--- Day changed Wed Apr 15 2009
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02:48 < faceface> can you simulate physical systems in cad like in garrysmod?
02:49 < faceface> I remember you guys talking about things on this topic, so I guess the answer is yes, I'm just wondering how quickly you can build physically realistic 'stuff' using things like pythonOCC
02:49 < faceface> and how much more physically realistic it is compared to garrys mod (where there are no gyroscopic effects for example).
03:13 < genehacker> yes faceface
03:14 < genehacker> I believe garry's mod does simulate gyroscopic effects
03:16 < genehacker> just rigid body kinematics
03:17 < genehacker> IE what I'm having a test over
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07:48 < kanzure> http://www.sci-mate.org//
07:48 < kanzure> what?
07:49 < kanzure> http://www.sci-mate.org/forum/index.php?topic=22.new#new
07:49 < kanzure> I don't understand why this is novel
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08:53 < kanzure> uh oh, don't know who to send this email to. there's a certain set of people that I know that expect to be updated when I have something exciting happen, like an interview, except I don't know the bounds of this set any more since it's so large
09:12 < kanzure> what's all this about surface plasmon-enhanced stuff?
10:18 < myelinza1> now that I think about it, zotero is somewhat like my firefox extension that I wrote in 2007 to enable numberpad-scoping of google search results with an autoscroll feature
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11:32 < faceface> kanzure: actually I wanted to set something like scimate up
11:32 < faceface> called 'biobuddy'
11:32 < faceface> in bioinformatics there is a specific bottleneck between biologists and informaticians
11:33 < faceface> often biologists need some very simple informatics, and informatics need some very simple bio
11:33 < faceface> the idea was to partner bio ppl with data with info ppl with algs.
11:33 < faceface> each buddy would result in a pub.
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12:31 < kanzure> faceface: that's neat. why would it result in a publication though? says who?
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12:46 < fenn> because the result of anything at all in academia is a paper
12:46  * kanzure turns into a paper
12:46 < fenn> it's like a blog... with references, and a paywall
12:46 < kanzure> fenn: should I try to pick a date for you, me and jonathan cline to meet up?
12:47 < kanzure> I really think it would be better if he figured out how to use irc
12:47 < kanzure> but that doesn't seem to be the case so far..
12:47 < fenn> i mailed him yesterday about meeting; he said he'd be on campus today 1-6
12:47 < kanzure> oh
12:47 < kanzure> well then. 
12:47 < fenn> i said something like 'um, parking, wah! call me i guess'
12:48 < kanzure> there's a small parking lot on the south wall of my building
12:48 < kanzure> you can sometimes get away with parking there if it's not a busy day
12:54 < kanzure> using this: http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/gears/CADgears2/gears.py can you make multiple objects display on the screen? even without the file reading stuff. I seem to be unable to display multiple objects read from a file, and I've been using every debugging trick in the book (passing fake data, using constants instead of reading, etc.)
12:55  * fenn grumbles about yet another script named 'gears.py'
12:55 < kanzure> you better not look at the code.
12:55 < kanzure> it's hideous :(
12:55 < fenn> too late
12:55 < kanzure> *explosions*
12:57 < fenn> int(float())?
12:57 < fenn> you can use a relative path for visualizerOutput.txt
12:58 < fenn> why isnt this in a git repo
12:58 < kanzure> try this one: http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/gears/CADgears2/gears_20090415.py (fixes the stupid int(float()))
12:58 < kanzure> because my git repos always fail
12:58 < fenn> am i supposed to open this from InteractiveViewer?
12:58 < kanzure> yes
12:59 < kanzure> there's an "execute script" option under the 'File' menu
12:59 < fenn> do you have to do  export CSF_GraphicShr=''  to run InteractiveViewer?
13:00  * kanzure nods
13:00 < kanzure> but you have to set the value.
13:00 < fenn> ok i see some super mario coins
13:00 < kanzure> oh really? how many?
13:00 < fenn> five
13:00 < kanzure> hrm.
13:00 < kanzure> did you do anything to fix it?
13:00 < kanzure> are you using gears_20090415.py ?
13:01 < fenn> and i think there was a rod/cylinder but it disappeared when i rotated
13:01 < kanzure> you probably just visually lost track of it
13:01 < kanzure> ok, /me goes back to the older version to see what's up
13:01 < kanzure> gee, you know, version control would be great here
13:01 < kanzure> oh wait
13:01  * kanzure hunts down the old git notes
13:01 < fenn> no it wasnt a rod, just one of the disks on-end
13:02 < fenn> i have to exit InteractiveViewer to reload it
13:02 < kanzure> supposedly display.EraseAll() should do the trick
13:02 < kanzure> but it never works for me.
13:03 < fenn> i didnt do anything but download visualizerOutput.txt and change the path in the file
13:03 < fenn> didnt download _20090415
13:03 < kanzure> ok, don't bother
13:06 < kanzure> aw. InteractiveViewer crashes upon trying to load that script over here. how did I write it then?
13:06 < kanzure> or, erm, use it before
13:06 < kanzure> oh, it's because the path is relative
13:08 < fenn> it's kind of annoying that python doesn't give you a linenumber mechanism along with the readline() method
13:08 < kanzure> yay display.EraseAll() works now
13:10 < fenn> instead of print "foo" + str(i) + "bar"
13:10 < fenn> print "foo", i, "bar"
13:10 < kanzure> huh. makes sense. I was trying first print "foo" + i
13:11 < kanzure> but + would be the + operator for integers
13:12 < fenn> also i think it's worth defining a Gear object before stuffing all the values into opencascade
13:12 < kanzure> I had that in my glxgears.py thingy. so yeah I'll go back to that soon.
13:12 < fenn> unless you're really comfortable with pythonOCC introspection
13:12 < kanzure> nope
13:12 < fenn> didnt think so
13:12 < fenn> oh, another trick for string formatting is like printf
13:13 < kanzure> I know about printf :)
13:13 < kanzure> I told you this code was bad.
13:13 < fenn> print "foo %i bar" % i
13:13 < fenn> ok
13:13 < fenn> er, %s
13:13 < fenn> %d dammit
13:13 < kanzure> %d 
13:13 < fenn> just try every letter until you get it
13:13 < kanzure> :(
13:13 < fenn> sprinkle numbers and decimal points for added effect
13:13 < kanzure> meta-script
13:14 < fenn> hey that's what unit tests are for right :P
13:14 < kanzure> eval() and then arrayofvals = range('a','z')
13:14 < kanzure> (who needs documentation)
13:14 < fenn> actually since it's a string you could do it in normal code (no eval)
13:14 < kanzure> ok, so just assemble \%'s
13:15 < fenn> last night i was working on getting a simple parallel port avr programmer going
13:16 < kanzure> now that display.EraseAll() works, I can make the script a method and just reload it instead of continuously loading a path to the script etc. it's nice when things work.
13:16 < fenn> no matter what i did, nothing worked
13:16 < kanzure> what is the programmer made out of? is this one of the makeshift "plug in some resistors and transistors and hope it works" ?
13:16 < fenn> then at the very end, on a whim i tried the usbtiny programmer i had made earlier which isnt supposed to work on old USB port
13:16 < fenn> and miraculously it works
13:16 < fenn> so now i'm really confused
13:16 < fenn> yeah resistors
13:17 < fenn> i also have a buffered programmer someone made for me a long time ago, but i might have broken it (that's why i was building the simple resistor one)
13:17 < fenn> anyway i can't get a sensible result from the parport
13:17 < fenn> voltages all over the place and i can't seem to get it to change the pin i want
13:18 < fenn> but it changes other pins
13:18 < kanzure> what? pin changing? of the parallel port pins?
13:18 < fenn> maybe i'm looking at the connector wrong?
13:18 < fenn> change of pin state, from on to off
13:19 < fenn> so i'm glad the usbtiny programmer works but i can only find one of them (i know i stole one back from IU robo club before I left)
13:19 < fenn> oh maybe it's in this tub here (usb gadgets)
13:20 < fenn> ah good there it is
13:20 < fenn> now to see if it works
13:21 < fenn> whoever came up with standard A and B connectors is an idiot
13:22 < fenn> oh, right i have to program the programmer first :)
13:22 < kanzure> "I am program, programmer, and that which is programmed."
13:23 < fenn> I AM USBTINY
13:24 < kanzure> treadwell is trying to convince me that the tiny DLP/DMD chip thingies are what I need
13:24 < kanzure> but these things are still expensive..
13:24 < fenn> are they? i dont know where to actually buy them
13:24 < fenn> nor have i ever actually seen a unit price
13:24 < fenn> you would assume TI would sell them on digikey
13:29 < fenn> all these people talking about <$0.01 RFID tags but i cant find them for <$1
13:31 < kanzure> volume?
13:32 < kanzure> volume unit discounts
13:32 < fenn> $0.50 in qty 5000
13:33 < fenn> maybe that really is the best so far
13:33 < fenn> i just have a hard time believing they'd put a $0.50 RFID tag in just about anything you buy at a retail store
13:37 < fenn> hm printed tags only came out in february 2009? wtf
13:37 < fenn> maybe the little sticker thingies are just resonant circuits, not really RFID
13:41 < kanzure> wtfwtfwtf
13:41 < kanzure> times a million
13:41 < kanzure> http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G15426
13:41 < kanzure> "
13:41 < kanzure> This small size MEMs (Micro Electro Mechanical Systems) assembly made for a blinding output video projection unit. Consists of a .76" x .62" assembly which contains over a million mirrors mounted to a flexible PC cable with tiny gold fingers. Each mirror represents one pixel. We have no info on these however, these were rejected by QC for slight imperfections or scratches. Sold "AS IS" only- No returns. The original cost of these was over $100 each! G15426"
13:41 < kanzure> $23
13:41 < kanzure> erm, $3
13:42 < fenn> yeah good luck interfacing to it
13:42 < kanzure> what's that port interface? is that some standard that I already know?
13:42 < kanzure> heh
13:42 < fenn> i have a bunch of them already; havent we been over this?
13:43 < kanzure> oh, I thought you said you didn't know how to acquire them?
13:43 < fenn> well, ok, perhaps that wasn't 100% perfect way to say it
13:43 < kanzure> "I don't know where to actually but them"
13:44 < fenn> i dont know where to buy them with documentation on how to use it
13:44 < fenn> just finding some datasheets could help in figuring out the interface to these $3 chips tho
13:45 < fenn> i have no idea if there is any standard interface or what
13:45 < kanzure> emil and I are doing a 9 pm monsters-vs-aliens movie. 
13:45 < kanzure> at the imax down the street
13:46 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/gears/CADgears2/2009-04-15.png
13:46 < kanzure> guess something must be going right
14:05 < kanzure> "Docs? We're talking Electronic Goldmine here, Bryan!
14:05 < kanzure> I've not run across any yet on Google. Perhaps we could throw this out to the Robot Group?
14:05 < kanzure> As we don't need to create video, we might be able to bootstrap the documentation ourselves. How hard could it be? Let's see...64 pins, 2 states each = 1.8E19 possibilities. You and I could split the job between us, leaving only 9E18 possibilities each."
14:08 < fenn> there's only 25 and i can guess what 4 of them are (power, ground)
14:09 < fenn> this is what they actually look like http://imagebin.org/45615
14:10 < kanzure> hm
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14:11 < kanzure> Hi branstrom.
14:11 < branstrom> Hi kanzure!
14:11 < kanzure> who be?
14:12 < branstrom> Found this channel through WTA - transhumanism.se - http://www.biopunk.org/swedish-transhumanists-t78.html
14:12 < kanzure> Ah, that's unfortunate. I was hoping you were someone else who I just asked to join the channel. :)
14:12 < kanzure> Anyway, welcome.
14:13 < kanzure> we're currently complaining about the lack of DMD documentation
14:13 < kanzure> care to join us?
14:13 < branstrom> I think maybe transhumanism.se should be separated from biopunk.org?
14:13 < branstrom> DMD means what?
14:13 < kanzure> digital mirror device. It's a micromechanical mirror array.
14:13 < fenn> super high resolution in a chip
14:13 < branstrom> Uh, go ahead, I'll listen in...
14:14 < fenn> they are used in digital projectors
14:14 < kanzure> transhumanism.se used to be aleph.se, ran by Anders Sandberg
14:14 < kanzure> but now Anders is some silly philosopher at Oxford
14:14 < fenn> it's long been an idea of mine to turn one into a head mounted display
14:16 < fenn> wtf is a biopunk
14:16 < branstrom> Someone should take hold of it. I could design a static site or a blog
14:17 < branstrom> I'm sure there are people who would help raise it into some remote part of the collective consciousness
14:18 < fenn> branstrom: the more generic and all encompassing you make your organization, the more people will get upset when it turns out not to be what they first imagined
14:18 < fenn> see for example 'world transhumanist association'
14:19 < fenn> 'swedish transhumanist association' is only one step down
14:19 < branstrom> It's pretty narrow already, don't you think?
14:19 < fenn> most transhumanists are highly individualistic and don't like people speaking in their place
14:20 < fenn> especially a do-nothing media-hog organization
14:21 < fenn> especially when all they ever talk about is ethics and laws, things that won't exist in a transhumanist context anyway
14:21 < fenn> but whatever, it's just a domain name
14:21 < branstrom> Hmm, true, but so are humanists, and they're on the rise. As long as you can agree on some principles, I think there's a fair chance you can accomplish something. In addition to being individualistic, I think we also like to be activists?
14:22 < branstrom> And activists have everything to gain by working together toward some common goal...
14:22 < fenn> i don't know what 'activist' means anymore
14:22 < fenn> running around in the street throwing tear gas canisters at riot cops? is that an activist?
14:22 < fenn> writing snarky comments to slashdot, activist?
14:23 < fenn> working on boring but potentially liberating technology; activist?
14:23 < branstrom> Are you so sure we won't have ethics and laws once the ball starts rolling? Maybe they'll just be incredibly more complex?
14:23 < fenn> doing said work at evil corporation/government institution X?
14:24 < fenn> branstrom: of course ethics will still be around; but it's stupid to try to predict what people will be worried about (hint: history has shown that it was never what people predicted)
14:26 < branstrom> People who want to help the technological revolution come sooner rather than later, and want to bring discussion of all the aspects of it out into the public consciousness in some way, that's an activist in this context, I think
14:26 < fenn> most important is to fix many small, easily solveable problems, not worry about grand philosophical dilemmas
14:26 < fenn> little things like, you know, not dying
14:27 < kanzure> why is it that people that think promoting discussion is so noble?
14:27 < branstrom> Except if you focus too much on the “little“ things, maybe the grand stuff floats out of your control and just evolves mindlessly, and we don't want that, do we?
14:27 < kanzure> anyoen worth their salt is already discussing it
14:28 < kanzure> branstrom: if you want to help make transhuman projects a reality, give me a fabrication facility
14:28 < kanzure> not a discussion place
14:28 < fenn> i'm tired of discussion, and i suspect anyone who's been aware of the subject for longer than i have, is also tired of discussion
14:29 < fenn> maybe i'm just tired
14:29 < branstrom> Hm.
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14:30 < branstrom> So what would you do if you had... fabrication facilities?
14:30 < fenn> kanzure: were there usenet groups about these topics in the 80's?
14:31 < kanzure> fenn: there were mailing lists, but yes
14:31 < kanzure> extropy-chat goes back to the 80s, it's where everyone cool used to hang out
14:31 < kanzure> now they're just old farts who don't do anything
14:31 < kanzure> anders, eli, ray, etc.
14:31 < fenn> futurists
14:31 < fenn> not doers
14:31 < branstrom> Just increase everyone's intelligence to make them see the issues more clearly? :)
14:31 < kanzure> wtf is intelligence?
14:31 < fenn> dirty word
14:32 < fenn> just increase everyone's godliness
14:32 < kanzure> nonsense word
14:32 < branstrom> Have you read On Intelligence?
14:32 < kanzure> yes
14:33 < branstrom> Okay.
14:33 < branstrom> Still not clear on what it is?
14:34 < kanzure> he just wrote a bunch of little artificial neural networks
14:34 < kanzure> and came up with some silly HTM theory, which while nice, isn't about intelligence
14:35 < fenn> but kanzure, it's a magic bullet!
14:35 < fenn> it must be the one answer we've always been looking for
14:35 < kanzure> oh really?
14:35 < kanzure> okay branstrom solve all my problems
14:35 < fenn> obviously, because the universe arranges itself around simple elegant mathematical laws
14:35 < branstrom> I have to say I find it increasingly convincing... Read it this autumn
14:35 < kanzure> convincing of what?
14:36 < branstrom> Of course the theory isn't perfect, but no scientific theory starts out with all the pieces put together. It's an incremental process. I think this is a solid theory to start from.
14:37 < kanzure> theory of what?
14:37 < branstrom> And they've got it working, haven't they?
14:37 < branstrom> Intelligence.
14:37 < kanzure> you can't have a theory when you don't define what you're talking about
14:37 < fenn> "It is the ability to make predictions about the future that is the crux of intelligence." is his definition of intelligence
14:37 < kanzure> oh please
14:37 < kanzure> by that standard, if I make something that combinatorially generates text files of all possible sentences, I'll have the smartest thingy in the universe
14:38 < fenn> of course there are numerous counterexamples: music, interpersonal relationships, pattern recognition, abstraction
14:38  * kanzure goes back to his programming
14:39 < fenn> goal-seeking is something we're futzing with right now
14:39 < branstrom> I don't think you've tried to understand it.
14:39 < fenn> running a zillion simulations won't help find the path to the goal
14:39 < fenn> branstrom: you're right; i've had all of 7 minutes to read about it
14:40 < kanzure> branstrom: I don't think you know what I'm saying either.
14:40 < fenn> but i can tell you right now that anyone who tries to squeeze "intelligence" into a tiny little box is going to fail
14:40 < kanzure> what I'm saying is that "intelligence" is a buzzword and it doesn't actually exist- no matter how godly people try to describe themselves
14:41 < branstrom> What godly people? What do you mean by that word? How do they try to describe themselves?
14:41 < kanzure> they say "people are intelligent"
14:41 < kanzure> or "this person is intelligent"
14:41 < branstrom> And what's a “tiny little box“?
14:41 < kanzure> conceptualization
14:42 < branstrom> So what are you saying, that we can't have a unifying theory of intelligence?
14:42 < kanzure> exactly! because it's bogus!
14:42 < branstrom> Please use proper argumentation.
14:43 < kanzure> you can't have a "unifying theory" of something that doesn't exist.
14:43 < fenn> there's no logical proof for the existence/non-existence of intelligence
14:43 < branstrom> So intelligence doesn't exist? But you and me, we're intelligent, no?
14:43 < kanzure> we're what?
14:44 < fenn> what a semantic clusterfuck
14:44 < branstrom> We understand the world around us, don't we? We can make predictions and we possess abstract knowledge about the goings-on in the complex world that we live in?
14:45 < branstrom> Did you really read his book, or did you just read the back cover?
14:45 < kanzure> I read his book.
14:45 < kanzure> I don't see what any of that has to do with whether or not "intelligence" is a true thing.
14:45 < branstrom> Why would we not be intelligent? I don't get it.
14:46 < fenn> hm why don't i have this book yet, do either of you have a pdf?
14:46 < kanzure> yes, one moment. it's somewhere. /me digs
14:46 < branstrom> fenn: I put a torrent on mininova.org last year
14:46 < branstrom> http://www.mininova.org/tor/1625824
14:47 < kanzure> hm, nope, don't have it on the server
14:47 < kanzure> anyway
14:47 < branstrom> Audiobook + PDF.
14:47 < kanzure> it's actually not worth it, the wikipedia article is a good summary of the arguments
14:47 < branstrom> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory-prediction_framework This one? Okay...
14:48 < kanzure> I honestly don't see why you had to change the conversation from "intelligence" to "understanding" and "predictions" etc. etc.
14:48 < kanzure> you're just changing the terminology..
14:48 < branstrom> Well, please explain your frustration in better detail.
14:48 < kanzure> what?
14:48 < kanzure> you're the one who believes in this magical thingy called "intelligence" :p
14:49 < kanzure> that's why I said "we're what?"
14:49 < kanzure> because you were essentially saying "we're magical"
14:49 < kanzure> and I completely disagree
14:49 < branstrom> I haven't called it magical
14:49 < kanzure> you said "we're intelligent, aren't we?"
14:49 < branstrom> Magic implies undecipherable mystery, which is far from what I mean
14:50 < kanzure> then why do you use the word "intelligence" ?
14:50 < kanzure> or why do you believe in "intelligence" ?
14:50 < branstrom> What word should I use, then?
14:50 < kanzure> for what?
14:50 < branstrom> I don't think we've grown up in the same semantic climate... :)
14:50 < fenn> the point is there's no overarching concept that covers everything
14:50 < kanzure> "what word should I use, then?" what word .. "for what" use are you going to use the word?
14:52 < fenn> ugh.. "real intelligence" vs "artificial intelligence"
14:52 < branstrom> Look, every word is ripe with assumptions supplied by our culture and upbringing and so on
14:52 < kanzure> so what?
14:53 < kanzure> what I am wondering is "for what". you asked me a question: "which word should I use then?"
14:53 < branstrom> We can't really have a conversation if I have to define every word I use.
14:53 < kanzure> that's true
14:53 < kanzure> but it's not like that
14:53 < kanzure> maybe you're not talking about anything?
14:53 < fenn> can't you guys argue about eugenics or something
14:53 < kanzure> hah
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14:54 < branstrom> Do you guys watch Fringe?
14:54 < branstrom> :D
14:54 < kanzure> Walter Bishop is based off of me.
14:54 < kanzure> (I'm Bryan Bishop, the real life version of the character)
14:54 < branstrom> Oh! That's... disconcerting.
14:54 < kanzure> :p
14:55 < branstrom> And strangely erotic.
14:55 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Bishop_(Fringe)#Walter_Bishop
14:55 < branstrom> The intelligence conversation is making me tired, we'll continue tomorrow, kay?
14:57 < branstrom> Someone's maliciously edited out the reference to you as the true basis of the character ;)
14:57 < fenn> deletionists
14:57 < kanzure> the scum of the internet
14:57 < kanzure> you'll never find a more rechid hive of scum and vilany
14:58 < branstrom> Spelled “wretched“, fyi
14:58 < branstrom> Who are you guys, anyway?
14:58 < fenn> mad scientist, internet anomaly
14:58 < fenn> something like that
14:59 < branstrom> I'm 22, from Sweden, web programmer + designer. Soon to be Cognitive Science student.
14:59 < fenn> what sort of answer were you looking for?
14:59 < fenn> i'm 26 from indiana, USA, now in austin texas to set up a hacker space. soon to be playing with wearable computers
15:00 < kanzure> i'm 19, from austin texas, employed in a bajillion academic labs and a bajillion startups and am secretly an anomaly of the internet manifesting itself in the form of Ai
15:00 < kanzure> nice to meet you
15:00 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/
15:01  * fenn kicks fennetic.net
15:01 < fenn> not worth what i paid for it :D
15:01 < kanzure> you paid for it?
15:01 < fenn> no
15:01 < kanzure> ah I see
15:02 -!- elias` [n=me@cs78208074.pp.htv.fi] has joined #hplusroadmap
15:03 < fenn> mendeley resells your email to spammers
15:03 < fenn> oh wait, false alarm
15:03 < fenn> that was some other chem/bio thing i signed up as joe/blow
15:04 < branstrom> Nice to meet you guys, too.
15:04 < kanzure> joe blow? I know that guy.
15:04 < branstrom> Wow, you got a lot going on, kanzure. More than I have, anyhow.
15:05 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/chats/2009-04-14_SingularityHub_interview.html
15:05 < kanzure> that's a recent interview I did, maybe it will help understand what I'm up to?
15:05 < branstrom> Just a Rails programmer in the icier part of Sweden. Right near the edge of the wood. Real quiet. o_o
15:06 < kanzure> rails doesn't make you evil. quite the opposite.
15:08 < branstrom> Thanks, reading
15:10 < fenn> wow newegg sells rice cookers?
15:11 < fenn> you know a rice cooker would make a decent bio reactor
15:12 < fenn> assuming it were properly hacked for precise temperature control
15:16 < branstrom> kanzure: Have you written anything on the non-existence of intelligence, that might be illuminating to someone like me?
15:17 < branstrom> What about “abstraction“?
15:17 < branstrom> You don't think there's an over-arching algorithm to the sensory data processing taking place in our brains?
15:18 < fenn> no
15:18 < branstrom> I'm pretty much going into Cognitive Science because I'm fascinated by the possible consequences of Hawkins' theory.
15:19 < fenn> hence 'emotion' vs 'rational thought' vs 'intuition'
15:20 < branstrom> Hmm, what if I take back “brains“ and replace it with “neocortex“?
15:20 < fenn> argh motherfucking asshats
15:20 < fenn> Thanks for you interest in OpenWetWare! Unfortunately, we have a new policy regarding usernames where we ask you to give
15:20 < branstrom> fenn: alright
15:20 < fenn> your full (publication) names.  Please reapply for an account with your full name, and we'll be happy to process the
15:21 < fenn> account quickly.
15:24 < branstrom> fenn: what kind of wearable computers?
15:24 < fenn> the small and unobtrusive kind, with head mounted display and advanced input devices
15:25 < fenn> i.e. not a bar of soap with tiny screen and impossible buttons
15:26 < branstrom> Advanced input devices?
15:26 < branstrom> Still wearable, even though they're “advanced“?
15:26 < fenn> right now the plan is beagleboard, myvu crystal hacked apart to resemble a microoptical, 3D accelerometer, 2D gyro, GPS module, and finger mouse; will be researching eye trackers for look-and-blink interface
15:27 < branstrom> Beagleboard? Myvu?
15:27 < fenn> google
15:28 < branstrom> Yeah, yeah.
15:34 < kanzure> fenn: do you need me to rough up the OWW people?
15:34 < kanzure> an email I just received: "I am not a total n00b--to use the WoW-speak--when it comes to the world of biobacking, transhumanism, etc, but I really want to get into the community to learn more."
15:34 < kanzure> biobacking heh
15:36 < kanzure> how tall can you make a drop of water before it succumbs to gravity effects?
15:39  * fenn mumbles something about naked singularities
15:40 < fenn> call it 2mm
15:40 < fenn> it depends on the surface it's on
15:41 < kanzure> fenn: I'm answering the latest DIYbio post asking about ways to transfer genes into organisms.
15:42 < kanzure> so I'm trying to think of the right word for "take the DNA of the organism, splice in a gene through restriction cuts, then ligate it together and then use "
15:42 < kanzure> uh, and then use the method where you tap into a cell and inject new DNA with a physical giant pointy sharp thingy
15:42 < kanzure> somatic transfer?
15:42 < kanzure> have people done that?
15:43 < branstrom> If I'd have to blink every time I wanted to click, my cornea would probably get a lot of scratches?
15:43 < kanzure> does your cornea get scratched every time you blink?
15:44 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somatic_cell_nuclear_transfer
15:44 < kanzure> hrm. I don't think people have transferred genomic DNA with SCNT though
15:44 < branstrom> No, maybe it'd work. But wouldn't you get tired eventually?
15:45 < kanzure> branstrom: the mouse was a bad idea.
15:45 < kanzure> I don't like clicking.
15:45 < branstrom> Neither do I, but blinking would be marginally worse.
15:45 < branstrom> I think.
15:45 < kanzure> hum. dunno. at least you sometimes don't realize you're blinking?
15:45 < fenn> why arent there any 'green' notebook drives? this ought to be an obvious marketing gimmick
15:46 < branstrom> Why don't we jump straight to mind control?
15:46 < fenn> branstrom: the look-and-blink interface has a lot of unknowns and will probably change significantly
15:46 < fenn> branstrom: perhaps you should ask the KGB about that
15:47 < kanzure> fenn: gene transfer methods, go!
15:47 < branstrom> BCI, I mean...
15:47 < kanzure> retrovirus, plasmids, SCNT, 
15:47 < kanzure> anything else?
15:47 < kanzure> meiosis, mitosis, ..
15:47 < fenn> with two displays, one right, one left, you could only click on the right display if you wink with right eye, etc
15:48 < fenn> people dont generally wink on accident
15:49 < fenn> then you need two eye trackers though, which precludes a simple one-side attachment
15:49 < fenn> i was also considering a 'ear twitch detector'
15:50 < fenn> this would be easy to do, integrated with the glasses and well hidden, but it might get tiring after a while
15:50 -!- cis-action [n=cis-acti@adsl-76-235-67-52.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
15:50 < branstrom> A tongue movement detector thingie might work?
15:50 < fenn> no thanks
15:51 < fenn> there are other face muscles that could be used too
15:51 < fenn> i dont know their names though
15:52 < kanzure> SCNT isn't used as a gene vector?
15:55 -!- branstrom [n=branstro@c-be1ee055.438-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving..."]
16:02 < fenn> kanzure: do you want that drive back eventually?
16:03 < fenn> my mom is asking what i want for my birthday
16:04 < fenn> trying to reduce the number of if/and/or/else statements :)
16:12 < kanzure> fenn: no, you can have it
16:12 < kanzure> but I still think I'm being stupid by giving that to you instead of something with good stuff loaded on it
16:12 < kanzure> this would be a chance to reduce my SPOFiness
16:12 < fenn> yes
16:13 < fenn> i havent installed it yet
16:15 < kanzure> go ahead and use it for now. I have a few others.
16:15 < kanzure> I must be the laziest person on earth, you've been here for, what, two months? and I still haven't got around to this?
16:17 < kanzure> hey cis-action.
16:18 < kanzure> fenn: any ideas on coloring objects in pythonocc? I think it's the "Quantity" module from occ.
16:19 < kanzure> Quantity.Quantity_Color. but then I'm not sure how to set a color.
16:21 < cis-action> hey guys.
16:21 < fenn> there was an example of coloring
16:22 < kanzure> fenn: test_XDE.py .. but that's not what I want.
16:23 < kanzure> oh, display.DisplayColoredShape(wire.Wire(), 'RED')
16:23 < fenn> yeah
16:23 < kanzure> which of course isn't implemented blah
16:24 < fenn> it's not? i remember seeing screenshots
16:24 < kanzure> well, in BRepFeat_example.py it uses display.DisplayColoredShape(wire.Wire(), 'RED') but there's no display.DisplayColoredShape() in InteractiveViewer.py
16:24 < fenn> ./src/Display/OCCViewer.py:    def DisplayColoredShape(self,shape,color):
16:25 < kanzure> not found
16:25 < kanzure> wtf-age
16:25 < kanzure> is "svn up" supposed to work?
16:26 < kanzure> oh, svn up *
16:26 < fenn> OCC.Display.OCCViewer.Viewer3d.DisplayColoredShape
16:26 < kanzure> what am I supposed to do with that?
16:26 < fenn> hell if i know
16:27 < fenn> https://mail.gna.org/public/pythonocc-users/2009-03/msg00101.html
16:28 < fenn> er, i mean https://mail.gna.org/public/pythonocc-users/2009-03/msg00098.html
16:30 < kanzure> guess it's time for me to rebuild pythonocc
16:30 < kanzure> (though I don't know why)
16:33 < kanzure> ack
16:33 < kanzure> "here's a standard protocol for PCR <english braindump>" *wtf*
16:33 < kanzure> it hurts so much :(
16:34 < kanzure> why doesn't anybody understand
16:37 -!- splicer_ [n=patrik@h8n3c1o261.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #hplusroadmap
17:05 < kanzure> why hasn't anybody stolen the NCBI public domain genomes yet? 
17:05 < kanzure> see typical "wah, people will copyright or patent something you put into the public domain" arguments
17:05 < kanzure> then point to the public domain genomes
17:17 < fenn> because NCBI provides free hosting
17:27 -!- anthonyl [n=duzt@dsl093-216-054.aus1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
17:35 < kanzure> fenn: I don't think that's a reasonable retort.
17:36 < fenn> because everyone that wants genome data already knows about NCBI?
17:36 < fenn> answers.com succeeded (i guess) in 'stealing' wikipedia because they have good SEO
17:37 < fenn> you can't really advance a genome, so there's no 'embrace and extend' danger
17:38 < kanzure> huh? evolution?
17:39 < kanzure> hrm
17:39 < kanzure> I see. it's questionable what an "advancement" was
17:39 < fenn> er.. well, the whole concept of patenting a genome doesn't make sense anyway, so the logic is kinda broken
17:39 < kanzure> but if somebody hooked up a magical advancement super magic bullet machine to the genome repo at NCBI, then would they be concerned and take it down?
17:39 < kanzure> I guess.
17:39 < kanzure> it's just an interesting anomaly on the internet
17:40 < fenn> on another planet there might be a torrent of all genome data
17:40 < fenn> but this is earth, where people don't give a shit
17:40 < kanzure> is there any field that studies internet anomalies? astronomers study anomalies in space, but who studies internet anomalies?
17:40 < fenn> snopes?
17:40 < kanzure> heh
17:40 < kanzure> snopes: "nope, bryan isn't an ai. stop asking."
17:47 -!- PeerInfinity [n=someone@216.36.180.162] has joined #hplusroadmap
17:59 -!- drt [n=chatzill@cpe-70-112-223-97.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap
17:59 < kanzure> Hello drt.
17:59 < kanzure> yay, is that you david?
18:00 < drt> hello kanzure
18:00 < drt> yep it is i
18:00 < kanzure> fenn: treadwell is here
18:00 < kanzure> we can now proceed to take over the world
18:00 < fenn> yosh.
18:00 < kanzure> drt: earlier today we were complaining about the lack of documentation on DMD's.
18:00 < fenn> engage power to the plasmak cannons
18:01 < drt> kanzure, i've figured it out. if we each buy 4 of those MEMS devices and check a billion per second
18:01 < drt> we could finish in 30 years
18:02 < fenn> partly lack of documentation, partly simple lack of availability to 'normal people'
18:03 < fenn> if it's a component of a $500 projector it can't cost that much per unit
18:03 < drt> so buy one & take it apart
18:04 < fenn> that provides a source of reverse-engineering data, not documentation
18:04 < fenn> i'm concerned the chips they use will be power hogs
18:04 < fenn> not the DLP but the video interface stuff
18:04 < drt> if we just want the end result, we only need to hack the optics
18:05 < fenn> if you guys are doing DNA synthesis, that's much less demanding than wearable displays
18:06 < drt> fire teh lazorz @ the mems. the image part of the circuit doesn't need hacking
18:06 < fenn> so, $500 is ok for DNA synthesizer hardware?
18:07 -!- anthonyl [n=duzt@dsl093-216-054.aus1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
18:07 < kanzure> oh, he's right you know
18:07 < kanzure> it would be nice to be able to display images of course
18:07 < fenn> yeah i know
18:07 < kanzure> which is a good reason to just go with giant LCDs 
18:07 < kanzure> hrm
18:08 < fenn> you can display images on a DLP in a fairly straightforward way :)
18:08 < kanzure> if you have the documentation.
18:08 < fenn> if you have a whole projector you dont need documentation
18:08 < kanzure> wait, am I thinking of a DMD? or a DLP?
18:08 < kanzure> which one is the micromirror device?
18:08 < fenn> DLP is texas instrument's marketing for DMD's
18:10 < kanzure> which one has pixels for light generation?
18:10 < drt> how big do the pixels need to be?
18:10 < fenn> the smaller the better
18:10 < fenn> you'll run into diffraction soon enough
18:11 < drt> which means... a few microns, then? DVD lazor resolution?
18:11 < fenn> lasers won't fix it
18:12 < fenn> and we don't have cheap UV lasers anyway
18:12 < fenn> there's two optics problems: the size of the focusing lens, and the wavelength of light
18:12 < kanzure> drt: I haven't done the maths yet
18:12 < kanzure> but ideally, you need an array of something like 100x100
18:12 < kanzure> because you're building a strand of DNA at each spot
18:12 < kanzure> and so more => better
18:13 < fenn> 100x100 is pitifully small
18:13 < drt> so a BluRay lazer optic system would be better.
18:14 < drt> it's as good as we'll do for cheap
18:14 < drt> the MEMS devices have a megapixel or so
18:14 < fenn> a spinning disc?
18:15 < fenn> the wavelength is somewhat constrained; it has to be energetic enough to remove the photolabile group but not so much that is blasts the dna into pieces
18:15 < fenn> kanzure: do you know what wavelength they use?
18:15 < drt> no need for spinning disc. expand the beam to fit the entire MEMS array, but focus it so it'll converge on the synthesis
18:16 < kanzure> no. I don't have any wavelength specs for photolithography / DNA synthesis
18:16 < drt> so don't use UV! DNA doesn't like UV.
18:16 < fenn> drt: ok, so you're just using the blu-ray laser? not the lens/carrier
18:16 < drt> sunburn, and all that
18:16 < drt> right. just the laser
18:16 < drt> gotta run... be back in 20 min...
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18:35 < drt> back
18:37 < kanzure> hey.
18:37 < kanzure> I just wrote a very long email to diybio :(
18:38 < kanzure> hah, nathan asked me for a "brief" description. oops
18:41 < fenn> kanzure you really should try to avoid linux-specific jargon when trying to convince biologists to put things in computer readable formats
18:41 < fenn> it just makes you look like a wingnut
18:42 < drt> Site-specific binding and stretching of DNA molecules at UV-light-patterned aminoterpolymer films
18:42 < drt> Jörg Opitz et al 2004 Nanotechnology 15 717-723
18:42 < kanzure> fenn: can you pick anything out in particular?
18:43 < kanzure> drt: do you need me to get that for you?
18:43 < fenn> In practice, if the
18:43 < fenn> thermocycler ends up with an ethernet connection, then you'd just
18:43 < fenn> dump/cat the file to it, or something, or if it's USB-wired, you
18:43 < fenn> wouldn't send it through /dev/eth0 but rather elsewhere like a mounted
18:43 < fenn> device.
18:43 < kanzure> oh
18:44 < kanzure> yes, that was particularly bad, I agree
18:44 < kanzure> drt: here it is: http://heybryan.org/books/papers/Site-specific%20binding%20and%20stretching%20of%20DNA%20molecules%20at%20UV-light-patterned%20aminoterpolymer%20films.pdf
18:44 -!- samrose [n=samrose@c-24-11-214-181.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
18:44 < kanzure> Hey samrose.
18:44 < drt> try this one instead. it's available online. Thanks, Canada!
18:44 < drt> Jörg Opitz et al 2004 Nanotechnology 15 717-723
18:45 < drt> oops
18:45 < drt> http://article.pubs.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/RPAS/rpv?hm=HInit&afpf=v96-281.pdf&journal=cjc&volume=74
18:45 < drt> there
18:45 < kanzure> drt: that link above gives you it.
18:45 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/books/papers/Site-specific%20binding%20and%20stretching%20of%20DNA%20molecules%20at%20UV-light-patterned%20aminoterpolymer%20films.pdf
18:45 < drt> full paper
18:45 < samrose> hey kanzure
18:45 < drt> but it's not about DNA, but it uses the same photolabile leaving group
18:45 < kanzure> drt: I have some papers that you might be interested in about photolabile photochemistry DNA stuff
18:46 < kanzure> you can see them at the top of the list here:
18:46 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/books/papers/?C=M;O=D
18:46 < drt> mkay
18:51 < drt> i'll get right on that ;)
18:55 < kanzure> what?
18:56 < kanzure> I'm so confused.
18:59 < drt> reading your list of references
19:00 < drt> ...reading...
19:01 -!- kanzure- [n=bryan@66.112.232.220] has joined #hplusroadmap
19:03 < xp_prg> kanzure you here?
19:06 < drt> reading the paper from the Affymetrix peeps "Efficiency of light directed synthesis..."
19:06 < drt> i'lll disappear for a few minutes whilst I read this. talk amongst yourselves
19:20 -!- cis-action [n=cis-acti@adsl-76-235-67-52.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit []
19:23 < kanzure-> xp_prg: yes
19:23 < kanzure-> drt: :) hope you like my paper collection
19:24 < kanzure-> drt: if you want, we can physically arrange for you to get a copy of the data. there's over 40 GB of juicy papers.
19:24 < drt> indeed!
19:24 < drt> OOOOOoooo!
19:24 < kanzure-> hehe :)
19:24 < kanzure-> do you have any paper archives?
19:24 < drt> it's like getting a PhD all over again!
19:24 < kanzure-> hah
19:24 < drt> Yep. About 250 pounds of 'em.
19:24 < kanzure-> wait then.
19:24 < fenn> is that a good thing?
19:24 < kanzure-> where then is my phd?
19:25 < fenn> er, the phd i mean
19:25 -!- genehacker [n=chatzill@wireless-128-62-174-161.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap
19:25  * kanzure- demands a phd
19:25 < kanzure-> genehacker: hey
19:25 < genehacker> hey
19:25 < kanzure-> drt: genehacker is the one making a reprap
19:25 < fenn> phd's for everybody!
19:25 < drt> LOL. You haven't suffered enough to have a PhD!
19:25 < genehacker> so you talked to Dr. Pryor
19:25 < kanzure-> genehacker: drt is david treadwell, a materials guy who's been helping out with me
19:25 < kanzure-> genehacker: I talked with pryor a while back, yeah
19:26 < genehacker> and?
19:26 < kanzure-> he offered me a summer job but I didn't take it
19:26 < kanzure-> wait, he is interested in what I'm doing?
19:26 < kanzure-> he didn't seem too interested when I mentioned it to him
19:26 < kanzure-> I mentioned OROCOS to him and he didn't get all excited or anything
19:27 < kanzure-> genehacker: should I send an email to pryor?
19:27 < genehacker> if you want
19:27 < fenn> how is it that you actually talk to professors? when i was a freshman they wouldn't even look at me
19:27 < genehacker> he knew what a fablab was
19:27 < fenn> 'do you have an appointment?'
19:27 < genehacker> there was this event here discussing the science of ironman
19:28 < genehacker> plus this guy is pretty cool
19:28 < kanzure-> wtf, science of ironman
19:28  * kanzure- missed it :(
19:28 < genehacker> damn
19:28 < genehacker> Err, more like engineering of ironman
19:28 < genehacker> you know what?
19:28 -!- splicer_ [n=patrik@h8n3c1o261.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
19:28 -!- ybit [n=heath@unaffiliated/ybit] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
19:28 < kanzure-> cave + iron + man => iron man
19:29 -!- splicer_ [n=patrik@h8n3c1o261.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #hplusroadmap
19:29 < genehacker> dude, didn't you see the posters?
19:29 -!- ybit [n=heath@unaffiliated/ybit] has joined #hplusroadmap
19:29 < drt> everyone wants to talk to Bryan. we're drawn to him like moths to an oxidative plasma
19:29 < genehacker> oxidative plasma?
19:29 < kanzure-> so he knew me? that's good
19:29 < kanzure-> nope
19:29 < genehacker> like a plasmak?
19:30 < genehacker> oh you know what?
19:30  * fenn repeatedly bashes head into monitor
19:30 < kanzure> gah, too much lag.
19:30 < kanzure-> genehacker: so, re: robotic arms + SLS. I have a new project in the automated design lab
19:30 < kanzure> okay, anyway.
19:30 < kanzure> oh. there I go.
19:30 < genehacker> they can design purpose built robotic workcells in about a day now
19:31 < kanzure> basically we get to do SKDB with ADL
19:31 < kanzure> and campbell is thinking of hiring new people over the summer to work on stuff
19:31 < fenn> o rly
19:31 < kanzure> fenn should still show up :)
19:31 < genehacker> pryor's working on a "I can't show you this because the military said I can't" project to make an automatic bomb assembly system
19:32 < kanzure> bah.
19:32 < genehacker> you know they assemble bombs right there on the ship?
19:32 < kanzure> do they manufacture the parts on the ship?
19:32 < genehacker> no
19:32 < genehacker> they put them together
19:32 < fenn> some replacement parts are made with SLS machines
19:32 < genehacker> with a bunch of humans that work 72 hour shifts
19:32 < drt> oooh! a self-replicating bomb! now that's a career without a future!
19:33 < genehacker> what they do is they have like missile bodies and war heads and stuff like that I presume
19:33 < genehacker> speaking of bombs...
19:34 < kanzure> ok sent an email
19:34 < genehacker> http://www.google.com/patents?id=3IApAAAAEBAJ&dq=fluidic+guidance
19:34 < genehacker> to pryor?
19:34 < kanzure> yes
19:34 < genehacker> well I won't be able to talk much, you see I haven't had any sleep
19:35 < genehacker> fluidic guidance of railgun launched missiles
19:35 < genehacker> maybe we could adapt it to make a fluidically guided people seeker
19:36 < kanzure> as fenn said, "you're just interested in it because it has the word fluid in it"
19:36 < genehacker> yeah so?
19:36 < genehacker> it's cool is it not?
19:37 < genehacker> a missile guided by a 4 pixel fluidic camera
19:38 < genehacker> a thermal imaging camera
19:48 < genehacker> http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/APStories/stories/D97J48IO2.html
19:48 < genehacker> huh?
19:48 < genehacker> well I'm afk
19:51 < drt> ttfn
19:52 < kanzure> pythonocc is broken now? wah.
19:53 < kanzure> AttributeError: 'module' object has no attribute 'delete_NISDisplay3d'
20:01 < kanzure> oh, I wasn't root when I installed it
20:01 < kanzure> Neat. I have display.DisplayColoredShape() now.
20:10 < fenn> pics or gtfo
20:11 < fenn> no, i dont really care, i just wanted to say that
20:11 < kanzure> had your fill for the day?
20:19 < fenn> i do wish the 'gears' would look sorta like gears, or at least be in the same plane
20:20 < kanzure> they are supposed to be in the same plane.
20:20 < kanzure> they don't look like gears because I don't know enough about gears to make something that reasonably correctly approximates gears
20:20 < kanzure> my idea though is to let users dump in standard gear CAD files in the future
20:20 < kanzure> so that this program will just position them
20:20 < kanzure> and the detail is a function of *their* laziness instead of mine
20:20 < kanzure> (because I'm a rotten bastard?)
20:20 < fenn> to the core
20:21 < kanzure> so I'm using display.DisplayShape(cylinders[3], 'RED') and when I rotate around, sometimes the surface is yellow, sometimes it's red, sometimes it's white 
20:21 < kanzure> as if there's a light source being simulated
20:21  * fenn wonders if cline is ever going to call
20:21 < kanzure> but then in wireframe mode, the outline is always red (never color changing)
20:21 < kanzure> what's up with this?
20:22 < kanzure> fenn: he's never really called me except to say that he's lost or something
20:23 < kanzure> (or lost looking for a space to park)
20:25  * kanzure heads down to the imax and to some food
20:35 < fenn> hmm. having a hard time articulating why i don't like the openwetware 'full name' policy
20:45 -!- samrose [n=samrose@c-24-11-214-181.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
21:08 < fenn> "it's not clear how many people we are losing because they are "freaked out" that people can edit their work under a pseudonym, this number may be larger than the number of people who would be upset about having their real name associated with edits on the site."
21:09 < fenn> i must be missing something
21:10 -!- xp_prg [n=xp_prg3@208-106-52-115.adsl.dynamic.shocking.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"]
21:20 < kanzure> fenn: the whole point is to let anybody edit
21:20 < kanzure> why would we want to restrict diybio? etc.
21:36 < kanzure>  it's very hard to program without documentation
21:36 < kanzure> how do I fix this lighting issue?
21:38 < kanzure> interesting. if I set the color to 'blue' in wireframe mode, and then switch to shaded mode, the 'blue' doesn't actually stick. how weird.
21:38 < kanzure> but then if I go back to wireframe, it's back to blue
21:57 -!- jm|afk [n=jm@p57B9F9AB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
22:09 -!- kanzure- [n=bryan@66.112.232.220] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
22:30 < kanzure> any ideas on fixing this problem?
22:30 < fenn> can you post the script that exhibits the bug?
22:33 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/scripts/pythonocc-coloring-error.py
22:34 < fenn> weird
22:35 < kanzure> you see it?
22:35 < kanzure> I think XPDE might be what I'm looking for, but I'm scared of it because I have no idea where the documentation is
22:35 < fenn> bah. no readline on the python shell
22:36 < fenn> hm. ctrl+up-arrow
22:36 < kanzure> yes
22:37 < kanzure> I thought you would know that :)
22:37 < kanzure> there is also some arrow navigation with the popup menus, btw
22:40 < fenn> i like wxwidgets because of its strategic value in destroying microsoft, not because it's intrinsically well designed software
22:41 < kanzure> where'd that comment come from
22:41 < fenn> the weird shell interface
22:43 < kanzure> huh? now I'm confused
22:43 < fenn> nevermind
22:43 < kanzure> the shell implements python.
22:43 < fenn> yeah but it has all sorts of extra features that don't work the way you expect
22:48 -!- drt_ [n=chatzill@adsl-71-145-142-46.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
22:52 -!- drt [n=chatzill@cpe-70-112-223-97.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
22:52 -!- drt_ is now known as drt
22:53 < kanzure> hey drt
22:53  * kanzure is hanging out with emil tonight
22:53 < drt> aye, kanzure
22:53 -!- cis-action [n=cis-acti@adsl-76-235-67-52.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
22:54 -!- drt is now known as DrTread
22:54 < DrTread> NickServe is unhappy with my use of "drt", so i'm now the more descriptive "DrTread"
22:55 < DrTread> yes, yes, it has capital letters. think of it as shouting my name.
22:57 < fenn> that's totally unprofessional. i demand you use your full name and middle initial, so that others don't feel "freaked out" that an anonymous person could read and respond to their comments
22:57 < kanzure> shouting hurts my dendirtes
22:57 < kanzure> fenn: I don't know if DrTread reads diybio or not
22:57 < kanzure> so he might not get that
22:57 < fenn> probably not
22:57 < DrTread> am so out of teh loopz :(
22:58 < DrTread> i spends to much tymz readn teh lolcatz
22:58 < fenn> DrTread: do you think it's reasonable to require someone to register and post under their full name to an 'open science' wiki?
22:58 < DrTread> Yes.
22:58 < fenn> even if they're not doing 'science'
22:59 < DrTread> so why are they posting to a science wiki?
22:59 < fenn> because some idiot decided to make that the place where development happens
22:59 < DrTread> ah.
23:00 < DrTread> "real" is a funny word in this context. who's doing the checking?
23:01 < fenn> good question, apparently they are too cowardly to use their real name
23:04 -!- cis-action [n=cis-acti@adsl-76-235-67-52.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit []
23:06 < fenn> science is in quotes because it's not really about science anyway, it's about biological engineering
23:09 < DrTread> hmmm. i have friends who post on rather dangerous chemistry bboards using a nick, but their real name is visible
23:09 < fenn> nothing dangerous, this is pretty mundane stuff
23:10 < fenn> part of what's so maddening is i can't think of any solid reasons either for or against
23:10 < kanzure> DrTread: is it the sciencemadness or rougesci forum?
23:10 < DrTread> as long as ur not making aerosolized anthrax
23:10 < DrTread> sciencemadness
23:10 < kanzure> yep :)
23:10 < kanzure> been there, done that
23:10 < DrTread> uh, ok. :)
23:10 < DrTread> first you get a dead sheep
23:10 < DrTread> and some clay...
23:11 < kanzure> hrm
23:11 < fenn> then catapult the dead sheep into a secret bioweapons bunker, and while they're busy with that you sneak in and steal the anthrax!
23:13 < DrTread> LOL "fechez les vacces" as the french kniggits said
23:23 < kanzure> googlestalk: quantified self meetup
23:23 < kanzure> mark carranza
23:23 < kanzure> http://www.kk.org/quantifiedself/
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23:31 < kanzure> fenn: I need a scheme to get steve to move down here
23:39 < kanzure> maybe I'll use the XCAF_Doc stuff, though I can't figure out how to display the h_doc object in the interactiveviewer
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23:48 -!- cis-action [n=cis-acti@adsl-76-235-67-52.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
23:50 < kanzure> hey cis-action 
23:56 < cis-action> hey