--- Day changed Fri Apr 17 2009 00:00 < kanzure-> oh, you weren't able to open the chm file? 00:00 < kanzure-> maybe I'll go look at the pdf files. 00:01 < fenn> i could open the .chm but not the .HLP 00:02 -!- katsmeow is now known as katsmeow-afk 00:06 < fenn> heh no wonder it compressed so well.. the .hlp is full of .bmp files 00:12 -!- xp_prg [n=xp_prg3@adsl-76-231-253-78.dsl.chi2ca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:15 < fenn> so, helpdeco and then catdoc *rtf gets the text from the .hlp file 00:16 < fenn> still it's rather a pain compared to .html 01:03 -!- splicer [n=patrik@h8n3c1o261.bredband.skanova.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 01:27 -!- Netsplit over, joins: boogles 03:50 < fenn> wow denno coil actually wrapped it all up with a rational explanation 04:20 < bkero_> dennou Coil was pretty meh imho 04:20 -!- bkero_ is now known as bkero 05:41 -!- elias` [n=me@cs78208074.pp.htv.fi] has joined #hplusroadmap 05:57 -!- jm|space [n=jm@p57B9E53A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 06:23 -!- nsh [n=nsh@host86-141-176-82.range86-141.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:52 -!- samrose [n=samrose@c-24-11-214-181.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 09:33 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:55 -!- nsh [n=nsh@host86-133-35-168.range86-133.btcentralplus.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 09:57 -!- any71303670 [n=someone@75-121-63-49.dyn.centurytel.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 10:14 -!- katsmeow-afk [n=someone@75-120-30-250.dyn.centurytel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:19 < kanzure> fenn: I'm so scared 10:19 < kanzure> why are these people talking about *hyperterminal* 10:19 < kanzure> and Visual basic 10:19 < kanzure> :( 10:33 -!- duzt [n=duzt@dsl093-216-054.aus1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:40 -!- elias` [n=me@cs78208074.pp.htv.fi] has joined #hplusroadmap 10:57 -!- cis-action [n=cis-acti@adsl-76-235-67-52.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 11:04 < kanzure> http://www.pjrc.com/teensy/ teensy USB development board 11:09 -!- jm|afk [n=jm@p57B9C51E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 11:12 < kanzure> http://88proof.com/synthetic_biology/blog/ cline's blog 11:14 -!- jm|space [n=jm@p57B9E53A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:16 -!- kanzure- [n=bryan@66.112.232.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:14 -!- xp_prg [n=xp_prg3@208-106-52-115.adsl.dynamic.shocking.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 12:55 -!- duzt [n=duzt@dsl093-216-054.aus1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 12:56 -!- any71303670 is now known as katsmeow 13:19 < ybit> it's not really diy-bio if it's students working at their school's lab :P 13:20 < ybit> though i suppose there isn't a clear def. just yet 13:45 < kanzure> isn't amateur supposed to be easy to define? "not necessarily a degree holder." 13:46 -!- samrose [n=samrose@c-24-11-214-181.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:46 -!- cis-action [n=cis-acti@adsl-76-235-67-52.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 13:59 < kanzure> hrm 13:59 < kanzure> "the gene is viewed as a probability vector for the generation of the phenotype" 14:09 < kanzure> http://mtt.sourceforge.net/ 14:11 < kanzure> http://mtt.sourceforge.net/examples/Chemical_rep/node27.html 14:16 < kanzure> hm @ pg 23 of the manual 14:17 < kanzure> pg 42 14:17 < kanzure> pg 44 14:18 < kanzure> pg 50. seems to allow algebra. 14:21 < kanzure> $MTT_COMPONENTS 15:29 -!- kanzure-- [n=bryan@w-mob400-128-62-214-54.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap 16:03 -!- duzt [n=duzt@dsl093-216-054.aus1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:03 -!- genehacker [n=chatzill@wireless-128-62-80-52.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap 16:04 < genehacker> are you there kanzure 16:04 < genehacker> are you there kanzure 16:05 < kanzure--> yes 16:06 < genehacker> are you on your laptop? 16:09 < fenn> this is kind of fun to play with - 2d constraints system; supposedly it can be extended to more dimensions 16:09 < fenn> http://www.cq.cx/sketchflat.pl 17:00 -!- kanzure-- [n=bryan@w-mob400-128-62-214-54.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:10 < xp_prg> http://stream1.streamq.net:8000/codecon.sdp 17:21 -!- genehacker [n=chatzill@wireless-128-62-80-52.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:30 < bkero> Epic pirate win 17:30 < bkero> http://thepiratebay.org/special/2009epicwinanyhow.php 18:04 -!- cis-action [n=cis-acti@adsl-68-126-219-197.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 18:05 -!- cis-action [n=cis-acti@adsl-68-126-219-197.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:05 -!- cis-action [n=cis-acti@adsl-68-126-219-197.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 18:08 < fenn> cis-action: how do you guys afford flying back and forth from boston/sf all the time? 18:09 < fenn> do conference organizers pay for it? 18:09 < cis-action> not this time 18:09 < kanzure> I heart meredith 18:10 < kanzure> fenn: I had a $125 plane ticket (one-way) to SF, so .. 18:10 < cis-action> it was $300 on virgin america 18:10 < cis-action> but "all the time" = once a year? 18:12 -!- PeerInfinity [n=someone@216.36.180.162] has joined #hplusroadmap 18:12 < kanzure> ack 18:12 < kanzure> wtf is this 18:12 < kanzure> "just throw it in and figure out how your system works. then you can know how to do it later" - jake 18:12 < kanzure> I'm increasingly less impressed with jake 18:16 < fenn> i wonder if they think this counts as a design file http://static1.shopify.com/s/files/1/0001/7292/products/bbb_revd_pcb_800.jpg?1239866639 18:16 * kanzure cries 18:17 < kanzure> the fact that it has typeset on there means that there's something that actually has the design data, or somebody's using a very old typewriter (which I doubt) 18:17 < kanzure> but then people don't understand that it's that information which is important 18:17 < kanzure> fenn: you know how I get that weird feeling when I talk with machinists? I mentioned it before .. I'm getting that feeling when talking to some of the biologists (or some of the people who claim to only be biologists) 18:18 < fenn> 'the only thing you were born knowing how to do is shit and complain' 18:19 < kanzure> it's the second of the two that I have perfected to an art 18:19 < kanzure> fenn, did you see mtt.sf.net ? 18:20 < kanzure> I found it in a 2007 phd thesis from an ADL fellow, he was using it for something about bond graphs, and physical quantities using some algebraic parser was implemented 18:21 < kanzure> bond graphs show flows of energy/materials between components using algebra and some classification of physical quantities (which I've never fully understood) 18:22 < fenn> 'someone with labview at their university could make a slick interface that would be totally useless for the rest of us peons' 18:22 < fenn> thanks jake 18:22 < kanzure> heh, that was jake too? 18:22 < kanzure> that's hillarious. you really need to reply with that.. 18:23 < kanzure> but there's some self-executable or something that he's talking about 18:23 < kanzure> different proprietary systems do that. they package up just enough of their DLLs for you to not take advantage of it 18:23 < kanzure> kinda like the python-to-exe stuff. 18:23 < fenn> oh i missed the 'use the application builder to make a standalone app' part 18:23 < kanzure> but still, it would suck 18:23 < fenn> yeah 18:23 < kanzure> it would probably be windows-only 18:23 < kanzure> I'm so glad meredith has her head on straight 18:27 < kanzure> hey, why are there ">" and "<" keys on my keyboard? these were here long before HTML became popular. 18:32 < kanzure> fenn: here's what I'm thinking for the representation of a port-based constraint. there would be a port, it would have some ID, and there would be a list of options of all constraints that must be satisfied. but then multiple "options" for these. so, say there are 2 sets. setA, setB, for portA. one of those two sets must be satsified for 'compatibility' to say it is valid. 18:33 < fenn> kanzure: they're for proper quoting in newsgroups :) 18:34 < fenn> and shell redirection 18:34 < kanzure> aha 18:34 < kanzure> yes. good point, shell redirection has been around since before newsgroups 18:34 < fenn> there really ought to be a down-caret, for symmetry 18:35 < fenn> i guess 'v' works well enough 18:36 < fenn> 2 sets of constraints? isnt this just getting into logic? 18:38 < fenn> i wonder whether the PCR patent will be up by the time anyone actually builds a thermocycler 18:40 < fenn> oh it's 17 years not 14 18:50 < fenn> hm. unfortunately there aren't any tutorials for heekscad 18:50 < fenn> and you won't be able to print it out and give it to mister "git'r done" 18:54 -!- cis-action [n=cis-acti@adsl-68-126-219-197.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [] 18:58 -!- DrTread [n=chatzill@cpe-70-112-223-97.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 18:59 -!- cis-action [n=cis-acti@adsl-68-126-219-197.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 19:14 < kanzure> fenn: what? machinists would model it? why 19:14 < kanzure> hey DrTread. 19:14 < DrTread> hi, kanzure 19:15 < kanzure> josh made a nice argument for ethernet over usb re: no switches for usb hubs. 19:17 < DrTread> sorry...distracted...i'm sorting my resistor collection. 19:17 < kanzure> DrTread: you know, SMT rolls of resistors might be a better idea 19:17 < DrTread> true. i'm already using a microscope & SMT ICs. 19:17 < kanzure> heh 19:18 < DrTread> it's hell to get old. 0.9 mm pitch chips just aren't as easy as DIPs 19:18 < DrTread> when i was a kid, electronics were BIG and WE LIKED IT!!! 19:21 < DrTread> i'm teaching myself how to control shift registers w/ Arduino 19:21 < kanzure> how much space on the register? 19:23 < DrTread> this particular one has 8 outputs, but can be daisy-chained 19:23 < DrTread> http://www.arduino.cc/en/Tutorial/ShiftOut 19:24 -!- cis-action [n=cis-acti@adsl-68-126-219-197.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [] 19:25 < DrTread> of course, i won't be happy until I have control over an 8 x 8 RGB array with 24-bit color 19:25 < DrTread> why stop there... make that an 8 x 8 x 8 cube. 19:36 < DrTread> idea: SMT breadboard made just like a regular breadboard, but with adhesive conductive pads for chips & resistors 19:39 < fenn> kanzure: good luck getting a machinist to compile heekscad for your one 'drill some holes in this block' job 19:42 < fenn> i am wondering how this gradient pcr stuff works 19:42 < DrTread> sigh...i'd do it for you, if i just had CNC on my mill. 19:43 < fenn> how do they ensure it's a linear gradient all the way across the block and not some weird sigmoid function 19:52 < kanzure> fenn: what? why would a machinist be asked to use a CAD app? 19:52 < kanzure> it's my understanding that machinists hate CAD 19:52 < kanzure> and just want a 2D schematic 19:52 < DrTread> IAWT 19:54 < DrTread> how many holes do you need, and in what? 19:55 < kanzure> DrTread: this is from the diybio discussion about an open source thermocycler 19:55 < kanzure> I don't know if you're subscribed 19:55 < DrTread> no, i don 19:55 < DrTread> 't think i have 19:55 < kanzure> http://groups.google.com/group/diybio 19:56 < fenn> yes that's correct; but there's no print schematic functionality in heekscad 19:56 < kanzure> oh 19:56 < kanzure> um. okay. guess I should throw that on the todo list 19:57 < fenn> ya 19:57 < fenn> i'm not sure how to go about it exactly 19:57 < fenn> supposedly schematic drawing is another of those 'more art than science' things 19:57 < kanzure> so, the solidworks version sucked entirely 19:57 < kanzure> yes 19:57 < kanzure> what you had to go through to get it right was worse than a painful death in microsoft word trying to do page layouts and such 19:58 < kanzure> but a basic version would be something like, export all top/bottom/rear/right/left etc views 19:58 < kanzure> and then jump to wireframe mode 19:58 < kanzure> and add in the dimensions 19:58 < fenn> eh.. i wish 19:58 < kanzure> should it be more complicated? 19:58 < fenn> for one, that only works if your part is more or less rectangular 19:59 < kanzure> what shape would break it? 19:59 < fenn> well, imagine you've got a geodesic dome 19:59 < kanzure> if you need an isometric view port, that's easily possible with wireframe+rotation 20:00 < fenn> heekscad has this concept of coordinate systems 20:00 < fenn> i havent really used it much though 20:01 < kanzure> heh, albert (the grad student) asked me for a coordinate graph for the gear visualizer and I had to tell him it wasn't going to happen in the next few days. 20:01 < kanzure> thesis due like, tomorrow 20:01 < kanzure> heh' 20:01 < fenn> that's his thesis? that sucks 20:02 < fenn> do you know of any arduino shields with buttons and character LCD? 20:02 < DrTread> yes. how many buttons? i'm looking at one with 6 on my desk 20:03 < kanzure> fenn: his thesis is gear train optimization, and I wrote him a visualizer that can now export to CAD. 20:03 < fenn> 6 is enough 20:03 < kanzure> or, it doesn't export yet, but it's at least now feasible 20:03 < DrTread> i bought a couple of them from one of those Hong Kong eBay shops. 20:04 < DrTread> i had to wait for chinese new year to be over before they shipped, tho. 20:04 < fenn> seems like there would be some kind of super database for arduino shields 20:05 < DrTread> adafruit forum is pretty good at that 20:06 < kanzure> gasp, a forum I'm not registered to 20:06 < DrTread> :-O end of world! 20:07 < kanzure> oh, ladyada 20:07 < DrTread> ...shift register-controlled LEDs happily blinking away.. 20:08 < fenn> gah wtf were they thinking with the double row headers http://www.adafruit.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=17_21&products_id=130 20:08 < kanzure> DrTread: shift register is spitting out the sequence for LED blinking? 20:08 < DrTread> shift register gets its orders from arduino 20:08 < DrTread> converts serial to parallel 20:09 < kanzure> I thought a shift register was a memory element (a register) 20:09 < fenn> what are you doing with LED's? 20:10 < DrTread> watching the pretty lights blink. i just bought a bunch of shift registers from Goldmine; running tutorial code 20:10 < fenn> hm ok 20:10 < fenn> goldmine's prices suck btw 20:11 < DrTread> suck for most stuff, but i bought these on sale. not so bad 20:11 < fenn> especially considering they may or may not have what you want the next time you check 20:11 < DrTread> heck, even DigiKey's prices suck compared to direct-from-manufacturer 20:11 < fenn> i got a bunch of 8-segment displays from goldmine 20:11 < DrTread> true enough. 20:12 < fenn> wow the wiznet chip is only $5 20:12 < DrTread> i got a bag of 8 segments, cheap, if you don't mind what you get :) 20:13 < DrTread> ...hooking up second shift register to output of first... more blinky lights on the way... 20:14 < fenn> DrTread: are you multiplexing the LED's? 20:14 < kanzure> what is crappy wood called? polyboard? 20:14 < kanzure> not plywood.. 20:15 < kanzure> particle board 20:15 < DrTread> yes, sort of. i'm doing the arduino tutorial on shift registers 20:15 < kanzure> get a large sheet of particle board, mount a 1000x1000 LED matrix, and nevermind .. this wouldn't make a good genome synthesizer 20:15 < DrTread> http://www.arduino.cc/en/Tutorial/ShiftOut 20:15 < kanzure> unless you have buckets and buckets of all sorts of fun chemicals.. 20:15 < kanzure> !fun 20:16 < DrTread> I love buckets of fun chemicals!!!! 20:16 < kanzure> :) 20:17 < kanzure> fenn: those images of the prototyping boards make me scream. that's something that software should be generating 20:17 < kanzure> maybe it did. 20:17 < fenn> DrTread: you could control all 16 LED's with one shift register 20:17 < fenn> if you multiplex 20:17 < fenn> exercise left for the student 20:18 < fenn> hint: you need 4 transistors 20:18 < DrTread> yes, and i could control 64 with 2 shift registers 20:18 < DrTread> and 2 inverters 20:18 < DrTread> well, 8 inverter gates 20:18 < fenn> what are the inverters for? 20:19 < fenn> sinking current? 20:19 < DrTread> the first shift register sources power to the LEDs 20:19 < DrTread> the second needs to sink current, but if it's a sourcing register... 20:19 < DrTread> you got it :) 20:19 < DrTread> you win a cookie 20:20 * kanzure grabs the cookie 20:20 * fenn looks around at the cookie-less barren desolation 20:20 < fenn> wah! 20:20 < DrTread> oh! the humanity! 20:20 < DrTread> teh interwebz is such a cruel place 20:20 < fenn> it's that cruel AI with faster reflexes than humanly possible 20:21 < DrTread> is kanzure actually a bot? should we run the Voight-Kampf test on him? 20:21 < fenn> he's already failed the turing test on multiple occasions 20:21 < DrTread> and so have i 20:21 < fenn> egads 20:22 < fenn> i'm surrounded by bots 20:22 < DrTread> kanzure, you are visiting your young nephew. he shows you his butterfly collection 20:22 < DrTread> then he shows you his killing jar. 20:22 < DrTread> what do you do? 20:22 < kanzure> look at each butterfly? 20:22 < DrTread> ok. 20:22 < DrTread> now, you're in the desert. you see a tortise. 20:23 < kanzure> "Because I am also a tortoise." 20:23 < DrTread> you flip the tortoise on its tack 20:23 < DrTread> bac 20:23 < DrTread> k 20:23 < fenn> FAIL 20:23 < DrTread> it is dying in the hot sun... 20:23 < DrTread> but you don't turn it over! 20:23 < DrTread> WHY IS THAT, Leon... uh kanzure? 20:23 < kanzure> "Because I am also a tortoise." 20:24 < DrTread> ah. ok. they're just questions, kanzure. 20:24 < kanzure> well presumably there was a cookie at the end of the questions 20:24 < DrTread> Using only single words, tell me the good things you remember about fenn. 20:24 < DrTread> replicants don't eat cookies. FAIL 20:25 < kanzure> can I go back to my shell now? 20:25 < DrTread> yes. that's all. thank you. :) 20:29 < DrTread> :( i ran out of 220 ohm resistors. 20:30 < fenn> just use 1k for everything 20:30 < fenn> "we have standardized on 1k resistors" 20:30 < DrTread> oh, i've got boxes & boxes of others. 330 ohm sounds good 20:31 < fenn> DrTread: do you know about this fab lab thing yet? 20:31 < DrTread> i use 2.2k for my "universal resistor" 20:32 < fenn> you are mistaken, sir. 1k is the one true universal resistor 20:32 < DrTread> what? the rules changed? 20:32 < DrTread> why wasn't i notified??? 20:32 < DrTread> fab lab? kanzure mentioned a little something about it. 20:32 < fenn> eh, well, the latest revision to the universe virtual machine hasn't fully populated yet.. 20:33 < fenn> so, les has a woodworking shop in this huge industrial space, and wants people to do cool stuff in it and pay a little bit of rent each so he doesn't have to be the single point of failure 20:34 < fenn> i am certainly going to be doing lots of electronics there 20:34 < DrTread> actually, 316 ohms would be the universal resistor, as 0.01 ohms is the smallest common value and 10M is the largest common value. 20:34 < DrTread> take the square root, it's 316 20:35 < DrTread> yes, i'll move my lathe, MakerBot and eventual Epilog laser there. maybe? 20:35 < fenn> wouldnt it be 3162.27 ohms? 20:35 < DrTread> and my chem lab 20:35 < fenn> oo a chem lab would be neat 20:35 < DrTread> pffft. show me a resistor with more than 3 significant figures 20:36 < fenn> there's already a tiny lathe, sorta 20:36 < fenn> DrTread: did you know glassware is illegal in texas? 20:36 < DrTread> mine's not tiny 20:36 < fenn> so i hear, at least 20:36 < DrTread> yes, sort of. 20:36 < DrTread> i do have my own business, tho. 20:37 < DrTread> note to self: talk to local lawyer 20:39 < fenn> is this chem lab for doing professional stuffs or just personal tinkering mostly? 20:39 < DrTread> a little of each. 20:41 < DrTread> i'd love to have a REAL lab, but there's only so much i'm willing to do in my garage. 20:41 < fenn> maybe we could stick you over in the corner with the vent hole 20:42 < DrTread> that'd be nice :) 20:42 < fenn> no plumbing though 20:44 < DrTread> **sobs miserably** 20:45 < DrTread> ok, last wires connected to blinkey light thing 20:47 < fenn> maybe it's not a bad idea to just run a drain pipe, electricity, and ethernet all along the back wall 20:48 < DrTread> depends on how stinky Austin is about what goes down the drain 20:48 < fenn> hopefully you won't be dumping anything that dissolves PVC 20:50 < fenn> i wonder why the hong kong arduino clones won't ship to italy 20:51 < DrTread> because they don't pay for the Arduino trademark, but use it anyway? 20:53 < DrTread> ah, satisfying. i've got a dual cylon thing going on with the leds 20:54 -!- xp_prg [n=xp_prg3@208-106-52-115.adsl.dynamic.shocking.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:55 < kanzure> so, fenn, 20:55 < kanzure> for constraint checking 20:56 < kanzure> should we have "20 N" and then a separate attribute saying "input"/"output" 20:56 < kanzure> or how should that work? 20:56 < kanzure> two connected pipes might be 3000 psi rated, but one might actually be input and one might be output 20:56 < kanzure> i.e., a hole that is ok with 3000 psi is different from a tube connection that likes 3000 psi 20:56 < kanzure> (I think) 20:58 < kanzure> does that even make sense? 20:58 < kanzure> so, vectors more or less. 20:59 < kanzure> and we could call the method "vector matching" since it sounds like it conveys the most information about what I'm doing 20:59 < kanzure> although it's not really just a vector. hrm. this is hard to visualize 21:00 < kanzure> it's more like a giant 3D region but with a direction of 'flow' from the port 21:03 < kanzure> http://scitation.aip.org/getabs/servlet/GetabsServlet?prog=normal&id=JMDEDB000130000004041102000001&idtype=cvips&gifs=yes 21:03 < kanzure> oh, it's campbell. I work for that guy. hrm. 21:04 < DrTread> oooh! genetic algo! 21:05 < kanzure> sort of. 21:05 < kanzure> DrTread: so what I'm trying to figure out is what sort of data structure I should use to compare wehtehr or not two lists of acceptable physical quantities, and their domains, or something, are compatible between two faces between two CAD models 21:05 < kanzure> *whether 21:06 < kanzure> here's that paper: http://heybryan.org/books/papers/Bond%20graph%20based%20automated%20modeling%20for%20computer-aided%20design%20of%20dynamic%20systems.pdf 21:07 < DrTread> your brain? 21:07 < DrTread> or is it too big? 21:07 < DrTread> the data, not your brain 21:07 < kanzure> what? 21:07 < DrTread> there are so many ways of describing the same thing. 21:07 < DrTread> your brain might be capable of comprehending such a thing. 21:08 < kanzure> there are many ways, that's true 21:08 < kanzure> I need to pick one 21:09 < DrTread> randomly pick a point in 3-D space, plug it in to the model & see if you get the same answer back. 21:09 < DrTread> now repeat that enough times to satisfy your curiosity. 21:10 < DrTread> opening sentence of Wu, et al. says it all: "...one of the most demanding and yet poorly understood..." 21:16 < kanzure> in some cases you label free body diagrams with a vector saying that maybe a stream is constantly flowing at some rate or something 21:16 < kanzure> is there some physical quantity that is described by something that has more components than a vector? 21:16 < kanzure> i.e., a tuple? 21:18 < DrTread> a tensor? 21:18 < kanzure> thank you 21:19 < DrTread> np 21:19 < kanzure> knew I was forgetting something :) 21:19 < fenn> clever design on that arduino LCD + button thing 21:19 < DrTread> please feel free to study tensor calculus. 21:19 < kanzure> okay. 21:19 < kanzure> DrTread: I thought I was so smart when I came up with multivariable calculus in high school 21:19 < DrTread> i never did. big regret. 21:19 < kanzure> then I entered the class in college and became sad :/ 21:19 < DrTread> you invented it? WOW!!! 21:19 < fenn> it only uses one pin (an analog input) by adding up resistors with power of two 21:19 < kanzure> what? 21:19 < kanzure> DrTread: probably the wrong word 21:20 < kanzure> but sitting around in class and being bored and such, jotting down some notes 21:20 < DrTread> ooof. 21:20 < DrTread> yes, clever little LCDs. 21:20 < kanzure> it seems I for some reason chose to come up with partial differentials based off of vector components for some reason, i.e. like the gradient function 21:20 < DrTread> I use the module to control a camera timer for time-lapse photography 21:21 < DrTread> oh, dear. gradient diffusion. graduate level stuff there. 21:21 < DrTread> bite off more than you can chew, did you? 21:21 < DrTread> i very much want to understand this. i'm quite interested in studying particle dynamics in flame jets 21:22 < kanzure> I was recently reading a paper by whitesides about gradient diffusion, but no, I don't think that's what it was 21:22 < DrTread> whitesides, as in George? 21:22 < kanzure> yes 21:22 < kanzure> he had some microfluidic circuits for generating gradients for particles 21:22 < DrTread> he's my academic grandfather 21:22 < DrTread> i studied under a student of his 21:22 < kanzure> blah. why can't he be *my* academic grandfather 21:22 < DrTread> he can. 21:23 < kanzure> how? 21:23 < DrTread> study under a student of his. :D 21:23 < DrTread> apprentice yourself 21:23 * kanzure opens up his googlestalk app 21:24 < DrTread> it will amuse you to know that I have an Erdös number of 5. 21:24 < DrTread> which gives me cred in the mathematics world. 21:24 < DrTread> thanks to G. Whitesides & his daughter 21:25 < fenn> yeah but what's your bacon number 21:25 < DrTread> i've never found that. 21:25 < DrTread> there are a very few people with both 21:25 < fenn> nah they just don't know it 21:26 < kanzure> I have a whole folder for whitesides stuff 21:26 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/books/papers/whitesides/ 21:26 < kanzure> hm, that's not everything I've read by him though 21:26 < DrTread> The lowest known Erdős–Bacon number is three for Daniel Kleitman, a mathematics professor at MIT; his Erdős number is 1 and his Bacon number is 2. 21:26 < kanzure> heh, maybe that's the guy to stalk. 21:26 < DrTread> hehe 21:26 < kanzure> why can't we have a kanzure-number ? 21:27 < DrTread> i have BOXES of whitesides papers 21:27 < kanzure> will you give me these boxes? please please please? 21:27 < fenn> i think he means dead trees 21:27 < kanzure> compulsive hoarding 21:27 < DrTread> after you stole the cookie from fenn? 21:27 < kanzure> I said I was soo-rhey 21:27 < DrTread> oh, ok. 21:28 < DrTread> but i'm a compulsive hoarder, too. 21:28 < DrTread> say... 21:28 < kanzure> have you heard of the Collyer brothers? 21:28 < DrTread> how would you like a house full of interesting crap, er, stuff? 21:28 < kanzure> heh 21:28 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collyer_brothers 21:28 < DrTread> the game designers? 21:29 < kanzure> see the link 21:29 < DrTread> already there 21:30 < DrTread> oooh, cool!!! 21:30 < DrTread> something to aspire to! 21:30 < DrTread> oh, excuse me. something to which i aspire! 21:31 < kanzure> the trick is finding today's modern equivalent of a Collyer brother 21:32 < kanzure> because that fellow is surely going to be interesting 21:32 < DrTread> ooof. 103 tons of garbage. 21:33 < kanzure> "garbage" is relative 21:33 < kanzure> I don't like throwing stuff away either :/ 21:33 < DrTread> yes. but even I don't have tons of newspapers...whatever a "newspaper" is 21:33 < kanzure> I think it's an old laxative. 21:33 < kanzure> something associated with bathrooms. 21:34 < DrTread> hmm... runs to wikipedia to research.... 21:35 < DrTread> i've been watching 16 blinkey lights for over an hour now. time to do something interesting with them 21:36 < kanzure> DrTread: ever been mesmorized by a leaf for a few hours? 21:36 < DrTread> of course! 21:36 < DrTread> particularly under a microscope 21:42 < kanzure> hurm. maybe I need to do some coordinate transformation magic now. 21:42 < DrTread> matrices are your friend 21:43 < fenn> DrTread: POV display 21:43 * kanzure nods. 21:44 < fenn> "just add accelerometer" 21:45 < DrTread> right. freaky stuff, that. soon, i'll be wiring up my office desk (frosted glass top) to display weather information 21:45 < kanzure> where was it that I was seeing lamps that would follow you around your office desk? 21:46 < DrTread> another plan in the works is an art project, where I log my GPS position & acceleration 24/7 for a week 21:46 < DrTread> in your dreams, kanzure? 21:48 < DrTread> another idea i've had is to have pressure sensors on each leg of my dining room chairs, transmit the data to the table, which then turns on lights in response to how each diner is balanced on his chair 21:49 < fenn> kanzure: mit media lab 21:50 < DrTread> i think you're right. there was a conversation following table, too 21:50 < fenn> http://robotic.media.mit.edu/projects/robots/aur/overview/overview.html 21:51 < fenn> video http://www.media.mit.edu/?p=115 21:51 < DrTread> brb... 21:52 < fenn> sigh.. theatre dweebs 21:53 < fenn> there was another video where they showed how it might actually be useful 22:17 < kanzure> erm, maybe it's relative coordinate translations that i need 22:18 < kanzure> so I want to somehow define regions to which a label applies in a CAD model 22:18 < kanzure> and once this is somehow done, some way to then set coordinates relative to each other between models 22:19 < kanzure> erm. suppose you have two models, partA and partB, each of them has a sub-model-region thingy defined as a long cylindrical tube (of equal sizes)-- one being an input interface, the other an output interface 22:19 < kanzure> and then some way to position overlapping regions (the regions defined within the interfaces-region-thingy) 22:19 < kanzure> meh, I need better words 22:22 < fenn> you want to define the interface volume 22:38 < kanzure> once I do that though, I need a way to define .. erm. 22:38 < kanzure> so when the interference checking / collision detection takes place 22:38 < kanzure> the two parts need to be placed in the correct position 22:38 < kanzure> so if it's just two faces, that's easy- you just set all of the x coords or something to be the same thing 22:39 < kanzure> but if it's not just two faces, and instead it's two strange bodies ... 22:39 < kanzure> what then? 22:39 < kanzure> center of mass? 22:39 -!- jm|afk [n=jm@p57B9C51E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:43 < fenn> i dont know what you're asking 22:48 < kanzure> how do you position them. 22:48 < kanzure> given a boundary definition that makes up the "interface" of some arbitrary shape. 22:48 < kanzure> or possibly some 2D geometry (not a shape) (but I figure it's still specified in the same way- basically a model/object, which is fine) 22:56 < fenn> i'm sure there are lots of ways to think of how it could go wrong, but i'd just do collision detection and contact face 22:57 < kanzure> contact face? but what if it's not two faces 22:58 < fenn> uh, like some jellyfish dance? 22:58 < kanzure> hum I guess it always has to be two faces 22:58 -!- fenn_ [n=fenn@cpe-72-177-52-180.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 22:58 < kanzure> kind of like imagining two pieces of paper being glued together 22:58 < kanzure> hum I guess it always has to be two faces 22:59 < kanzure> what's with the random logouts? 22:59 < fenn_> les stepped on the router i guess 22:59 -!- fenn [n=fenn@cpe-72-177-52-180.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 22:59 -!- fenn_ is now known as fenn 23:01 < DrTread> looks like i missed lots of random 3D geometry banter 23:01 < kanzure> nope, we're still bantering 23:01 < kanzure> or at least I am 23:01 < DrTread> what's the subject of these colliding faces? 23:01 < kanzure> part mating 23:01 < kanzure> in automatic assembly CAD stuff 23:01 < DrTread> ah. 23:02 < kanzure> "Analysis of potential mating trajectories and grasp sites" was a good paper on this topic 23:02 < fenn> normally it would just be 'tagged' and you assume the interfaces fit 23:02 < kanzure> and "port-compatibility" (erm, the full title escapes me) 23:02 < kanzure> fenn: my system is better than that, you're making it too simple 23:02 < DrTread> ok. carry on, then. 23:03 < kanzure> just because you say they are the same doesn't tell the computer how to smash 'em together 23:03 < kanzure> in the back of my mind I'm thinking of something like "control points" 23:03 < kanzure> but that only works if the shapes are precisely the same 23:03 < kanzure> i.e., match opposite control points or something 23:03 < fenn> i guess you'd have to specify the position and orientation of the interface 23:03 < kanzure> right 23:03 < kanzure> so that's what I was saying originally 23:03 < kanzure> the position and shape is defined almost as an entire CAD model itself 23:04 < fenn> so there'd be a datum point for the whole interface 23:04 < kanzure> or just a region of points 23:04 < fenn> nah, just one point 23:04 < kanzure> but how do you tell it how to slide another region of points (another "boundary" interface thingy) 23:04 < fenn> six numbers 23:04 < kanzure> what? one point?? 23:04 < fenn> yes, all the other crap is in the interface class 23:04 < kanzure> what? 23:04 < fenn> it gets defined somewhere, so you don't have to redefine it every time 23:04 < kanzure> what gets defined somewhere? 23:05 < fenn> the interface geometry 23:05 < kanzure> but why is it at that one point? 23:05 < kanzure> so all interfaces are defined as a single point in the models? hrm.. 23:05 < fenn> because you only need one point to define the relative position of the interface wrt the rest of the cad model 23:05 < kanzure> okay, that's not terrible. 23:06 < kanzure> I can work that. 23:08 < kanzure> so I was thinking originally that there would be faces, lines, points, and then arbitrary regions. but I guess there could be some fuzzy classification method for classifying children classes of the interface class? 23:12 < DrTread> FWIW, see Bourg, David M., "Physics for Game Developers", O'Reilly, 2002. 23:14 < DrTread> game engines spending lots of time detecting collisions. even the best of them (GTA5 on the PS3) fail often. 23:15 < DrTread> with that, i'll sign off for the evening. 23:27 < kanzure> yeah 23:27 < kanzure> it's just been so long since I've written a game engine 23:33 -!- DrTread [n=chatzill@cpe-70-112-223-97.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:39 -!- fenn_ [n=fenn@cpe-72-177-52-180.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 23:40 -!- fenn [n=fenn@cpe-72-177-52-180.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:40 -!- fenn_ is now known as fenn 23:42 -!- any29470031 [n=someone@75-120-16-254.dyn.centurytel.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 23:52 -!- DrTread [n=chatzill@cpe-70-112-223-97.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 23:58 -!- DrTread_ [n=irchon@cpe-70-112-223-97.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 23:59 -!- katsmeow [n=someone@75-121-63-49.dyn.centurytel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:59 < DrTread_> whoohoo! iPhone client for irc!