--- Day changed Sat May 09 2009 00:00 < kanzure-> ah yes, the classic FUCK folder: http://heybryan.org/books/ellingtonlab/Lord_Vader_stuff/FUCK/ 00:06 < kanzure-> hm, this is interesting 00:06 < kanzure-> http://heybryan.org/books/ellingtonlab/Lord_Vader_stuff/From%20Scott/cantilever%20papers/ 00:07 < kanzure-> see this: http://heybryan.org/books/ellingtonlab/Lord_Vader_stuff/From%20Scott/cantilever%20papers/early%20Si%20cantilever.pdf 00:07 < kanzure-> "early Si cantilever" 00:07 < kanzure-> based off of diffraction grating. 00:09 < kanzure-> interesting 00:09 < kanzure-> http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~mfogg/pioneer.htm 00:09 < kanzure-> Pioneer Organisms Nominated for Terraforming 00:31 -!- PeerInfinity [n=someone@216.36.180.162] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:35 -!- katsmeow is now known as katsmeow-afk 01:17 -!- duzt [n=duzt@dsl093-216-054.aus1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 01:28 -!- kanzure- [n=bryan@66.112.232.37] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:29 -!- dizt [n=duzt@dsl093-216-054.aus1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:55 -!- cis-action [n=cis-acti@146-115-127-170.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 03:27 -!- any42847552 [n=someone@99.194.250.180] has joined #hplusroadmap 03:27 -!- any42847552 [n=someone@99.194.250.180] has quit [Client Quit] 03:27 -!- any07063651 [n=someone@99.194.250.180] has joined #hplusroadmap 03:38 -!- katsmeow-afk [n=someone@75-120-19-115.dyn.centurytel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:21 -!- DrTread [n=irchon@adsl-71-145-179-141.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 04:24 -!- DrTread [n=irchon@adsl-71-145-179-141.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:44 -!- any94651324 [n=someone@99.194.252.195] has joined #hplusroadmap 06:46 -!- samrose [n=samrose@c-24-11-214-181.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 07:01 -!- any07063651 [n=someone@99.194.250.180] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:02 -!- jm|space [n=jm@p57B9CEEA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 08:50 -!- jm [n=jm@p57B9CEEA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #hplusroadmap 08:59 -!- elias` [n=me@194.81.255.254] has joined #hplusroadmap 09:32 < kanzure> server is going down until tuesday (maybe) 09:33 < fenn> moving? 09:33 < kanzure> yes --- Log closed Sat May 09 09:36:26 2009 --- Log opened Sat May 23 23:01:57 2009 23:01 -!- ultraleibniz [n=bryan@cpe-66-68-183-235.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #hplusroadmap 23:01 -!- Irssi: #hplusroadmap: Total of 21 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 21 normal] 23:02 -!- Irssi: Join to #hplusroadmap was synced in 4 secs 23:02 < fenn> what up my leibnizzle 23:02 < kanzure> yee 23:03 < kanzure> I sincerely apologize for my mediawiki installation. (seriously) 23:05 < fenn> anyone have an old laptop they dont use? 23:05 < kanzure> yes 23:05 < fenn> is it large and heavy? 23:05 < kanzure> yes 23:05 < fenn> hmm 23:05 < ybit> :P 23:05 < ybit> i don't like large and heavy either 23:06 < kanzure> large screen, full keyboard. 23:06 < fenn> i never understood why you'd make a large laptop 23:06 * ybit is considering purchasing the samsung n120 23:06 < kanzure> it's as loud as all fuck though 23:06 < ybit> ..after upgrading this old machine 23:06 < kanzure> hyperthreaded pentium 4 on a laptop <-- bad idea 23:06 < kanzure> but it works pretty well 23:06 < kanzure> just loud :) 23:06 < kanzure> and lacking a power adapter at the moment (~$40+ shipping) 23:06 < ybit> :) 23:06 < kanzure> er, $40 +shipping 23:07 < fenn> my laptop is slow and mechanically falling apart (fatigue cracks in the plastic frame, solder cracking in usb and sound ports) 23:07 < kanzure> no mechanical failure as far as I can tell 23:07 < fenn> but it's small and i know what it can do and can't do 23:07 < kanzure> I have multiple power adapters for this model, but they are all broken in their special ways 23:07 < kanzure> I fixed them a few times each, but they just died beyond my repair skills 23:07 < fenn> i wish all laptops had a 12V 5mm barrel connector 23:08 < kanzure> yeesh. no kidding. 23:08 < ybit> i was saving up for this machine: went to purchase it yesterday and found out it's out of stock for good: http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4527727&Sku=B69-0039 23:08 < kanzure> that old laptop takes 120 V 23:08 < ybit> Asus M3N78 PRO 8GB AMD Barebone Kit - AMD Phenom X4 9500 Quad Core Retail, 8GB DDR2-800 Corsair, 750GB SATA2, Clear Side Mid-Tower, 650W PSU 23:08 < ybit> for only $400 23:08 < kanzure> ybit: god hates you 23:08 < ybit> damn you Tux! 23:08 < fenn> i would probably just get a netbook but i'm trying to make this wearable thing with a beagle and myvu 23:09 < ybit> or Zeus, whomever your god may be.. 23:09 < kanzure> netbook keyboards suck 23:09 < fenn> the functionality would overlap too much and it seems like giving up to me, which i dont want to do 23:09 < ybit> but the n120 is fullsize laptop 23:09 < ybit> ..keyboard 23:09 < kanzure> by "fullsize" do you mean "fits real human hands" or "well, it has all of the keys. if you squint." 23:09 < ybit> first option 23:09 < ybit> it's why i am considering it 23:10 < ybit> i like netbooks for their weight but can't stand the keyboards 23:10 < kanzure> what's so hard about including the extra plastic 23:10 < fenn> the whole point is that they're small and cute 23:10 < kanzure> am I small and cute? 23:10 < ybit> :P 23:10 < fenn> is that a trick question? 23:11 < kanzure> don't know 23:11 < kanzure> um, so, that 20 ft ethernet cable actually wraps around my whole apartment 23:11 < kanzure> so I have a box in the other room wired up :) 23:11 < kanzure> just need to get the server up. 23:19 < fenn> did you see that spam to diybio? 23:19 < ybit> yeah 23:20 < fenn> dunno bout y'all but i'm skeered 23:20 < ybit> need an add-on to the browser which shows a preview of all links in a sidebar.. i know it exists somewhere. problem is, you are giving your i.p. address away, would need some type of proxy as an middle man 23:20 < ybit> s/an/a 23:21 < kanzure> do you mean to om? 23:21 < ybit> i was thinking of diybio a few days ago 23:21 < fenn> the spam to om in the last 5 mins or so just reminded me, that's all 23:22 < fenn> http://groups.google.com/group/diybio/browse_thread/thread/8ec765a9b681f6ef 23:22 < kanzure> fenn: what do I do since diybio is becoming a trainwreck 23:23 < kanzure> it seems that I can't write XML protocols fast enough to turn the train around 23:23 < fenn> normally in this situation i'd say "gather together the people you trust and who are competent and start a new group" but the smart competent people are just as caught up in it as everyone else 23:23 < kanzure> even the people that claim to know XML or know how to "get stuff done" aren't wanting to get stuff done 23:23 < fenn> oh, that train wreck 23:23 < kanzure> well I'm extrapolating that to the broader situation 23:23 < fenn> thought you meant the ethics/self-imposed regulation trainwreck 23:23 < kanzure> I think that package maintainers for diybio would fix a lot of things 23:23 < kanzure> right 23:24 < kanzure> package maintenance and a package system would solve a bunch of that bullshit 23:24 < fenn> would it? 23:24 < kanzure> if people understood it.. 23:24 < fenn> why do you think so? 23:24 < kanzure> instead of making diybio a super-organization that will Solve Everything Ever, 23:24 < kanzure> it would have a very particular architecture 23:24 < fenn> hmm 23:24 < fenn> what if people start making bird watching packages? 23:25 < kanzure> apt-get install goggles goggles-docs ? 23:25 < fenn> it was a metaphor 23:25 < kanzure> there are indeed criteria for inclusion of packages into debian, for instance 23:25 < kanzure> and many distributions pop up because of disputes on those notes 23:25 < fenn> supposedly bird-watching is "just as diybio as synthetic bioengineering" 23:25 < kanzure> but ultimately that's just for the main repositories or branding or whatever 23:25 < kanzure> it's not like the packages won't exist elsewhere 23:26 < fenn> yeah but how do you prevent mission creep in your own organization 23:26 < kanzure> fork()ing. 23:26 < fenn> without becoming a tyrannical dictator 23:26 < kanzure> hrm. 23:26 < fenn> sort of silly to start off something by forking 23:27 < kanzure> well, in the case of debian you get to throw up your own small mirrors for your packages or whatever 23:27 < fenn> 1) fork 2) ??? 3) PROFIT! 23:27 < kanzure> or just upload a file to a server somewhere (the .deb file) 23:27 < kanzure> 1) fork 2) include the package in the main repository, except under your brand 3) let people use those repositories. 23:27 < kanzure> now it's accessible, yay for !censorship 23:27 < fenn> unfortunately the debian repository structure makes setting up your own branch a pain in the ass 23:28 < kanzure> really? I thought there was a script for that 23:28 < fenn> oh. maybe there is 23:28 < fenn> i've just seen lots of developer aggravation in the emc project about repositories 23:29 < fenn> i mean really there shouldnt be such a thing as a package maintainer 23:29 < fenn> people should submit patches to a package for distribution which get applied by distribution maintainers 23:30 * fenn wonders how to explain that 23:30 < fenn> all the day to day package maintainer stuff shouldnt exist, is what i'm trying to say 23:30 < kanzure> yeah, sure. 23:30 < kanzure> I'm not a debian developer so I don't actually know how debian backend runs 23:30 < kanzure> but apparently they have their own servers and are really strict about their PGP keys and rings and such 23:31 < fenn> well that makes sense if you think about it 23:31 < kanzure> the day-to-day stuff, like patch application, should be automatic (although maybe after review) 23:31 < kanzure> dont' know how to word that in terms of non-centralized repos though 23:31 < fenn> peer review, basically 23:31 < fenn> hm 23:31 < kanzure> with centralized hosting of the patches or something? 23:31 < kanzure> how does that work with git? 23:31 < kanzure> when there's 40 different options for patches at a certain level in the history 23:32 < fenn> someone you trust has to actually look at the code and say 'yes its good and wont infect you with CIA spyware' 23:32 < kanzure> or something 23:32 * kanzure infects CIA. haha, russia! 23:32 < fenn> in russia you infect cia spyware! erm. yeah. 23:33 < kanzure> I'm sure they already do that :/ 23:33 * fenn exhibits meme-induced twitches 23:33 < fenn> so anyway back to diybio 23:33 < kanzure> heh 23:34 < fenn> how do we get people to actually do something productive? 23:34 < kanzure> make a super secret group of super-awesome people that everyone wants to be a part of? 23:34 < fenn> cowell said he was writing something up in xml 23:34 < kanzure> that's how somethingawful-types usually do it 23:34 < kanzure> I doubt it 23:34 < kanzure> he said it, but I don't trust him 23:35 < fenn> me either, because i saw what your example file was and the semantic structure behind it was nowhere near developed 23:35 < kanzure> right 23:35 < kanzure> there was also a ton of shit wrong with the pcr protocol content itself in there 23:35 < kanzure> (which nobody called me on) 23:36 < fenn> you're basically trying to create a new standard, but the amount of consideration that should go into it is too much for one person 23:36 < kanzure> sure 23:36 < kanzure> it needs lots of examples that break it or something 23:36 < fenn> and there should be some kind of validation scripts like w3c provides 23:36 < kanzure> (examples which I don't know about) 23:37 < fenn> is that just unit testing? 23:37 < kanzure> well, xml validation stuff is simple, but that sort of validation doesn't tell me anything about whether or not it biologically makes sense 23:37 < kanzure> yeah 23:37 < fenn> ok 23:37 < fenn> so semantic validation 23:37 < fenn> i know semantic is your favorite word 23:37 < kanzure> there are all sorts of XML checkers out there. isn't a big deal .. 23:37 < fenn> you say that about everything 23:37 < kanzure> "here's the DTD. here's a file. does it work?" 23:38 < kanzure> you kidding? 23:38 < kanzure> load something up in firefox 23:38 < kanzure> it parses and complains at you 23:38 < fenn> 'moon colonization? not a big deal, see ' 23:38 < kanzure> (if there's something broken) 23:38 < fenn> just because it's been talked about doesnt mean its not a big deal 23:38 * kanzure actually does have a moon colonization linkdump 23:38 < kanzure> but I've *done it* 23:38 < fenn> i have yet to see a semantic system that doesnt totally suck 23:38 < kanzure> it's not as useful as you think it is 23:39 < kanzure> go write an XML file with a deliberate error in it 23:39 < fenn> DTD is just syntax 23:39 < kanzure> load it up in firefox 23:39 < kanzure> yeah 23:39 < fenn> i'm talking about semantic errors 23:39 < kanzure> what? 23:39 < fenn> you understand the difference? it's a computer programming thing 23:39 < fenn> a syntactically correct program will run 23:39 < fenn> a semantically correct program will do the wrong thing 23:39 < kanzure> sure 23:39 < fenn> er, incorrect* 23:39 < kanzure> bah, we have no magic "it does the right thing" program-checker 23:40 < kanzure> but we don't need that really 23:40 < fenn> see my sentence was semantically incorrect but syntactically correct 23:40 < fenn> ah but we do need that 23:40 < kanzure> yes, but it's possible to progress without it 23:41 < kanzure> it's possible to progress without ai 23:41 < fenn> it's not ai 23:41 < kanzure> is it friendly? 23:41 < fenn> it's insurance against stupid lazy humans 23:41 < fenn> who dont give a shit about whether it's right or not 23:41 < kanzure> maybe you could give me an example of what you mean 23:42 < kanzure> do you mean heuristic checking of "common bad shit in a protocol that should be flagged" 23:42 < fenn> ok say you have a protocol that says 'add 2 microliters DNA to 50 microliters water' 23:42 < fenn> now it sounds ok to lazy human, because they have common-sense filters 23:42 < fenn> but you can't add 2 microliters to 50 microliters 23:42 < fenn> you have to add 2 microliters to a test tube or something 23:42 < kanzure> is this as terrible an example as I suspect it is? 23:42 < fenn> yes 23:43 < fenn> that's really just a syntax error 23:43 < kanzure> ok. how about acid to water or water to acid. 23:43 < fenn> those are just rules of thumb (heuristics) 23:43 < fenn> hmm 23:44 < kanzure> anyway. 23:44 < fenn> anyway my point is people will sneak all kinds of garbage past your syntactic checker if they can get away with it 23:44 < kanzure> back to the social issues for a quick second (as much as I hate to bother) 23:44 < ybit> kanzure, you're lab equipment list on mediawiki is about the best list i can find atm for wetlab equipment 23:44 < kanzure> ybit: isn't that sad. :( 23:44 < fenn> it's something to be proud of :) 23:45 < fenn> social issues 23:45 < kanzure> there's also /instrumentation/instru.html 23:45 < kanzure> fenn: right. 23:45 < kanzure> like, what the hell are we to do about diybio 23:45 < kanzure> I mean, I don't know if my participation with those people is beneficial at this point 23:46 < kanzure> simply because they're not interested in listening 23:46 < kanzure> or seem to never have been. 23:46 < kanzure> or interested in helping out / doing work / taking initiative / asking questions, or whatever 23:46 < fenn> some of that is probably due to your knee-jerk writing 23:46 < kanzure> hrm. 23:46 < fenn> most of it is probably wishful thinking and laziness 23:46 < kanzure> should I be more descriptive? 23:47 < kanzure> I mean, I hate to write a whole god damn tutorial on "how to understand what the fuck XML is" 23:47 < kanzure> there are so many tutorials already out there .. this shouldn't be my job. 23:47 < fenn> well, sometimes you sort of blow off a lot of reasonable concerns with 'just write a xml file' 23:48 < fenn> and meanwhile there is no standard for them to follow or even suggestion of forming a working group to define a standard etc 23:48 < kanzure> wtf 23:48 < kanzure> suggestion to form a working group? 23:48 < kanzure> what's wrong with diybio? 23:48 < fenn> diybio is too general 23:48 < fenn> standards are almost always written by special-purpose working groups 23:48 < kanzure> how many groups should I initiate per how many thoughts I generate? 23:49 < fenn> well, i wish this thing already existed.. i mean where did all those billions of dollars go anyway? 23:49 < kanzure> should I be creating groups for different projects, or what 23:49 < kanzure> it's not like you people have a hard enough time keeping up with me as it is 23:49 < kanzure> ("you people" == everyone who is not me.) 23:50 < fenn> take the pcr thermocycler for instance 23:50 < fenn> now only certain people are really interested in that but it was discussed at length on the diybio list 23:50 < kanzure> yeah 23:51 < fenn> however there are no documents that anyone could refer to if they were interested in picking it up later, unless they wanted to dig through huge piles of email 23:51 < fenn> so that's one advantage of forming a special purpose group, you tend to generate 'deliverables' 23:51 < fenn> instead of dragging discussion on forever 23:51 < kanzure> hm. 23:51 < fenn> or at least generating deliverables ought to be a focus 23:51 < fenn> whereas diybio isn't set up to have an end product at all 23:51 < kanzure> well usually that's because people bark at everyone else for deadlines or stuff to write about I guess 23:52 < kanzure> I see. 23:52 < fenn> xml protocols is just more 'interesting teatime discussion material' 23:52 < kanzure> in the debian community they actually have some social protocols for talking between developer groups 23:52 < kanzure> there are way too many subgroups or whatever, 23:52 < kanzure> but there are ways for developers to ask questions of each other in some formal manner 23:52 < kanzure> and things that happen if nobody replies 23:52 < kanzure> or whatever 23:52 < fenn> i wish the debian structure were more transparent 23:52 < fenn> that graph/diagram was pretty funny 23:53 < kanzure> I have no idea why it works btw. 23:53 < kanzure> maybe they have some magic herd of gnus 23:53 < kanzure> so anyway 23:54 < kanzure> I don't know how to make something with more structure without bullshitting though 23:54 < fenn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Debian-organigram.png 23:54 < kanzure> because we all know how terrible I am at making up deadlines 23:54 < kanzure> wtf 23:54 < fenn> deadlines aren't necessary and wouldnt work anyway 23:54 < kanzure> aren't necessary? 23:54 < kanzure> then how do you force anybody to do anything 23:54 < fenn> this is good too http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Debian-package-cycle.png 23:55 < kanzure> neat. 23:55 < fenn> you dont force anybody to do anything 23:55 < kanzure> but then how does stuff get done 23:55 < fenn> you encourage people to make a commitment to getting it done 23:55 < kanzure> hm. 23:55 < fenn> either publically or privately 23:55 < kanzure> cookies? 23:55 < fenn> i'm not saying it's easy 23:55 < fenn> i mean we're up against the whole fucking capitalist empire here 23:56 < fenn> see when you're in a working group you (as a human) tend to feel an obligation towards that group 23:56 -!- wrldpc [n=worldpea@c-76-19-107-75.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:56 < fenn> it's not logical or easy to predict unless you understand psychology and human emotional needs 23:56 < kanzure> fwiw, most "working groups" seem to me to be like "advisory boards" made up of people that hold honorary positions more than anything else 23:57 < fenn> advisory board is an advisory board 23:57 < fenn> they're different concepts 23:57 < kanzure> hm 23:57 < fenn> maybe people call their group the wrong thing 23:57 < kanzure> maybe I'm unfamiliar with "working groups" made up of programmers/engineers 23:57 < fenn> anyway, the point of a working group is to Get Shit Done 23:57 < kanzure> but who's Shit is it? 23:57 < kanzure> I mean, how do you convince people that it's interesting, or something 23:57 < fenn> that depends on context 23:57 < kanzure> blah 23:58 < fenn> it takes a lot of effort to convince people you have the right idea 23:58 < fenn> which is why your knee-jerk 'just write some xml' emails havent generated any response 23:58 < kanzure> why can't we just grab some debian developers who are sympathetic to our cause 23:59 < fenn> excep perhaps in a few individuals that already understand the principle to begin with, like mlp 23:59 < fenn> well, why dont you? 23:59 < kanzure> because I don't know how to abduct them 23:59 < kanzure> send out an email somewhere? 23:59 < fenn> i dont even know who they are or if they exist 23:59 < kanzure> mystical chocolate-eating creatures of the dark seas of the web