--- Day changed Mon Apr 20 2009
00:09 < kanzure-> fenn: so one method that people have used is a silicon cantilever with a resistor built into it
00:09 < kanzure-> as the cantilever bends, the resistivity changes
00:09 < kanzure-> uh, resistance
00:09 < kanzure-> did I just say resistivity? :(
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00:15 < genehacker> goto ifpi.org right now
00:15 < genehacker> ERROR CONVERSATION LAPSE
00:19 < fenn> actually i think 'resistivity' is correct, in this case
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00:31 < genehacker> http://www.wired.com/science/planetearth/magazine/16-06/mf_monkeybusiness
00:31 < genehacker> you can get in trouble for Biopiracy in Brazil
00:32 < genehacker> heh
00:33 < genehacker> I wonder what they'd do about a researcher going into a forest there, sequencing everything in sight and dumping all the data to the internet
00:33 < kanzure-> what do you think prostitutes are doing?
00:34 < kanzure-> "genetic sleuthing" or something.
00:39 < genehacker> it's not piracy
00:39 < genehacker> though
00:39 < genehacker> it's making copies
00:41 < kanzure-> with a sufficiently long and sufficiently narrow nanochannel (picochannel?), would a fluidic scanning microscope device work? 
00:41 < kanzure-> I don't think it would because of the force required to push liquid up such a small channel
00:41 < kanzure-> but if it did you could just use light to detect whether or not the liquid is up to that particular point
00:41 < kanzure-> which would tell you how far the liquid has been pushed
00:42 < fenn> prostitutes provide a service which interferes with the marriage racket.. it's more like online college degrees than piracy
00:43 < kanzure-> ok ok, I'll just start stalking people and recovering DNA from their dirty dishes or something
00:43 < kanzure-> wait, why am I doing this?
00:43 < fenn> was that a barack obama reference?
00:43 < kanzure-> not to my knowledge
01:00 < fenn> wow sounds like someone was really out to get that biologist
01:00 < fenn> sending assassins after him even
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01:27 < genehacker> kanzure just mail them some junkmail
01:27 < genehacker> they pick it up
01:27 < genehacker> breath on it accidently
01:27 < genehacker> and throw it away
01:28 < genehacker> then extract the DNA from the paper
01:28 < genehacker> PCR is that sensitive
01:28 < genehacker> and unfortunately the dude who wrote the anthrax letters knew about it
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03:11 < faceface> apparently someone said somethgin to me in the last 3 days... anyone got a history?
03:11 < faceface> I have it here somewhere...
03:27 < fenn> 12:32 #hplusroadmap: < kanzure> faceface: that's neat. why would it result in a publication though?
03:27 < fenn> in response to: " each buddy would result in a pub."
03:28 < fenn> starting a new novel; which of these is best? left hand of darkness, the mote in god's eye, a fire upon the deep
03:39  * fenn wonders how much a gold-plated, machined chunk of silver costs
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07:47 < faceface> cheers fenn 
07:48 < faceface> kanzure-: getting a bioinf person to solve a bio problem, and a bio person to use some bioinf, should be a (small) publication I guess... depending on the quality of the work.
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10:58 < kanzure> http://www.opencircuits.com/Atomic_microscope
10:58 < kanzure> gwyddion. hrm.
11:06 < kanzure> http://www.nanosurf.com/ hrm. handheld AFM. "request a quote" blah
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11:19 < kanzure> is my fluid-AFM idea any good? would you be able to move a dyed fluid in response to pico-levels of forces?
11:19 < kanzure> or atto-levels, even? I don't think so. :-/ as you restrict the diameter of the channel, you increase the amount of force required to push liquid through, right?
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13:14 < kanzure-> that sandstone bacteria (bacillus pasteurii) sounds pretty neat
13:14 < kanzure-> "I researched different types of construction methods involving pile systems and realised that injection piles could probably be used to get the bacteria down into the sand – a procedure that would be analogous to using an oversized 3D printer, solidifying parts of the dune as needed."
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13:35 < kanzure-> heh heh
13:36 < kanzure-> 3D selective laser sintering .. from orbit.
13:40 < kanzure-> or er you don't need to be in orbit
13:40 < kanzure-> just on a really tall mountain
13:40 < kanzure-> you could print a city I think
13:40 < kanzure-> am I going insane?
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13:45 < kanzure-> Hey Eric
13:45 < kanzure-> erm, junglistric 
13:45 < junglistric> hello
13:45 < kanzure-> did you see my diybio post on 3D printing of deserts (SLS) from orbit?
13:46 < junglistric> no, i haven't, let me check the email digest
13:47 < kanzure-> http://is.gd/tvV7
13:50 < junglistric> hm, pretty amazing
13:51 < kanzure-> aren't there some serpinski triangle regulatory networks that we have engineered for bacteria?
13:51 < kanzure-> I mean, that make serpenski triangles on a plate of agar?
13:51 < kanzure-> I know we've done it with DNA (see Winfree/Rothemund, etc.), but I don't know about GRNs and multiple cells
13:53 < junglistric> i had to look serpinski up.  what do you mean by GRN?
13:54 < kanzure-> genetic regulatory network
13:54 < kanzure-> there are ways to control the expression of genes that would be involved in shape or growth and so on
13:54 < kanzure-> this is what is used in amorphous computation projects, for instance
13:58 < kanzure> http://bytesizebio.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/iching-thealieness.jpg huh?
13:58 < junglistric> a regulatory network that creates that type of structure, i'm not so sure.
13:59 < kanzure> isn't that how gene expression re: HOX works?
13:59 < kanzure> for shape determination
14:00 < kanzure> and destiny cells in embryo development
14:02 < junglistric> sure, but the would have to be some collective regulation since we're talking about the shape of a colony
14:06 < junglistric> might be an undertaking for a bio-artist
14:06 < junglistric> some outside stimulus i.e. light
14:08 < kanzure-> here at UT there was an igem project for that- bacterial patterning with a camera photograph
14:08 < kanzure-> a mask of the PI was used and the bacteria then displayed that photo :)
14:08 < kanzure-> it involved substantial genetic engineering of some signaling pathways apparently
14:10 < junglistric> yeah perhaps to tune the bacteria to the desired stimulus
14:11 < junglistric> easier than it sounds
14:11 < junglistric> *harder
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15:10 < bkero> bkero@fir ~ $ uptime 20:06:38 up 916 days,  2:33, 33 users,  load average: 1.70, 1.50, 1.70
15:11 < kanzure> http://www.acceleratingfuture.com/michael/blog/2009/04/interview-with-singularity-institute-president-michael-vassar/ <-- huh, Steve Rayhawk is now an employee of SIAI? good for him.
15:12 < kanzure> bkero: we all hate you :)
15:13 < kanzure> why can't *I* have an uptime of 916 days
15:13 < bkero> kanzure: That's my 5-9's service.
15:13 < kanzure> ?
15:13 < bkero> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_availability
15:13 < bkero> Availability is measured in 9's.
15:14 < bkero> 2 9's is 99%.  5 9's is 99.999%
15:14 < kanzure-> right.
15:14 < bkero> 5 9's is < 5 minutes of downtime/year.
15:14 < kanzure-> oh. 
15:14 < kanzure-> So you're cheating.
15:14 < bkero> ?
15:14 -!- samrose [n=samrose@c-24-11-214-181.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
15:14 < bkero> No, it's been up the entire time
15:14 < bkero> I'm saying it's provided at LEAST five nines
15:15 < kanzure-> hrm.
15:55 < kanzure> who introduced me to the concept of singing sand dunes in here?
15:56 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singing_sand
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16:12 < kanzure> I wonder if we could geoengineer sand dunes to produce ultrasonic booms
16:14 < kanzure> http://www.singingbridges.net/about/
16:14 < kanzure> "sonic sculpture"
16:22 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_sculpture
16:24 < kanzure> what neat sound devices have been built before? amplifiers, I guess
16:37 < kanzure> pneumatic sand circuits?
16:48 < fenn> shape determination from hox etc is based on folding and other type of sheet deformation
16:49 < fenn> you couldn't do that if locked in a matrix of sand particles
16:49 < fenn> and besides, bacteria don't grow in sheets
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17:12 < kanzure> see what you miss when you sleep?
17:13 < kanzure> not that anything has actually happened
17:13 < kanzure> you know what. nevermind.
17:16 < kanzure> heh, thomas paviot adopted fernhout's quoting method (ok ok, maybe he just knows enough python)
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17:19 < kanzure> http://hypography.com/forums/engineering-and-applied-science/18854-solar-desalinator-making-one-diy-serious.html
17:39 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/books/papers/solar%20still%20-%20diagram3%20-%20solar%20desalinator.jpg
17:57 < xp_prg> wow brian cool idea!
17:57 < xp_prg> brian what about getting the salt too?
18:04 < kanzure> what about it?
18:25 < kanzure> hurt what?
18:25 < kanzure> oh
18:31 < fenn> http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2008/04/algae-fuel-biof.html
18:44 < kanzure-> the first cantilever was hand-crafted 800 micrometer strip of gold foil glued to a diamond tip
18:44 < kanzure-> for AFM.
18:59 < xp_prg> kanzure harvest the salt from your desalinization
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19:03 < fenn> cost of sneakernet vs internet for large data transfers http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/000783.html
19:03 < fenn> linked from http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2009/02/sneakernet-beats-internet.html
19:04 < fenn> envelope full of microSD cards seems like a reasonable solution
19:04 < fenn> especially with a lot of ISP's going with monthly bandwidth caps
19:05 < fenn> i think time warner was going to do a 5GB/mo cap (which frankly, is ridiculously small)
19:07 < fenn> makes you wonder about space colonization; maybe data will be the most valuable transport cargo
19:10 < kanzure-> glad somebody else is worrying about algae efficiency and of the processes
19:11 < kanzure-> the problem is that we're not funded to examine efficiencies, we're funded to do something that might be impossible
19:11 < kanzure-> so it's in our interest to not do those studies, or something
19:11 < kanzure-> I don't know how this works.
19:13 < kanzure-> but it's also because I don't entirely understand how to do the math I guess
19:13 < kanzure-> for instance, killowatt hours have never ever made sense to me
19:15 < fenn> it's simple
19:16 < fenn> kilowatt is 1000 watts
19:16 < kanzure-> even if I did the analysis, that doesn't mean it's fixed though- because the results will probably show us how much it sucks
19:16 < kanzure-> yes, I know how much a kilo is :)
19:16 < fenn> 1000 watts for 1 hour is 1 kilowatt*hour
19:16 < kanzure-> right, but they always relate this in some weird way to joules
19:16 < kanzure-> that doesn't dimensionally make sense or something
19:16 < kanzure-> but they use it for selling electricity
19:16 < fenn> joule is a watt*second
19:17 < fenn> so a kilowatt hour is 3,600,000 joules
19:17 < kanzure-> right
19:17 < kanzure-> maybe there's something else that was supposedly confusing
19:17 < fenn> i think they should get rid of the "joule" unit and just call it W*s, "wuss" :P
19:18 < kanzure-> or the fact that no device really tells you how many watts it takes to operate when it's operating in such and such mode?
19:18 < fenn> manufacturers are getting better about that
19:18 < kanzure-> I'm tempted to get Andrew Hessel to hire me on to an open source synthetic biology microalgae biofuel project
19:18 < kanzure-> screw this closed/proprietary crap
19:18 < fenn> but specmanship will never die, so there's still a need for independent testing
19:19 < fenn> good luck finding one
19:19 < kanzure-> finding what?
19:19 < fenn> open source synthetic biology project with money
19:19 < kanzure-> he has a source of funding for one.
19:19 < fenn> one that's not iGEM
19:19 < kanzure-> right
19:19 < kanzure-> that's him :)
19:22 < fenn> the point of the article was that there are much more things going into algae biofuel production than just the algae
19:22 < kanzure-> right
19:22 < fenn> so even if the algae is 'proprietary' it doesn't matter
19:22 < kanzure-> no, I'm talking about the harvesting and lysis machinery
19:22 < kanzure-> that's really the bottleneck
19:23 < kanzure-> algae naturally grows- growth optimization only matters to some extent- it's *made* to grow
19:23 < fenn> then why bring synthetic biology into it?
19:23 < kanzure-> "ask it nicely to release its lipids"
19:23 < fenn> 'reusable' algae?
19:23 < kanzure-> and less effort involved with lysing it or killing it or whatever
19:23 < fenn> btw i linked to something about using diatomaceous earth for that, dunno if you ever saw that
19:24 < kanzure-> no?
19:24 < fenn> well i have no idea where it went
19:24 < kanzure-> linkhunters
19:24 < fenn> maybe it was on diybio?
19:25 < kanzure-> what I want to do is come up with some theoretical curves and then some actual curves for testing different hardware for lysis and harvesting
19:25 < kanzure-> for some reason we're now moving on to foam fractionation (or something similar to it)
19:25 < kanzure-> with this giant machine with little to no specs 
19:27 < kanzure> also, adding in some natural flocculation protein would be neat
19:28 < kanzure> there's also some co-species methods where a bacteria or other plant thingy produces flocculants that will make the algae clump together
19:28 < kanzure> which makes harvesting as easy as running a big giant stick through the pond.
19:40 < kanzure> thesis on automated gear train design - (I guess that means I'm done with the visualizer??) 
19:40 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/books/papers/Automated%20Synthesis%20and%20Optimization%20of%20Gear%20Train%20Topologies%20-%20Albert%20Swantner%20-%202009.pdf
20:04 < kanzure> http://code.google.com/p/sfepy/ simple finite elements for python
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20:04 < kanzure> hey RandIter.
20:05 < RandIter> hello
20:05 < RandIter> just came to see what you guys are up to
20:11 < kanzure> today?
20:12 < kanzure> DIY atom-scale resolution microscopy, algae farms, and I just learned about AHA! - the Austin Hackers Association
20:32 < fenn> how do i get cp or tar to preserve everything? it always messes up the permissions and creation time (yes i've tried cp -a)
20:32 < fenn> grr now it works of course, after i ask
20:32 < fenn> gremlins
20:35 < kanzure> zip has always preserved creation times for me, fwiw
20:44 < fenn> oh i see.. cp -a changes the permissions back to original when it's done copying
20:44 < kanzure> hrm. octave versus sympy for doing some mathematical modeling?
20:45 < fenn> what kind of modeling?
20:46 < kanzure> meh, just a basic multivariable model of how much algae you'd have to grow to get how much energy if some volume of algae has such and such growth phase curves and blah blah blah
20:46 < fenn> ah
20:46 < kanzure> plus maybe weather consideration stuff.
20:46 < fenn> i was just thinking about how to do differential equations the other day
20:46 < fenn> i guess maxima or some mathematica clone would be the standard solution
20:46 < kanzure> sympy is a symbolic package, but I don't think I need to do symbolic stuff
20:46 < kanzure> so octave would be it then. hm.
20:47 < fenn> have you used octave/matlab before?
20:49 < kanzure> I've used octave a bit
20:54 < fenn>  hm i thought it was a requirement that theses had pretty latex equations
20:57 < kanzure> he sent it to me in docx format
20:57 < kanzure> which is Microsoft's latest way of raping the internet
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21:01 < kanzure> Hey genehacker.
21:01 < genehacker> yes I know
21:01 < genehacker> AHA
21:02 < genehacker> do they do software primarily or the other type?
21:04 < kanzure> seems like "the other type"
21:06 < fenn> "security professionals"
21:06 -!- DrTread [n=chatzill@cpe-70-112-223-97.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap
21:06 < genehacker> security
21:07 < kanzure> hey DrTread
21:07 < DrTread> hey, bryan
21:08 < fenn> DrTread: i was supposed to ask you something but i forget what it was..
21:09 < fenn> something about fab lab
21:09 < fenn> perhaps you should just send an email to lfilip@mac.com instead of me acting as proxy messenger
21:09 < DrTread> ooops... i didn't use your secret code name!
21:09 < DrTread> :-x
21:09 < DrTread> anything to do with airspeed velocity of swallows?
21:09 < DrTread> ah.
21:09 < DrTread> ok.
21:10 < fenn> i hate not having a wiki or mailing list.. this is stupid
21:10 < DrTread> regarding fab stuff... one of my tweeple posted a link to a journal of interesting shapes...
21:10 < RandIter> kanzure: considered numpy as an alternative to octave?
21:10 < DrTread> http://www.isama.org/hyperseeing/
21:11 < DrTread> mmmmm.... numpy
21:11 < DrTread> and scipy
21:11 < kanzure> fenn: should we have a mailing list?
21:11 < fenn> guess i'm burned out on all that 'ooo math surfaces' stuff
21:11 < kanzure> fenn: this is getting kind of ridiculous, with all of these mailing lists
21:12 < fenn> yes there should be a mailing list
21:12 < kanzure> for what now?
21:12 < kanzure> should I attempt to revive the old hplusroadmap mailing list?
21:12 < kanzure> even though it had no real purpose?
21:12 < DrTread> as i'll be the proud owner of a MakerBot by the end of this week, i'm getting a new interest in math surfaces
21:12 < fenn> not for philisophy or whatever, just for basic announcements and so i'm not shuttling emails around between people
21:12 < kanzure> maybe we need a Bryan Bishop mailing list
21:12 < fenn> er, announcements is wrong
21:12 < fenn> i mean low level discussion that shouldn't be plastered all over the net
21:13 < DrTread> kanzure make it so. you're good at facilitating these things, right?
21:13 < fenn> like 'what next?' or 'come help screw together some scaffolding tuesday at 6pm'
21:13 < kanzure> ah
21:13 < kanzure> for the fablab
21:14 < genehacker> DR TREAD DON'T BUY A MAKERBOT
21:14 < DrTread> 2 late
21:14 < genehacker> it's overpriced
21:14 < genehacker> you can get a CNC mill that can cut metal for about the same price
21:14 < genehacker> besides SKYNET designed some parts for makerbot
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21:15 < genehacker> I don't trust skynet
21:15 < DrTread> hmmm... i have been lazy about building anything myself. buying a makerbot was a chance to jumpstart my own making things
21:16 < DrTread> ah.
21:16 < kanzure> hrm, I might be able to get hessel in here
21:16 < genehacker> well have fun
21:16 < DrTread> interesting discussion over coffee/adult beverage
21:16 < DrTread> ok, genehacker, laser cutter: build one myself or buy an epilog or other unit?
21:17 < DrTread> (with fab lab peeps help, of course)
21:17 < kanzure> did anyone else besides fenn see the SLS-3D-printing-of-the-desert-from-orbit thingy I posted?
21:17 < genehacker> DrTread, are you on the campus?
21:17 < DrTread> nope.
21:17 < genehacker> oh yeah
21:17 < genehacker> damn
21:17 < genehacker> well guess you can't use the laser cutter here then
21:17 -!- I}ruid_ [n=druid@caughq.org] has joined #hplusroadmap
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21:17 < DrTread> true enough.
21:18 < kanzure> Hey I}ruid.
21:18 < fenn> a haq'r!
21:18 < genehacker> saw that SLS from space
21:18 < I}ruid> oh noes! where???
21:18  * I}ruid looks aroudn
21:18 < kanzure> to your left
21:18 < kanzure> he's a hacker-ninja
21:18  * fenn points at the wall behind I}ruid 
21:18 < DrTread> I}ruid, the hacker-ninja!
21:18 < genehacker> it's already too late if you see the ninja
21:18 < kanzure> I}ruid: we were just talking about SLS 3D printing of the deserts from orbit.
21:18 < DrTread> yes, i've googlestalked him since receiving email
21:19 < genehacker> how does the from orbit part work?
21:19 < kanzure> we all have :)
21:19 < I}ruid> 3D printing, as in object fabrication with those new-fangled printers?
21:19 < kanzure> genehacker: laser
21:19 < kanzure> I}ruid: nope, there is a bacteria that turns sand into sandstone
21:19 < I}ruid> ahhh
21:19 < I}ruid> neat.
21:19 < kanzure> so if you gate that metabolic reaction with a laser-sensitive protein
21:19 < kanzure> and then laser-activate the bacteria ..
21:19 < genehacker> fusion powered laser?
21:19 -!- ahessel [n=chatzill@189.169.98.175] has joined #hplusroadmap
21:19 < kanzure> why would it be fusion powered?
21:19 < kanzure> hey ahessel.
21:19 < fenn> <insert technobabble step here>
21:19 < ahessel> jey
21:19 < ahessel> hey
21:19 < I}ruid> so the laser comes from orbit
21:19 < kanzure> ahessel: we're currently talking about 3D printing of deserts from orbit.
21:19 < I}ruid> and you sandstone up some dope logos in the desert
21:20 < DrTread> fusion? i thought it was a Tc-99m gamma ray lazor?
21:20 < genehacker> you might be able to take advantage of barchans to spread your bacteria
21:20 < kanzure> well, you could also use a very tall tower
21:20 < fenn> DrTread: it's a neutron pumped lazor
21:20 < genehacker> sigh, if only we could get some Tc-99
21:20 < DrTread> ah.
21:20 < kanzure> so you don't have to be in orbit necessarily
21:20 < I}ruid> how would you spread the bacteria well enough to make that work?
21:20 < kanzure> although it helps if you want to pattern a large area
21:20 < kanzure> I}ruid: shhh!
21:20 < genehacker> too bad hafnium doesn't work
21:20 < kanzure> the wind?
21:20 < I}ruid> crop duster? (:
21:20 < DrTread> yes, i've been looking for Tc-99 for some time now. damned NRC!
21:21 < DrTread> for purely safe, scientific purposes, of course.
21:21 < genehacker> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barchan
21:21 < genehacker> barchans can self replicate
21:21 < kanzure> " 
21:21 < kanzure> A barchan dune is an arc-shaped sand ridge, comprising well-sorted sand. This type of dune possesses two "horns" that face downwind, with the slip face (the downwind slope) at the angle of repose, or approximately 32 degrees. The upwind side is packed by the wind, and stands at about 15 degrees. Simple barchan dunes may stretch from meters to a hundred meters or so between the tips of the horns."
21:22 < fenn> fire can also 'replicate'
21:22 < kanzure> so can fairies
21:22 < fenn> and ewoks
21:22 < kanzure> nah, they're just little infertile kids
21:22 < fenn> oh
21:22 < I}ruid> in teddy bear suits
21:22 < I}ruid> it's a furry convention up on Endor, y0.
21:23 < genehacker> PURGE PURGE
21:23 < I}ruid> hahah
21:23 < DrTread> **shivers @ thought of Ewok sexxin**
21:23 < genehacker> PURGE
21:23 < I}ruid> good thing I didn't follow that up suggesting that you contemplate the name of the planet in that context.
21:23 < I}ruid> whoops.
21:24 < DrTread> let me run over to /b/ for a minute to get my sanity back.
21:24 < I}ruid> (:
21:24  * I}ruid behaves now
21:24 < genehacker> I don't think /b/ is going to give it back
21:24 < kanzure> I}ruid: yesterday I was going over some do-it-yourself atomic force microscopy stuff.
21:24 < kanzure> hope you like what I forwarded to the list.
21:25 < DrTread> ok, so we know solitons self-replicate. where are you headed with this, kanzure?
21:25 < kanzure> solitons? what?
21:25 < genehacker> we want to make a megastructure
21:25 < kanzure> genehacker was the one who said these "sand thingies" could self-replicate
21:25 < DrTread> solitary waves, of which barchans are an example
21:25 < kanzure> fenn and I disagree
21:25 < DrTread> oh. yes. sorry. :(
21:25 < I}ruid> looks interesting, I'll have to read it when I have more time and am not distracted by tha chatz
21:25 < fenn> it doesn't really matter if it 'replicates' since it's not useful for anything
21:26 < genehacker> guess so
21:26 < DrTread> megastructure, so we can take over the world?
21:26 < kanzure> well. no. not really. but we could fabricate a really really huge dog whistle I guess.
21:26 < fenn> i dont get how they are supposed to remove all the unbonded sand
21:26 < DrTread> and control all the dogs & use them to take over the world? ok... sanity has returned.
21:27 < I}ruid> if you're creating sandstone from orbit by "painting" the desert, you could easily create building components, although sandstone is notoriously weak as a building material
21:27 < kanzure> I}ruid: yes. that's where this started.
21:27 < I}ruid> gotcha...
21:27 < DrTread> sandstone is as weak as its binder
21:27 < kanzure> I}ruid: http://is.gd/tvV7
21:27  * I}ruid missed the beginning of the conversation (:
21:27 < kanzure> I}ruid: that link will fill you in
21:27 < fenn> I}ruid: the original idea was to infuse sand with 'sandstone bacteria' by stabbing pipes into the sand and infusing the volume underground with bactera/nutrient solution
21:28 < genehacker> perhaps we should make a giant wind powered machine that slowly goes across the desert squirting bacteria into the sand
21:28 < kanzure> or just the surface for starters
21:28 < kanzure> genehacker: how would you make sure it covers a certain area
21:28 < fenn> i mean if you have huge machinery available to move sand around, why not just build walls out of cement or something?
21:28 < genehacker> what do you mean?
21:28 < kanzure> genehacker: your machine would be subject to the direction of the wind
21:29 < kanzure> so you would only get some weird pattern of bacterially-active sand
21:29 < genehacker> turbine powered
21:29 < kanzure> which isn't very useful for laser patterning
21:29 < kanzure> turbine powered?
21:29 < genehacker> wind turbine powered
21:29 < genehacker> kite powered
21:29 < fenn> i'm picturing something like a strandbeest
21:30 < kanzure> ooh.
21:30 < genehacker> yeah sorta like that
21:30 < genehacker> kites are better
21:30 < genehacker> get more wind
21:30 < fenn> of course
21:31 < ybit> <random_tweet_of_the_day> http://www.q-linkproducts.com/h_our_technology.shtml :: when i have my open eeg setup, i may test this </random_tweet_of_the_day>
21:31 < genehacker> more POWER
21:31 < fenn> so, you're saying 'move all that sand with wind powered shovels' basically, right?
21:31 < kanzure> ybit: am I following you? http://twitter.com/kanzure
21:32 < ybit> kanzure, i dunno
21:32 < ybit> http://twitter.com/heathmatlock
21:32 < fenn> ybit: qlink, although it sounds good, is a total scam. the circuit isn't actually even a circuit
21:32 < ybit> i don't tweet much, just on this channel ;)
21:32 < fenn> it's a resistor with pads that go nowhere, and a coil that goes nowhere
21:32 < kanzure> ok. now I am.
21:32 < fenn> see http://www.badscience.net/wp-content/qlink.JPG
21:33 < ybit> thanks fenn, i was looking for specs
21:33 < genehacker> http://www.darkroastedblend.com/2006/11/even-bigger-machines-dig-bigger-holes.html
21:33 < genehacker> i'm thinking something like this
21:33 < fenn> for $100 or so they could at least try to do what they claim
21:33 < kanzure> do we have sand submarines yet?
21:33 < genehacker> no
21:33 < ybit> oh, guess i'm still looking for specs :)
21:33 < kanzure> why haven't you made one yet? get on with it.
21:33 < fenn> i mean it wouldn't be hard to make an active damping antenna
21:34 < I}ruid> reference for qlink? what is this device intended to do?
21:34 < kanzure> I}ruid: it's the one that ybit linked to
21:35 < I}ruid> oh, there it is (:
21:35 < I}ruid> the faux HTML threw me off (:
21:35 < genehacker> HAHHAHAHHAHAA
21:35 < genehacker> qlink
21:36 < genehacker> "My intuition and logic suggest that Clarus type products will be an important part of humanity’s future."
21:36 < genehacker> O'RLY?
21:36 < DrTread> **incredulous glare**
21:36 < kanzure> fenn: this might have backfired on me. this is becoming wrongplanet.
21:37 < DrTread> i do know a yoga instructor who wears a qlink. she's not dead yet.
21:37 < I}ruid> well, as long as there's intuition and logic involved...
21:37 < kanzure> why not just build one of the openEEG systems?
21:37 < kanzure> or better yet, the open-rTMS system?
21:38 < genehacker> the heavily regulated underground rogue chemistry sets of the 21st century will instead synthesize new terrestrial compounds, counter-earths and other illegal geosimulants, rare earth anti-elements that might then catalyze a wholesale resurfacing of the world through radical landscape architecture.
21:38 < genehacker> huh?
21:38 < DrTread> intuition & logic alone produced Aristotle, & science suffered for 2000 years. :(
21:39 < kanzure> DrTread: there's actually a mechanism in the brain responsible for intuition and insight, and I was intent on harvesting it
21:39 < genehacker> DAMN YOU ARISTOTLE!
21:39 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/thinking.html are my notes on it
21:39 < DrTread> just don't use Protomatter!
21:39 < kanzure> d-cycloserine is an interesting chemical for those purposes.
21:39 < fenn> philosophy suffered for 2000 years because there was 1500 years of dark ages in between
21:39 < I}ruid> this site is way too new-agey... where's the science?  where's the whitepaper? (:
21:39 < I}ruid> peer review anyone?
21:39 < fenn> I}ruid: please don't waste your time on q-link
21:39 < genehacker> ok well I have to go study for a test AFK
21:39 < fenn> thanks for nothing genehacker 
21:40 < genehacker> thanks for feedback
21:40 < fenn> what people don't realize is that there was only like 200 years of philosophy before all development ceased
21:40 < fenn> then it started back up again in the 18th century
21:40 < I}ruid> once it becomes no longer amusing then I'm wasting my time (:
21:40 < I}ruid> at least right now it's providing the lols
21:42 < fenn> well, western philosophy at least
21:42 < I}ruid> fenn: you talking western philosophy?  cuz I'm pretty sure eastern dominates in longevity
21:42 < I}ruid> hah, beat me to my own comment
21:42 < I}ruid> gg
21:42 < kanzure> holy shit. somebody who uses "gg" still.
21:42 < fenn> is that some kind of usenet thing?
21:42 < kanzure> I heard of it in subnet, so no.
21:42 < kanzure> subspace, I mean
21:43 < I}ruid> no, it's a gamer thing.
21:43 < ybit> good game*
21:43 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SubSpace_(computer_game)
21:43 < ybit> yeah, it's used often
21:43 < I}ruid> it's used almost unconciously by FPS players
21:44 < DrTread> wow. kanzure, for a youngun, you've got quite a memory
21:44 < ybit> :P
21:44 < kanzure> DrTread: I was playing Continuum, the free version of Subspace 
21:44 < I}ruid> as soon as a match ends there's an obligitory flood of "gg"'s in the in-game-chat
21:44 < kanzure> yep.
21:44 < I}ruid> I blame little-league baseball coaches.
21:45 < DrTread> kanzure, you're responsible for my returning to IRC for the first time in 12 years. thx.
21:45 < kanzure> DrTread: sorry :(
21:45 < kanzure> DrTread: but we're sufficiently worthwhile I think
21:45 < kanzure> unless you need me to throw harder problems at you?
21:45 < DrTread> yes, you are, and i'll eventually recover my self-esteem.
21:45 < DrTread> ;)
21:45 < kanzure> nope, all of the self-esteem is for me me me
21:46 < ybit> I}ruid: if it's baseball coacheswh to blame, i ask: where's the "potb"? (pat on the butt)
21:46  * fenn mumbles something about self-esteem punks
21:46 < kanzure> ?
21:46 < DrTread> it's my dinner time... bbl
21:47 < kanzure> hm. me too.
21:47 < I}ruid> I still think you should all move to SILC
21:47 < I}ruid> it's far superior to IRC>
21:47 < I}ruid> s/>/./
21:47 < kanzure> you fail at regular expressions
21:47 < I}ruid> hahah yea, I do.
21:47 < I}ruid> s/\>/\./
21:48 < I}ruid> which is funny, since that's all I did for nearly 2 years at TippingPoint
21:48 < I}ruid> well, when I wasn't doing VoIP security research... that was the busywork.
21:48 < fenn> the first one was fine?
21:49 < I}ruid> . is a special character, should be escaped
21:49 < fenn> not in sed
21:49 < fenn> at least not in the second half of substitution
21:49 < I}ruid> ahh true
21:51 < I}ruid> time to make something to eat, bbl
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21:57  * kanzure goes back to modeling an algae growth biofuel thingy
22:00 < I}ruid> I saw a biofuel article today
22:00 < I}ruid> was pairing modified yeast with something, one sec
22:00 < DrTread> back.
22:01 -!- jm|afk [n=jm@p57B9FB40.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
22:01 < I}ruid> http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16989-yeast-and-bacterium-turned-into-gasoline-factory.html
22:03 -!- ahessel [n=chatzill@189.169.98.175] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
22:10 < DrTread> beware of anything that says "cheaper than oil"
22:11 < DrTread> oil is pretty darned cheap (right now, anyway)
22:12 < kanzure> yep, saw it
22:25 < fenn> vegetable oil is cheaper than gasoline
22:25 < fenn> at least when you buy soybean oil at the asian market in 5 gallon jugs
22:27 < fenn> also the street price of gasoline in USA is way lower than it ought to be due to subsidies
22:27 < fenn> look at prices in any other country for more realistic cost
22:28 < DrTread> subsidies, or lack of taxes = lack of internalization of external costs
22:29 < DrTread> if you want subsidies, buy vegetable oil.
22:31 < DrTread> any decisions on the heater material choice? gallium, aluminum, glycerol, etc?
22:35 < fenn> heater? the PCR block?
22:37 < fenn> kanzure: could you snag me some microcentrifuge tubes some time? like 30 of each size (should be two sizes, small and regular)
22:37 < fenn> 4mm and 8mm diameter i think
22:37 < kanzure-> okay.
22:37 < kanzure-> does anyone have some suggestions for interesting things to look at under an AFM scope?
22:38 < DrTread> i have a thousand ideas for an AFM
22:38 < fenn> graphene, liquid zeolite, umm.. yeah just about anything
22:39 < DrTread> in situ tribology
22:39 < kanzure-> I've been looking for some good papers of interesting images
22:39 < kanzure-> but it's not like anybody publishes anything interesting
22:39 < DrTread> pffft
22:39 < kanzure-> because it costs to print even black and white photos
22:39 < DrTread> define interesting
22:39 < kanzure-> not a grid of atoms
22:41 < fenn> i bet a lot of biological materials would be very interesting
22:41 < DrTread> electrically conductivity of DNA strands
22:42 < DrTread> wait... that would require STM
22:42 < kanzure-> well, not necessarily
22:42 < kanzure-> I have a bibliography of papers of AFM DNA sequencing
22:42 < kanzure-> want?
22:44 < kanzure-> or a photo gallery of bacteria would be nice.
22:44 < kanzure-> I was trying to search for bacteriophage morphological diversity the other day
22:44 < kanzure-> but there's only like five shapes that viruses follow
22:44 < fenn> you can do afm over larger areas than usual right? so you could use it in place of a regular light microscope for some things
22:45 < kanzure-> even though there's something like 1E30 viruses on the planet. shouldn't there be more shapes than just a bunch of spheres and rods? damn.
22:45 < fenn> self assembly lends itself to simple shapes
22:45 < kanzure-> tell that to Paul Rothemund.
22:45 < kanzure-> because he's been breaking that particular law.
22:45 < fenn> well, there's no particular reason for evolution to favor more complex shapes
22:46 < fenn> they have to do basically one thing: protect the DNA
22:46 < kanzure-> true, but when using search terms regarding novelty, morphotypes, diversity, etc. etc., something should pop up
22:46 < kanzure-> even just an oddball that somebody found somewhere
22:46 < fenn> i doubt there have even been a large number of viruses and phages studies
22:46 < fenn> studied*
22:46 < kanzure-> thought virology was a huge field?
22:47 < fenn> they only study the interesting ones
22:48 < fenn> i forget the numbers but there's like a gazillion viruses per ml of antarctic sea water
22:48 < fenn> where they come from, nobody knows
22:48 < DrTread> a gazzilion is like a lot, right?
22:48 < fenn> it's less than a quintrillion
22:48 < fenn> but more than a jillion
22:49 < kanzure-> I saw that paper, actually
22:49 < kanzure-> wikipedia references it
22:49 < fenn> on the panspermia page?
22:49 < kanzure-> no
22:49 < kanzure-> the paper on viruses per volume of sea water
22:50 < ybit> what is superkuh's blog url?
22:50 < fenn> there should be a requirement to include scientific mysteries in educational curricula
22:50 < kanzure-> ybit: http://superkuh.ath.cx/
22:50 < fenn> right now it's like nobody even knows what the big problems are in science
22:51 < fenn> unless you are a specialist in the field
22:51 < kanzure-> that's because everybody has been bullshitted by strings and multiple dimensions
22:52 < fenn> those are just explanations
22:52 < DrTread> in texas, the important mystery is how creation happened so fast, and why there are fossils.
22:52 < kanzure-> well, they are obsessed with it.
22:53 < fenn> given any set of observations, there are a number of ways to explain it
22:53 < DrTread> and why Forrest Mimms III is  such an avid creationist.
22:53 < fenn> eh, i forget where i was going with this
22:53 < fenn> DrTread: you'd never know from looking at his webpage
22:53 < DrTread> he doesn't advertise
22:54 < fenn> then he isn't 'avid'
22:54 < DrTread> and he's not a "young earther"
22:54 < DrTread> touche
22:54 < fenn> ah well, if he's not a 'young earther' then it's just semantics
22:54 < fenn> 'did god create the universe? or was it a mysterious point source of near-infinite energy?'
22:55 < fenn> personally i don't care, since it doesn't influence the results
22:55 < kanzure-> gasp, you're ranting just to rant?
22:55 < DrTread> The wingnut echo chamber has recently gone insane over the idea that Eric Pianka, an distinguished and much-loved ecologist at UT, advocates mass genocide by ebola in order to bring down world population. The allegation was leveled by disgruntled creationist Forrest Mims, and rapidly spread to the blogosphere via places like Dembski’s blog (three posts!) and Telic Thoughts, and then went to...
22:55 < DrTread> ...the Drudge Report and caused a national media firestorm appearing in my local paper by Monday morning. I smelled a rat from the beginning, and now I have been proved right. KXAN News36 in Austin, TX, has just debunked the whole thing, and for good measure has posted a 20-minute unedited interview with Pianka which everyone must watch to realize the full depravity of what the wingnuts have...
22:55 < kanzure-> isn't that violating some sort of law
22:55 < DrTread> ...done here. Pianka says several times that Mims is a “crazy kook” that “distorted and changed everything I said.” The death threats that have flooded Pianka and the Texas Academy of Sciences are also a nice touch.
22:55 < DrTread> nope. doesn't influence the results.
22:56 < fenn> 'disgrunted creationist' is just poor reporting
22:56 < fenn> given all the possible descriptions of forrest mims
22:56 < DrTread> yep.
22:56 < DrTread> sorry i brought it up. :(
22:56 < fenn> well i have yet to see any first-hand info on his supposed creationist stance
22:57 < DrTread> fwiw, i still LIKE Mr. Mimms, and he does good science.
22:57 < kanzure-> hm
22:57 < kanzure-> "Self-repair Of Bacterial Cell Wall Against Multiple Puncturings By An AFM Tip"
22:58 < kanzure-> "We report, for the first time, that bacteria survive multiple stabbings by an atomic force microscopy (AFM) tip under physiological conditions"
22:58 < kanzure-> "This experiment, which generated a characteristic puncture curve, was repeated more than 50 times at different locations on the same bacterium."
22:58 < kanzure-> hahah
22:58 < kanzure-> god I love science
22:59 < kanzure-> "MatLab® code was written to analyze the puncture curves, which carry an abundance of information on such characteristics of the bacterium as the surface elasticity, the critical pressure needed to puncture the bacterial cell wall, the interaction of the AFM tip with the interior of the bacterium and the precise width of the bacterium in the physiological environment."
22:59 < DrTread> yes. pitty you can't puncture monkeys like they used to. :(
22:59 < DrTread> bacteria don't have a fan club yet.
22:59 < fenn> i'm a big fan of bacteria
22:59 < fenn> thing is, a monkey isnt much different from a human
23:00 < fenn> so it makes sense to feel sorry for a monkey being stabbed
23:00 < kanzure-> uh?
23:00 < kanzure-> are we trying to rationalize?
23:00 < fenn> rationalize what?
23:00 < kanzure-> feeling sorry for certain things rather than other things?
23:00 < fenn> yes
23:00 < kanzure-> what, wouldn't you uplift all of the bacteria if you could?
23:00 < fenn> there's a logic to it
23:01 < DrTread> yes, yes we are. we are only a few decades post-Tuskegee experiment. 
23:01 < fenn> bacteria are already so far above us it would be poor form to try to improve them
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23:03 < fenn> i don't mean individual cells, i mean the network
23:04 < kanzure-> "regardless of tip geometry and puncturing density varying between 20 and 40 puncturing events per square micrometer. "
23:05 -!- DrTread [n=chatzill@cpe-70-112-223-97.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap
23:05 < DrTread> oh snap! kitty on keyboard
23:05 < DrTread> lost thread.
23:05 < kanzure-> DrTread: we're puncturing bacteria with AFM tips with 20 to 40 puncturing events per square micrometer
23:05 < DrTread> ok.
23:06 < kanzure-> heh
23:06 < DrTread> shall we make our own AFM?
23:06 < DrTread> i've always wanted to.
23:06 < kanzure-> yes.
23:06 < kanzure-> I was surprised the other day with how simple they are
23:06 < DrTread> indeed.
23:06 < kanzure-> fenn suggested using capacitance to detect the bend/deflection in the cantilever tip instead of a laser+photodiode method
23:07 < kanzure-> and I have an old collection of papers on diy-ways to make sharp cantilever probe tip thingies
23:07 < kanzure-> and then the $100 STM guy's "cut a piezo tweet into four sections and wire them up separately" method (just using a pocket knife + solder + wires)
23:08 < kanzure-> and "z-xis approach mechanism consisting entirely of a screw" method.
23:08 < fenn> capacitance makes sense for a lot of reasons: it's cheap, easy to build, doesn't require any added weight to the cantilever, and gives you an analog value (instead of digital like a photodiode strip would)
23:08 < DrTread> ok.
23:08 < kanzure-> the problem is that I'm rusty with my electronics.
23:08 < fenn> you never learned electronics
23:08 < DrTread> but capacitance requires AC to measure, doesn't it?
23:08 < kanzure-> not true
23:08 < DrTread> Pffft
23:09 < kanzure-> well, I took classes, but I didn't learn much from them
23:09 < DrTread> read Forrest Mimms' books. :)
23:09 < DrTread> they're great!
23:09 < fenn> DrTread: you set up a resonant circuit, (LCR circuit)
23:09 < kanzure-> I used to be an electronics kid, but..
23:09  * kanzure- still hasn't got through "The Art of Electronics" entirely
23:09 < fenn> then measure the frequency somehow
23:09 < fenn> the 'somehow' is where there are a lot of options
23:09 < DrTread> right. so you have to pick a frequency that will make the tip resonate at a useful frequency
23:09 < fenn> no
23:09 < fenn> it doesn't move the tip
23:10 < DrTread> or not at all?
23:10 < fenn> electrical resonance not mechanical
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23:10 < kanzure-> the tip is stationary
23:10 < kanzure-> the sample is attached to a piezo
23:10 < DrTread> and just how does a capacitor plate (the tip) not experience a mechanical force from the electrostatic charge?
23:10 < kanzure-> the piezo moves the sample.
23:11 < DrTread> yes, that's correct, but so does every other force field.
23:11 < fenn> DrTread: it's a tiny amount charge
23:11 < DrTread> and a tiny tip :)
23:11 < DrTread> most AFMs are run in an oscillatory mode, anyway
23:11 < DrTread> unless you are measuring a very hard surface (array of atoms = boring)
23:12 < DrTread> the z-axis moves in and out of contact with the surface
23:12 < kanzure-> AFM bacteria puncturing diagram: http://heybryan.org/books/papers/puncturing_bacteria_AFM_probe.gif
23:12 < DrTread> as the x- and y- are scanned
23:12 < kanzure-> RAPE
23:12 < fenn> i thought they used PID to keep the 'altitude' constant
23:12 < fenn> so PID would keep it from oscillating
23:13 < DrTread> there are a number of ways of doing it, but constant altitude is difficult for soft objects
23:13 < DrTread> bacteria squish
23:14 < DrTread> I love the picture... there are visible molecules in the membrane, but the AFM tip is a perfectly smooth elipsoid
23:14 < kanzure-> hah
23:15 < DrTread> some time back, i bought a bag of 100 bare piezo discs from Goldmine for just this purpose.
23:15 < DrTread> now where did i put them...
23:15 < fenn> in a ziploc bag
23:16 < DrTread> good. good. now, where's that bag?
23:16 < fenn> i sense that .. the bag may be.. located in ... a cardboard box
23:16 < kanzure-> your jedi powers are weak, old man
23:16 < DrTread> ooooh, you're on to something!
23:16 < kanzure-> heh.
23:16 < kanzure-> DrTread: you don't have an inventory system?
23:16 < DrTread> now all i have to do is look in every cardboard box
23:16 < kanzure-> inventory. system.
23:17 < DrTread> HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH
23:17 < DrTread> ha
23:17 < kanzure-> :(
23:17 < DrTread> ha
23:17 < fenn> we can help
23:17 < kanzure-> that's kinda what we're here for
23:17 < DrTread> :D
23:17 < DrTread> cool!
23:17 < fenn> but first you need to realize that there's a problem
23:17 < kanzure-> hah
23:17 < DrTread> come on over! take my stuff!!!
23:17 < kanzure-> really?
23:17 < kanzure-> may I?
23:17 < DrTread> i need to get rid of lots of it!
23:17 < DrTread> yes
23:17 < DrTread> please
23:17 < fenn> ^-^
23:18 < kanzure-> I can have a guy at your door in 15 minutes.
23:18 < DrTread> you're on :)
23:18 < kanzure-> ppst, fenn..
23:18 < kanzure-> heh'
23:18 < fenn> am i "the guy"?
23:18 < kanzure-> pretty much.
23:19 < fenn> well, all right i guess
23:19 < DrTread> squeee
23:19 < fenn> what i really meant was making an inventory system for him
23:19 < DrTread> oh.
23:19 < kanzure-> right right
23:20 < DrTread> my garage, library, dining room & one bedroom are jammed with stuff. most of it was acquired with intentions of hacking
23:20 < fenn> not consumer junk i hope
23:20 < kanzure-> hm. you haven't met david yet have you, fenn?
23:20 < DrTread> oh, no! University of Michigan property disposition junk!
23:20 < fenn> no
23:22 < fenn> kanzure-: some people *cough ahem hrm* save stuff like vacuum cleaners or inkjet printers with the intent of making something useful out of them
23:22 < kanzure-> right.
23:23 < DrTread> have those, too. :(
23:23 < kanzure-> I'm still confused about how to get everything organized here in austin
23:24 < kanzure-> hell, jonathan cline still hasn't even met with you yet.
23:24 < kanzure-> and then I get into thinking about combinatorial meetups and such
23:24 < kanzure-> and it's just hard to get everything happening
23:24 < fenn> that's what this fab lab is suposed to be for right?
23:24 < kanzure-> but then I don't want to bother with a new mailing list either really
23:24 < kanzure-> hrm
23:24 < kanzure-> but then it's just yet another new mailing list or something obscure
23:24 < fenn> no, it's not a mailing list at all
23:25 < DrTread> if it's a real fab lab, then it won't be obscure.
23:25 < fenn> it's a physical space
23:25 < kanzure-> i'm talking about a way to organize things
23:25 < DrTread> just create a Twitter hashtag
23:25 < DrTread> problem solved.
23:25 < kanzure-> urhm.
23:25 < fenn> ugh please not twitter
23:25 < kanzure-> no.
23:25 < DrTread> why not? it's good enough for Oprah
23:25 < fenn> i'd learn how to use RSS if there was sufficient motive
23:26 < kanzure-> I don't know if RSS is sufficient- don't we want more than announce capabilities?
23:26 < kanzure-> maybe I just need to be better at keeping up with the austin peoples
23:26 < kanzure-> going through the whole fablab spiell over and over again can get, painful
23:26 < kanzure-> because I have to remember where each person is coming from
23:27 < kanzure-> for instance, cline was actually somewhat clueless
23:27 < kanzure-> since he's coming from a very "purely" diybio/synbio perspective
23:27 < kanzure-> even though he more or less fits the bill..
23:27 -!- xp_prg [n=xp_prg3@c-24-130-14-113.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
23:28 < kanzure-> and the austin geek website thingy hasn't been very helpful in organizing things either
23:28 < kanzure-> jon lebkowsky must not be moving quickly enough, or something
23:28 < kanzure-> or too focused on 'social media' crap
23:31 < DrTread> i need to step away from the computer for a bit. i'll keep it open...
23:38 < kanzure-> there is no away. only the silicon way.
23:39 < kanzure-> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Electron_microscope_images
23:53 < fenn> add "pressure cell" to your algae lysis method list
23:54 < DrTread> back, but for how long?
23:54 < fenn> you pump water at high pressure through a tiny hole, and the pressure change as they exit the hole causes cells to explode
23:54 < DrTread> fenn, that's my favorite method.
23:54 < fenn> it's so elegant :P
23:54 < DrTread> yes, in a medieval torture chamber sort of elegance way
23:55 < kanzure-> fenn: but I was the one who told you about that method
23:55 < kanzure-> in the literature it's called fluid shear force lysis or something
23:55 < kanzure-> (minus "lysis" in the name of the method)
23:56 < kanzure-> we (by that I mean, not me) are also building an osmotic pressure chamber too.
23:56 < DrTread> pouring salt on wounds?
23:56 < kanzure-> (not the same thing though)
23:56 < kanzure-> what?
23:56 < DrTread> osmotic pressure
23:57 < fenn> it's usually fresh water, if you want them to lyse
23:57 < DrTread> true.
23:57 < fenn> not that i know why they would call it a chamber
23:57 < DrTread> you want them to blow up, not shrivel
23:58 < fenn> the electromagnetic method is interesting
23:58 < fenn> reminds me of doctor hulda clark quackery
23:58 < DrTread> sorry kids, but this old man needs to go to bed now. he turns into a pumpkin in 45 seconds
23:58 < kanzure-> fenn, did you not see the powerpoint presentation?
23:58 < fenn> tell the fairy i miss her
23:58 < kanzure-> presentation: http://heybryan.org/bioreactor/2008-10-21%20Algal%20biomass%20extraction%20presentation.ppt
23:59 < DrTread> will do. **poof**
23:59 < fenn> kanzure-: could you pdf-ify that?
23:59  * kanzure- grumbles something about having to move chairs because he doesn't remember how to force soffice to do that remotely