--- Day changed Sun May 31 2009
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04:40 < fenn> all right why are my monitor colors inverted
05:07 < fenn> sigh.. seems to be a spontaneous hardware problem
05:08  * fenn just wants a head up display
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08:32 < kardan|> hey folks, do you know http://makeitfair.org
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09:42 < nsh> can anyone access this: http://www.fasebj.org/cgi/content/abstract/fj.09-131995v1 ?
10:32 < kanzure-> nsh: http://adl.serveftp.org/papers/Design,%20expression,%20and%20characterization%20of%20a%20multivalent,%20combination%20HIV%20microbicide.pdf
10:34 < nsh> thanks man
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12:46 < kanzure-> eventually I need to type out a more thorough plan for the myostatin project
14:44 < kanzure-> http://www.permafacture.org/
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15:01 < kanzure-> found a brain in the austin area who responded to my request for 'mad scientists'
15:03 < kanzure-> called him too, and talked for a while. he wants to build a plasma cutter. (elliot)
15:42 < kanzure-> hm. I need more brains to help me process all of the combinatorial emails that I need to be sending out to update everyone about their projects.
15:42 < kanzure-> I'm thinking of making a mailing list just for my own updates just for people that want to keep track of absolutely everything I do
15:42 < fenn> wasnt that the point of hplusroadmap? :P
15:43 < kanzure-> oh right
15:43 < kanzure-> this is a nice review: http://heybryan.org/books/papers/microfluidics/Continuous%20flow%20separations%20in%20microfluidic%20devices.pdf
15:43 < kanzure-> (looking over some papers to find which software packages they've used)
15:43 < kanzure-> CFD-ACE+ seems to be popular
15:43 < fenn> wow blender has soft body physics
15:43 < kanzure-> deformation simulation ?
15:45 < fenn> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdusMZlBbQ4
15:47 < fenn> looks like it's just mesh based, which leads to sort of a collapsed blood cell look when the object surface self intersects
15:47 < kanzure-> no price on the website for CFD-ACE+
15:47 < kanzure-> http://www.esi-group.com/products/Fluid-Dynamics/cfd-ace
15:48 < fenn> please explain what this means:
15:48 < fenn> so i just had a dream where i was trapped in a VR environment running on my 1996 macintosh with all my old infini-D models
15:48 < fenn> while dreaming i noticed an interesting effect, which was that fluids (air moving fast enough) interacted with "flesh"
15:48 < fenn> so i was wondering if there existed fluid simulators with multiple different types of fluid, and is this being done as a way to simulate 'meat' on top of a rigid skeleton?
15:49 < kanzure-> isn't that what "multiphysics" means?
15:49 < kanzure-> anyway, I think that's called "mass transfer"
15:50 < fenn> mass transfer?
15:50 < kanzure-> where you have some mass in a certain part of the fluid, or it's a different fluid mass within another fluid or something
15:50 < kanzure-> yeah, because there are different fluids with different masses distributed differently throughout the overall fluid medium
15:50 < kanzure-> right?
15:50 < fenn> momentum transfer?
15:50 < kanzure-> oil and water should be a common multi-fluid simulation that people do
15:51 < fenn> multiphysics = "combining chemical kinetics and fluid mechanics" which doesnt sound like what i'm after
15:51 < fenn> yeah you'd think oil and water would have been done to death by now
15:52 < kanzure-> ok, who do I know who I should ask about CFD software
15:52 < kanzure-> rauchwerk definitely, maybe treadwell, 
15:52 < kanzure-> resnick?
15:52 < kanzure-> resnick doesn't seem to do any actual engineering though
15:52 < kanzure-> les? does les know anything?
15:53 < kanzure-> he seemed to know a lot about expensive software packages 
15:53 < fenn> les knows a lot of weird things
15:54 < drazak_> I think 3ds can do the air-flesh interactions, to some degree
15:54 < drazak_> I know it has stuff in it for rendering air-hair
15:55 < fenn> well i was also thinking about how.. you know, meat sags on the skeleton when subjected to g-forces
15:57 < fenn> like imagine you're simulating a basset hound
16:01 < kanzure-> fenn: you coming over tonight?
16:01 < kanzure-> I actually have food this time
16:02 < fenn> sure
16:02 < fenn> i even struggled out of bed early today so that i might be able to sleep tonight (ha)
16:03 < fenn> did you find a "real" grocery store? :)
16:03 < kanzure-> albertson's
16:03 < kanzure-> I don't like how I've become more physical lately
16:03 < kanzure-> but
16:04 < fenn> that's life :\
16:04 < kanzure-> should I re-consider hosting a weekly or monthly meetup or something?
16:04 < fenn> har har
16:04 < kanzure-> because it's getting hard to get people to meet me at the same time each week or something
16:04 < kanzure-> or you guys keep missing each other because you all suck or something
16:04 < kanzure-> on the other hand, I'm not sure rauchwerk would be interested in showing up to listen to a bunch of transhumanists yabber on, for instance
16:04 < kanzure-> blah. too many small groups..
16:05 < fenn> oh, i dont think a jibber jabber session would be productive
16:05 < kanzure-> it probably wouldn't be.
16:05 < kanzure-> what about a file sharing session? or "design schematic sharing session" or something.
16:05 < kanzure-> weren't we just talking about this the other day?
16:05 < kanzure-> this is going nowhere. nevermind.
16:05 < fenn> i'm basically resigned to the next month being sheer boredom and uselessness
16:06 < kanzure-> I'm just angry that I have to be emailing everyone separately and introducing them individually to each other
16:06 < kanzure-> I'll get over it
16:06 < fenn> do you have the power supply to that enormous laptop?
16:06 < kanzure-> three, but none of them work
16:06 < fenn> er. hm
16:06 < kanzure-> two of them have the same problem (cut wires), the other one has some sort of internal problem that I have not diagnosed yet
16:07 < kanzure-> the wires were cut so that I could fix a fourth power supply for it (which has also died)
16:07 < fenn> was the psu to the tablet the original? because it didnt seem to connect electrically very well (have to hold it in)
16:07 < kanzure-> maybe it's not? campbell just handed it over to me
16:08 < kanzure-> I have a soldering iron and some solder and so on, but not much else- so BYOT if you want to take a look and maybe fix one of the adapters
16:08 < kanzure-> or you could possibly convince me to just order one over the internet :p
16:08 < fenn> order a psu?
16:09 < kanzure-> we're talking about the big laptop right?
16:09 < fenn> ya
16:09 < kanzure-> the power adapter?
16:09 < kanzure-> yes, that's how I have more than one
16:09 < kanzure-> fenn: do you have a UT ID card?
16:10 < fenn> yes
16:10 < fenn> my login doesnt work in student labs
16:10 < kanzure-> nah, was asking because of the busses
16:11 < fenn> oh, how does that work btw
16:11 < kanzure-> heh, I've been paying out the nose for the bus rides
16:12 < kanzure-> but it turns out the ID cards can be swiped for a free ride
16:13 < fenn> ah good it works for staff too
16:13 < fenn> for 'main line' at least
16:14 < kanzure-> ok maybe I need to start keeping a giant matrix/grid and start marking off what I've told each person 
16:15 < kanzure-> "mom - transhumanism? [ check ]"
16:15 < drazak_> lol
16:15 < kanzure-> "andrew hessel - pcr thermocycler device patents went through? [check]" "mom? [no]"
16:15 < kanzure-> seriously though
16:15 < drazak_> no, I know, I've thought of doing that before too
16:15 < kanzure-> why didn't you?
16:15 < fenn> "talk to your parents about transhumanism, before it's too late'
16:16 < kanzure-> UPDATE: "talk to remaining parent about transhumanism, before it's too late"
16:16 < kanzure-> heh
16:16 < drazak_> because I'd put stuff on there that I wouldn't want people to see, and if it's digital, people can see it
16:16 < drazak_> people, meaning people on the list
16:16 < kanzure-> yeah so I have a huge issue figuring out what's supposed to be private or not or whatever
16:16 < kanzure-> or who gets to see what or who doesn't
16:17 < drazak_> mhmm
16:17 < kanzure-> like, should I be hiding from my professors that I'm a super open source hardware advocate and I'm hungry for blood?
16:17 < kanzure-> or should I not bother explaining that to them since it would take one too many conceptual leaps to explain it?
16:17 < drazak_> it depends on the professors
16:17 < kanzure-> right .. but then should I tell them when we're starting to market an open source hardware product?
16:17 < kanzure-> or when I get on an editorial board for a journal of abundance?
16:17 < kanzure-> or is that something that people don't advertise?
16:17 < kanzure-> *advertize
16:17 < fenn> if you think they're interested
16:17 < kanzure-> damn brits
16:18 < drazak_> you know
16:18 < fenn> if they're not interested you just come off as an arrogant 'me me me' person
16:18 < drazak_> you should run a thinktank publication
16:18 < kanzure-> I don't have a good model of what other people are interested in
16:18 < kanzure-> I just assume I'm interested in mostly everything
16:18 < kanzure-> but this doesn't seem to work for everyone
16:18 < fenn> maybe you're an arrogant 'me me me' person :P
16:18 < kanzure-> well yeah
16:18 < drazak_> people put ideas in for review by others by email or on some sort of thinktank mailing list
16:19 < kanzure-> but what do you want ME to do about it?
16:19 < drazak_> :P
16:19 < kanzure-> drazak_: yet another mailing list?
16:19 < drazak_> kanzure-: yes damnit!
16:19 < kanzure-> http://heybryan.org/mailing_lists.html
16:19 < fenn> time to resurrect hplusroadmap?
16:19 < fenn> not that i ever read it or anything in the past
16:20 < kanzure-> oh, I guess I can now run a mailing list again since I'm back on time warner cable
16:20 < drazak_> well
16:20 < kanzure-> I think I'll try out the giant matrix idea
16:20 < kanzure-> or something
16:21 < fenn> i suggest a hash
16:21 < drazak_> what you do is have people email you ideas that are well formatted and thought out, and then have people be subscribers, and post once a week with all the ideas presented to you, and the emails on the ideaers
16:21 < fenn> or dict.. whatever
16:21 < kanzure-> it would be nice to keep track of who I've been ignoring or something
16:21 < kanzure-> "time to ask treadwell wtf he's up to"
16:21 < fenn> heh
16:21 < kanzure-> I seem to have this pattern of ignoring some people 
16:22 < fenn> bastard never responded to my request for materials property data sources
16:22 < kanzure-> not on purpose of course, but just because I'm not emailing them frequently enough to realize that I've forgotten them
16:22 < kanzure-> for instance, I haven't been talking with tito jankowski much
16:22 < kanzure-> even though we probably have a lot to talk about
16:22 < kanzure-> or not
16:22 < fenn> you can't maintain 100% connectivity with everyone in the universe
16:23 < kanzure-> sure I can. I just need to automate my "checkups" on them or something
16:23 < kanzure-> and then filter for interesting bullshit
16:23 < kanzure-> a simple cron job?
16:23 < fenn> do you think this will uncover significant information that wouldn't otherwise spontaneously show itself?
16:23 < kanzure-> hm
16:24 < kanzure-> so here's how it could work
16:24 < kanzure-> I could keep a log of the different projects that each person has been telling me about
16:24 < kanzure-> I'll write these down in a general note format
16:24 < kanzure-> then when the cron job comes up, it will email each of the people and say something like
16:24 < kanzure-> "last time we talked, you were going on about .. * list here pulled from the file"
16:24 < fenn> heh you probably could actually automate that
16:25 < kanzure-> (I commonly forget what I last told somebody about, so it gets very random if I last told them about me being sent to a home, and now all of the sudden I'm talking about totally different things)
16:25 < fenn> some simple word substitutions so they dont think you're quoting verbatim
16:25 < kanzure-> well, I wouldn't mind manually writing down the notes in some non-verbatim format
16:25 < kanzure-> since I should be keeping track of that shit anyway in the first place :p
16:26 < fenn> pff stupid other peoples projects
16:26 < fenn> nobody does anything cool anyway
16:28 < kanzure-> huh
16:28 < kanzure-> one of the authors of scipy lives in austin
16:28 < kanzure-> treadwell just recommended I go stalk him down to ask him about the CFD software stuff
16:29 < fenn> is he on IM?
16:29 < fenn> (treadwell)
16:29 < kanzure-> no
16:29 < kanzure-> email
16:29 < kanzure-> Travis Oliphant Travis Oliphant
16:29 < kanzure-> Enthought Inc.
16:29 < kanzure-> 1-512-536-1057
16:29 < kanzure-> http://www.enthought.com
16:29 < kanzure-> oliphant@enthought.com
16:29 < fenn> that sounds familiar
16:30 < fenn> then again i'm brain damaged or something
16:31 < kanzure-> he gave a presentation last week
16:31 < kanzure-> http://static.slidesharecdn.com/swf/ssplayer2.swf?doc=numpychacomayavi-090528025000-phpapp01&stripped_title=python-for-scientific-computing-webinar-may-22-2009
16:32 < fenn> oo you mean i get to pay $2500 for a powerpoint presentation? really?
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16:33 < fenn> hi DrTread 
16:33 < DrTread> howdy
16:33 < drazak_> more people from austin :P
16:33 < fenn> DrTread: just curious, did you ever get an email from me about material property databases?
16:33 < DrTread> sorry for my absence. i've been living with my head inside MakerBot for the last month
16:33 < DrTread> hmmmm.... checking....
16:33 < kanzure-> oh hi DrTread
16:34 < kanzure-> thanks for the Travis Oliphant reference
16:34 < DrTread> can't find it, fenn
16:34 < DrTread> you're welcome, kanzure
16:34 < fenn> hm. well that lends support to my 'academic people never get my emails' hypothesis
16:34 < DrTread> pfffft. 
16:35 < fenn> also 'academic people delete my emails on sight' hypothesis
16:35  * fenn shrugs
16:35 < kanzure-> people actually delete emails?
16:35 < DrTread> i can't find the pair of forceps i just put down 15 seconds ago, why should i be able to find your emails? 
16:35 < DrTread> :)
16:36 < kanzure-> DrTread: there are a few people who have been thinking about building a desk that tracks where you put shit
16:36 < kanzure-> it's kind of related to the "smart wetlab bench" project
16:36 < DrTread> occasionally delete mass emails. surely, i wouldn't have deleted something so important as this!
16:36 < kanzure-> and also vern's third arm for electronics benches
16:36 < DrTread> fenn, possible keywords?
16:36 < DrTread> lol @ third arm.
16:36 < kanzure-> just call me Dr. Octavious
16:37 < DrTread>  nice idea, if only i could place things as precisely as the robot expects them
16:37 < kanzure-> use hooks
16:37 < kanzure-> then pass a string over a plane and get the tool hooked on it
16:37 < kanzure-> just don't stab yourself :)
16:37 < DrTread> **cuts off hands** **replaces them with hooks**
16:37 < kanzure-> no, I mean, use hooks on the tools
16:37 < kanzure-> then it doesn't have to be precisely positioned
16:37 < DrTread> OH! now you tell me!
16:38 < kanzure-> kind of like how airforce fighters land on a moving landing platform with giant rubber band stopper dealies
16:38 < DrTread> what do i do wif these bloody stumps now?
16:38 < kanzure-> how are you typing
16:38 < DrTread> Pencil in teeth
16:38 < fenn> DrTread: subject was [Open Manufacturing] Re: openmaterials.org (fwd)
16:38 < kanzure-> huh. well. if you rush to the hospital, they can reattach the hands
16:39 < DrTread> too late. fed them to the cats. ;)
16:39 < drazak_> kanzure-: a smart wetlab bench would be awesome
16:39 < drazak_> if expensive
16:39 < DrTread> ah, yes. openmaterials.org
16:39 < DrTread> i have volunteered my services to them
16:39 < DrTread> **looks for reply**
16:39 < kanzure-> drazak_: someone at diybio was thinking about it. they wanted to integrate a camera so that you could do an instant replay to make sure you didn't pipette something already, or whatever
16:39 < drazak_> well, that would be cool, I was thinking rfid and big warnings if you were going to do something dangerous
16:40 < kanzure-> warnings when what happens?
16:40 < DrTread> yes, received a reply from Caterina Mota.
16:40 < fenn> kanzure-: omg that would be so useful
16:40 < fenn> seriously i dont know how many times i had that problem
16:40 < kanzure-> it's like getting lost in a trance and then not knowing what the fuck just happened
16:40 < kanzure-> I don't know how other people deal with it
16:41 < kanzure-> the guy who was counting cells by hand through the 'scope too .. how do you make sure you don't count the same cell twice?
16:41 < DrTread> WOW! the solution to where i just put those forceps! Just yesterday I found the last of the MakerBot parts I lost whilst assembling it.
16:41 < fenn> DrTread: er.. but, do you know any sources of unencumbered materials data?
16:41 < kanzure-> imagej is better at that task :)
16:41 < DrTread> the JANF tables are pretty much unencumbered.
16:41 < DrTread> JANAF
16:41 < kanzure-> the who?
16:42 < drazak_> kanzure-: a HUD/camera that follows the eye and notices where it stops and puts a red dot there
16:42 < fenn> journal of analytical something something
16:42 < DrTread> Joint Army Navy AirForce materials properties tables. BIG book
16:42 < kanzure-> drazak_: wait, what? I was thinking of something that would just record the lab bench in general
16:42 < kanzure-> but why follow the eye?
16:42 < drazak_> well for counting cells
16:42 < kanzure-> oh
16:42 < kanzure-> okay
16:42 < kanzure-> I do notice that when I'm pipetting over hundreds of tubes, my eyes start to block out everything else
16:43 < kanzure-> and I just focus on the current tube that I'm working with
16:43 < kanzure-> it's an interesting state of mind
16:43 < drazak_> it'd be a microscope eyepiece 
16:43 < kanzure-> it's kind of like when reading and you lose your place
16:43 < DrTread> http://openlibrary.org/b/OL4693854M/JANAF-thermochemical-tables.
16:43 < kanzure-> eyemarks: so you never "lose your place" again
16:43 < DrTread> a pipetting robot would be nice.
16:44 < kanzure-> well yes that too
16:44 < kanzure-> or just integrate everything on to the same chip so that you don't have to pipette anything at all
16:44 < fenn> pipetting robot would certainly fix a much broader range of problems
16:44 < drazak_> kanzure-: ooh, glasses that have a HUD for hilighting
16:44 < kanzure-> human error is pretty broad
16:44 < DrTread> yes. i've always loved the concept of "normal accidents"
16:44 < kanzure-> btw, someone told me yesterday about some money that he has put into a HUD glasses thingy
16:45 < fenn> DrTread: do you think an average university library would have JANAF tables?
16:45 < kanzure-> some cheap inexpensive screen glasses that he's coming out with "soon"
16:45 < DrTread> yes. Average, you mean like UT?
16:45 < fenn> yeah
16:45 < DrTread> ;)
16:45 < kanzure-> fenn: http://lib.utexas.edu/ might have it listed on the "online databases" section
16:45  * fenn wonders if he's going to have to OCR this
16:46 < DrTread> they're up to their 30th edition now. so almost any technical library should have one or many
16:46 < fenn> this has stuff like tensile strength of alloys right?
16:47 < DrTread> yes. absolutely.
16:48 < DrTread> most of it is metals information, welding, heat treating, strengths, IIRC, altho there's lots of thermochemical data aimed at combustion & explosions. you know, military stuff
16:50 < DrTread> i'm trying to clean up my office this weekend. how could so much crap accumulate in just 9 months?
16:50 < DrTread> kanzure, i'm still waiting for you to catalog everything in my house for me.
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16:52 < kanzure-> DrTread: maybe next weekend?
16:55 < DrTread> OK, it's a date! ;)
16:56 < DrTread> it's also a 2-year-long job, i'm afraid.
16:56 < DrTread> i'm still trying to organize my resistors. then, move on to capacitors....
16:56  * fenn mumbles something about an inventory robot
16:56 < DrTread> :D At least i have one of those for my books!
16:56 < fenn> DrTread: throw out everything except power resistors and start fresh
16:57 < fenn> at $0.001 each you can't go wrong ordering new ones
16:57 < fenn> then get only reasonable numbers you actually use
16:57 < DrTread> true. but what about all of the rest of the stuff? do i throw out my collection of Si, Ge & ZnS lenses, too?
16:58 < fenn> no of course not
16:58 < DrTread> Photomultiplier tubes? High-voltage power supplies?
16:58  * fenn drools
16:58 < DrTread> Random bits of plumbing?
16:58 < fenn> uh, maybe
16:58 < DrTread> Yeah, i think the last one is a candidate for the dust bin.
16:58 < fenn> did i mention the fab is painfully short of "junk"?
16:59 < DrTread> why, no. no you didn't. need some?
16:59 < fenn> yeah
16:59 < kanzure-> :)
16:59 < kanzure-> oh btw I also have some junk in some boxes to hand off
16:59 < fenn> your junk sucks
16:59 < kanzure-> have you looked yet?
16:59 < DrTread> my car will thank you. it might be nice to get it into the garage some day.
16:59 < fenn> it's all CRT monitors and .. CRT monitors
16:59 < kanzure-> nah, there's some other stuff
16:59 < kanzure-> that I grabbed from the robot group guys
17:00 < DrTread> LOL I threw out my favorite 1950s CRT monitor a few years ago. hated to see it go. very steampunk.
17:00 < fenn> kanzure-: based on what they were showing off, i'm scared to ask
17:00 < kanzure-> it's the good junk :p
17:00 < DrTread> but useless. i did keep some of those new-fangled transistor thingies, however
17:00 < kanzure-> DrTread: did you see what I was thinking of adding to my apartment?
17:01 < DrTread> the blinkey light stuff? yeah
17:01 < kanzure-> no, not blinking lights
17:01 < kanzure-> http://woodysprops.com/005.jpg http://woodysprops.com/037.jpg
17:01 < DrTread> girlz find that geek stuff trez sexxxy
17:01 < kanzure-> ridiculously huge interfaces and custom keyboards
17:01 < kanzure-> giant lever for "ENTER"
17:01 < kanzure-> fenn suggested a radar for detecting incoming enemy missiles
17:01 < kanzure-> however I seem to have no enemies at the moment
17:01 < kanzure-> so that might have to wait
17:02 < drazak_> just remember, in DrTreads house of fab, put nothing back where it was
17:02 < DrTread> North Korea is always a threat.
17:02 < DrTread> as is Captain Hammer!
17:02 < kanzure-> DrTread: in particular, I was thinking of making a console that will display papers from my science paper collection
17:03 < kanzure-> and have giant knobs for manipulating the PDF viewer settings (zoom in/out, page up/down, scroll, etc.)
17:03 < kanzure-> maybe also a few knobs for background color or something
17:03 < kanzure-> it's a machine that goes ping for SCIENCE!
17:03 < DrTread> drazak_ LOL I never put anything in the same place twice. taking a clue from chess, that would be a draw.
17:03 < drazak_> DrTread: :P
17:03 < fenn> so i was thinking we could have a recirculating pile of communal junk
17:03 < DrTread> kanzure- it's called a microfiche reader.
17:04 < kanzure-> is that some microfilm thingy?
17:04 < drazak_> yes
17:04 < DrTread> yes.
17:04 < kanzure-> fenn: why not just keep it in the fablab?
17:04 < fenn> right
17:04 < fenn> by recirculating i meant to convey the image of convection
17:05 < drazak_> kanzure-: I can get my hands on some microfilm if you want
17:05 < kanzure-> drazak_: can you give me a reason to want microfilm?
17:05 < DrTread> my junk pile let me down today. i needed a 16 mm Teflon rod. i thought i had a 1" rod, so n/p, right? turns out it is a 1-1/2 inch OD, 1 inch ID tube. fail
17:05 < fenn> with a fluidized bed, the big pieces of junk would surface to the top and be easily removed
17:06 < fenn> that condenses the most information/utility into the smallest space
17:06 < DrTread> oh, i like that idea. like ore flotation.
17:07 < fenn> you know, i could kill two birds with one stone by disassembling/cataloging drtread's junk for campbell
17:08 < DrTread> happily, Small Parts Inc., via Amazon.com to the next-day-air-for-$3.9-extra rescue! 
17:08 < fenn> beats the hell out of disassembling toasters
17:08 < kanzure-> heh
17:08 < DrTread> that's JUNQUE with a Q!
17:08 < kanzure-> now you're optimizing :)
17:08 < fenn> combinatorics
17:08 < kanzure-> the correct phrase is 
17:08 < kanzure-> combinatorics, bitches
17:08 < DrTread> :O
17:09 < drazak_> no no, combinatorics, biatches
17:09 < DrTread> yesterday, i calculated that the upper bound on tweets during my lifetime is 10^15.
17:09 < fenn> bitches, combinatorics!
17:09 < kanzure-> DrTread: why did you do that
17:10 < DrTread> and that of those, no more than 10^3 are likely to be truly useful to me.
17:10 < DrTread> i need a 1:10^12 reduction filter.
17:10 < fenn> how many dB is that?
17:10 < DrTread> 120 dB
17:11 < DrTread> one of my tweeple is a semiotician
17:11 < kanzure-> on that note,
17:11 < DrTread> we were discussing txt filters
17:11 < kanzure-> I've started to notice that the good papers that I read all follow a similar pattern in their title
17:11 < DrTread> oh?
17:11 < kanzure-> or use similar words or something
17:11 < kanzure-> yes
17:12 < kanzure-> especially those with the words "direct", "evidence", "confirmation", "manipulation", "influences", "modifies", "regulates", ..
17:12 < kanzure-> :p
17:12 < fenn> confirmation bias?
17:12 < kanzure-> probably
17:12 < DrTread> got a rule that will fit in a Regular Expression?
17:12 < kanzure-> heh
17:12 < kanzure-> um
17:13 < kanzure-> no, but I'm sure a lexical parser could be written
17:13 < fenn> unfortunately regex is bad for natural language processing
17:13 < fenn> there should be some kind of 'sloppy regex'
17:13 < kanzure-> this goes back to my dreams of automatically searching through the literature for the islands of regularity and connectivity
17:13 < DrTread> Too bad i don't talk with a Lisp
17:13 < kanzure-> so that I don't have to discover subsets of science that I should have known about years ago, and instead learn it sooner
17:14 < fenn> can't you use web of science?
17:14 < fenn> science citation index*
17:14 < kanzure-> yes of course
17:14 < fenn> you just need some good graph visualization software
17:14 < kanzure-> but that doesn't help you explore stuff you don't already know about
17:14 < kanzure-> I need some data to visualize as a graph in the first place
17:14 < DrTread> that's why i like searching through paper indices
17:14 < fenn> scrape, bitches!
17:15 < kanzure-> scrape what
17:15 < kanzure-> it's not a top-down directory
17:15 < fenn> web of science
17:15 < kanzure-> but you need to give it queries
17:15 < fenn> well, seed it with your paper collection
17:15 < kanzure-> okay
17:16  * fenn wonders how many years this will take
17:16 < DrTread> my brain is a darned good filter for the possibly interesting, just not 120 dB worth of filtering.
17:16 < kanzure-> fenn: two until I convince myself it's worth doing
17:16 < kanzure-> and then a weekend of perl hacking
17:16 < kanzure-> a weekend of cringing over the fact that it's in perl
17:16 < kanzure-> and then a weekend wondering why my connection is so slow
17:16 < DrTread> wow, you're quick.
17:16 < kanzure-> DrTread: I wrote the script to download Nature in a weekend ..
17:16 < fenn> Citation Map Visualizing citation data in the Web of Science 
17:16 < kanzure-> scraping isn't hard, it's the other stuff that is hard
17:17 < DrTread> LOL I wrote a script to search eBay for about 1000 rare minerals
17:17 < fenn> then you discovered the 'save search' feature?
17:17 < DrTread> speaking of, that script has suffered bit rot. must rewrite...
17:18 < kanzure-> a month ago I was working on my firefox plugin to keep track of google scholar queries. I have confirmed that it sucks to work with XUL.
17:18 < DrTread> LOL... it optimized the searches, condensing words with asterisks wherever possible.
17:18 < DrTread> still, 1000 minerals made a lot of saved searches.
17:18 < DrTread> my biggest problem is the mineral "Samsonite". I can't figure out how to filter out all of the luggage!
17:19 < fenn> or kryptonite
17:19 < DrTread> Nooooo! That makes me sooooo weak!!!!
17:19 < DrTread> and keeps my bike from being stolen
17:20 < fenn> the would-be bike thieves just can't muster the effort to break your lock
17:20 < DrTread> oh sh*t... there are my calipers under my keyboard
17:20 < DrTread> locks only keep one safe from the the marginally honest
17:21 < fenn> what about a REALLY BIG LOCK
17:21 < DrTread> and the forceps are behind the calipers on my keyboard tray.
17:21 < fenn> a chain the size of your forearm and ten times as heavy
17:21 < fenn> to complement your carbon fiber frame
17:23 < DrTread> like this: http://www.daleyblog.com/weblog/images/fortress-lock-tm.jpg
17:24 < DrTread> a materials scientist friend of mine had a discussion with a bike salesman about whether or not a particular bike was made of pure Scandium. 
17:25 < fenn> sounds unlikely
17:25 < fenn> used in aluminum alloys?
17:26 < DrTread> yep. Al + 0.1 to 0.5% Sc
17:26 < DrTread> doesn't take much.
17:40 < DrTread> looking for a #73 drill bit. my usual sources are out. building my own MakerBot extruder, so a #72 or a #76 will have to do.
17:43 < fenn> i imagine a range of sizes to play with would be useful
17:46 < DrTread> indeed. I have a #71; can't find #74-#75. At least not at the moment. I shall continue to rummage thru the Junque stash.
17:48 < DrTread> and of course, buying only 1 at a time leads to frustration. if you look at a #74 funny it'll break.
17:48 < fenn> i guess i dont understand what guido is trying to do with his 'ipod pcr usb gadget'
17:49 < fenn> DrTread: just do a sane feed per rev and it'll work fine
17:49 < fenn> diameter/100 or so
17:49 < DrTread> just handling them is risky, and they best run @ 10 000 RPM or more
17:50 < fenn> well you have to turn the workpiece, not the drill bit
17:50 < DrTread> right. in lathe
17:50 < fenn> maybe it doesnt matter for the nozzle
17:51 < DrTread> well, the nozzle is a nice brass hex. easy to hold in jaws.
17:51 < fenn> people make babington burners by epoxying in a bit of wire and pulling out the wire
17:51 < DrTread> cool idea!
17:52 < DrTread> so long as the wire is properly deburred. maybe i could cut then dissolve burrs in acid or electrolytically.
17:53 < fenn> just yank on it til it breaks?
17:54 < fenn> you're probably over thinking it
17:54 < DrTread> maybe. face shield + welder's apron + kevlar gloves + hydraulic ram + jig + ???
17:54 < DrTread> breaking hardened steel wire is not my idea of fun.
17:55 < DrTread> of course, steel wire dissolves....
17:55 < DrTread> maybe a string of cotton candy would be easier? ;)
17:55 < fenn> wire brushes have lots of loose bits of hardened steel wire
17:55 < fenn> with sharp tips
17:56 < fenn> might not be small enough though
17:56 < fenn> nevermind, just drill it
17:57 < DrTread> i'm thinking those are rather large, 0.02" or so?
17:57 < DrTread> or even larger
17:57 < DrTread> yes. drill. good.
17:59 < DrTread> but first, i need a brass hex cap that's got a small thin spot @ the tip. how to thin it down to 0.05" so that the drill can handle the cut. Patience, and a good supply of brass hex.
18:00 < fenn> measure the hole depth in the cap, cut off excess?
18:00 < fenn> you have a depth indicator for the lathe? i suppose you could use calipers
18:00 -!- kardan_ [n=kardan@p54BE6845.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
18:00 < fenn> not like .05" is hard to measure
18:01 < DrTread> no, not really, even for an inside measurement.
18:02 < DrTread> but i don't want to take it out of the lathe to measure it if i don't have to. screws up concentricity.
18:03 < DrTread> will think about best work flow.
18:04 < fenn> i guess i assumed you could measure it while held in the chuck jaws, but your chuck is pretty small eh? so can't do that
18:04 < DrTread> oh, it's large enough. no problem there.
18:06 < DrTread> what i think i'll do is counterbore & thread, then drill out a smaller spot with a #50 bit or so from one end, then measure the depth and overall length of the hex.
18:07 < DrTread> then flip it around & face the end until the thinnest part should be 0.05". The DRO should be able to tell me within 0.002".
18:08 < DrTread> Then put the micro chuck in the tailstock & drill the #72 hole. Easy!
18:09 < DrTread> must make allowance for conical shape of #50 drill bit tip, of course.
18:10 < DrTread> **looks at end of depth gauge on calipers**
18:11 < fenn> isn't that what i just said?
18:11  * fenn mumbles about lack of machining process language
18:12 < DrTread> yes, probably was. not like i'm an expert, either. just a geek with a lathe in his garage.
18:12 < fenn> arent we all
18:13 < DrTread> end of depth gauge on calipers is 0.089" on diagonal, so I'll use a #43 drill.
18:14 < DrTread> Yep, so say we all.
18:16 -!- kardan| [n=kardan@p54BE7449.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
18:17 < DrTread> Anybody built a CNC package from hobbycnc.com? I'm thinking $7-8k from my lathe's manufacturer is a bit steep.
18:18 < DrTread> $400 starting point seems much more reasonable.
18:18 < DrTread> but not turnkey
18:22 < fenn> agreed
18:22 < fenn> hobbycnc is crap
18:22 < fenn> xylotex is slightly better crap, but the general consensus is to get geckos
18:22 < fenn> there is new a "low price" $39/axis gecko
18:24 < fenn> personally i'm going with servos even if it means i have to make everything from scratch
18:24 < fenn> steppers just suck too much
18:25 < DrTread> hmmm...servos require more zen than steppers
18:27 < fenn> tell me about zen when your stepper skips a few steps in the middle of a ten hour job
18:31 < kanzure-> zen steppers?
18:31 < DrTread> true that! OK, so geckos require one controller per axis. recommendations for motors?
18:31 < DrTread> no. steppers have no zen.
18:33 < fenn> automationdirect if you just want to throw money at it and be done
18:33 < fenn> or you can spend eternity on ebay
18:36 < DrTread> quote from one of my yahoo groups: "You may want to check out the DIY-CNC group if you plan to move forward. The road is not as easy or cheap as you might think at first."
18:36 < fenn> this is true
18:36 < fenn> then again you just spent $700 on a plywood box
18:36 < fenn> excuse me "cnc machine"
18:36 < DrTread> true. but it's very cute.
18:37 < DrTread> and it has gotten me over my activation barrier.
18:40 < DrTread> ok, just joined DIY-CNC.
18:40 < DrTread> just what i need: more bacon in my inbox. :(
18:40 < kanzure-> http://heybryan.org/mailing_lists.html
18:40 < kanzure-> link to the DIY-CNC list please?
18:40 < DrTread> mmmmm..... bacon..... speaking of, it's time for dinner.
18:41 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit ["leaving"]
18:41 < DrTread> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DIY-CNC/
18:41 < fenn> (psst i think he meant bacn)
18:42 < kanzure-> hm yet another mailing list
18:42 < DrTread> yes, yes. **rolls eyes**
18:42 < fenn> spamlike crunchy bits you might want after all
18:42 < kanzure-> cheap-pcr-development
18:42 < kanzure-> wtf why is hessel, cline, cowell, etc. already on this list
18:42 < fenn> hey someone should start a diy-* aggregator list
18:42 < kanzure-> this is a scam
18:42 < fenn> filter out all the politics and bullshit and just forward hardcore engineering progress
18:43 < fenn> kanzure-: history tells me they are starting a company :(
18:43 < kanzure-> it would be too depressing because nothing would go through
18:43 < fenn> hahahahahaa
18:43 < kanzure-> http://groups.google.com/group/cheap-pcr-development
18:44 < fenn> well at least i wouldnt have to spend all my time reading mailing lists then
18:44 < fenn> (not like i have to, but it's a good distraction/excuse)
18:45 < DrTread> if you have your 120 dB information filter inline
18:45 < kanzure-> why is hessel the "group owner"
18:45 < fenn> You cannot view the group's content or participate in the group because you are not currently a member.  Members must be approved before joining.
18:45 < fenn> too much bother
18:45 < DrTread> kanzure- seems to have such a filter. mine is only 80 dB or so. that's a factor of 10 000.
18:46 < fenn> i'll make my own damn cheap pcr
18:46 < kanzure-> so
18:46 < kanzure-> originally when I first got involved with diybio, I thought that there was some conspiracy or something
18:46 < kanzure-> because everyone talked like they were in a company with each other already
18:46 < fenn> which conspiracy?
18:46 < kanzure-> but I couldn't prove it
18:46 < kanzure-> well it just seemed like they all hated me or something
18:47 < DrTread> it's the bilderberger group & the trilateral commission.
18:47 < kanzure-> in a way that suggested that they were doing something they weren't telling me about
18:47 < fenn> dude, 'crowdsourcing' its the new web 2.0 capitalist oppression
18:47 < DrTread> too much money involved, really. why cure cancer if you can't make a billion off of it?
18:47 < DrTread> i blame Bob Dole.
18:48 < fenn> that's funny because hessel is mister 'open source cancer cures'
18:48 < fenn> i blame evan bayh
18:48 < DrTread> unintended consequence of giving universities patent rights to federally funded discoveries.
18:48 < fenn> actually i blame reagan for killing the space program
18:49 < fenn> well if this page ever loads it has steppers on it http://web5.automationdirect.com/adc/Overview/Catalog/Motion_Control/Stepper_Systems/Motors_-z-_Cables
18:49 < fenn> for something like $30
18:49 < DrTread> i blame Lee Harvey Oswald for killing the space program.
18:50 < DrTread> didn't you just say to go servo?
18:50 < fenn> yes
18:50 < fenn> i didnt expect you to actually do that though
18:50 < fenn> because there's currently no cheap solution in existence (this is one of my projects that never gets done)
18:51 < fenn> oh you might be able to use a mesa 7i22 and some l298's
18:51 < fenn> with emc2
18:51 < fenn> hm google doesnt find 7i22
18:53 < DrTread> how about servo with quadrature feedback?
18:53 < fenn>  The MESA 7I43 is a low cost, general purpose programmable I/O card that connects to the host computer via USB or PC parallel port. The 7I43 uses a 200K or 400K gate Xilinx FPGA for all logic
18:53 < fenn> you have to use parallel port with emc though
18:54 < DrTread> parallel port? that's the one thing my Junque bin does NOT contain.
18:54 < fenn> too bad, you need it for CNC
18:54 < DrTread> oh, wait. yes. an ethernet to parallel converter.
18:54 < fenn> 7i43 is $89
18:54 < DrTread> nevermind.
18:54 < fenn> and you need a real parport, not some junky adapter crap
18:54 < DrTread> **sulks**
18:55 < DrTread> the world has run on USB for 15 years.
18:55 < fenn> just get a pci parport card for $10 on ebay
18:55 < fenn> USB is not suited for machine control
18:55 < DrTread> **jams pci port into Mac Pro tower**
18:55 < fenn> too much latency and jitter, and too many drivers
18:56 < fenn> Mac Pro running a CNC? what?
18:56 < DrTread> you're right. too simple for the computer.
18:56 < fenn> more like, computer too complicated for the task
18:56 < DrTread> true.
18:57 < DrTread> latency is only a problem is the driver board doesn't have onboard memory.
18:57 < DrTread> dumb drivers are sooooo 20th century
18:57 < fenn> hrmph
18:57 < DrTread> take my Cupcake CNC MakerBot, for instance...
18:58 < fenn> a paragon of engineering quality
18:58 < DrTread> 2 GiB SD card.
18:58 < fenn> wait a minute
18:58 < DrTread> a paragon of open source engineering quality. ;)
18:59 < fenn> oh don't get me started.. that thing is a piece of shit
18:59 < fenn> anyway back to cnc controls
18:59 < DrTread> right.
18:59 < fenn> the bits have to hit metal at some point
18:59 < fenn> now either that happens in a microcontroller, or a realtime PC
18:59 < DrTread> Yes. Microcontroller will do just fine, I think.
19:00 < fenn> thing is, CNC control turns out to be a lot harder than most people imagine when they sit down and start writing microcontroller code
19:00 < fenn> so, my advice, is to get an old pentium 4 desktop computer with a parallel port
19:00 < fenn> and install emc2 on it
19:00 < DrTread> oh, ok. why reinvent the wheel, eh?
19:01 < DrTread> but at some point, technology must move on. will parallel cards be available in 5 years?
19:01 < fenn> yes, as an add-on
19:01 < fenn> there are PCIe parport cards
19:01 < DrTread> oh, ok.
19:02 < fenn> and maybe by then we will have ported emc2 to something reasonable like arm9
19:03 < fenn> $10 for a cnc control isnt too much is it?
19:03 < fenn> i wish i knew more about computers
19:03 < fenn> then i could just port it myself
19:04 < DrTread> not at all. :) i'm sure someone will do it for us.
19:04 < DrTread> Port to the Nintendo DSi
19:04 < fenn> swpadnos says he will do it if someone pays him
19:04 < DrTread> $5
19:05 < fenn> maybe if we wait long enough he'll just do it
19:06 < DrTread> ok. i'll go make dinner. will he be finished before i get back? :p
19:06 < kanzure-> fenn: http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/pcr-stuff.html
19:06 < kanzure-> joseph jackson has some nice comments near the bottom
19:07 < kanzure-> andrew hessel also weighs in at some point
19:08 < fenn> politics, politics, politics...
19:09 < kanzure-> I wonder how anybody gets anything done like this
19:09 < kanzure-> it's like the blind leading the blind, or something
19:10 < fenn> wtf, they're afraid someone will steal their super neato idea?
19:10 < kanzure-> I'm so confused
19:11 < fenn> me too
19:12 < fenn> looks like me and hessel are on the same page
19:12 < kanzure-> ok, do people really think this is how you get stuff done?
19:12 < kanzure-> fenn: joseph's comments later are the only other thing worth reading really
19:13 < DrTread> nope. this is not how you get stuff done. it's how you lead others away from your real ideas so you can make lots of money by inventing everything new yourself.
19:14 < fenn> i really doubt that
19:14 < kanzure-> DrTread: have you seen this happen before?
19:15 < kanzure-> why is it that these people think that they are making progress by hiding everything from the people that actually get shit done?
19:15 < DrTread> :) all the time.
19:15 < fenn> i mean these guys dont have the technical competence to invent anything, new or used
19:15 < kanzure-> heh
19:15 -!- xp_prg [n=xp_prg3@98.234.52.78] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"]
19:15 < DrTread> it's the patent attorneys' doing.
19:16 < fenn> DrTread: hey, where do they teach you about patents n stuff?
19:16 < kanzure-> in federal found-me-in-the-ass prison
19:16 < kanzure-> *pound
19:16 < kanzure-> or found. either way.
19:17 < fenn> i dont like how it's all just a big sort of intimidation factory
19:17 < DrTread> kanzure- i didn't know you knew of such things!
19:17 < kanzure-> I don't
19:17 < DrTread> yes. what fenn said.
19:17 < fenn> he saw it on a movie
19:17 < DrTread> LOL
19:18 < DrTread> follow the money. the ones making the money are the best patent attys & the corporations who can hire them
19:19 < DrTread> ok. i'm ssrly hungry now. microwaving dinner.
19:19 < kanzure-> I'd rather just follow the machinery ..
19:19 < kanzure-> why is it that people assume that making up secret groups is the best way to get stuff done
19:22 < kanzure-> although I guess I can use the experience with the sata lab as catalysis
19:22 < kanzure-> gene's device wasn't particularly designed using reasoning
19:22 < kanzure-> but for some reason we're going forward with it?
19:22 < kanzure-> has any actual work occurred anywhere here?
19:23 < kanzure-> someone once told me that all real work that happens in the world is because somebody sat down and solved system of partial differential equations for a project, and everything else is just bullshit
19:23 < fenn> $100k to make some $10 thermocyclers.. someone can't do math
19:23 < kanzure-> *solved a system of partial differential equations
19:24 < kanzure-> the work to profit ratio is out of alignment apparently
19:24 < fenn> that's not profit, that's research costs
19:24 < drazak_> we don't need any research
19:24 < drazak_> someone just has to build a damned prototype
19:24 < fenn> USB!
19:25 < fenn> um, and lazzors
19:26 < fenn> if i didnt think it would work i wouldnt be reading this crap, of course
19:28 < fenn> TAMU is the triangle heater with teflon tube wrapped in a spiral around it right?
19:29 < kanzure-> don't know if it was a spiral or not
19:29 < fenn> here's my idea for a usb lazer pcr machine
19:30 < fenn> batch-based pcr segment, i dont care how you do it. probably a spiral microfluidic 4-quadrant heater/peltier thingy
19:30 < fenn> then when that's done it goes into a straw shaped single lane gel cartridge
19:31 < kanzure-> sure
19:31 < kanzure-> where's the laser
19:31 < kanzure-> you promised me a laser
19:31 < fenn> the gel runs and a UV led + photodiode reads the absorbance spectrum as the dna goes by
19:31 < fenn> oops s/led/laser/
19:31 < kanzure-> there actually may be a way to do it without a gel, and instead an array of tiny little posts
19:31 < fenn> but that's expensive and vaporware nanotech crap
19:31 < kanzure-> huh? no?
19:32 < fenn> we have gels, we can make gels with grocery store items
19:32 < kanzure-> the pegs could be fabricated while you're making yer spiral
19:32 < kanzure-> s/fabricated/photolithographized/
19:32 < fenn> no, the spiral isnt that small
19:32 < fenn> spiral only needs 20-30 turns; that can be done with laser printer toner and shrinky dink or silicone or whatever
19:32 < kanzure-> huh, I wonder if you could just immobilize an array of beads instead of posts
19:33 < fenn> heh like <drumroll> a gel chromatography column?
19:33 < kanzure-> oh crap
19:34 < fenn> anyway agarose works with short dna fragments, which i can't say for relatively low rez microfluidics thingies
19:34 < kanzure-> it's kind of sad that nobody on diybio has bothered to make the uv led spectrophotometer device yet
19:34 < fenn> oh i have paper access now so i can look up my paper request
19:35 < fenn> for dna vs uv absorbance
19:35 < kanzure-> what paper request?
19:35 < kanzure-> oh, I thought we found that for you at 300 nm?
19:35 < kanzure-> or something
19:35 < fenn> i suppose the easiest way to do this would be to do the experiment
19:36 < fenn> "keiki gels for real this time"
19:36 < fenn> dammit where's my clone
19:36 < kanzure-> he's over here in the closet
19:36 < kanzure-> he says he wants food
19:36 < fenn> arent you supposed to be harvesting brains?
19:36 < kanzure-> yes
19:36 < kanzure-> sorry, I'll get right on that again
19:37 < fenn> ok we need a technically competent hot young intern who will work on my projects for free and feel grateful for the opportunity
19:37 < fenn> preferably not schizophrenic like last time
19:37 < kanzure-> surely somebody would be interested if they get something like a 10% cut in all of bryan's future earnings :p
19:37 < kanzure-> but they have to be good ..
19:38 < kanzure-> she has to be good, I mean
19:38 < fenn> although the hotness could be a factor in the decision
19:38 < fenn> 10% in all future earnings? that's ridiculous
19:38 < kanzure-> 1%?
19:38 < kanzure-> what is it worth to get shit done
19:38 < fenn> eh. i dont know
19:38 < fenn> its the 'all future earnings' that doesnt sound right
19:39 < kanzure-> oh
19:39 < kanzure-> yeah, that sounds like the same trap that happens in marriage
19:39 < kanzure-> er, anyway
19:39 < fenn> yeah i've had this conversation before
19:40 < fenn> how about a transcriptionist
19:40 < kanzure-> or a personal assistant
19:40 < fenn> or some automated transcription software
19:40 < kanzure-> I am just fine at transcribing
19:40 < fenn> or even just sound recorder
19:40 < kanzure-> what I need is someone to keep track of myself
19:41 < fenn> an Agent
19:41 < kanzure-> nah, sound recording you have to go cycle back through the data
19:41 < fenn> i mean, "an agent"
19:41 < kanzure-> yep, an agent
19:41 < fenn> (agents dont deserve to be capitalized)
19:41 < kanzure-> so it occurs to me that maybe where we're going wrong is that we're letting all this bullshit "business" get involved
19:41 < kanzure-> maybe that's where things are fucking up?
19:41 < fenn> get involved where?
19:41 < fenn> everywhere?
19:41 < kanzure-> yes
19:41 < DrTread> Wow. Aparently I missed some important stuff!
19:41 < fenn> i can't wipe my ass without someone calculating estimated return on investment
19:42 < fenn> DrTread: just the usual scheming
19:42 < DrTread> so i see.
19:42 < DrTread> what is the estimate of kanzure's future earnings? $1B?
19:42 < kanzure-> maybe if we cleanse ourselves of contacts with businessfolks, we could focus on other things?
19:42 < DrTread> so 1% is $10M?
19:42 < kanzure-> or at least for myself
19:42 < fenn> depends how long he lives and whether money exists beyond 2050
19:43 < kanzure-> for someone who doesn't like money much, you're sure predicting I'll make a lot of it :p
19:43 < DrTread> i'm not going to need much money by 2050, if i'm typical.
19:43 < fenn> kanzure-: like getting a job in R&D at a megacorp?
19:43 < fenn> or a minicorp?
19:43 < kanzure-> I doubt that would make me a billionaire
19:43 < fenn> as 'lead consultant kanzure industries' or something
19:43 < kanzure-> unless I misunderstand something
19:44 < kanzure-> heh lead consultant kanzure industries
19:44 < DrTread> you could design a disk operating system for the Osborne computer
19:44 < kanzure-> *10,000 emails a day of ranting*
19:44 < fenn> kanzure-: i've talked with les about the whole agent thing, and apparently they don't exist or are extremely rare
19:44 < fenn> and this is for just selling furniture stuffs
19:45 < fenn> "i'm not going to need much money by 2050, if i'm typical" meaning what?
19:46 < kanzure-> he plans to fail at life extension
19:46 < fenn> boo
19:46 < kanzure-> immortality or bust
19:46 < fenn> what about your pet sentient corporation-grandkids?
19:46 < kanzure-> ?
19:46 < fenn> they have to eat money or they'll starve
19:46 < fenn> vanish in a puff of smoke
19:48 < fenn> kanzure-: i think a lot of the problem is people with "drive" also have a lot of "experience" they've accumulated on earth, and as a consequence have soaked up a lot of business worldview
19:48 < kanzure-> what?
19:48 < kanzure-> but why doesn't that drive them to just build shit instead of doing the bullshit raindance?
19:49 < fenn> so then it's a choice between people who understand what you are trying to do, and people who have the wherewithal to do it
19:49 < fenn> because they are caught up in business stuff instead of building it
19:50 < fenn> maybe we need a buddy system
19:50 < DrTread> speaking of... check out this guy: http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1153299926232
19:50 < kanzure-> buddy system?
19:50 < fenn> take a business person and a free love and happiness person, put them in a dark hole full of technar and see what happens
19:50 < kanzure-> you mean, a patron?
19:51 < fenn> patrons dont exist, as far as i can see
19:51 < fenn> mythical creature, black swan
19:51 < DrTread> i'm afraid that's a bit naïve. as they say, "the business of business is business." nothing more, nothing less.
19:51 < fenn> DrTread: you're speaking in riddles
19:51 < kanzure-> maybe I should stop assuming that anybody gets anything done in the world
19:52 < kanzure-> but then how do you explain the machines that you see all over the place?
19:52 < fenn> kanzure-: it would explain why we're living in the past
19:52 < fenn> no jetpacks, etc
19:52 < kanzure-> but then why do giant cnc machines exist?
19:52 < fenn> because it's 1940's technology
19:52 < kanzure-> and super awesome factories?
19:52 < kanzure-> so?
19:52 < fenn> pff
19:52 < fenn> 'super awesome'?
19:52 < kanzure-> it's not like time changes whether or not something is possible
19:52 < fenn> have you actually been to any factories?
19:52 < kanzure-> eh, just car factories unfortunately
19:53 < kanzure-> and a few semiconductor fabs but not really
19:53 < fenn> discovery channel specials do not present an unbiased selection of reality
19:53 < kanzure-> so? those places still exist .. somewhere.
19:53 < kanzure-> and somehow they happened.
19:53 < fenn> i'm inclined to believe it's all a sham
19:54 < DrTread> Giant machines all exist because they were needed for the War Effort.
19:54 < fenn> and there's a guy next to the robot fixing each part where the robot messed up
19:54 < fenn> wasnt there a factory they built next to the car factory to disassemble/fix/reassemble the cars coming out?
19:54 < DrTread> IC chips exist for the same reason.
19:55 < fenn> DrTread: good point
19:55 < fenn> what we need is a War on Poverty :D
19:56 < kanzure-> people still buy new machines for some reason though
19:56 < kanzure-> in spite of the war
19:56 < kanzure-> so that doesn't explain it
19:56 < kanzure-> er, in spite of the lack of a war
19:57 < kanzure-> I guess you could claim that during the time of war was when all of the real work was done
19:59 < fenn> yeah pretty much
19:59 < DrTread> we had  a war on poverty. the Johnson administration's "Guns & Butter" campaign.
19:59 < DrTread> didn't work.
19:59 < fenn> because it was a joke?
19:59 < fenn> 'guns and butter' for real?
19:59 < DrTread> only partially.
19:59 < DrTread> yes 4 realz
20:01 < kanzure-> I guess I don't really believe that nothing can really get done without a war being present
20:01 < DrTread> of course, as Herman Goering said, "Guns will make us powerful; butter will only make us fat." Except he said it in German.
20:01 < fenn> goering was a fatass
20:01 < kanzure-> so I guess it's back to my roadmap plans for artificial in vitro meat, nuclear family dna synthesizer+sequencer combo, etc.
20:01 < DrTread> indeed!
20:01 < kanzure-> fenn: you showing up?
20:02 < fenn> ug
20:02 < kanzure-> ug ug
20:02 < fenn> should i drag my assortment of earthly posessions?
20:02 < fenn> i.e. car
20:03 < kanzure-> um, that's up to you
20:03 < kanzure-> that probably didn't help
20:03  * fenn commits to being undecided
20:04 < fenn> "opportunity cost. In a theoretical economy with only two goods, a choice must be made between how much of each good to produce. As an economy produces more guns (military spending) it must reduce its production of butter (food), and vice versa. 
20:04 < DrTread> isn't Wikipedia grand?
20:05 < fenn> hm that came from 'investopedia'
20:05 < DrTread> ah.
20:06 < kanzure-> fenn: you might as well bring over your stuff.
20:06 < DrTread> it sounded too high-fallutin for WP
20:06 < kanzure-> since it's not much apparently
20:11 < kanzure-> why can't I be a *rich* evil angry mad scientist, instead of just a relatively tool-less guy?
20:12 < kanzure-> maybe I'll go make some islands a la Lex Luthor
20:12 < fenn> i told you stark was a super villain didnt i
20:13 < kanzure-> methods of geoengineering novel continents 
20:13 < kanzure-> bah, come on google scholar, work for me!
20:17 < DrTread> just don't use protomatter to make your islands. sure, it's quick, but the terraformed islands quickly become unstable.
20:17 < kanzure-> I'm thinking artificial volcanoe creation plus artificial triggering
20:17 < fenn> how about geopolymer + pneumatically stabilized platforms
20:18 < kanzure-> geopolymer?
20:18 < fenn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geopolymer
20:18 < fenn> like cement + dirt
20:19 < fenn> hmm and some sort of bio generated tensile strength component is probably necessary too
20:20 < fenn> hemp fibers for instance
20:20 < fenn> but a marine organism would be better
20:20 < kanzure-> yes
20:20 < kanzure-> what about a land mass created out of manure
20:20 < kanzure-> hrm, probably too hazardous
20:21 < kanzure-> and that's probably why trash barges aren't being used to create islands yet
20:21 < DrTread> i thought the entire state of Louisiana was made of trash barges??
20:23 < kanzure-> http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Land_mass
20:24 < DrTread> kanzure- is there anything about which you don't have a file of links?!
20:25 < kanzure-> how to actually get stuff done
20:25 < kanzure-> this is the one secret that has eluded me
20:27 < DrTread> here's the link for that: http://www.brepettis.com/blog/2009/3/3/the-cult-of-done-manifesto.html
20:27 < kanzure-> but bre doesn't actually know anything
20:28 < kanzure-> or do much either..
20:29 < kanzure-> this also seems to encourage people to do things wrong
20:29 < kanzure-> if you're going to do it, you might as well do it right
20:29 < DrTread> but bre has gobs of personality.
20:29 < kanzure-> and if you don't know, you might as well figure out how
20:29 < kanzure-> so what?
20:30 < DrTread> two words:
20:30 < fenn> bre has enough personality for his own youtube ad campaign
20:30 < DrTread> Britney Spears
20:30 < DrTread> she could be your angel investor.
20:30 < kanzure-> what?
20:30 < DrTread> based solely on her personality's ability to generate cash.
20:31 < kanzure-> but that has nothing to do with getting stuff done
20:31 < kanzure-> you seem to be too tied up in the cult of money
20:31 < DrTread> LOL So why don't i have a job, then?
20:31 < DrTread> a **real** job, that is
20:31 < fenn> money is correlated with getting stuff done but not causative
20:32 < kanzure-> because you're too busy promoting people who have personalities that seem to suggest they don't want money but in fact they really do because they're bullshitting you since they don't actually know anything
20:32 < fenn> in fact it can be downright disruptive most of the time
20:32 < DrTread> hmmmm... true.
20:32 < DrTread> on both counts.
20:32 < DrTread> money seems to have a negative correlation with happiness.
20:33 < kanzure-> yawn
20:33 < kanzure-> not this again
20:33 < fenn> undefinable term
20:33 < fenn> system gaming infinite autocorrective feedback loop
20:33 < DrTread> i don't know what it is, but i know it when i see it.
20:33 < fenn> porn = wisdom
20:34 < kanzure-> "dude, that guy is *wise*!"
20:34 < fenn> wisdom drives technology development
20:34  * fenn shuts up
20:35 < fenn> ugh why am i reading this bre pettis crap
20:36 < fenn> avast! off o my screen ye blarney goat
20:36 < kanzure-> because someone has invaded your feedback loops
20:36 < fenn> i dont have feedback loops, only a series of tubes
20:36 < kanzure-> where do they go?
20:37 < fenn> around
20:37 < kanzure-> urhm, what?
20:37 < DrTread> happiness: http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200906/happiness
20:37 < fenn> ...must.. click.. 
20:38 < fenn> aha, i already read it. beat that, innernet!
20:38 < fenn> it was JFK
20:38 < fenn> multiple gunment, grassy knoll
20:38 < DrTread> one of them was.
20:38 < fenn> ronald reagan was the shooter
20:39 < DrTread> magic bullet, john Connolly was the shooter 
20:39 < DrTread> ricocheted off the windshield...
20:41 < DrTread> connolly had the gun surgically implanted in his wrist, which is why he refused surgery or post mortem
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20:41 < DrTread> scaring myself. this is starting to make too much sense.
20:42 < genehacker> kanzure you there?
20:42 < kanzure-> genehacker: yes
20:42 < genehacker> where are you again?
20:42 < genehacker> you had dinner?
20:42 < kanzure-> no, not yet
20:42 < kanzure-> I'm at the lair
20:43 < genehacker> you want to go get dinner at texadelphia?
20:43 < kanzure-> sure
20:43 < kanzure-> now?
20:43 < genehacker> how soon can you get here?
20:43 < kanzure-> get where?
20:43 < genehacker> I am outside ETC
20:43 < kanzure-> it would take too long for me to get there, sorry
20:44 < genehacker> oh well bye then
20:47 < DrTread> **sigh** another MakerFaire ends without my presence. (and no, i was not going just to see bre)
20:47 < kanzure-> tito claims that he was going to be doing something there
20:48 < kanzure-> but he might just be bullshitting an audience
20:48 < DrTread> a common passtime.
20:49 < fenn> goodbye cruel internets
20:49 < kanzure-> ?
20:49 < fenn> packing up server
20:49 < kanzure-> bring extension cords
20:49 < fenn> i wish
20:50 -!- fenn [n=fenn@cpe-72-177-52-180.austin.res.rr.com] has quit ["aieeeee"]
20:51 < DrTread> i've been tied to teh computorz for too long. must recharge lazorz myselfs
20:51 < DrTread> the question is: beer or scotch?
20:51 < kanzure-> don't those fuck with your receptors?
20:52 < DrTread> they're the little erasers on the blackboard of life.
20:52 < kanzure-> is that racist somehow?
20:56 < DrTread> greenboards? whiteboards? LCD screens?
20:57 < DrTread> scotch it is. :D
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21:54 < fenn> hofstadter's law
21:56 < kanzure-> sounds unfun
21:56 < kanzure-> are you sure you don't mean to invoke murphy's law?
21:57 < fenn> prefer not to
21:57 < fenn> let's see if i can drive 2 blocks without getting arrested
21:58 < kanzure-> didn't know you were that paranoid
21:58 -!- fenn [n=fenn@cpe-72-177-52-180.austin.res.rr.com] has left #hplusroadmap ["yippie kye yie yay"]
22:03 < DrTread> arrested?
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