'm preoccupied with wondering how to use pcr.skdb to generate instructions to perform PCR 13:31 < kanzure> versus instructions to build the PCR machine. 13:32 < kanzure> (the PCR machine implements the PCR process; so, hand-tools would have to 'implement' the PCR process as well) 13:32 < kanzure> but I'm having some trouble thinking of how those two sets of instructions are distinguished, or something 13:34 < kanzure> oh, maybe I'm assuming too much 13:34 < kanzure> what "PCR machine"? (I don't mean just a thermocycler) 13:34 < fenn> no sense in defining it 13:34 < fenn> it's trivial; PCR machine is a machine that carries out the PCR process 13:35 < kanzure> "converts mechanical energy to electrical energy" 13:35 < kanzure> that's a simple 'function structure graph' of sorts 13:35 < fenn> dunno what you're on about 13:35 < kanzure> and different components can 'solve' or 'implement' it, i.e. make it a reality 13:35 < kanzure> bleh 13:35 < fenn> PCR machine doesn't convert anything to anything 13:35 < kanzure> there's a difference between asking the skdb package how to build it (the pcr machine) versus how to carry out what the machine does 13:36 < fenn> except perhaps as a requirement of changing the temperature 13:37 < fenn> look, different thermocyclers will have different programming interfaces 13:37 < kanzure> two solutions on "how to implement the PCR process" would pop out from SKDB (tentatively): (1) a sequence of hand tool manipulations; (2) an assembly of other parts that make up that "PCR machine". 13:37 < fenn> a human doing a waterbath protocol is a thermocycling machine, get over it 13:37 < kanzure> but "how to build the machine" is not the same type of information of "how to perform PCR" 13:37 < kanzure> oh, I agree that it's true 13:37 < kanzure> I just don't know how to represent that 13:38 < fenn> build a thermocycling machine by adding a human, a lab, some water baths, tubes, etc 13:38 < kanzure> that machine needs instructions though 13:38 < fenn> now your scratch-build thermocycling machine is ready to rumble! 13:38 < fenn> then you follow the human thermocycler protocol 13:38 < kanzure> where the hell did that come from? 13:39 < fenn> it's written in pcr.xml 13:39 < fenn> or generated by that haskell script from yesterday 13:39 < kanzure> my point though is that they are the same things 13:39 < kanzure> erm 13:39 < fenn> if there's no info on how to do it in the database, skdb can't help you 13:40 < kanzure> a human machine versus a pcr machine of other components, those are the same things 13:40 < fenn> you can't just say 'amplify me somem DNA' and expect SKDB to magically know how 13:40 < kanzure> no, of course not 13:40 < fenn> yes, the process is the same, but the sequence of instructions is different 13:41 < kanzure> but PCR is ultimately just a collection of parameters to different machines, involving only (1) volumes and (2) temperatures 13:41 < fenn> this is the reality of CAM 13:41 < kanzure> in one case, the machine is a PCR machine; in the other, it's a human 13:41 < fenn> different machines require different instructions 13:41 < kanzure> and a human can do a lot of stuff, so it's nice and all 13:41 < fenn> too expensive for my taste 13:42 < fenn> and error prone 13:42 < kanzure> the original idea was that if you had something like origami_machine.skdb, you could either build the origami machine and fold origami crease patterns, or give humans instructions on how to fold the crease patterns (CAM that both humans and the machine could read) 13:42 < fenn> btw it's a human + waterbaths + tubes n stuff 13:43 < fenn> ok, but if there's no CAM software available your only choice is to write instructions by hand 13:44 < kanzure> in the case of the virtual character animation videos, the CAM commands that a human would get for the PCR protocol (or whatever), would be carried out via trajectories and the 3D char 13:47 < kanzure> the point was that there was supposed to be some way that you could say "well, thanks for the build instructions, but I don't have $expensive_machine, and apparently I can implement that same functionality by doing it through this different set of tools" 13:48 < kanzure> the build instructions being abstracted. and implementations/solutions consisting of different sets of machines/tools. 13:48 < fenn> yes but that's not always the case 13:48 < fenn> you can't forge steel without a hammer 13:49 < fenn> you can't compile matter without a matter compiler.. 13:49 < fenn> it's easier for people to think in terms of sequences of instructions than build processes 13:49 < fenn> because we're hard wired for that 13:50 < fenn> so i think it'd be worth thinking about how to reverse engineer instruction sequences into the processes that happen to materials, energy, information 13:53 < kanzure> so one particular process is where you lift up water 8 ft into the air, and then drop it; there is one machine that implements this (inputs: 20 gallons of water, electrical energy), various components and gears and lifting apparatus and ropes and other parts like that are involved 13:53 < kanzure> now, a human could perform the same task 13:53 < kanzure> with a ladder and a bucket 13:54 < fenn> yes, but would it be art? 13:55 < kanzure> assembly instructions are not execution instructions 13:55 < kanzure> and yet shouldn't they be? 13:55 < fenn> yes they are 13:55 < kanzure> I know you said that the execution instructions would be given by pcr.xml 13:56 < fenn> erf 13:56 < kanzure> but that's in terms of actions, whereas the "PCR machine" is in terms of different volumes passing from interface to interface between its parts 13:56 < fenn> you're playing games with me 13:56 < fenn> the assembly process is carried out by executing assembly instructions 13:56 < kanzure> ok 13:57 < kanzure> but "execution instructions" are like human-readable PCR protocol thingy 13:57 < kanzure> and yet that's not the same thing as assembling a PCR machine 13:57 < fenn> no, they aren't even instructions for the same process 13:57 < fenn> one process amplifies DNA, the other builds a PCR machine 13:58 < kanzure> but the PCR machine is an implementation of a process that amplifies DNA 13:58 < fenn> NO 13:58 < fenn> the machine is a machine, not a process! 13:59 < kanzure> it implements a process 13:59 < fenn> a process is what happens to matter/energy/information to result in a new state 13:59 < fenn> i dont know wtf "implements" is supposed to me 13:59 < fenn> mean 14:01 < fenn> ok let's say the pcr machine is totally self contained, no input parameters or anything 14:01 < fenn> then the instructions are encoded into its design 14:01 < fenn> the same way you can make a mechanical computer 14:01 < kanzure> the machine executes the CAM instructions or is equivalent to executing the CAM instructions. that's "implements". 14:02 < kanzure> CAM instructions represent a process 14:02 < fenn> no, they represent a sequence of actions 14:02 < fenn> or a sequence of processes if you want 14:02 < fenn> if it's only one instruction, fine, that's a process 14:03 < fenn> there comes a point when the complexity of the process is too much for our database to model in one step, and it has to be broken down into a sequence 14:04 < fenn> because i'm sure as hell not writing a new class for every set of build instructions 14:05 < fenn> the thing is, cam instructions are not only information, they're also energy which results in things actually happening 14:05 < fenn> (under certain circumstances) 14:06 < fenn> so in addition to representing things, they are actions which cause the things represented to happen 14:07 < fenn> doesn't this seem overly philosophical to you? 14:08 < fenn> i feel like korzybski is going to come out of the wall and bludgeon me with a dictionary 14:08 < kanzure> my point is that pcr.skdb has assembly/build instructions (CAM) ( a sequence of processes, if you want ) that make the PCR machine. that PCR machine is made up of components passing volumes of stuff between one another (oh, and temperatures). other components, that satisfy the same constraints, could be assembled and interchanged (theoretically, if they are available etc.) the same sequence of passing volumes and such between one another- that can be "implemented" by a human with tubs and such 14:08 < fenn> that can be ... 14:09 < kanzure> I don't know where my cutoff is, but the end was "that can be 'implemented' by a human with tubes and such" 14:10 < fenn> ok, where 'constraints' is the PCR process 14:10 * kanzure nods 14:11 < fenn> 'implemented' is a buzzword 14:11 < kanzure> the machine executes the CAM instructions or is equivalent to executing the CAM instructions. that's "implements". 14:12 < kanzure> (in this case, the human machine) 14:14 < kanzure> oh 14:14 < kanzure> so if the PCR process is a set of constraints on states or pre/post-conditions after each action that is taken (expressed in the CAM, etc.) 14:14 < kanzure> then that might make it easier? 14:15 < fenn> easier than what? 14:16 < kanzure> I mean to say, "then it would be possible to find equivalencies between a collection of parts passing volumes and temperatures around (etc.) and other parts or other tools (like a human) doing the same thing, satisfying the same constraints" 14:16 < fenn> i had always intended to include tolerances along with the ideal values 14:17 < fenn> that'd be a hell of a constraints engine 14:18 < kanzure> for PCR, honestly the constraints aren't too rough 14:18 < fenn> wolfram's schtick was that it was much easier to create simple systems than to solve for constraints 14:18 < kanzure> hell, you have people bobbing tubes in tubs of hot water 14:19 < kanzure> how constrained could that be? heh' 14:19 < fenn> it doesn't matter what the margin is 14:19 < fenn> it's that there's a constraint at all 14:20 < fenn> you know the line about the singing bear 14:20 < kanzure> no 14:20 < fenn> er, frog 14:20 < kanzure> no 14:20 < kanzure> these constraints aren't the same type of constraints that you are used to though 14:20 < kanzure> I mean, it's much simpler. 14:20 < fenn> it doesn't matter that he sings poorly, what's amazing is that he sings at all 14:21 < fenn> what do you mean, not the same? 14:21 < kanzure> PCR is a sequence of constraints like "within this temperature for this period of time with this much volume of xyz" 14:21 < fenn> it's a range of physical quantities 14:21 < kanzure> yeah 14:21 < fenn> so? 14:21 < kanzure> so find something that has interfaces of those types of physical quantities in the database 14:21 < fenn> yeah that's the hard part 14:21 < kanzure> in this case we'd have some tubes, tubs, a thermocycler with little slots for liquid volumes 14:21 < kanzure> nope, the interfaces are explicitly listed 14:21 < kanzure> remember? 14:22 < kanzure> "tagged" 14:22 < fenn> hmm 14:22 < fenn> if you have a pcr machine already tagged then it's easy 14:22 < kanzure> true that. 14:22 < fenn> trivial 14:22 < kanzure> but let's say that you didn't have a pcr machine in the db 14:22 < kanzure> but you had a number of tubes, tubs, etc. 14:22 < kanzure> the tub can hold 20 gallons of water 14:22 < fenn> say you have some heating element, some laws of physics that tell you about heat conduction and heat capacity vs temperature and energy input 14:22 < fenn> and a positioner 14:23 < kanzure> the human satisfies the positioner 14:23 < kanzure> the human is a magical element in all of this sort of :-/ but whatever 14:23 < fenn> but have you encoded the parameters of the human into the database yet? 14:23 < kanzure> a kind of "well, we don't have anything that does that, maybe we can say a human does it" 14:23 < kanzure> yeah yeah shut up :p 14:23 < fenn> 'tagged' the human so to speak 14:23 < fenn> it's a big problem 14:23 < kanzure> sshhh. 14:23 < kanzure> I don't want to have to do a model of the range of possible motions of humans (quite yet) 14:23 < fenn> modeling a human will take lots of time and effort and probably real experimentation 14:24 < kanzure> right, in the mean time we have a 'doll model' 14:24 < fenn> forget about the human 14:24 < kanzure> or we kind of assume the human can do it (otherwise, the package creation wizard would have complained there's no way to do something) 14:24 < fenn> you have a robot, with 20mm/s positioning in x/y/z with 2mm/s^2 accel and a 5kg payload 14:24 < kanzure> heh 14:24 < fenn> the gripper looks like this: (cad file) 14:25 < fenn> now what 14:25 < kanzure> it has xyz surfaces for gripping: 14:25 < kanzure> erm, s/xyz/these/ 14:25 < kanzure> well 14:26 < kanzure> um. 14:26 < kanzure> what are you asking? 14:26 < kanzure> why is that in the database? 14:26 < fenn> there's this jumble of mathematical equivalence laws, simple machines (a resistor, positioner), and a process defined as a set of constraints 14:26 < kanzure> I mean, are we doing PCR? 14:26 < fenn> yes 14:26 < kanzure> ok, so there's no human? 14:27 < fenn> no, the human just causes trouble because it's "magic" 14:27 < fenn> you're permitted to use the human for assembly of the pcr machine 14:27 < kanzure> but not for the execution of PCR? 14:27 < fenn> no 14:27 < kanzure> wah. 14:28 < kanzure> ok so it's conceivable to imagine some collection of parts that are capable of transferring volumes between each other 14:28 < kanzure> a piping system maybe 14:28 < kanzure> but you want me to use the gripper somehow, for some reason 14:28 < fenn> it's just there, you dont have to use it 14:29 < fenn> likewise for the piping system 14:29 < kanzure> the majority of actions that have to be performed in a biology lab bench protocol are trivial: usually it's just move different pipettes to different places 14:31 < kanzure> heh while thinking of how to check whether or not the constraints are satisfied with a database of tubes, tubs, and a positioner, 14:31 < kanzure> I started thinking "gee, skdb would be nice for this" 14:31 < kanzure> oh wait. :( 14:31 < fenn> ok what is your desired interface 14:32 < fenn> to check whether the constraints are satisfied 14:32 < kanzure> I have selected a group of parts from the database 14:32 < kanzure> or a program has returned a list of parts for me 14:32 < fenn> how did you select them? randomly? 14:32 < kanzure> they each have interfaces that accept the physical quantities that have to be strummed together for the PCR protocol 14:32 < fenn> ok so now you have 9 million results from your query 14:33 < kanzure> well, select one of each type 14:33 < fenn> sorry, "over 9 thousand" 14:33 < kanzure> also, it's legit if there's a saved set that somebody else has attached to the skdb file 14:33 < fenn> ok, a helium tank, a celeron processor, and an apache helicopter landing strut have been returned from your query 14:33 < kanzure> and let's assume that you happen to have all of those, in that set that was previously found 14:34 < kanzure> why? 14:34 < kanzure> does a celeron processor have the capacity to hold 20 microL of liquid? 14:34 < fenn> because the tank has the right volume, the processor the right wattage, and the landing strut the right inner diameter 14:34 < kanzure> remember, this was constrained by the PCR process 14:34 < kanzure> oh, I guess the processor could be used as a heating element 14:34 < kanzure> badass 14:35 < kanzure> but let's say that somebody already attached a set of equipment parts that he feels are useful 14:35 < kanzure> and they happen to be the vials and tubs scenario 14:35 < kanzure> :p 14:35 < kanzure> because people (who make skdb packages) happen to not be idiots 14:35 < fenn> ok fine, a tub, an eppendorf tube, and an aquarium heater 14:35 < kanzure> and a human? or a positioner? 14:36 < kanzure> how exactly were state transitions satisfied by those parts? 14:36 < fenn> and a reprap stage 14:36 < kanzure> stage = xyz positioner? 14:36 < fenn> ya 14:36 < kanzure> oh right, as in 'microscope slide stage' 14:36 < fenn> well, the parts don't actually satisfy the constraints, that's the point 14:37 < fenn> you have to use some mathematical mojo to figure out how to solve the constraints, given physical laws and available quantities like wattage and heat capacity 14:37 < fenn> that's the part i'm stuck on 14:37 < fenn> well, not really stuck on, it's your problem 14:38 < fenn> sort of a reverse engineering project 14:38 < fenn> i'd just write the protocol and get it over with 14:39 < fenn> you know, ants will never build a bridge, even if you give them all the materials they need 14:39 < kanzure> have you ever seen an ant bridge? 14:39 < kanzure> it's quite impressive 14:39 < fenn> it's made of ants 14:39 < kanzure> so? 14:39 < fenn> um, there are limitations to ant construction methodology 14:39 < kanzure> oh :( 14:41 < fenn> heh. "ANTS is an "autonomous nano technology swarm" developed by NASA for possible use in the "lunar base infrastructure" of tomorrow. 14:41 < fenn> ANTS consist of "highly reconfigurable networks of struts, acting as 3D mesh or 2D fabric to perform a range of functions on demand." 14:41 < kanzure> positional/movement-constraints suck. 14:42 < kanzure> a system of pipes and tubes is easier 14:43 < fenn> ok pipes and tubes then 14:43 < fenn> how does your automatic solver figure out that pipes are better 14:43 < kanzure> then you just ask skdb to bring up thingies that can fit together nad have physical quantities 14:43 < kanzure> oh, well, it doesn't 14:44 < fenn> actually i dont care about better 14:44 < fenn> i just want to know how it knows that it will work at all 14:44 < kanzure> if the constraints are satisfied, then there you go. 14:45 < fenn> but you'd have to go through a near infinite number of combinations before you happen on a system that works 14:46 < kanzure> I think that might be okay because you can constrain the set of possible components to select from / check with 14:46 < kanzure> you would constrain it to those components/parts that you have in your inventory, no? 14:46 < kanzure> or something that you could make in a reasonable amount of time 14:46 < fenn> i dont believe it, but since there's no way to know, i guess we'll just agree to disagree 14:47 < kanzure> and besides, what's more important is that you have a way for the wizard to tell a person whether or not what they are encoding is impossible 14:47 < kanzure> I think that, like with CAD constraints on weird geometries, super constraint problems should be left to external super constraint solvers; just like FEM/FEA. 14:48 < kanzure> ok I've dug myself into a hole 14:48 < kanzure> wtf am I am on about? 14:49 < fenn> trying to create a system from components 14:49 < fenn> given the end result and the components 14:49 < fenn> hey i have a solution 14:49 < kanzure> so why did you disallow my use of a human? 14:50 < fenn> we'll just farm it out to unwitting humans on the intarweb in the form of addictive flash puzzle games 14:50 < kanzure> I think that it would be somewhat reasonable for some constraints to be satisfied by the Magical Human 14:51 < kanzure> for instance, moving pipettes around 14:51 < fenn> after all "80% of innovation is provided by users" right? :P 14:51 < kanzure> the "PCR machine" though would have something else entirely- whatever the designer came up with in all of its brilliance 14:52 < kanzure> the wizard would have to just make sure that what the human is doing isn't going to be impossible, so there will be some constraints on what you're allowed to offload to the Magical Human 14:52 < fenn> i dont like including the human because it causes problems that are not relevant to building a system (problems are related to modeling existing artifacts) 14:52 < fenn> i mean we know already that it can be done with a robot, so why complicate the problem unnecessarily 14:53 < kanzure> I know we can spit out instructions telling the human what to do- we could even spit out standard instructions telling a lab bot what to do with different vials and tubes and jars 14:54 < kanzure> but what I don't know how to do is encode "motional performance requirements" with PCR or something 14:54 < kanzure> "you must be able to stretch this far with this many fingers" heh' (they *never* say that in those crafts packets where you have to become a super-person to put something together) 14:54 < fenn> laws of motion 14:55 < fenn> allows you to transform acceleration into velocity and from there to position and time 14:55 < fenn> pcr doesn't involve lots of complicated forces and vectors 14:55 < kanzure> ok. I can see that. 14:56 < fenn> the motion is really only doing temperature regulation 14:56 < kanzure> wait, what? 14:56 < kanzure> dumping ice or something? 14:56 < kanzure> I thought it was moving vials around to another location 14:56 < fenn> i'm just thinking of a robot moving one tube back and forth 14:56 < kanzure> yeah ok 14:57 < kanzure> so why not say that a human can satisfy that constraint too? say that a human has about "these degrees of freedom, and this range of force vectors, being safe assumptions" - and something that a handicapped person would be able to do or something heh' 14:57 < fenn> because the problem isn't about what the human can do 14:57 < kanzure> haha. "welcome to skdb9000. please enter your strength in Newtons" 14:57 < fenn> it's about linking up already entered metadata 14:57 < kanzure> it is if they want to know how to do something without building more tools 14:57 < kanzure> right 14:58 < fenn> i'm sure there will be all sorts of wizards for modeling your own capabilities 14:58 < fenn> and most people won't use them at all 14:58 < kanzure> that's why I said a 'doll model' would be ok 14:59 < kanzure> I mean, at the very least, there are some basic assumptions we can make about their ability to bootstrap 14:59 < fenn> 1) they can read 14:59 < fenn> 2) they have a computer 14:59 < fenn> um. what else? 14:59 < kanzure> and thou shalt read and then implement by the divine grace of yer eyes moving across the magical pages! 14:59 < kanzure> they have an inventory, and supposedly can assemble some things from it 14:59 < kanzure> i.e., we're going to have to be able to assume that they can do *some* things 14:59 < fenn> oo lots of assumptions 15:00 < fenn> what if they are prisoners of war 15:00 < kanzure> so they have an inventory of like, a pair of underwair and a bible? 15:00 < fenn> and a paperclip 15:00 < kanzure> damn it man, I'm not MacGuyver! 15:01 < kanzure> hehe, but why did you ask that? 15:01 < kanzure> gasp, I misspelled his name!. MacGyver. 15:01 < fenn> one of the dave gingery-related legends is about prisoners in a WWII japanese camp 15:02 < kanzure> I remember something about that 15:02 < kanzure> they made a tool somehow 15:02 < fenn> they actually cast a lathe out of discarded tin cans, and built a radio transmitter 15:02 < kanzure> did it work? 15:02 < fenn> yeah 15:02 < kanzure> oh shit 15:02 < bkero> ttThat's pretty fucking cool 15:03 < fenn> after every work session they had to disassemble everything and hide it in various places 15:03 < fenn> iirc the batteries went inside a hollow table leg 15:04 < kanzure> ah, so they did have batteries 15:04 < kanzure> and somewhat of an inventory 15:04 < kanzure> see? see? 15:04 < fenn> hmm 15:04 < kanzure> and they did actually have a few arms, see? 15:05 < kanzure> one problem I see is that everyone would want to make everything rely on a human or something 15:05 < kanzure> and not encode constraints in a way that automation solutions can later come in and pick up 15:05 < kanzure> well that's not true I guess 15:05 < kanzure> most of the basic force vectors *are* easily automatable 15:05 < fenn> but they aren't encoded in the first place 15:05 < kanzure> why not? 15:06 < kanzure> I mean, didn't I say they would be? 15:06 < fenn> '2 volumes EtOH' 15:06 < kanzure> heh 15:06 < kanzure> this is why I failed in the ellington lab 15:07 < fenn> i really dont want to have to guess at what the person who wrote the protocol meant 15:07 < kanzure> I agree 15:07 < kanzure> but let's say that they encode a requirement to be able to move something 2 meters 15:07 < kanzure> plus or minus some tolerance 15:07 < kanzure> the typical "doll human model" satisfies that (or it should?) 15:07 < kanzure> which I haven't come up with yet 15:08 < kanzure> the way I see it happening, as we add a package, in the wizard, we will say, "geeze, the doll human can be reasonably expected to be able to do this-or-that" and add it in. 15:08 < fenn> error: insufficient mana 15:09 < kanzure> ? 15:09 < kanzure> I'm trying to remember if there is a reference from the SoM games that I could use here 15:09 < fenn> SoM? 15:09 < kanzure> Secret of Mana 15:09 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_of_Mana 15:10 < fenn> mana was used in RPG's to represent a store of magical or mental energy 15:10 < kanzure> right 15:10 < kanzure> oooh crap 15:11 < kanzure> there's no way I'm going to program an exercise physiology model of burning calories versus at what point a human might pass out or whatever 15:11 < fenn> seems fairly straightforward to me 15:12 < fenn> modeling mental capabilities is harder 15:12 < kanzure> sure. 15:12 < kanzure> did you see emlyn's recent post? complaining about how most exercise models "assert that humans have all the systematic complexity of a bucket: in, and out" 15:13 < fenn> no i never saw that 15:13 < kanzure> (it was on the extropy-chat list) 15:15 < kanzure> I guess cooking instructions/recipes were going to be something else to include originally as well, so that would go under human maintenance instructions heh 15:15 < kanzure> this is turning kind of weird. 15:15 < fenn> you mean awesome? 15:16 < fenn> people have been fumbling around for centuries with the question of "how to live" 15:18 < fenn> if we can provide some basic analysis of the cost of living, that would certainly help out 15:20 < kanzure> yes, I mean 'awesome'- I forgot my words again 15:21 < katsmeow-afk> the cost as how rich usa-iams live, or how poor usa-ians live? 15:21 < fenn> the cost of living a certain way 15:21 < katsmeow-afk> ah 15:21 < fenn> except turned into physical quantities 15:21 < kanzure> in other words, an aspies' dream computer 15:21 < kanzure> heh' 15:21 < fenn> not some arbitrary number that changes based on chaos effects 15:22 < katsmeow-afk> heh@ kanzure 15:22 < fenn> i mean really, who bases their planning on a chaotic function? wtf! 15:22 < kanzure> arguably it's not much of a plan 15:22 < fenn> don't worry, magic will take care of it 15:22 < katsmeow-afk> you may haveto plan on chaos, i find little rational thinking going on in humans 15:23 < kanzure> don't rely on them 15:23 < kanzure> what's so hard about that? 15:23 < kanzure> besides the knowledge issue 15:23 < katsmeow-afk> i, for instance, am using a 15 watt incandescent bulb where a 2watt led wold be fine, and prolly cheaper upfront, and certainly cheaper in power use 15:24 < kanzure> say, do you know about skdb? 15:24 < fenn> 15 watt isnt very bright 15:24 < kanzure> I mean, do you follow what we're talking about? 15:24 < katsmeow-afk> fenn, it lites only the keybd 15:24 < katsmeow-afk> it's the only lite on in the room, save the monitor 15:24 < fenn> scary 15:24 < fenn> do you have a white on black color scheme? 15:24 < katsmeow-afk> no, why? 15:25 < fenn> doesn't the contrast bother your eyes? 15:25 < katsmeow-afk> heh, the keybd is black on white, sorta 15:25 < fenn> i mean the bright glowing monitor in darkness 15:25 < katsmeow-afk> i keep my eyes moving, and often look away 15:25 < katsmeow-afk> besides, it's daylite out, i am here only a few moments to check on stuff running 15:26 < katsmeow-afk> the 15 watt keybd lamp is brighter 15:26 < fenn> katsmeow-afk: skdb is about technological dependencies, in order to let you know whether it's possible to build something given what you have, or that you'll need to build/buy a certain set of tools to do it efficiently 15:27 < katsmeow-afk> kanzure asked about skdb 15:27 < kanzure> yes, we're explaining it to you 15:27 < katsmeow-afk> kool, thanks 15:27 < kanzure> did I just misunderstand something? 15:27 < fenn> and also to provide instructions on how to build it 15:28 < katsmeow-afk> i think maybe i missed something, but i am always glad to learn new stuff,, mostly 15:28 < kanzure> it's the context that we were talking within when you joined in, in other words 15:28 < katsmeow-afk> ok, proceed 15:29 < kanzure> O.o well er um 15:30 < kanzure> basic human capabilities model, in terms of basic physical quantities 15:30 < kanzure> I'm sure the army has something like that? how long a soldier can run (before dying) 15:30 * fenn takes a chocolate induced nap/coma 15:30 < kanzure> night 15:31 < katsmeow-afk> they prolly do, which is why they want exoskeletons, butlikewise, i expect the data is a national secret 15:32 < kanzure> basically it'd be nice to know whether or not an average person is going to be able to do some certain task, like lifting a heavy engine block into place, or doing enough of the things to mount a chain to lift the engine block into place, or something 15:32 < kanzure> if you're not able to execute some of the actions required to build the chain mount, then you're not going to be able to lift the heavy engine block, unless you have enough muscle to do that in the first place 15:32 < kanzure> I don't actually know how heavy an engine block is 15:32 < katsmeow-afk> what i find a lil scarey is the possibilty the exoskeleton may be merged with BigDog, so the soldier can sleep in the exoskeleton in route to the fight 15:32 < kanzure> so this example probably sucks 15:33 < kanzure> heh, that reminds me of Zoids 15:33 < kanzure> does anyone remember zoids? gah 15:33 < katsmeow-afk> depends on engine size and coposition, Tiggr has actual engine weights of common car engines 15:33 < kanzure> http://smilykid.com/black%20impact%20blade%20liger.jpg (the face is the cockpit) 15:34 < katsmeow-afk> basically 150 - 350lbs, stripped of all addons 15:34 < kanzure> 150 is a common weight that some body lifters can do 15:34 < kanzure> I think I can lift 150, though I don't know if I can bench it 15:34 < katsmeow-afk> yeas, 150 is lower than some bigger autotrannies 15:35 < katsmeow-afk> the only steel in some engines is the crank, valves, camshaft, and some bolts 15:35 < katsmeow-afk> the rest is aluminum/alloys 15:36 < katsmeow-afk> cylinder liner 15:36 < kanzure> hm so if you consider a stationary human, various stances allow various ranges of forces to be projected across different regions of space 15:37 * katsmeow-afk nods 15:37 < kanzure> I feel like I'm making a street fighter game engine 15:37 < kanzure> and considering the entire range of motions might be a bit much.. hrm.. 15:39 < fenn> for human physiological models, i bet nasa has lots of good and publicly available data 15:40 < katsmeow-afk> i believe they do, within spaceflight / aircraft domain 15:40 < fenn> katsmeow-afk: why bother putting a solder in it in the first place 15:41 < katsmeow-afk> fenn, dynamic responce and autonomous control 15:41 < katsmeow-afk> till 2012, at least 15:41 < fenn> katsmeow-afk: you can't pull a 150 pound engine out of a car by hand, even if you can lift that much 15:41 < fenn> this is why we need a human kinematics model (remember i was talking about ergonomics) 15:41 < fenn> er, 15:42 < fenn> ka* 15:42 < katsmeow-afk> you don't want to send in 10 robots, and they suddenly don't recognise each other and all die by friendly fire 15:42 < fenn> teleoperated 15:42 < katsmeow-afk> you cannot pull it out by hand? 15:42 < katsmeow-afk> teleoperated can be broken by interferrence 15:42 < fenn> angles are all wrong 15:42 < katsmeow-afk> what angles? it's ^up^ 15:43 < fenn> hum, seems to work good enough for SWORDS and UAV drones 15:43 < katsmeow-afk> so far it works, i agree 15:44 < katsmeow-afk> "not enough data" can be used to resolve how you use a nuke attack sub to gut a troop transport tho 15:44 < fenn> http://imagebin.org/45170 15:44 < katsmeow-afk> i can't open a browser atm 15:44 < fenn> the kinematic model would generate a graph like this in 34+ dimensions 15:45 < fenn> or however many degrees of freedom a human has 15:45 < fenn> the process of lifting an engine means the engine mass goes through this 34-dimensional trajectory 15:46 < katsmeow-afk> heh, i was just trying to figure if those Lexus steering units would work on a hip joint last nite, and how to reduce the dof to 2 there,a nd if there was enough speed and force, etc 15:46 < fenn> if it's below the limit at any point, you can't lift it 15:46 < katsmeow-afk> but fenn, the basic vector is up, and the resistance is gravity 15:47 < kanzure> fenn: where did that graph magically come from? 15:47 < fenn> even if you could pick up an engine off the ground, it's not guaranteed you can pull it out of a car 15:47 < katsmeow-afk> granted, there's limits in the human structure, but not in a exosuit designed to overcome those limits 15:47 < fenn> kanzure: i think it was a mother earth news article about building stone fences 15:47 < kanzure> nice 15:48 < kanzure> The strength of the lifting action in man 15:48 < kanzure> RJ Whitney - Ergonomics, 1958 - Taylor & Francis 15:48 < kanzure> http://scholar.google.com/scholar?num=100&hl=en&lr=&cites=8240296299011411047 15:48 < kanzure> "The anthropometry of the manual work space for the seated subject " 15:48 < kanzure> huh 15:48 < kanzure> "Toward a quantitative definition of manual lifting postures " 15:48 < kanzure> "This article reviews the empirical and theoretical bases for recommendations 15:48 < katsmeow-afk> new olympics game: seated engine lifting 15:48 < kanzure> regarding lifting technique" 15:48 < kanzure> YES 15:48 * kanzure fails 15:49 < kanzure> "Representing and identifying alternative movement techniques for goal-directed manual tasks" 15:49 < kanzure> "The stability provided by the feet during manoeuvres whilst standing" 15:49 < kanzure> I'm glad there are people that have actually thought about this 15:49 < fenn> i bet their models suck balls 15:49 < katsmeow-afk> that usa business efficency expert that wrote and lectured in the 1950's used data like that, the Japanese ate it up 15:50 < fenn> taylor and gilbreth? 15:50 < katsmeow-afk> fenn, doesn't sound right 15:50 < fenn> gilbreths 15:50 < kanzure> "joint contribution vector" (JCV) 15:50 < kanzure> "this study introduces a quantitative index termed joint contribution vector (JCV) representing a motion in terms of contributions of individual joint degrees-of-freedom to the achievement of the task goal" 15:50 < katsmeow-afk> he was derided in the usa 15:50 < kanzure> oh, it's motion capture data 15:50 < kanzure> blah 15:51 < kanzure> "the JCV and statistical clustering methods enable automated motion classification to uncover a taxonomy of alternative movement techniques." 15:51 < kanzure> yep, sucks balls 15:51 < katsmeow-afk> he preached kenematics and just-in-time delivery etc etc 15:51 < fenn> seems to work for the japanese 15:51 < fenn> JIT i mean 15:51 < katsmeow-afk> i agree, to a point, the usa system isn't/wasn't set up for it 15:52 < kanzure> "Fig. 1. five-segment five-angle kinematic chain representing the human body" 15:52 < kanzure> er. 15:52 < kanzure> is that legit? 15:52 < katsmeow-afk> ordering a million widgets *now* to get bulk price beats ordering 10k widgets a month JIT in the usa financial model 15:52 < fenn> probably easier to deal with than this; http://www.cg.tuwien.ac.at/hostings/cescg/CESCG-2000/RFilkorn/Image15.gif 15:53 < kanzure> interesting, they did k-means analysis of the clustering of motion 15:53 < fenn> oh, fascinating 15:53 < katsmeow-afk> but the usa scheme is hard on factories and people 15:53 < katsmeow-afk> anyhoo, i gotta go, bbl 15:54 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/books/papers/Representing%20and%20identifying%20alternative%20movement%20techniques%20for%20goal-directed%20manual%20tasks.pdf 15:55 < kanzure> " 15:55 < kanzure> Identification of alternative movement techniques during the car entering movement" 15:55 < kanzure> " 15:55 < kanzure> WITHDRAWN: Obesity does not reduce maximum acceptable weights of lift" 15:56 < kanzure> huh? How did the idea of "JCV" get "Devender Singh" a masters of sciences in Industrial Engineering? 15:56 < kanzure> it's as if these people figure out how to write a formula and are given a masters degree 15:56 < kanzure> what kind of crap is this? 15:57 < fenn> it's bullshit, and it fuels the american economy 15:58 < fenn> you know, all this stuff might as well not exist if they aren't going to make the code freely available 15:58 < fenn> that's how i see things anyway 15:58 < kanzure> right 15:59 < kanzure> yet-another-thesis-that-bryan-gets-to-reverse-engineer (a.k.a. repeat) 15:59 < kanzure> " 15:59 < kanzure> The axial torque of the lumbar back muscles: torsion strength of the back muscles" 16:00 < kanzure> this probably is going to lead me back to FEM of human bones and muscles 16:00 < kanzure> is there a way to avoid that? 16:00 < fenn> this looks fairly relevant http://ralyx.inrialpes.fr/2006/Raweb/bunraku/uid63.html 16:01 < fenn> yes, you can set the desired level of abstraction to whatever you want 16:01 < fenn> so you can model bones as one element, with a perfect hinge joint for example 16:02 < kanzure> we don't need to max out the human model obviously, just have reasonable limits and so on 16:02 < kanzure> after all, "simple machines" are supposed to help when you start reaching human maximums 16:03 < kanzure> a lot of these studies seem to be on degrees of freedom (which is fine), though not maximum limits on strength exerted on any of those DOFs 16:03 < kanzure> as you said, you might be able to lift it, but with your arms stretched out, reaching into a car's front hood, you might not be able to lift an engine block 16:03 < fenn> right 16:03 < fenn> OROCOS describes this as 'wrench space' 16:04 < kanzure> from ut? 16:04 < kanzure> ah yeah 16:04 < fenn> kleuven.be 16:04 < kanzure> different standing stances (like they teach in martial arts) allow for different postures and different lifting or manipulation 16:05 < kanzure> although that might be an issue of balance rather than force exertion 16:05 < kanzure> balance/center-of-mass 16:05 < fenn> standing up is force exertion 16:05 < fenn> lots of martial arts is about dynamics 16:05 < fenn> but i think we can get away with simple static analysis 16:05 < kanzure> (yay) 16:06 < fenn> of course i'd like the simulators to be as accurate as possible, but better to error on the side of possibility 16:06 < kanzure> aha, found something 16:07 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/books/papers/A%20Dynamic%20Biomechanical%20Evaluation%20of%20Lifting%20Maximum%20Acceptable%20Loads.pdf 16:07 < kanzure> can't read it, but otherwise looks like it has an actually clear diagram (gasp) 16:08 < fenn> oh look, a pdf 16:08 < fenn> you mean i get to reverse engineer what these briliant scientists have done? and then i get to write a complex math-intensive program? wow! 16:08 < kanzure> how fun! 16:08 < kanzure> bleh 16:10 < fenn> i know this software exists as open source version in some form 16:10 < fenn> just have to find it 16:11 < kanzure> "Development of computerized human static strength simulation model for job design " 16:11 < kanzure> maybe opensim has something 16:12 < kanzure> erm, nevermind 16:12 < fenn> isnt opensim a virtual avatar thingy like SL? 16:13 < kanzure> yes 16:13 < kanzure> https://simtk.org/xml/about.xml 16:14 < kanzure> https://simtk.org/search/?type_of_search=soft&words=force&Search=+Go+ 16:14 < kanzure> https://simtk.org/home/opensim 16:14 < fenn> well, ok, but what does it do 16:15 < fenn> yarrgh 16:15 < fenn> must create accounts to look at tutorials? 16:16 < fenn> i bet 'freely available' means "you can download it" 16:17 < fenn> This project uses Simtk's subversion code repository, but has restricted access to project members. 16:18 -!- wrldpc [n=worldpea@pool-173-48-214-204.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 16:20 < kanzure> see this: https://simtk.org/docman/view.php/91/1022/OpenSim_UsersGuide.1.01.pdf 16:20 < kanzure> heh 16:20 < kanzure> that pdf seems to say that forces are included in the model (search for 'forces') 16:20 < kanzure> the last few chapters talk about the file formats involved 16:22 < kanzure> I wouldn't mind seeing an FEA analysis of a weight lifter doing a bench press or something. 16:22 < fenn> that's super duper detailed 16:22 < kanzure> or of goku 16:24 < fenn> i think the kinematics would break upon transforming into a were-monkey 16:26 < fenn> i dont really get the high resolution skeleton 16:31 < fenn> bah. konqueror crash 16:31 < fenn> i think that's my cue to do something else 16:38 < kanzure> bah why is this information so hard to find 16:53 -!- PeerInfinity [i=PeerInfi@stnbmb01bbp-ac10-31-63.dial.mts.net] has quit [] 17:28 < katsmeow-afk> because people want to make animation from it, ergo it's proprietary 17:29 < katsmeow-afk> that company that makes PBS sience kid anime has used that to jump into animated commercials 18:12 -!- cis-action [n=cis-acti@146-115-127-170.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 19:37 -!- xp_prg [n=xp_prg3@mf00f36d0.tmodns.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 21:16 -!- UtopiahG1ML [n=libre@rps7452.ovh.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 21:20 -!- Netsplit calvino.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: UtopiahGHML, xp_prg 21:20 -!- Netsplit over, joins: xp_prg 21:24 -!- UtopiahGHML [n=libre@rps7452.ovh.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 21:25 -!- UtopiahGHML [n=libre@rps7452.ovh.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 21:25 -!- genehacker [n=chatzill@65.210.212.162] has joined #hplusroadmap 21:32 -!- Netsplit calvino.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: faceface, chizu, myelinzar, fenn, drazak, katsmeow-afk, oublei, cis-action, tarbo2, boogles 21:32 -!- Netsplit over, joins: tarbo2, fenn, cis-action, katsmeow-afk, oublei, drazak, faceface, myelinzar, chizu, boogles 21:33 -!- Netsplit calvino.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: faceface, myelinzar, fenn, katsmeow-afk, oublei, cis-action 21:34 -!- drazak_ [n=drazak@drazak.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 21:34 -!- Netsplit over, joins: cis-action, fenn, katsmeow-afk, oublei, faceface, myelinzar 21:35 -!- Netsplit calvino.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: boogles, chizu, drazak, tarbo2 21:35 -!- chizu_ [n=chizu@ash.osuosl.org] has joined #hplusroadmap 21:41 -!- boogles [n=boogles@osuosl/staff/Boogles] has joined #hplusroadmap 21:41 -!- xp_prg [n=xp_prg3@mf00f36d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:42 -!- drazak [n=drazak@216.66.9.185] has joined #hplusroadmap 21:42 -!- tarbo2 [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #hplusroadmap 21:42 -!- chizu [n=chizu@osuosl/staff/chizu] has joined #hplusroadmap 21:42 -!- drazak [n=drazak@216.66.9.185] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 21:43 -!- tarbo2 [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 21:47 -!- drazak_ is now known as drazak 21:48 -!- genehacker [n=chatzill@65.210.212.162] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:53 -!- Netsplit calvino.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: davidsjo, bkero 21:53 -!- chizu [n=chizu@osuosl/staff/chizu] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 21:56 -!- bkero [n=bkero@osuosl/staff/bkero] has joined #hplusroadmap 21:56 -!- davidsjo [n=davidsjo@ash.osuosl.org] has joined #hplusroadmap 21:57 < bkero> The internet is falling apart at the seams. 21:59 < fenn> bkero: you're a python wizard right? 21:59 < fenn> how do put a reference to an object in a dict? 22:00 < fenn> such that i can then get the object out of the dict and assign something to it 22:03 < bkero> a = socket.socket(); b = dict(); b[1] = a 22:09 < fenn> that just assigns the value of socket to b[1] 22:10 < fenn> at least it does when a is a number type 22:11 < fenn> >>> b[1]=foo.bar.x 22:11 < fenn> >>> b 22:11 < fenn> {1: 20} 22:12 -!- tarbo2 [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #hplusroadmap 22:15 < fenn> this would be really easy in C 22:40 < kanzure> hm. so I found something that described exactly what we were looking for 22:41 < kanzure> then emil stopped by and I booted into Windows to watch Slumdog Millionaire, and now I don't know what paper it was 22:53 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/books/papers/Calculation%20and%20visualization%20of%20the%20dynamic%20ability%20of%20the%20human%20body.pdf 23:03 < kanzure> (that's it) 23:08 < kanzure> hrm, this is going to produce weird results like "of course the human can do it ... by swaying the hips in tune to the mambo dance!" 23:13 < fenn> we can only hope 23:14 < kanzure> I don't know if that would be a good thing or not 23:20 < kanzure> what type of model am I actually looking for? I think I want some sort of fancy n-dimensional volume where I could query whether or not some trajectory can be performed in a single motion 23:20 < kanzure> or something 23:20 < kanzure> and it would check whether or not that amount of force (equivalent to some weight) can be exerted in the direction of that trajectory, given that required motion 23:20 < kanzure> this sucks 23:21 < fenn> yep, sounds about right 23:21 < fenn> and an inverse kinematics solver (or is it forward? i always get confused) 23:21 < fenn> so you can find the minimum energy path 23:21 < kanzure> I found one of those that provided pseudocode and nice animations in a phd thesis paper 23:22 < fenn> this is too much to write 23:22 < fenn> we'd have to use an existing framework like orocos supposedly provides 23:22 < kanzure> (also, I can't find this, but it sounds nice: "Development of a Female Atlas of Strengths") 23:22 < fenn> Atlas of Strengths? sounds like an item from an RPG 23:23 < kanzure> was for the military :) 23:23 < kanzure> ah, here's that thesis: "Interactive reach planning for animated characters using hardware acceleration" (Liu, Y.) 23:23 < fenn> hm 23:26 < kanzure> an easy way to do this would be to have the reach/grasp points encoded in the PCR protocol itself 23:27 < kanzure> or encoded in the knowledge of what a test tube is 23:27 < kanzure> erm, I was going somewhere with that 23:27 < kanzure> something about exporting all of the effort somewhere else 23:27 < kanzure> *to somewhere else 23:27 < fenn> some objects have natural grasp points 23:28 < fenn> 'handles' they call them 23:28 < kanzure> you mean "breakpoints"? :-/ 23:29 < kanzure> I find it weird that this doesn't exist yet 23:29 * fenn eventually filed that paper under computers/cadcam/constraint-solving/ 23:30 < kanzure> which of the three? 23:30 < fenn> it's a hierarchy 23:30 < kanzure> of the three papers.. 23:30 < fenn> Calculation and visualization of the dynamic ability of the human body 23:30 < kanzure> this is like the one time that I've got an exact match of something in the literature compared to something I was vaguely thinking of 23:31 < kanzure> enjoy it while it lasts. 23:32 < kanzure> it would be easier though if I could just make up a reasonable approximation of something less than what I am capable of doing 23:32 < kanzure> a "doll model" as I was originally thinking. 23:33 < kanzure> oh wait. 23:33 < kanzure> hrm, it has to be n-dimensional with "all possible variations on joint positions for those DOFs and all calculations performed on them" so that you can do something like lifting from awkward postures 23:33 < kanzure> blah. why can't we just do this in the opposite way and reduce all motions to "simple machines" ? 23:34 < kanzure> too heavy? add a few hundred circular thingies that string can be pulled around 23:34 < kanzure> erm, pullies. 23:38 < fenn> simple machines like robots with only 6 degrees of freedom? :P 23:39 < fenn> you run into a lot of the same problems, that's why 23:42 < fenn> how dare they charge for phd theses! 23:47 < fenn> aha http://cg.cis.upenn.edu/hms/research/archive/NASA/LiuThesis.pdf 23:48 < fenn> now to ferret it away in the bowels of the hard drive never to be looked at again